Thread
Mac Plus and using a zip drive as a hard drive
Has anyone used a zip drive as a hard drive for a Mac Plus? I would be interested in hearing about people's experiences. Also, if you have a zip drive connected, can you successfully chain a second drive to the first? Ideally, I would like to use one as the boot drive and the second for data.
Thanks,
David
Thanks,
David
It works very well. And a zip is a more or less standard scsi device, so you can definitely add 6 more scsi devices on the chain. You just have to observe the termination and ID setting rules, as you would with any other scsi configuration.
I have one hooked up as the main boot volume for a Plus running 6.0.8. It's been powered up continuously for months and it runs great. The silence is particularly welcome, and 100MB is plenty of space for system 6 apps. When I bought my first Plus, I had a 65MB drive hooked up to it, and I thought I'd never fill that up.
I also have a 1GB drive connected to the bus, but it hardly ever gets turned on (noisy bearings).
I have one hooked up as the main boot volume for a Plus running 6.0.8. It's been powered up continuously for months and it runs great. The silence is particularly welcome, and 100MB is plenty of space for system 6 apps. When I bought my first Plus, I had a 65MB drive hooked up to it, and I thought I'd never fill that up.
I also have a 1GB drive connected to the bus, but it hardly ever gets turned on (noisy bearings).
I used to use a 230 MB Magneto-Optical drive as my primary drive for a Mac Plus, I lost confidence in ZIP after I had three (of five) drives acquire the "click of death" in a one-year span back in the mid '90s. I've been using ZIP more recently since one each of my B&W and beige G3s have internal ZIP drives, and I have been given three more ZIP drives over the years. (One SCSI, one "Plus" that can be either SCSI or Parallel, and one USB.)
You are not limited to System 6 or 7.
See here for details about how to set it up: http://www.mac128.com/zip.html
Also, I routinely move ZIP disks between a MacBook running Tiger with a USB Zip drive and a Mac Plus with a SCSI Zip drive. OS X has eliminated the annoying habit of System 7, 8 & 9 from updating the 4.2 capable boot driver on the Zip disk. So you may freely interchange them.
See here for details about how to set it up: http://www.mac128.com/zip.html
Also, I routinely move ZIP disks between a MacBook running Tiger with a USB Zip drive and a Mac Plus with a SCSI Zip drive. OS X has eliminated the annoying habit of System 7, 8 & 9 from updating the 4.2 capable boot driver on the Zip disk. So you may freely interchange them.
I' m currently replacing the dead HD inside my Apple SC20 case by a Zip 100 drive I found in my brother's old Beige G3 that layed in the basement.
Not tested it yet, but it's sure a fine hard drive for a Mac Plus as it is silent and fit in the SC20 case, so I can maintain the vintage look ;-) .
When I finish I'll post some pictures.
Not tested it yet, but it's sure a fine hard drive for a Mac Plus as it is silent and fit in the SC20 case, so I can maintain the vintage look ;-) .
When I finish I'll post some pictures.
Yes Tom, I meant you can use a Zip 100 disk drive as a startup disk on a Plus for Systems 1.0 through 4.0 with no problems. (you mean your Mac Plus can't run OS 9? LOL)
Not sure what was up with the site, but it seems to be working fine now ...
See here for details about how to set it up: http://www.mac128.com/zip.html
Not sure what was up with the site, but it seems to be working fine now ...
See here for details about how to set it up: http://www.mac128.com/zip.html
Don't know about the other ones, but my brothers's G3 had a fine SCSI Zip drive ! It looks exactly like this (the picture is not mine) :
In fact the 50 pins conector makes impossible tu use the traditional Molex power conector, but I took the small one from the G3 to plug it inti the SC20 case.
As nahuelmarisi says, you don't need an INIT installed on the Zip itself (which wouldn't work on 1.0-4.0 anyway). But the Zip does need to be formatted with the 4.2 driver so the Plus can see it.
See http://www.mac128.com/zip.html for details.
One thing that needs to be said is that each System requires its own disk as you should not have more than one system on any disk. You can partition a Zip drive, but you will need additional software on a Plus to do it and to then choose the startup partition, since I don't believe Apple included such software until System 6. I may be wrong about that but I'm sure the knowledgeable folks here will correct me if so ...
See http://www.mac128.com/zip.html for details.
One thing that needs to be said is that each System requires its own disk as you should not have more than one system on any disk. You can partition a Zip drive, but you will need additional software on a Plus to do it and to then choose the startup partition, since I don't believe Apple included such software until System 6. I may be wrong about that but I'm sure the knowledgeable folks here will correct me if so ...
System Switcher (swap between System 6 and 7) was available from Apple as an unsupported developer download from the early 1990s. It allowed installation of System 6 and 7 on a single disk partition. I am not aware of anything before that date.
My notes on the Zip are different to those from Mac128, but you shold read both. Use whatever suits you.
My notes, sorted after a file transfer mess up: http://www.vintagemacworld.com/pluszip.html
My notes on the Zip are different to those from Mac128, but you shold read both. Use whatever suits you.
My notes, sorted after a file transfer mess up: http://www.vintagemacworld.com/pluszip.html
Excellent tutorial Charlieman. I must admit I got a little lost during the Zip 250 thread.
As for my method, I would recommend it particularly if the Zip is your only hard drive connected to the Plus and you only use it to transfer files with OS X, which does not update the Zip disk driver (at least under Tiger).
Charlieman's method is much more universal particularly if you are going to use it with a wide range of systems, which would otherwise require the Iomega INIT to mount it.
As for running an older system, I would certainly expect Charlieman's method to work as well. s long as the Plus can "see" the disk at startup, it does not seem to care what system it loads from it. Which is particularly interesting in the case of System 1 through 2, since both pre-dated Apple's implementation of SCSI. Guess the ROM handles all the translating from the Finder which would have only been aware of IWM or serial bus disks at that time.
As for my method, I would recommend it particularly if the Zip is your only hard drive connected to the Plus and you only use it to transfer files with OS X, which does not update the Zip disk driver (at least under Tiger).
Charlieman's method is much more universal particularly if you are going to use it with a wide range of systems, which would otherwise require the Iomega INIT to mount it.
As for running an older system, I would certainly expect Charlieman's method to work as well. s long as the Plus can "see" the disk at startup, it does not seem to care what system it loads from it. Which is particularly interesting in the case of System 1 through 2, since both pre-dated Apple's implementation of SCSI. Guess the ROM handles all the translating from the Finder which would have only been aware of IWM or serial bus disks at that time.
Ok, I'll check if a newbie like me in vintage Mac world can understand everything
.It seems that the answer is no, as I can't get the Plus to boot from the Zip diskette. In fact I first spent a few hours trying unsuccessfully to format the Zip ; Lido reported an "arbitration error". I finally removed the SCSI terminator (or whatever is its name) that ended the cable and it worked all right. I thought this piece was necesary as it came with the SC20 drive. When I connected the Zip to my Performa with the terminator on it didn't bother...
Now the Plus recognizes the Zip drive, but refuses to boot from the system I copied on it, although I followed your tutorial.
Don't give up just yet. If the Plus now recognizes the drive, you're halfway home.
If you boot off of another volume (like a floppy) are you able to read the contents of the zip disk reliably? If not, you may still be experiencing a termination issue, or that particular zip disk could be faulty. If you can read the contents fine, then you may wish to reinstall the system and try again.
numero6, I assume you used Charlieman's method using Lido to format the Zip disk you are having trouble with?
What happens when you try to boot? Does it just keep flashing the question mark? Or do you get the happy Mac before it hangs?
Try this: boot off a system floppy, insert the Lido formatted Zip, then erase it using the System Finder. Then copy the same good system you used to erase the Zip onto it from the floppy. Then try to boot up from the Zip. FYI, my Iomega formatted Zip is set to Termination:On ID:6. Insert the Zip before you turn on the Mac Plus.
Post your results.
P.S. There's also a slight possibility you have one of the frist two Plus ROM versions that may be causing a problem. See these:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=7333
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=2000
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/hw_11.html
The differences between the original and rev. 1 & 2 ROMs are (per info article instructions above):
1) 4D1E EExx
2) 4D1E EAxx
3) 4D1F 81xx
What happens when you try to boot? Does it just keep flashing the question mark? Or do you get the happy Mac before it hangs?
Try this: boot off a system floppy, insert the Lido formatted Zip, then erase it using the System Finder. Then copy the same good system you used to erase the Zip onto it from the floppy. Then try to boot up from the Zip. FYI, my Iomega formatted Zip is set to Termination:On ID:6. Insert the Zip before you turn on the Mac Plus.
Post your results.
P.S. There's also a slight possibility you have one of the frist two Plus ROM versions that may be causing a problem. See these:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=7333
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=2000
http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/hw_11.html
The differences between the original and rev. 1 & 2 ROMs are (per info article instructions above):
1) 4D1E EExx
2) 4D1E EAxx
3) 4D1F 81xx
Yes, I first formated the drive with Lido, but couldn't boot from it. I have the blinking question mark. The procedure with Lido wasn't exactly as Charlieman explained : although my Plus has 4Mb Ram, I couldn't access the formating options. Otherwise as I already said the drive works all right.
Then I tried to erase the disk through the finder and reinstall the system, but the result was the same.
Then I tried another formating app, Blue Disc Manager, with the same result !
Now I'm going to see the ROM question you suggested. I've not entered my Plus in your database yet, but I know it's a "European Macintosh 128" made in Fremont in 1984.
Then I tried to erase the disk through the finder and reinstall the system, but the result was the same.
Then I tried another formating app, Blue Disc Manager, with the same result !
Now I'm going to see the ROM question you suggested. I've not entered my Plus in your database yet, but I know it's a "European Macintosh 128" made in Fremont in 1984.
I am looking at a SCSI zip drive now. It has on the back two selector switches. The first turns termination on or off and the second allows you to select between a SCSI ID of 5 or 6 for the drive.
--David
BTW: I just got my Mac Plus tonight. I am going to have some fun. }
--David
BTW: I just got my Mac Plus tonight. I am going to have some fun. }
Here's an interesting article that seems to suggest an external SCSI drive can be powered by the floppy port, thus eliminating a cable:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=5935
I wonder if the HD 20 can be modified to use this method?
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=5935
I wonder if the HD 20 can be modified to use this method?
This is very cool stuff. Thank you for developing and preserving this knowledge.
Using a magneto-optical drive should be pretty much the same, I imagine.
I am partial to the Fujitsu DynaMO 640 drives. I sometimes find them for under $20 at Goodwill. The 640 MB disks cost about the same as a ZIP disk and are about the same size. However, there's no concern about ever getting the click of death or having the media die on you.
Back when Zips were current technology, I always thought that 640 MB MO should have been in the position ZIP was. MO was much more reliable, the media cost about the same per disk with the same form factor and each disk stores 6 times as much as a Zip. However, the Zip drives cost about half what an MO drive did, and low cost of entry is all important in consumer marketing, even if the cost of ownership is much higher.
But these days, with a little hunting one can often turn up a superior SCSI MO drive for no more than a Zip drive would cost.
Using a magneto-optical drive should be pretty much the same, I imagine.
I am partial to the Fujitsu DynaMO 640 drives. I sometimes find them for under $20 at Goodwill. The 640 MB disks cost about the same as a ZIP disk and are about the same size. However, there's no concern about ever getting the click of death or having the media die on you.
Back when Zips were current technology, I always thought that 640 MB MO should have been in the position ZIP was. MO was much more reliable, the media cost about the same per disk with the same form factor and each disk stores 6 times as much as a Zip. However, the Zip drives cost about half what an MO drive did, and low cost of entry is all important in consumer marketing, even if the cost of ownership is much higher.
But these days, with a little hunting one can often turn up a superior SCSI MO drive for no more than a Zip drive would cost.
Geography makes a difference. MO drives (and consequently, media) are less common in Europe than Zip drives. The early 120MB MO drives were popular over here in scientific environments, especially because they made it easy to exchange data between so many operating systems, but the bigger drives never really took off owing to developments in network technology (sneakernet just died).
The "click of death" Zip problem made a much smaller impact in the UK compared to the US. Zip 250 drives were accepted by consumers without concerns about past history.
The "click of death" Zip problem made a much smaller impact in the UK compared to the US. Zip 250 drives were accepted by consumers without concerns about past history.
Little late to chime in but ... I am pretty sure that the B&W g3 was the first to ship with an IDE Zip. My G3 MT came with a SCSI Zip. This thread is making me want to go reassemble the Mac II I was going to gut and put that Zip drive in it. I guess i could dremel my SE though... That would be so cool. After that modification....
4 MB RAM
Floppy
ZIP
Ethernet
200Mb HD
4 MB RAM
Floppy
ZIP
Ethernet
200Mb HD
Just got my Plus booted off a Zip!
http://web.onetel.com/~colingjones/zip/mpzipd.html
Now looking for a WetII to get the Plus on wi-fi ?
http://web.onetel.com/~colingjones/zip/mpzipd.html
Now looking for a WetII to get the Plus on wi-fi ?
Ooops!, I meant a Linksys WET11 wireless/ethernet bridge.
I had my eye on the Netgear wireless printserver (WGPS606) once too as it has fantastic spec but was expensive at the time. I should move one up my wish list!
I 'think' MacHTTP requires system 7.x and MacTCP, but Fetch needs MacTCP so you end up with System 7.x
Still having fun.
I had my eye on the Netgear wireless printserver (WGPS606) once too as it has fantastic spec but was expensive at the time. I should move one up my wish list!
I 'think' MacHTTP requires system 7.x and MacTCP, but Fetch needs MacTCP so you end up with System 7.x
Still having fun.
Hi all,
My plussed 512 has been collecting dust on a shelve for a while... now I've plugged it again but I'm still stuck with the same problem.
It boot Ok from floppy (system 6.0. 8) , but I can't make it boot from an external (SCSI) drive. I tried with Zips again and with a 3gb hard drive that I formatted using different applications (Lido, Blue Disc Manager, Apple Special HD 7.3.5). The Zips and the drive mount Ok after formatting but not after rebooting the Mac :disapprove: I have to use a mounting app. to make them appear again. So the Mac can't boot from them although I installed the system on them . I tried various formatting formulas and the result is still the same !
Anyone can help ? I think I'm just missing something and it drives me crazy ! I have great projects for this little Plus but right now I'm stuck
My plussed 512 has been collecting dust on a shelve for a while... now I've plugged it again but I'm still stuck with the same problem.
It boot Ok from floppy (system 6.0. 8) , but I can't make it boot from an external (SCSI) drive. I tried with Zips again and with a 3gb hard drive that I formatted using different applications (Lido, Blue Disc Manager, Apple Special HD 7.3.5). The Zips and the drive mount Ok after formatting but not after rebooting the Mac :disapprove: I have to use a mounting app. to make them appear again. So the Mac can't boot from them although I installed the system on them . I tried various formatting formulas and the result is still the same !
Anyone can help ? I think I'm just missing something and it drives me crazy ! I have great projects for this little Plus but right now I'm stuck
Few drives >1GB will boot the Plus, in my experience, thanks to the not-quite-compliant SCSI implementation of the Plus (it was the first, after all).
As for the Zip problem, though, you should be able to get that to work with some more fiddling. Here are some things to try:
1) Experiment with different power-on sequences. Sometimes it matters whether the boot volume is powered up before or after the computer. Also experiment with "disk inserted prior to power-up" and "disk inserted after power-up" (just in case that makes a difference with your setup).
2) A terminator is necessary, but the Plus does not supply terminator power. A device external to the Plus has to supply that power. Depending again on power sequencing, it could be that the bus is not properly terminated during the time the Plus queries the bus.
3) Try installing a fresh v4.2 driver. If that disk has been used in a system with a more recent version, the driver might have been modified without your noticing.
As for the Zip problem, though, you should be able to get that to work with some more fiddling. Here are some things to try:
1) Experiment with different power-on sequences. Sometimes it matters whether the boot volume is powered up before or after the computer. Also experiment with "disk inserted prior to power-up" and "disk inserted after power-up" (just in case that makes a difference with your setup).
2) A terminator is necessary, but the Plus does not supply terminator power. A device external to the Plus has to supply that power. Depending again on power sequencing, it could be that the bus is not properly terminated during the time the Plus queries the bus.
3) Try installing a fresh v4.2 driver. If that disk has been used in a system with a more recent version, the driver might have been modified without your noticing.
That is a good point. The ZIP disk is the most reliable SCSI drive I have ever used with a Plus. Plug-N-play if formatted correctly. I personally usethe 4.2 driver method and have never had a problem. Charlieman has suggested using Lido or other low-level formatting software will be just as effective. He will have to weigh in there. Numero6 did not mention which method he used on the ZIP.
However, If you are using 6.0.8, install the Iomega 4.2 driver in the Sytem Folder and simply erase your ZIP in the Finder. Copy your system over. Confirm it is there and double click on it, just to make sure it is recognized as a valid System file. The ZIP must be on, terminated, and the disk inserted before or immediately after you flip the main power switch. Your Mac Plus should then boot from it.
If it does not, then there may be a problem on the SCSI bus. Also, what version ROMs are you using? If a first revision ROM, there could be some issues there as well.
Hi eveyone...
and thank you Mac128 and tomlee59 ! My Plus now boots from the Zip flawlessly... as I thought I was close but after trying so many formatting settings I was "dizzy" and had forgotten the basics...
Now I can focus on the next 2 challenges : to fit the (internal) Zip drive into the HD20 case (and manage a space so I can push the cartridge into the drive) and to connect the Plus to my 12" Powerbook (G4) and then to the Internet... through a Farallon Etherwave localtalk-to-ethernet bridge.
I guess this will be more complex
Thanks again for the help :-*
and thank you Mac128 and tomlee59 ! My Plus now boots from the Zip flawlessly... as I thought I was close but after trying so many formatting settings I was "dizzy" and had forgotten the basics...
Now I can focus on the next 2 challenges : to fit the (internal) Zip drive into the HD20 case (and manage a space so I can push the cartridge into the drive) and to connect the Plus to my 12" Powerbook (G4) and then to the Internet... through a Farallon Etherwave localtalk-to-ethernet bridge.
I guess this will be more complex
Thanks again for the help :-*
While this makes me cringe, the reality is that once an HD20 drive is dead, there is no known way to replace it. So it's not like trying to preserve it will ever result in anything more than a nice looking empty case. In which case, modding an HD20 case to make it useful seems like a reasonable option.
I had thought about using an HD20 case for a slot-loading CD-ROM, by using the side air vents with a minimum of alteration to the case. This could of course be used more efficiently for the ZIP disk, to eliminate major alterations, as long as the dies of the drive is exposed to access the disk. I had also thought of doing this with an old 400K or 800K external drive, but those can still be restored with functional drives. And the HD20 case will hold both the SCSI Zip, much of the bulky cable and the external power supply. One could even put a power strip in there in order to power the entire Mac system with a single cable. All the Ethernet hardware can be put in there as well. So, it sounds like a good little project.
I'm already using the HD's power supply for the Zip drive (it's an internal one, taken from an old G3). The drive fits perfectly in the case and there is some space left, but not enough for the Etherwave I think.
I will shortly open a new post about connecting the Plus to internet...
I will shortly open a new post about connecting the Plus to internet...
Aiiiiiii!!!
Thant's not an HD 20, that's an HD 20SC which has a significantly sustainable, preservable life, as it is the original SCSI drive case.
Now I'm back to cringing. Whatever you do, DO NOT cut holes into that case. It would just be wrong, especially if it is branded 20 SC, there are not too many of those left in circulation. I would suggest making a spacer to hold the top of the case just high enough to insert the ZIP disk. Either that or cut your slot into the side vents already cut into the case to alter it as little as possible in the least visible way.
Don't worry I won't harm it ! I like old things too much I'm currently using a Ericsson T39 phone and a Nikon F2 camera daily...
I plan to use the space used originally for the HD activity LED (which is useless now) to be able to push the the cartidge into the drive.
Or is there any software to stop the Mac from ejecting the cartidge ?
I'm currently using a Ericsson T39 phone and a Nikon F2 camera daily...I plan to use the space used originally for the HD activity LED (which is useless now) to be able to push the the cartidge into the drive.
Or is there any software to stop the Mac from ejecting the cartidge ?