Thread
68040 upgrade cards in IIci
In the last month-or-so I have acquired three 68040 accelerator cards for use in a IIci PDS (cache) slot, and other Macs through an appropriate adapter: DayStar Turbo040, MicroMac Carrera040 and Mobius Speedster. I installed the DayStar card and QuadControl CP in my second IIci (with OS 7.6.1), replacing a DayStar PowerCache 50MHz. Off went the Turbo 040, and has never looked back. That's the way all CPU upgrades should be, no?
Tell that to the fairies. The Carrera arrived with one 22µF 6V capacitor (the kind that trag likens to 'little fuel tanks') loose in the bag, one ditto connected by one leg only to the card, a third properly in place, and the fourth completely missing. The solder pads showed no sign that there had ever been a cap there. From the dirt adhering to the MicroMac-branded cooling-fan's blades I gauged that the card had been in use for some time. With as many as three ineffectual caps? I replaced those three defective/missing caps with 22µF 25V tantalums. Then the Carrera went into my third IIci, with Carrera040 CP and Startup Carrera Extension (under OS 7.6.1). TattleTech 2.84 and MicroMac's Speedometer saw the CPU as '68030 25MHz', remarkably like the native CPU, rather than the expected 68040 40MHz. No loading order changes for the CP and extension let the system 'see' the new CPU, whether the startup volume was the internal SCSI 0 or an external SCSI 6.
So, out with the Carrera and in with the Mobius. The main card of both MicroMac and Mobius upgrades is, as nearly as may be, identical physically and (presumably) electrically, but the Mobius card did have all four 22µF caps in place as tantalum electrolytics. Only the 128kB cache cards differed significantly, in apparent design and in appearance, between the two accelerators. The same CP and extension as for the Carrera have been reported to serve for the Mobius. However, the Mobius gave the same result as the MicroMac: the CPU again showed as 68030 25MHz.
Part way through the battle of wills I replaced the IIci's Asanté 10Base-T NIC with an AsantéFAST 10/100Base-T card, to speed up transfers of software from the other two IIci Macs for troubleshooting. To complete that upgrade I installed OT 1.1.2 over the existing 1.1.1. Damme, if after restart, what does TattleTech show for the CPU but 68040 40MHz. Speedometer confirmed this. I still don't know whether the attached 128kB cache card is active, but one victory per skirmish is not to be sneezed at. What possible connection might there be between a CPU and a NIC that could wreak such a result?
Next step is to pick up jaw and re-install the MicroMac to see whether such a nearly identical card shows the same behaviour.
de
Tell that to the fairies. The Carrera arrived with one 22µF 6V capacitor (the kind that trag likens to 'little fuel tanks') loose in the bag, one ditto connected by one leg only to the card, a third properly in place, and the fourth completely missing. The solder pads showed no sign that there had ever been a cap there. From the dirt adhering to the MicroMac-branded cooling-fan's blades I gauged that the card had been in use for some time. With as many as three ineffectual caps? I replaced those three defective/missing caps with 22µF 25V tantalums. Then the Carrera went into my third IIci, with Carrera040 CP and Startup Carrera Extension (under OS 7.6.1). TattleTech 2.84 and MicroMac's Speedometer saw the CPU as '68030 25MHz', remarkably like the native CPU, rather than the expected 68040 40MHz. No loading order changes for the CP and extension let the system 'see' the new CPU, whether the startup volume was the internal SCSI 0 or an external SCSI 6.
So, out with the Carrera and in with the Mobius. The main card of both MicroMac and Mobius upgrades is, as nearly as may be, identical physically and (presumably) electrically, but the Mobius card did have all four 22µF caps in place as tantalum electrolytics. Only the 128kB cache cards differed significantly, in apparent design and in appearance, between the two accelerators. The same CP and extension as for the Carrera have been reported to serve for the Mobius. However, the Mobius gave the same result as the MicroMac: the CPU again showed as 68030 25MHz.
Part way through the battle of wills I replaced the IIci's Asanté 10Base-T NIC with an AsantéFAST 10/100Base-T card, to speed up transfers of software from the other two IIci Macs for troubleshooting. To complete that upgrade I installed OT 1.1.2 over the existing 1.1.1. Damme, if after restart, what does TattleTech show for the CPU but 68040 40MHz. Speedometer confirmed this. I still don't know whether the attached 128kB cache card is active, but one victory per skirmish is not to be sneezed at. What possible connection might there be between a CPU and a NIC that could wreak such a result?
Next step is to pick up jaw and re-install the MicroMac to see whether such a nearly identical card shows the same behaviour.
de
OT with the Daystar 040 gave me bombs, have you ever tried them together?
Have you tried Cache-22? It will usually correctly detect the cache (if any) on upgrades.
Beats me what OT has to do with it. Perhaps something in the PRAM got reset when the new/different network card was installed?
Jeff
Cache-22 is PPC only, as opening it in a System running on a 68K Mac will quickly tell one, in red. Strangely so, because RAMometer, GaugePRO and even Metronome work, sort of, but without mention of L2 cache. However, your suggestion prompted me to look at Cache Switch CP. The same version (7.0.1?) is installed with System 7.1 and OSs 7.6 and 8.0, and has no effect in this instance.
Something that I forgot to mention above was that, having installed OT 1.1.2 and discovered that 68040 operation of the Mobius card was thereby enabled, I also upgraded (updated?) from the the AppleShare Client 3.6.5 installed with OS 7.6.1 to AS 3.7.4. The 68040 was immediately disabled again. Pressing on like a good soldier I then installed AS 3.8.3 (the version recommended by Apple for 7.6.1 in artnum=16145), which runs happily under 7.6.1 with either a DayStar 50MHz PowerCache card or a Turbo040. The Mobius card was again enabled.
¿Que?
de
Erratum: 'Carrera' corrected to 'Mobius' in second-last line
It dismays me that System 7.x (or heaven forbid 8.x) is mentioned in the same post as a IIci.
God intended that a IIci be run under 6.x. Booting a IIci into 7 or later is like putting a sweater on your cat. Yeah, you may think it's cute, but your cat hates you for it. Trust me, your IIci hates you for making it boot into 7. System 8? It's trying its best to cut its own motherboard traces.
God intended that a IIci be run under 6.x. Booting a IIci into 7 or later is like putting a sweater on your cat. Yeah, you may think it's cute, but your cat hates you for it. Trust me, your IIci hates you for making it boot into 7. System 8? It's trying its best to cut its own motherboard traces.
A IIci with an 040 runs 7.x just fine. If you want to run OS 6 then a IIcx would be a better machine in my opinion.
You're right of course, but as this board's protector of all things System 6, it's my responsibility to make sure that everyone with a 6.x capable Mac run the right OS. System 7 is NEVER the right OS for a Mac II series machine.
EMOci
system 6 on a 040 upgraded IIci is nice and fast... but not taht useful.
Very skeletal, but here are some Speedometer 4 figures for IIci-2 (50MHz DayStar PowerCache); IIci-1 (33MHz DayStar Turbo040 with and without FPU), and IIci-3 (40MHz Carrera040 not 'seen' by system, ie still running a 25MHz 030; and 40MHz Mobius Speedster 040). OS 7.6.1 throughout.
Added on 3 May 2008:
Ten iterations of each test. CPU, Graphics (Radius 24nn) and HDD relative to Quadra 605 = 1. Maths relative to Quadra 650 = 1.
Under System 6.0.8, the system reported: 'No coherent System found. Just random scattered primitives.' :-*
de
Erratum: DayStar Turbo040 corrected to 33MHz, which may have some bearing on the comparison with the Mobius card (40MHz).
- IIci-3 (68030/68882 25MHz, although MicroMac Carrera040 was installed)
CPU = 0.43
Graphics = 0.36
HDD = 2.22 (Quantum Fireball 2GB)
Maths = 1.50
IIci-2 (68030/68882 50MHz DayStar)
CPU = 0.86
Graphics = 0.57
HDD = 2.78 (IBM DDRS 4GB)
Maths = 3.11
IIci-1 (68LC040/33MHz DayStar)
CPU = 1.17
Graphics = 0.75
HDD = 3.29 (Seagate 2GB)
Maths = 5.25
IIci-1 (68040/33MHz DayStar)
CPU = 1.31
Graphics = 0.77
HDD = 3.27 (Seagate 2GB)
Maths = 12.14
IIci-3 (68040/40MHz Mobius)
CPU = 1.62
Graphics = 0.77
HDD = 2.62 (Quantum Fireball 2GB)
Maths = 24.11
Added on 3 May 2008:
- IIci-3 (68040/40MHz Carrera without cache, but Cache Switch CP ON)
CPU = 1.54
Graphics = 0.73
HDD = 2.18 (Quantum Fireball 2GB)
Maths = 23.86
IIci-3 (68040/40MHz Carrera without cache, but Cache Switch CP OFF)
CPU = 1.54
Graphics = 0.73
HDD = 2.18 (Quantum Fireball 2GB)
Maths = 23.86
Ten iterations of each test. CPU, Graphics (Radius 24nn) and HDD relative to Quadra 605 = 1. Maths relative to Quadra 650 = 1.
Under System 6.0.8, the system reported: 'No coherent System found. Just random scattered primitives.' :-*
de
Erratum: DayStar Turbo040 corrected to 33MHz, which may have some bearing on the comparison with the Mobius card (40MHz).
LOL! Touche!
Interesting benchmarks. It brings up a question though - didn't all the Quadra 650s have a full 040 in them? It's benching as though it doesn't have an FPU. Or did you transpose the 0 and 5 and that same Quadra 605 is being used for the FPU baseline?
The 605, having an LC040, is used only for the non-maths-intensive tests. Effectively, the number for each IIci test is a ratio of the number of flops (or outcomes) compared to the 605. Because the 650 has a full 040, it is used in place of the 605 in maths-intensive tests, but again the IIci figures are ratios. No account is taken of CPU speeds, either relative or absolute (or so I divine) in the tests, which are just raw performance indicators.
de
de
Curious that there's such a difference between the Daystar and the Mobius with the same CPU and speed in the Math and to a lesser extent the CPU tests. I wonder if the Mobius manages to operate with fewer wait states.
Oh, hey. Are you using one of the newest revision Turbo040s with the big ASIC or the old style with all the little GALs on board?
Oh, hey. Are you using one of the newest revision Turbo040s with the big ASIC or the old style with all the little GALs on board?
Is there a difference in speed between the original Daystar Turbos and the later ones that didn't have a cache slot (cache built in)?
Sorry. I didn't mean to ignore your query, but I did overlook it while I was preoccupied with the MicroMac and Mobius cards. All three IIcis of mine have OT as well as OS 7.6.1. IIci-2 (DayStar PowerCache) and IIci-1 (DayStar Turbo040) already had OT 1.1.2 when this exercise began, but IIci-3 had only OT 1.1.1, which was upgraded as in my first post. IIci-1 has behaved with propriety ever since the Turbo replaced the PowerCache that was already there. Unless OT is installed out-of-place (no support), I cannot think of a reason for it to misbehave, even though you have found it so. What System version were you using?
de
Substitution of the Mobius with the MicroMac has enabled me to determine that the 128kB card of the MicroMac is the villain in the story. Under the same circumstances in which the Mobius performs faultlessly (now), although I am still not sure that the Mobius cache card is active, the MicroMac cache freezes startup immediately after the Carrera CP loads. Neither does TattleTech 'see' the cache. Removal of the MicroMac cache card restores normality. Inspection of the MicroMac cache card reveals corrosion on the pins of some ICs, but none is bridged, and the 'fuel-tank' electrolytics show no sign of bulging or leaking. However, a wash and a recap are now in the to-do list. Ideally, testing with a new cache would be the way to go, but where to find one now (apart from on the chimeric MicroMac website)?
There is no forest of GAL chips. The complement is:
2 x Xilinx multipin (40?) with different type numbers
1 x GAL
4 x P53SJ
1 x 88196DW80
1 x AT17C65
2 x 51C9XXK
1 x P528A
and what I take to be an 80MHz oscillator.
de
Not on the Daystar card, I don't think, as Daystar did not use Xilinx FPGAs, although I am braced to find myself wrong and learn something new here.
That sounds like the chips on the Mobius.
68000 and 68020 machines should run System 6. So should any 030 machine less than 25mhz but from 25mhz onward System 7 can run acceptably.It dismays me that System 7.x (or heaven forbid 8.x) is mentioned in the same post as a IIci.
God intended that a IIci be run under 6.x. Booting a IIci into 7 or later is like putting a sweater on your cat. Yeah, you may think it's cute, but your cat hates you for it. Trust me, your IIci hates you for making it boot into 7. System 8? It's trying its best to cut its own motherboard traces.
And 030 Macs like the IIci can't run System 8. 7.6.1 is as far as they go if they are 32 bit clean, 7.5.5 if they are not. If you are tricking it into 8 using an 040 upgrade, it's technically a Quadra now.
Well, scratch that idea!
In my SE/30 with 48MHz Turbo040, with Enhanced PowerMath I get the following results: 39.8 CPU, 9.33 FPU (Norton System Info 3.5.3). With Enhanced PowerMath turned off, I get the same results.
You can really see how important memory bandwidth is to some of the tests that they're using, though. With the 128k cache turned off, my scores dropped to 30.1 CPU, 8.1 FPU. Obviously a lot of their tests fit wholly into 128k L2 cache but not into the (32k? I don't remember exactly) L1 cache.
Re: IIci with OS 8... You're totally right about the IIci loving System 6... That said, mine seems to like running OS 8.1 from time to time; it's like going window-shopping and it's glad to get back to System 6 when it can. Since it's used for testing, it's napping 99% of the time anyway.
Also, 68030 Macs run MacOS 8 just fine; the biggest problem is making sure to have enough RAM. http://home.earthlink.net/~gamba2/os8_68030.html
Yes. My apology. The wits were out to lunch when I looked at the MicroMac instead of the DayStar Turbo040. The DayStar (a 33MHz, by the way) has a proprietary DayStar larger chip (and replaceable ROM, I presume) but only two probable GAL chips and a variety of others that I didn't make a census of in a quick dive inside a moment ago.
As I mentioned above, the MicroMac and Mobius cards proper (both 40MHz) are almost identical physically, and probably electrically, but their cache cards are widely different in layout and content. I hesitate, without a lot more investigation, to try the Mobius cache with the MicroMac card.
de
Even if you can use hacks to make it run, would you really want to on an 030? The IIci and IIfx would be the only machines you could realistically consider running MacOS 8 on. Anything running a 20mhz or slower CPU must crawl. There's usually a reason why Apple discontinues support for certain models and it's usually because the user experience would be degraded by upgrading to the newest OS.
A Daystar tech told me that there was a significant performance improvement with the newer version. He told me this (or was it a she?) back around '93 - '95. I've never tested it.
But as it turns out, Equill was testing the newer, presumably faster, Daystar card anyway. Hmmmm. Still puzzled that the Mobius/Carrera math scores are so much higher. I don't think the 33 vs. 40 speed should make a 100% difference in math speed.
Ah, one last question. Equill was that Daystar card originally an 'i' version on which you switched the CPU? I ask because there is a ROM difference between the 'i' version and the full FPU version of the Daystar card.
That's another for my ever-increasing list of things that I had not previously known. QuadControl reports the ROM version of my DayStar Turbo040 card as 4.11i. What is the significance of that, given that the card was jumpered for a full 68040 (instead of either of the remaining 68LC040 and 68EC040 positions, both of which are without FPUs)?
de
I'm not sure what you mean about the card being jumpered, but there is definitely an LC version and a full version of the ROM for that card. Can you tell me what kind of chip the ROM is stored on, under the little sticker. It's the one in the socket over in the corner. If I have a compatible chip on hand, and can ever find an hour, I'll burn you a copy of the later ROM. Then we can see if the Math scores change.
I had read this topic carefully and i decided to capture another real life test comparing 68030 and 68040.
Flight Simulator 4.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIgIUh_s2P8&fmt=18
Pathways into darkness demo (already posted)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDqDphSapV8
I've noticed basically minimal or no difference between the daystar turbo 040 (on board cache model) and Micromac carrera 040 "cacheless" (both 33 mhz).
I do like a lot more the Daystar one because it starts even without extensions or control panel in specific folders. Now i'm waiting to setup a macintosh IIx or IIcx with adapters i've received in the bundle. Some photos of the mac IIci micromac 040 equipped.
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6656/micromac1zf8.jpg
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/255/micromac2vk0.jpg
Flight Simulator 4.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIgIUh_s2P8&fmt=18
Pathways into darkness demo (already posted)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDqDphSapV8
I've noticed basically minimal or no difference between the daystar turbo 040 (on board cache model) and Micromac carrera 040 "cacheless" (both 33 mhz).
I do like a lot more the Daystar one because it starts even without extensions or control panel in specific folders. Now i'm waiting to setup a macintosh IIx or IIcx with adapters i've received in the bundle. Some photos of the mac IIci micromac 040 equipped.
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6656/micromac1zf8.jpg
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/255/micromac2vk0.jpg
I disagree with the notion that certain OSes are meant for certain Macs, especially concerning II series and 6 only. I never liked System 6, it sucked pretty much from day one. Add that to the fact that 7 runs fine on most II's, and you have me happily running 7.6.1 on my IIsi and IIci. I consider running 6 on most Macs but the 68000's to be crippling them. 