Thread
Mac Plus Web server
Hi, I've noticed that the only mac plus server still standing (aurejac.dyndns.org) has been offline for months now. 
I don't know if it's dead, but I thought it would be a good idea to replace it in order to keep a mac plus server going.
I have a mac plus, but I can't find an asante en/sc card anywhere in Europe (tried ebay, craiglist, etc). I manage to get an asante pds card for my SE/30. However, there are quite a few Se/30 servers around.
I was wondering if anybody of you have one to donate, sell or borrow (i would return it when you would like) so I could get this project working.
Thanks, Nahuel
I don't know if it's dead, but I thought it would be a good idea to replace it in order to keep a mac plus server going.
I have a mac plus, but I can't find an asante en/sc card anywhere in Europe (tried ebay, craiglist, etc). I manage to get an asante pds card for my SE/30. However, there are quite a few Se/30 servers around.
I was wondering if anybody of you have one to donate, sell or borrow (i would return it when you would like) so I could get this project working.
Thanks, Nahuel
You're too late. The Mac HTTP: project revived the software that made the Mac Plus Web Server possible, so there are probably lots of Pluses and other compacts being used as web servers by now.
any links to those servers? (I've been looking at the old apple web server directory at http://servers.ld8.org/servers.html
I noticed that aurejac had gone down too quite a while back. That Plus used to dish out its web pages from two floppy disks!
As far as I know there aren't any other Pluses being used as webservers at the moment, certainly aurejac was the only one I knew of. There are quite a few SE's, SE/30's and Classics being used as servers these days but not Pluses.
I'd say go for it! The internet will be a better place with more 68K servers! I'm currently thinking about running a IIcx webserver but if I can find an EN/SC adaptor then I may well go the compact route.
As far as I know there aren't any other Pluses being used as webservers at the moment, certainly aurejac was the only one I knew of. There are quite a few SE's, SE/30's and Classics being used as servers these days but not Pluses.
I'd say go for it! The internet will be a better place with more 68K servers! I'm currently thinking about running a IIcx webserver but if I can find an EN/SC adaptor then I may well go the compact route.
Was that the one on eBay UK recently with the steadily decreasing BIN?
Yes I'm planning on doing it exactly the same (that is running it from floppies).
The card was not on ebay by itself, it was as part of an SE/30. So it came all together with 128mb of ram for 30€ if I recall correctly.
The only problem is the network card. I've seen some info about localtalk bridges to ethernet, but I haven't been able to find that either.
So without network card I'm afraid it would be difficult to have it as a webserver. I'll keep looking, and well if anybody has one and wants to contribute say so!
The card was not on ebay by itself, it was as part of an SE/30. So it came all together with 128mb of ram for 30€ if I recall correctly.
The only problem is the network card. I've seen some info about localtalk bridges to ethernet, but I haven't been able to find that either.
So without network card I'm afraid it would be difficult to have it as a webserver. I'll keep looking, and well if anybody has one and wants to contribute say so!
I actually have a Mac Plus and 80 MB SCSI Hard Drive that I set up specifically as a Plus web server. It uses an EN/SC ethernet adapter. Unfortunately, it is extremely slow for some reason. It takes a minute just to send a simple page.
Please check your hardware carefully first. Compact Macs were not designed to be run 24/7, and when designing the compact Mac twenty odd years ago, the designers did not incorporate engineering safety factors for your proposed scenario. In the 1980s, I saw four year old compact Macs blow the analogue board and catch fire.
To run 24/7 safely, you need an analogue board that has been refurbished with *uprated* components. A late, standard Plus or Classic will probably be OK, but at minimum it requires a close visual inspection and a daily "nose" test. Back me up, please, Tom.
To run 24/7 safely, you need an analogue board that has been refurbished with *uprated* components. A late, standard Plus or Classic will probably be OK, but at minimum it requires a close visual inspection and a daily "nose" test. Back me up, please, Tom.
Although the components of an early stock compact are a bit marginal, running 24/7 is not out of the question. A key is keeping the mac cool. Don't obstruct the vents, and make sure that the ambient temperature doesn't get too high.
I've never seen a Mac truly catch fire, but I have seen them smoke a good bit. The four-pin yoke connector on the analog board can get pretty hot when it develops flaky joints. The cardboard cover on the foil side of the board makes intimate contact with the hot joints and can burn. I've been told -- but have not confirmed -- that the cardboard is impregnated with a flame retardant. In any case, I second Charlieman's recommendation for a checkup. I would freshen those solder joints (as well as those of the flyback) as a matter of course. Once that's done, I'd have few qualms about running a Plus all day (again, assuming that it gets adequate cool air). FYI, I now happen to have two on my office desk running continuously. The building is air-conditioned, so that helps a great deal.
I've never seen a Mac truly catch fire, but I have seen them smoke a good bit. The four-pin yoke connector on the analog board can get pretty hot when it develops flaky joints. The cardboard cover on the foil side of the board makes intimate contact with the hot joints and can burn. I've been told -- but have not confirmed -- that the cardboard is impregnated with a flame retardant. In any case, I second Charlieman's recommendation for a checkup. I would freshen those solder joints (as well as those of the flyback) as a matter of course. Once that's done, I'd have few qualms about running a Plus all day (again, assuming that it gets adequate cool air). FYI, I now happen to have two on my office desk running continuously. The building is air-conditioned, so that helps a great deal.
One of the "system saver" fans that sits on top might be a good investment.
I like this idea a lot!
As for the "hot" analogue connections, correct me if I am wrong Tom, but it's the video components of the analogue board that causes most of the heat and stress, right? If that's the case, is there a way to actually disconnect the video from the power and allow the Plus to continue to function? I mean as a dedicated server, it should be able to function totally headless. If the Plus will continue to operate without the presence of the video circuitry, I would think that would mitigate most of the heat produced by the system. Then it should behave no differently from an early PowerBook and run indefinitely.
A simple switch to turn the video power on and off? Maybe just off after the Plus is setup and configured? Then when the Plus is powered off, reset everything to default operation to start-up again?
Most of the later 512Ks and Pluses had vinyl covers instead of the cardboard of the early 128Ks, presumably for this exact reason. Though melting would be a possibility and you don't want to inhale burning vinyl fumes. I understand it was common on the early covers that an adhesive pad was placed directly over a hot high voltage connection as well, further adding to the problem of combustion.
As for the "hot" analogue connections, correct me if I am wrong Tom, but it's the video components of the analogue board that causes most of the heat and stress, right? If that's the case, is there a way to actually disconnect the video from the power and allow the Plus to continue to function? I mean as a dedicated server, it should be able to function totally headless. If the Plus will continue to operate without the presence of the video circuitry, I would think that would mitigate most of the heat produced by the system. Then it should behave no differently from an early PowerBook and run indefinitely.
A simple switch to turn the video power on and off? Maybe just off after the Plus is setup and configured? Then when the Plus is powered off, reset everything to default operation to start-up again?
Well, thanks for all the info. I can't do anything until i get an asante en/sc adapter or something equivalent.
I have three mac pluses to choose. I'm certainly not going to use the one upgraded from a 512k. Then, well i would need information on which joints to check (any webpage on that, perhaps with diagrams) in order to do so.
I have seen continuously running Se/30s with no problem.
It is true the plus has no fan, i don't know if i could get one of those ones that mount on top. Otherwise I suppose I could make one.
I have three mac pluses to choose. I'm certainly not going to use the one upgraded from a 512k. Then, well i would need information on which joints to check (any webpage on that, perhaps with diagrams) in order to do so.
I have seen continuously running Se/30s with no problem.
It is true the plus has no fan, i don't know if i could get one of those ones that mount on top. Otherwise I suppose I could make one.
Plus: SCSI port throughput is 312kb/s (bits, not Bytes). HDD interleave factor was 3:1.
SE: SCSI throughput is 656kb/s. Interleave was 2:1.
Mac II: SCSI throughput is 1250kb/s. Interleave was 1:1.
With newer and faster HDDs the interleave fades in importance. You can't easily do much about the port speed except to make sure that the HDD can keep up with it.
de
That's a great idea. Let me think about the best/easiest way to do this. Disabling the video/sweep circuits on the analog board would greatly increase the longevity of the Plus in the webserver application you're thinking of.
Don't forget the Mac Plus SCSI Accelerator INIT!
I once excitedly ran many tests of that famous init, hoping for a big boost in performance. Sadly, I could never measure any difference at all. It's probable that the drivers installed with system 6 (and possibly some earlier ones) effectively do what that init does.
Mike -- Equill has provided a valuable pointer, as usual. A not uncommon cause of slow SCSI performance on the Plus (beyond its inherent sub-optimal implementation) is to connect a drive that has been formatted at a 2:1 or 1:1 interleave. The Plus can't keep up, and access times can stretch out by a factor of 5 or more, giving you floppy-like performance. If that drive was formatted on another Mac, it is almost certainly the case that the interleave was set to a value that will kill performance on the Plus. For fastest performance, keep the drive defragmented, max out the Plus' ram, disable all unnecessary apps, extensions, and run system 6 if feasible. A Plus can't run system 7 with any grace, but system 6 flies (relatively speaking).
Mike -- Equill has provided a valuable pointer, as usual. A not uncommon cause of slow SCSI performance on the Plus (beyond its inherent sub-optimal implementation) is to connect a drive that has been formatted at a 2:1 or 1:1 interleave. The Plus can't keep up, and access times can stretch out by a factor of 5 or more, giving you floppy-like performance. If that drive was formatted on another Mac, it is almost certainly the case that the interleave was set to a value that will kill performance on the Plus. For fastest performance, keep the drive defragmented, max out the Plus' ram, disable all unnecessary apps, extensions, and run system 6 if feasible. A Plus can't run system 7 with any grace, but system 6 flies (relatively speaking).
The interleave thing might be it. It's an old Quantum 80 MB drive from an LC. I don't remember when I formatted it originally, I think I just did an erase disk thing in the Finder for the Plus.
The drive has System 7 because I could not get the server to really work at all under System 6.
Mike
"Ah!" I hear you say (I have sensitive ears), "How shall I impose this mystical 3:1 interleave factor/ratio?" My knowledge is only of Silverlining, which I use on all drives, but the version that you will need is 5.8.x. The GUI is terse, and does not offer you a hierarchical display of bus, drive and volume(s) as versions 6.x.x do, but hasten slowly and look at the options for old drives/Macs such as you have, and you will get there. Versions 5.8.x are excellent at pulling drives back from the edge of the abyss (eg, mapping out bad blocks), as a result of which many a drive can be rendered serviceable again.
de
"Ah!" I hear you say (I have sensitive ears), "How shall I impose this mystical 3:1 interleave factor/ratio?" My knowledge is only of Silverlining, which I use on all drives, but the version that you will need is 5.8.x. The GUI is terse, and does not offer you a hierarchical display of bus, drive and volume(s) as versions 6.x.x do, but hasten slowly and look at the options for old drives/Macs such as you have, and you will get there. Versions 5.8.x are excellent at pulling drives back from the edge of the abyss (eg, mapping out bad blocks), as a result of which many a drive can be rendered serviceable again.
de
And if you are using HD SC Setup, it will automatically select an interleave appropriate for that particular Mac. There are patched versions of it floating around for use with non-Apple branded drives.
Because your drive was originally formatted on the LC (or so I presume), the interleave is indeed wrong for the Plus. The good news is that you will be happily surprised with the performance boost you have coming. It will never be fast, but it will be much less slow.
Because your drive was originally formatted on the LC (or so I presume), the interleave is indeed wrong for the Plus. The good news is that you will be happily surprised with the performance boost you have coming. It will never be fast, but it will be much less slow.
As tomlee59 writes, Apple's software does these things subliminally. If you wish to see what is going on, or to test the drive's data structures, time its throughput and so on, commercial utilities often improve on Apple's ware. The link-within-a-link in my post above will give you access to more drive utilities than you wish to think about, including the hacked Apple utilities.
de
de
I was actually thinking of having a floppy based web server. It sounds more interesting than using a hardrive.
Besides, the only scsi external hardrive I have available is 20 mb, and it's very noisy.
Besides, the only scsi external hardrive I have available is 20 mb, and it's very noisy.
Actually, if I were going to use a SCSI HD with a Plus server, I would use a ZIP 100 drive. They are absolutely silent unless being accessed. You can get 'em really cheaply on eBay these days, too.
The novelty of setting up a server on a disk drive is very romantic and worth the effort. unfortunately once all the system stuff is loaded that doesn't leave much room for stuff to serve, even with two floppy disks, especially if any of those things are images.
As far as experimenting goes, I'd like to get a web server up and running on a 64K ROM 512k with 400K floppy drives. Now THAT would be a challenge!
Looks like the http://www.machttp.org/ software only runs on System 7.5 now though. Did earlier versions run on something else? Though this guy seems to have the latest version running under 7.0.1 on his SE http://oldmac.toddverbeek.com/
The novelty of setting up a server on a disk drive is very romantic and worth the effort. unfortunately once all the system stuff is loaded that doesn't leave much room for stuff to serve, even with two floppy disks, especially if any of those things are images.
As far as experimenting goes, I'd like to get a web server up and running on a 64K ROM 512k with 400K floppy drives. Now THAT would be a challenge!
Looks like the http://www.machttp.org/ software only runs on System 7.5 now though. Did earlier versions run on something else? Though this guy seems to have the latest version running under 7.0.1 on his SE http://oldmac.toddverbeek.com/
As far as logic board goes, is the plus to fragile to have it all day on? Has anybody tried it on?
What would be best (in order of durability) a plus, SE or Classic?
What would be best (in order of durability) a plus, SE or Classic?
tomlee59 has already commented on this in your thread
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2183
The increasing sophistication of manufacture with lapse of time ought to make the fan-provided 68000 Macs such as the Classic a better bet, but that guess does not include any examination of component quality changes.
In the end, nothing is likely to be more conclusive than your trying these possibilities for yourself, and publishing your results in these Forums.
de
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2183
The increasing sophistication of manufacture with lapse of time ought to make the fan-provided 68000 Macs such as the Classic a better bet, but that guess does not include any examination of component quality changes.
In the end, nothing is likely to be more conclusive than your trying these possibilities for yourself, and publishing your results in these Forums.
de
Will do then, as soon as I get an asante EN/SC, i'll rotate an SE, plus and classic to see how they perform.
Um ... isn't using the Classic kind of defeating the point of running a web server on a Mac from 1986? I mean I know they are basically the same machine (as long as you stick to 800K disks and don't cheat with 1.4MB), but ...
I tend to think of the Classic as a more fragile board ... these were the first truly miniaturized boards Apple offered vs. the 128K - SE30 which relied on tried and true logic-board assembly and stock ICs dating back to the Apple I. In any event I've heard of far more logic-board problems with them than any of the originals. I know for a fact that a 1986 Mac Plus I used in school was on and processing almost 24 hours a day for 3 years without a "system saver" fan, though it was in a climate controlled environment.
I personally would not want a "novelty" server making noise 24/7, so I would tend to opt for the Plus without a fan (as well as for bragging rights), especially if Tom Lee can figure out a way to turn off the video circuits. Then I would investigate a thermostat controlled switch for an added internal fan. Frankly I would try this on an SE or Classic as well without using the internal hard drive if I could turn off the video.
I tend to think of the Classic as a more fragile board ... these were the first truly miniaturized boards Apple offered vs. the 128K - SE30 which relied on tried and true logic-board assembly and stock ICs dating back to the Apple I. In any event I've heard of far more logic-board problems with them than any of the originals. I know for a fact that a 1986 Mac Plus I used in school was on and processing almost 24 hours a day for 3 years without a "system saver" fan, though it was in a climate controlled environment.
I personally would not want a "novelty" server making noise 24/7, so I would tend to opt for the Plus without a fan (as well as for bragging rights), especially if Tom Lee can figure out a way to turn off the video circuits. Then I would investigate a thermostat controlled switch for an added internal fan. Frankly I would try this on an SE or Classic as well without using the internal hard drive if I could turn off the video.
I know this thread was about the lack of a *pluses* running as a webserver, but as a slight tangent, I noticed that as of the most recent netcraft report there are 133 MacHTTP servers running...
http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0708/byserver/MacHTTP/index.html
http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0708/byserver/MacHTTP/index.html
The Plus introduced SIMMs which definitely use surface mount technology (SMT). Is there any other SMT on the Mac Plus logic board (I don't have one open to hand)?
Ah, I stand corrected. I forgot about the SIMMs. However, I just looked at my Plus, SE & SE/30 boards and between all three, the SIMMs are the only surface mount components on them. Compare that to a Classic board I pulled where every single component is surface mount on both sides of the board no-less.