Widget drive

"Just a case and monitor" - no logic board then? It's just an empty case?

From what I understand, the Wiget is a parallel hard drive, so it's not usable on a Mac. 

You might want to ask on the LisaList, where most of the knowledgable Lisa people seem to hang out: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lisalist

You can't use it on any other computer other than a Lisa 2/10.  You could power it up but be prepared for the sound of  jet engine taking off.  Other than seeing if it spins up, there's no real reason to test it unless you have all of the other parts including the logic board/CPU/memory and I/O board in place.  That will be the true test of the hard drive.

So..... It could work on a Macintosh XL

mactjaap said:

So..... It could work on a Macintosh XL

Click to expand...

Yes.  A Macintosh XL is a Lisa 2/10 with a square pixel video mod.  If it doesn't have the video mod, it is still could be called a Macintosh XL depending on when it was sold and what software came with it. 

I've powered up a Widget standalone to ensure that it was passing its internal tests (there's a video on youtube) but beyond that you require ALL of the guts of a Lisa to do much else. My 2/5 will recognize it as a hard drive but either because of a ROM incompatibility or additional problems with my own drive, if the bus pokes at it the drive simply resets.

Formatting until recently was only possible through the LOS/Macworks installer. More recently however the Basic Lisa Utility also added support for formatting and disk exercising functions.

I have the movies on Youtube, but I miss instructions how to do it. So how do I connect power to de HD without having the correct power unit. Could one use a generic one with some intermediate cords with "crocodile" connectors?

Durr, I totally never uploaded the pinout anywhere. Anyways, yeah. Even in a Lisa 2/5 all the voltage pins you need are present on the power supply. You just need to break them out. Failing that you can power the drive as-is with a regular ATX power supply.

Super! Thanks very much for the power information. I will try to get an ATX power unit.

Bought myself an ATX power unit! Now studying the way to connect it.

Very carefully. With extra ductape

BIZARRE. From the corner of your photo the PCB layout is different from all the ones I have seen so far. You have a Z8 chip with the EPROM piggybacked.

OK. I will make some more pictures.

You pick that up from baybob60? He's the man

CelGen said:

BIZARRE. From the corner of your photo the PCB layout is different from all the ones I have seen so far. You have a Z8 chip with the EPROM piggybacked.

Click to expand...

When I was looking for my piggyback Z8, an early Widget drive was indicated as one of the sources to look. I don't recall the reference any more but none of mine had one.  The piggyback Z8 is interchangeable with the right code on it.

Have tested it today. Disk doesn't seem to spin up. Currents are ok. See:

https://youtu.be/ZxKsA2q0vOI

Only a green light blinks and becomes green

You may have a "stuck brake".  Take a look at this document: https://ia801808.us.archive.org/14/items/AppleLisa_RepairSunGuideDC/AppleLisa_RepairSunGuideDC.pdfand navigate to page 27 of 48.

Good luck.

As promised  pictures of the Widget drive:

I like to add to the current state that after a time the green light op top will burn continually. If you then switch of power you will hear a hard click. 

My borrowed widget drive also makes loud click-clack sounds when powered on and off. I assume that's normal?

The guy who I borrowed the Lisa from said initially the drive didn't spin at all. But he physically turned the disk a few times with some tool (sorry, I don't know the details), and after that it started working.

I wouldn't assume your widget is broken, until you've connected it to an actual Lisa. Maybe the brake isn't supposed to deactivate until it sees a certain signal from the computer, which it's not getting with your power rig?

I tried the "stuck brake" solution, but no succes. Any other ideas?

Does the drive spindle spin freely by hand?  It's possible that stiction is the issue.  If it's stuck, try forcing it to turn.  You've got nothing to lose because your stuck anyway.. literally.  

If it's not that than you either don't have power to the motor connected properly or your motor is gone, unfortunately.  

The other issue I've had with Widgets is the internal lens has come loose.  I had to open my drive and try to glue it back in place.  The drive was a write-off after that.

@snuci

Thanks again for your advises! The disk can spin but not lightly... Not sure if this should be the case.

I will look into the motor connection. Maybe I can find documentation about currents, etc to find if something is wrong there.

the spindle motor may have hardened grease in the bearings. 

I just recently ran into this problem with a pair of 5 1/4 floppy drives on my IBM 5155. I had to press-out the hubs and clean/repack the bearings. 

Mine had the same problem. Many years of no use meant the bearings were stiff. You applied power and quickly gave the spindle a little twist before the motor drivers burned out. I left my drive sitting for a few hours to work the grease around the bearings again and it hasn't had issues starting up since.

While you have an earlier revision drive and I have no idea how its startup differs, here's what you should be expecting out of a Widget.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tuvrEtdfU

Also, I would put a piece of electrical tape over the quartz window on that EPROM. All you need is a good shot of direct sunlight or a camera flash to scramble a bit or two.

OK i will try to help the disk spin. Should I turn clockwise or counter clockwise?

Some improvement!

I disconnected the power to the engine and reconnected. Now the disk will try to spin. It moves 0.1 inch and stops(counterclockwise).

I have turned the engine some times by hand counterclockwise also.

Any ideas what to try next?

Keep turning it by hand until that old sticky grease has softened enough for the drive to turn on its own?

First BIG Success!!!! I got it spinning!

Just by rotating it counterclockwise for some time. I could feel it rolling better and better. Then I switched on power and it started running. Even the brake came lose after 15 seconds, just like it should.

But... I'm not there.. No luck in trying this again. It remains still... :'(  Just one time.......but I made video's.

Maybe it should try to clean the inner side of the motor, but I didn't see any documentation about this.

See  my  movies on YouTube:

Lisa Widget drive started for the first time in years

http://youtu.be/v-OR4VrnNbU

Lisa widget starting up part 2

https://youtu.be/5MeaBP2g37U

Lisa Widget starting up part 3

http://youtu.be/23Aw2moTSuA

If you get it going again, let it run for a while, especially in different orientations.

Apocryphal tales say that ProFile drives that screech like a banshee "get better" after running upside down for a while, since the lubricant works its way back into the bearings.

Don't know if that's true, but you don't have much to lose at this point.

OK. Started for a second and third time. Now it is running for an hour. I will let it run until I go to sleep.

I should fix the power a bit. Use some ductape( yes techknight...good point... ) to isolate and fix properly. Then I can turn it around, etc.

Awesome! Spin spin spin!

Would like to see the "wind up" from a dead stop.

@techknight

Do you mean a kind of roundup?

No. the wind up of the drive. You did a video on the drive already running. 

would like to see one from non-powered, to powered up and spinning. 

OK. Here is a movie from still to running.

Got a link? Embedded videos aren't working, apparently.

c

Is this better:

youtu.be/CTNr0uAiWwk

Or

On your video, I never hear the brake release. After the drive comes to speed - about 5 seconds or so, you should hear a "clunk" as the brake releases and then the drive should start to seek. When it seeks, it will make very distinctive "squeak" noises.

I don't know if the lack of brake release is because you are only providing power to the drive, and not any data signaling from the Lisa.

I think this has been covered, but you can read about adjusting the brake in Pina's book.

Yes. This is not going well. Sometimes the brake releases, but after that not much happens.

I'm not sure if this disk will work ever. But I will try it on a Lisa one day. That will not be easy.

I think it might be because the disk isnt getting up to full RPM? I know the servo controllers of HDDs are smart enough if it senses a problem with spindle speed, the rest will hang until it comes up to full speed. 

Inside the Widget is a glass scale used for head position feedback.  The scale is attached with glue and 30 years later on many Widgets the glue has failed.  This  commonly results the glass breaking causing all kinds of issues, the worst of is tiny fragments of glass loose inside the enclosure.  I fear the screeching noise you hear is due the glass causing a head crash…

Rick 

No strange sounds! Hope the glass is still OK!

BREAKING NEWS!!!!

With some spare parts I could test my Widget drive. And.... It is alive!!! The Lisa boots up nicely from it. So my efforts to revive it a succes!

See pictures:





I will report later about the "spare parts". I will also start a new subject about a new disk. That doesn't boot......

I thought your Lisa had no logic/mother board?

Edit: I love Lisas, but I cannot justify spending US$1000 on a computer I can't upgrade/repair (10 000 volts on a CRT).

@tanuki65

Repairing the Lisa is not in this post. I will report later about this.

Just like to inform all followers of this post that the Widget is working. Thats GREAT news if you realise that it was completly stuck and inclear if it would work ever.

What the heck are you displaying that on? The picture is too dark to tell but it doesn't look like a Lisa, even with the front bezel missing.

Here are some more pictures. Side panels are off. I'm cleaning the plastic.

My desk has not much space ....







View attachment 6614

Ah okay. I didn't see the skeleton of the metal frame or the drive cage.

I could never figure out how to remove the side panels.  Is it easy?

Yes. It is easy. Just 5 or 6 small screws reachable from inside. I washed them in a bath with washing powder and they look nice and clean now. I also removed the two bottom plates to clean them.

Ok. A nice video to end this topic! I have build in the widget drive. It still gets its power form an external PSU. A plain normai cheap power unit from an old computer. I ripped of all the extra wires and made a custom plug. Just with some glue and ductape.







I first switch on the hard disk and then the Lisa. Works fine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZboBCbx62us

Nice!

Nice but noisy.

Still nothing on how you got the drive running again???

The disk was revived bij turning it manually for a long time so the grease around the bearings softened.

But to see if it really worked I needed a working Lisa. I acquired one with a defective disk, floppy drive and video board. I used the other parts, like CPU, IO and memory cards to revive my own.

Congrats.

hey at least you got it working.

The lisa is one of those machines that I don't have any attachment to, and its up in the air whether I would own one or not.

I think I will leave the Lisa collecting to the purists because if I had one I would hotrod the hell out of it.

techknight said:

I think I will leave the Lisa collecting to the purists because if I had one I would hotrod the hell out of it.

Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with a "hotrod" Lisa.  I have 3 "SuperLisa's" and there is continued new Lisa hardware development.  The Lisa is an open-architecture system that was designed to be enhanced (like the Apple 2 line), adding to the system does not make it any less a Lisa.

Rick

Well the first thing I would do is perform modifications to get that clock speed up to at least 16Mhz. as it sits stock, its slowwwwww.....

If you want more power in a Lisa you would like my MISA or LACINTOSH.

https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/25212-is-it-a-lisa-is-it-a-macintosh/

I wonder if I could attach a SE/30 motherboard to it.

yeah I seen it. You can put an se/30 board in there no problem