Just purchased Mac 512k

Hey,

Welcome to the forums! I have learned almost all I know about computers from this forum...

I have two Mac SE's and so have a bit of experience dealing with Compact Macs. All I can say for that 512k, make sure you have the power cord, keyboard, and mouse, and you're good to go! Although I would recommend plugging it in for about 10 mins prior to use, as this will 'warm up' the electrical components and reduce strain on them when it's booted up. (Although if you live somewhere warm or even room temperature then this shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure that the Mac isn't cold when you boot it up.)

For a 512k, you'll probably need a system disk--512k's shipped without any sort of hard drive, so unless you have an external, you'll need a system floppy disk, or else you'll never get past the floppy disk question mark.

And as for opening it up, you'll need a long Torx-15 screwdriver. There are two screws down in the recess and two at the bottom edges of the case. You'll need the length in that screwdriver to get to the screws down in the recess. I am also told that in earlier compacts like the 512k, there is a fifth screw concealed within the battery compartment. (Oh...wait, I guess you just need to open the battery compartment! But still, knowing how to take the full case off would still be useful)

After you get the screws out, you'll need to find a way to separate the outer case from the main unit. I personally just use my hands and a tiny bit of force (and I always start applying force at the top), but you may find a different method. Those cases do need a bit of force, though...they're tight on there, even w/out screws.

Hope that helps, and keep us posted!

-Apostrophe

1) This is my first vintage Mac - anything I need to do before firing it up?

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Have a really sexy party? I don't know. It's pretty exciting no matter what you do before. Expect a bit of a disappointment if you don't have a startup disk.

After you get the screws out, you'll need to find a way to separate the outer case from the main unit. I personally just use my hands and a tiny bit of force (and I always start applying force at the top), but you may find a different method. Those cases do need a bit of force, though...they're tight on there, even w/out screws.

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I use the screwdriver itself. I'm left-handed, so I hold on to the handle of the case with my right hand. Then, with my left hand, I push down on the screw driver handle, which is still seated on the upper left screw (which is down inside the handle of the Mac case). I pull up with my right hand, and the case comes free.

I believe you will need a 400k boot disk for your mac. Anything earlier than the SE FDHD cannot read modern floppies. You could either purchase the original disks or make them with another vintage mac compatible with 400k and 800k disks. You can find sites on the web that have older system software downloads.

Thanks for these responses.... Some additional information.

Apostrophe - thanks for the tip on the torx screwdriver. I'll get one. With regard to the battery. My understanding is that there is one on the logic board - I purchased a replacement for that battery - so yes, I need to open her up. There is also the backup battery that is accessible without opening the case.

Here is what was included with the my 512K

1) Mac 512K stock/no upgrades

2) Keyboard (original - non extended version)

3) Mouse (original)

4) Power chord

5) All original manuals

6) All original software (MacWrite, MacPaint, all System/Startup Disks)

7) Other software (MacHome, Spellswell)

8 Microsoft MacEnhancer http://www.macgeek.org/museum/macenhancer/

9) Cutting Edge brand 800K external drive

I'm thinking of getting an HD20... I never had one with my original system and always wanted one!

I'd love to get ahold of the highest version of the system software that is supported by the 512k - I have no way to make the 400k disks after downloading....

Lumpy

I'd love to get ahold of the highest version of the system software that is supported by the 512k

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If so, you will find this thread of interest.

The Mac 128k and 512k just have a little battery compartment that you open and put a new pram battery. No tools required.

The battery looks like an ordinary AA cell, but closer examination will reveal that it's a 4.5 volt, hard-and-expensive-to-find mutant. That said, some folks have reported success (for a time, at least) using an AA battery in a pinch.

There is no battery on the logic board of a 512K, so you're good there.

The other battery (the 4.5V) really isn't all that expensive:

http://www.batteriesinaflash.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1546

Did you get any software with your "new" 512K? If you need software for it there is plenty on 400K disk for sale at B&R Computer:

www.noappleistoooldforus.com

You can also try eBay...at the very least I recommend you get MacPaint for this machine since it is the quintessential early Mac program (and probably one you remember quite well from your first 512K).

I ordered this battery from Radio Shack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3249777

Did you get any software with your "new" 512K? If you need software for it there is plenty on 400K disk for sale at B&R Computer:www.noappleistoooldforus.com

You can also try eBay...at the very least I recommend you get MacPaint for this machine since it is the quintessential early Mac program (and probably one you remember quite well from your first 512K).

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Scott is absolutely right, however depending on how you feel about software licenses, a lot of this old software is available on the Internet. Apple used to have a policy of giving away free system software updates, with the thought that you got a license (and free upgrades) when you purchased your computer (up until System 7.1, according to wikipedia). Of course, this didn't necessarily apply to application SW. That logic (which may or may not work for you), allows you to download replacement versions of this older software. I see that you have original disks, but if there's a problem with one of them, B&R is not your only recourse.

Further, a lot of this old software is abandonware, which means the publishers are no longer offering it for legal purchase. Much of it is available on the internet in various locations. A lot of said publishers don't care if you download it - Scott will say "But that's illegal!" and indeed, he's right, but many of these companies are not interested in cracking down on downloads of 20-year-old software. Whether or not this is an option for you depends on your conscience and your perspective towards / fear of violating current copyright law.

istar - good info - thank you.

I just also purchased an HD20 on eBay. It has a later/supported Mac 512K OS on it and includes the HD20 Init disk... So I should have a few options to boot from. The HD20 also comes with a bunch of programs already on it... Should be fun.

Regarding third party software available for download. I will look into this - my challenge - getting it on a 400K or 800K floppy. The good news here is that I have access to a Mac with System 8 with a CDROM and a floppy...

I think I can get the downloads onto a CD onto the System 8 Mac and then onto the floppy.

If system 8 wont support this, I can downgrade to system 7....

The System that you can get going on your Mac depends on the processor (a given), the amount of installed RAM (the Mac's name is a dead giveaway) and the kind of startup volume you can create for the Mac.

Without a RAM upgrade to at least 1MB (Dove MacSnap, scarce), don't aim any higher than System 6.0.8. An HD20 makes a nice home for your System Folder. JDW's link will give you background gen for download of 6.0.8, but its installation has the hurdle of 400kB/800kB floppy drives to overcome. Your acquisition of the HD20 may imply that 128kB ROMs came with it, or had previously been installed in the 512K. Do you know whether either of these is true? The ability to handle 800kB FDDs would make dealing with software that much easier.

de

don't aim any higher than System 6.0.8. An HD20 makes a nice home for your System Folder. JDW's link will give you background gen for download of 6.0.8, but its installation has the hurdle of 400kB/800kB floppy drives to overcome. Your acquisition of the HD20 may imply that 128kB ROMs came with it, or had previously been installed in the 512K.

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JDW's link will also tell you that a stock 512K will NOT run anything above system 4.1/Finder 6.0. A 512Ke can run System 6.0.x max. So the question lingers ... especially since his 512K came with a third party 800K drive which needs either the 128K ROMs or the HD20 INIT.

The good news is that the 512K can use AppleTalk with OS 8, which makes transferring files to the HD20 easy. ALternately you can try the much slower MacTerminal method from any computer, Windows, Mac or Linux.

Equil/Mac128

Some interesting comments on you part. I've done a lot of research and have some similar questions about the ROM chip in my (now in-transit) 512K

A few things:

1) The woman that I bought the 512K from said she did not think it had been upgraded - yet, she did tell me that the Cutting Edge-brand external floppy that was included was an 800K drive. Hmmm maybe she had a boot disk that had an HFS aware system/finder - like the HD20 Init. Such a disk was not mentioned by the seller.

2) I purchased the HD20 separately, from a different seller. It does come with an HD20 Init disk (a copy of one) and the seller also stated that it has System 6 on it. He advertised that it would work with the 512k... Having researched the 512k, I've read extensive threads on the fact that the 512K will not boot system 6 due to the 64K ROM limitations. I exchanged emails with him and he insists the HD20 will allow a stock 512K to boot into system 6. I doubt it will if I have a stock (64K) system. If that is the case, I can boot using the 512K's regular startup disk and then swap out the HD20's system files to a system that works with the stock 512K.

3) When I do get my 512K (Next Wed) how do I tell how much ROM is installed? - I'm wondering if it may not contain a 128K chip. It would be great and a bummer at the same time. I wanted a stock/original system, but it would be nice to not have to use the HD20 Init disk to boot up and see the HD20 drive and the 800K floppy drive and use system 6...

Final question - I have access to a Leopard Mac with no floppy. AND my father's old non-internet connected Power PC (8500 series I think) that is running system 8 and has a floppy and CD ROM drive. Can I download Mac 512K software on my Leopard Mac, burn it to a CD, take it to the Power PC, and create an 800K or 400K floppy for use on my 512K? I can downgrade the Power PC to system 7 if necessary.

That's a lot... having fun diving back into the the intricacies of the old Macs...

Lumpy

When you have your M0001 in front of you, opened with your new long-shafted Torx-15 and case-cracker, or Dog Cow's method above, you will be able to get a great deal of diagnostic info. from Mac128's http://www.mac128.com/m0001 to guide your investigations.

The ROMs may be identified with the stencilled 'HI' and 'LO' on the board, but, whether or no, they will be themselves numbered as 342-0341 and 342-0342 if they are 128kB, or 342-0220 and 342-0221 if they are 64kB. I hadn't realized that the Mac was not yet in your hands, so our further questions will have to wait for that union and your inspection.

de

1) the Cutting Edge-brand external floppy that was included was an 800K drive. Hmmm maybe she had a boot disk that had an HFS aware system/finder - like the HD20 Init. Such a disk was not mentioned by the seller.

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Apple's 3.5 External drive will work on a 512K without a special startup disk. It will also use 800K MFS formatted disks. It is possible that the Cutting Edge drive works similarly without using HFS.

2) I exchanged emails with him and he insists the HD20 will allow a stock 512K to boot into system 6. I doubt it will if I have a stock (64K) system. If that is the case, I can boot using the 512K's regular startup disk and then swap out the HD20's system files to a system that works with the stock 512K.

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Well if JDW had not done such exhaustive tests, I would wonder, but this seller is WRONG. Apple technically dropped ALL support for the HD20 starting with System 6. You will be able to reformat and copy a new system file onto the HD20 easily. You just won't be able to boot up from it.

3) When I do get my 512K (Next Wed) how do I tell how much ROM is installed? I'm wondering if it may not contain a 128K chip. It would be great and a bummer at the same time.

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As I have pointed out from time to time, there is no reason to use 64K ROMs unless you have some specific software that requires them (the original Guided Tour is not supported by 128Ks), or want to specifically push the limits of 64K technology. You can always pick up some 64K ROMs on a "dead" logicboard offered for sale on eBay from time to time. The ROMs on those boards are almost always good. But the 128K ROM's give you the ability to boot the HD20 which if you are using should make your life somewhat easier.

The EASIEST way to determine which ROM is in the Mac is to press the rear "debugger" key. If it is a 128K ROM, it will return a ">" character. If a 64K ROM it will return a System error dialogue box (the 128K ROM has a built-in debugger). You can use a paper-clip if there is no programmer's switch. You don't have to open the case or have any software.

Final question - I have access to a Leopard Mac with no floppy. AND my father's old non-internet connected Power PC (8500 series I think) that is running system 8 and has a floppy and CD ROM drive. Can I download Mac 512K software on my Leopard Mac, burn it to a CD, take it to the Power PC, and create an 800K or 400K floppy for use on my 512K? I can downgrade the Power PC to system 7 if necessary.

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System 8 Should work fine. You will need to transfer the disk images to the CD (don't attempt to open them under Leopard). Disk Copy should then make good copies. You may need an older version of Disk Copy 4.2 to make viable 400K disks. Again, make sure you do not mount the disk images in the OS 8 Finder, but only in Disk Copy when making the disks as there are various incompatibilities. In some cases, it may be best to transfer the disk images directly to your HD20 and open them with a period utility (i.e. copy the image to a disk then to the HD20 and make a disk natively). It's been awhile since I made disk copies this way (I like to use the direct MacTerminal method for these 64K ROM Macs because of occasional MFS compatibility issues and lack of space to keep more than one vintage mac operating full time). But there are others here who will have much advice.

8 Microsoft MacEnhancer http://www.macgeek.org/museum/macenhancer/

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The MacEnhancer is droolable. If you have drivers for it, please post them in some of the places where we might find them (eg Mac Driver Museum).

800KB floppy drives were on the market before Apple sold the Mac Plus. 800KB MFS was an accepted format and third party manufacturers provided patches for the HD20 INIT.

Mac128 and JDW: have I sent you my notes on early floppy drives?

Equil and Mac 128 - Thank you. Once I get the 512K in my possession, I'll let you know what I find w/regard tot the ROM. If I do have a 64K chip, I may try to get ahold of a 128K ROM to experiment with - it would be nice to not have to use the HD20 Init disk - and also have the ability to run System 6. We'll see.

Charlieman - MacEnhancer Software: http://www.macgeek.org/downloads/

The MacEnhancer is droolable. If you have drivers for it, please post them in some of the places where we might find them (eg Mac Driver Museum).

800KB floppy drives were on the market before Apple sold the Mac Plus...

Mac128 and JDW: have I sent you my notes on early floppy drives?

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The Mac Enhancer seems to do little more than provide printer and modem ports for parallel printers with applicable drivers. Since the disks provide system software they might have drivers for the hardware pre-installed, but just as likely the hardware may be plug and play, with the specific printer drivers doing all the work. Wonder if Microsoft continually updated the drivers for every printer released?

Yes, Apple's own 9/85 UniDisk used an 800K drive mechanism which some discovered the logicboard could be removed and could be used like the '86 3.5 Ext. drive with 64K ROMs, four months before the Plus was announced.

I don't recall receiving any notes. Just the technical manual which I need to start scanning.

Mac128 - Agreed on the MacEnhancer - I was wondering - how did Microsoft keep up with new drivers as new printers were produced? Maybe it was not necessary? The software may have been primarily for switching ports...

Another 512K running system 6 with an HD20? http://web.mac.com/mactarkus/iWeb/Mactarkus/The%20Mactarkus%20Collection/36481EC9-933E-489E-849F-818DB15665DF.html

how did Microsoft keep up with new drivers as new printers were produced? Maybe it was not necessary? The software may have been primarily for switching ports...Another 512K running system 6 with an HD20?

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I think somebody needs to drop Mactarkus a note and find out if he has a 512K or 512Ke. Otherwise all of JDW's hard work is debunked. However, I'm inclined to believe that like most, the distinction between a 512K and 512Ke is lost as they are physically identical except they have different model numbers: M0001W/M0001E (to say nothing of the M0001Ds!), not really much of a distinction and would be easy to confuse. Also, I doubt the Microsoft Word 5 he mentions, would have been easy to install via a 512K's 400K drive, albeit it could have come pre-installed on the HD20. In all likelihood, however, it is probably a M0001W that was updated to a 512Ke with ROMs and 800K drive, or it is an actual M0001E 512Ke (or M0001D variant).

Microsoft, or somebody, would have had to have updated the drivers for every printer the MacEnhancer could have supported, simply because the native PC drivers created by the manufacturers would not be understood by the Mac OS and it is unlikely a PC manufacturer would have written a Mac compatible driver in the off chance one owned a MacEnhancer. I suspect that the MacEnhancer itself contains a ROM which has all the software necessary to translate commands sent by the Mac OS to the serial port. However, converting serial commands to parallel is one thing, controlling attached hardware must have the appropriate signals generated by the OS for that specific printer. As evidenced by the Read Me text and in viewing the System disk itself, there is only an application and no Installer, indicating that a driver is likely not required for the hardware itself, the application handling all the port switching via the System. In any event it looks like Microsoft got out of this business quickly.

JDW: have I sent you my notes on early floppy drives?

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No, but since you brought up the subject, you might find this Feb. 1984 Byte Magazine interview with the original Mac team interesting. About half way through, Steve Jobs, Burrell Smith, Andy Hertzfeld, Bill Atkinson, and Chris Espinosa all talk about the Mac's multi-speed floppy disk control.

(I suppose one might also read deeper into the interview and note that Jobs cuts off poor Burrell twice as he's speaking. Makes one wonder if Jobs had a habit of doing that, pushing Burrell to the rock and cherry bomb throwing that brought about a restraining order some years later. This Folklore story provides another example of tension between Jobs and Burrell, which highlights why the Turbo Mac project was shelved. Personally, after reading Hertzfeld's book, I feel Steve should have axed Bob Belleville before he let an engineer the likes of Smith go.)

I think somebody needs to drop Mactarkus a note and find out if he has a 512K or 512Ke.

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I e-mailed him. We'll see.

So I checked in with Mactarkus. It turns out he is one of the two hosts of retromaccast.com - very nice guy. He double checked his Mac 512K/HD20 and found that his 512K was not stock. It had 1MB of RAM and an 800K floppy. He was guessing that the ROM was likely upgraded too.

So, it looks like System 6.0 is (still) not happening on the 512K for now.

I'll be back with the results of my 512K delivery later this week.

Lumpy

Remember heat is the worst enemy for a computer, if the processor gets too hot it'll slow down.

Its always worth opening the computer and giving the fan and grille + Motherboard a dust, cleaning the ram contacts and ram chips with contact cleaner of some sort.

Maybe you could put a heatsink on the processor

Remember heat is the worst enemy for a computer, if the processor gets too hot it'll slow down.

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I thought the worst enemies were EMP and crushers.

Rather than 'slow down' they tend to make logical errors and worst case go into thermal runaway.

Its always worth opening the computer and giving the fan and grille + Motherboard a dust, cleaning the ram contacts and ram chips with contact cleaner of some sort.

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Uh, your new to vintage compact Macs aren't you? You can do none of those things on a 512K, well you can dust the motherboard, but that is generally not an issue since convection cooling doesn't pull dust inside the case in the first place.

Ah Steve, thank you for being such a hard ass about the fan thing.

Its always worth opening the computer and giving the fan and grille + Motherboard a dust, cleaning the ram contacts and ram chips with contact cleaner of some sort.

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Uh, your new to vintage compact Macs aren't you? You can do none of those things on a 512K, well you can dust the motherboard, but that is generally not an issue since convection cooling doesn't pull dust inside the case in the first place.

Ah Steve, thank you for being such a hard ass about the fan thing.

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Well... I do hate dust annd.. yeah.

I've cleaned out quite a few vintage macs but never really paid attention to the specs of the machine while cleaning inside.

Here is the description of the Microsoft MacEnhancer from pages 60-61 of the 1985 Macintosh Expansion Guide [iSBN 0-8306-0301-8]:

Price: $249
The MacEnhancer is an expansion system for the Macintosh that provides the user with one parallel and two serial ports connected to one of the Macintosh's serial ports. Printer driver software is provided for a variety of printers. Terminal emulation software is also provided. This compact device provides the user with one IBM-compatible parallel port and two IBM-compatible serial ports. The MacEnhancer installation software makes it possible to use this device from within Macintosh applications.

Printer drivers are provided for the Epson FX, MX, and LQ series of printers. They are also provided for the Toshiba P1351, Toshiba P1340, C. Itoh Prowriter, H-P ThinkJet, IBM Graphics, Okidata Microline 92, and Okidata Microline 93 printers. Terminal emulation software supplied by the manufacturer allows the Macintosh to communicate with mainframes and with a variety of personal computers.

Connection is extremely easy. Only the cord for connection to the Macintosh is provided.

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Lumpy -- Congratulaions on your aquisition ! 8^ ]

Other than B & R that Scott mentions -- an excellent store, by the way -- here's another one > MacTreasures

Enjoy !

:b&w:

All:

I received the 512K late yesterday. A few things:

1) It's had the Mac Plus Upgrade - 800K internal drive and 128K ROM

2) It starts but it quickly shuts down... as though there is a short in the electrical supply. I cracked her open and found that if I flex the analog board a little, she'll power back on and stay on. But I have to flex the board just right by putting pressure on the rear top of the boar - pushing it toward the CRT. With the right pressure on the analog board, she stays powered - if I let off the pressure, she shuts down.

Beyond replacing the analog board - any tips on how to get this one running?

I'm disappointed that it's not original, and knew I was rolling the dice - but am having fun with it non the less. The case is in excellent shape (Light beige - no yellowing) and the CRT/Display quality is sharp with no burn in. A good example worth getting up/running.

Thanks,

Lumpy

You could be but a single dry joint, or a few dry joints, away from joy as was zeppelin87. The FBT is a prime suspect in this case, but tomlee59's description of the path to the promised land in the same topic is worth your consideration. A quarter-century or thereabouts of resonance in a large and hot component on the power/sweep board is a fine target during the first roundup of usual suspects.

de

Equill:

Thank you.

I was thinking the same thing after reading that document.

When the unit is started cold, it starts right up. Once she warms up, an electrical buzz is heard, then she shuts down. Flexing the power/sweep board gets temporary power back and she turns on for the amount of time I can keep the board flexed exactly right.

I have a solder iron. I removed the power/sweep board last night to look more closely at her. What do I need to do to trouble shoot a dry joint or two? Do I attack it from the back of the board? Re-heat each solder point and let it cool - in the hope of sealing the joint? Any guidance is appreciated - I am not what I would call experienced with a soldering iron - more of a novice.

I have a (used) replacement board on the way that is known to be good but it was $$ and I can return it in 7 days if I can get this old girl solid.

Lumpy

P.S. I ordered Pina's Macintosh Repair & Upgrade Secrets a few weeks ago - still waiting for it to arrive.

Update:

Watched a quick youtube video (or two) on how to solder electronics boards. Got my solder out and practiced on an old motherboard that I had lying around - then went and hit the main components (culprits) on the power/sweep board. Used new solder at most joints - hit about 30-40 joints...

Set the board back in the mac - powered up.... ran for a few minutes as usual - then electrical buzz to power down. No luck there.

Lumpy

In even the relatively-large masses of solder implicit in holding large (in mass or current-demand) components to a power/sweep board, the integrity of the board-to-trace or board-to-land adhesion can usually be assumed. Nonetheless, look askance at obvious messily-reworked joints, and especially if the expression "dog's-breakfast" comes readily to mind.

'Dry' joints are rather found between pigtails and pins and the solder, and/or the solder and the land or trace. The stabilizing effect of through-board holes can help, as can the use of hot-glue blobs post-soldering, to prevent movement of the solderees® during the all-important freezing of the solder after its application. Also critical to good joint formation is that the solder 'melt' should properly 'wet' and bridge the surfaces being attached. Fluxing and cleanliness (jointly, 'wettability') of surfaces, immobility of the joint, and rate of heat input and escape during freezing of the solder are important in assuring a good joint.

The frozen solder is a solid solution of malleable metals. Tension and cyclic stress can therefore, in time, affect a joint's adhesive qualities, even to the point of separation of the metals/metalloids from each other by 'crystallizing out' of the solution. Dull finish and granular appearance of a joint may be evident, but increased ohmic resistance to the point of open-circuit is the clincher.

The remedy? Remake the joints. This needs all the gear and attention of the original joint-making. It may need only a dab of fresh solder and flux, or it may need aspiration of the faulty solder and its total replacement. Adequate cleanliness, heat input/removal and stabilization of the parts is important. A resistance-check across remade joints will be useful, but the success of the complete operation may not be apparent before the job is completed and the board is back in service. None of the foregoing guarantees no shorting in an FBT, or that bung capacitors or barbecued resistors will have healed themselves. The components on power/sweep boards are big enough for physical inspection to suggest replacement, when that is needed, rather than resoldering, and rugged enough that no fear of damage from static (given normal and tasteful precautions) should be a consideration.

This peroration may take longer to read than it takes to resolder a joint, with practice. You can practise on something inconsequential, such as a current Acer PC, and be up and running in no time at all. Rots of ruck.

de

equill - thanks for the thorough explanation. I did go back and retouch the key solder points. Getting each point to flow and, where necessary, touching up with new solder. Probably not to the level of detail that you specify.

In any case, I believe I have localized the issue to the Flyback transformer. It is the culprit that buzzes noisily as the Mac powers down...

It looks like I'm out of bullets (unless the flyback wheel can be serviced by me). I have a replacement power/sweep board on the way.

Despite all of this, I'm enjoying getting this old dog back on its feet.

Lumpy

I believe I have localized the issue to the Flyback transformer. It is the culprit that buzzes noisily as the Mac powers down...
It looks like I'm out of bullets (unless the flyback wheel can be serviced by me).

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I have replaced flyback transformers. It is quite easy actually. The key is to get your hands on a replacement. It sounds like you were quite thorough in your soldering, however, if you did not re-work the flyback connections, you definitely should. Of course it may not be the flyback at all, but rather some vital component in line with the flyback that is failing once it heats up, especially now that you have verified most of the solder connections. Though the fact you can flex the board and restore power certainly indicates the primary culprit is a connection, vs. a defective part. I believe equill hints at using a desoldering pump or braid to completely clean off the old solder which may be incapable of re-adhering properly.

You will find Larry Pina's book quite helpful in diagnosing and repairing problems on the analogue board as Tom Lee's article.

As for restoring it, internal 400K drives are relatively easy to find on eBay. Also, you might consider getting an external 400K drive. You can always swap the internal for the external (though the 400K case bracket needs minor alteration to hold the 800K drive. The internal 800K drive bracket may also need to be modified to hold the 400K if that is even possible (I know the reverse is true as Pina's book outlines).

It doesn't sound like you really need the 64K ROMs based on how you have described using it. However, look for dead 128K/512K logicboards that turn up on eBay all the time for very little. As I said before, the ROMs are usually in perfectly fine condition and can be easily swapped out to restore your 512K to it's original condition. Did you indicate whether this was originally a 512K, or a 512Ke? The model number on the rear label will be M0001E or D or ED if the latter and W if the former. You can also verify by the serial number which will start with F6 followed by a number greater than 12 if it is a 512Ke. THe reason I think it may be a 512Ke is because the original owner told you there were not any upgrades. They would have known if it had had the 512Ke upgrade since it was by no means inexpensive and typically had to be performed by authorized Apple service personnel.

FYI, depending on the 800K drive installed, it may work natively with the 64K ROMs just like the Apple 3.5 External drive does, meaning you only have to swap the ROMs to play around with it. The 64K ROMs don't like to have external drives attached when one of them is an 800K for some reason (it makes a constant clicking noise).

Mac128 - if you know of a source of flybacks, point me there - I'll buy one just to see if I can revive the board. I did re-work the flyback connectors...

The trick of flexing the power/sweep board was very flakey - I'm not sure if there was another loose connection and it was a combo of problems.

I do not need the 64K ROMs - but I was looking for a stock example. I'm not a collector though - just looking to relive the time when I owned my original mac and also love messing with this stuff to see if I can get it to work.

It was an original 512K - ended in "W" not "E". The Mac came with all of the original software and manuals - including the "Plus Upgrade" manual. At the end of the day, I think the seller played dumb - "it started the last time I started it 10 years ago". She also told me she thought it was stock... and packed me the upgrade manual and receipt. Live and learn....

I'm still pretty happy with the unit. The case is very light beige and in excellent shape - a good example if I can get her running. It came with some good software and included a lot of vintage Mac books. I may chuck the MacEnhancer up on Ebay and see what it fetches. It came with 4 different sets of disks - they were updates... so thats how Microsoft kept up with new printers.

Regarding the 800K drive - I'm going to stick with it... I have the HD20, so at the end of the day, the 128K ROM and 800K drive are fine by me. I'll get to run OS 6 as well.

I'll be updating this thread until I get her running!

Lumpy

P.S. I got to feel the full effect of a CRT discharge today while removing the Anode Cap. After doing it successfully 3 times, I got whacked when I was pulling the power/sweep board to ready the unit for a replacement board. Let's just say I'll be buying the discharge tools tomorrow. Mother F'er that hurt.

Mac128 - if you know of a source of flybacks, point me there - I'll buy one just to see if I can revive the board.

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Not really. Usually off of a dead board. Let Tom Lee or others weigh in before you attribute the problem to the flyback though. Pina's book has part numbers for the flybacks if ti comes to that (I believe JDW's excellent spreadsheet may also have those part numbers as well as others you might be interested in), most of which you should still be able to find over the internet.

I may chuck the MacEnhancer up on Ebay and see what it fetches. It came with 4 different sets of disks - they were updates... so thats how Microsoft kept up with new printers.

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You're going to make Charlieman cry ...

P.S. I got to feel the full effect of a CRT discharge today while removing the Anode Cap. After doing it successfully 3 times, I got whacked when I was pulling the power/sweep board to ready the unit for a replacement board. Let's just say I'll be buying the discharge tools tomorrow. Mother F'er that hurt.

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No need to buy tools. All that's necessary is a screwdriver and an alligator clip. I've done it this way successfully every time I discharge one. FYI leaving it unplugged for a day will usually mitigate the strongest charge. However, if you are going to be working on it in this fashion, make sure you not only discharge the CRT, but avoid the high energy caps on the analogue board as well. Pina's book details the construction and FYI, you don't really need the resistor, at least I never have. As a precaution, I would always remove the logicboard before you discharge to avoid any ancillary damage.

I got to feel the full effect of a CRT discharge today while removing the Anode Cap. After doing it successfully 3 times, I got whacked when I was pulling the power/sweep board to ready the unit for a replacement board. Let's just say I'll be buying the discharge tools tomorrow. Mother F'er that hurt.

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What? And you're not dead? OMG!

Sorry, I'm not poking fun at lumpydog. I am just railing on those who contend the Anode Cap can be lethal. I suppose it can be if you nail yourself just right, with a higher than normal discharge, and if you perhaps have a weak heart. But again, I've never in my life heard of someone dying because of such accidents. But as lumpy said, it hurts when you do get smacked. I don't know how it directly compares, by I shorted 110VAC across my pinky finger once in a high school electronics class. Man! Got the blood flowing, let me tell you.

So did you use Tom Lee's discharge method? (Screen up to full brightness and then yank the AC power cord?)

What? And you're not dead? OMG!

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Laughing my ass off. As you said - not lethal. I've been shocked MUCH worse believe me. My mistake was in grabbing the case to get leverage - put my thumb on the ground screw. Stupid does not even begin to describe... So got what I deserved. I knew I was taking a short cut - won't do it again.

The main reason you'll usually hear about the dangers of CRTs is lawyers. Not to mention that most of the time when people talk about CRTs, they're often talking about larger colour CRTs used today, which pack a more lethal punch than the little 9" mono units used in the compacts.

I've been shocked by 240VAC (Australian mains voltage) twice. Scary as all Hell, but if you're lucky, and in good shape, survivable.

I've been shocked by 240VAC

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I was putting together a panel with a big power switch (ideal for Igor), which I had the wrong way round as I had to switch it up to turn it on, so I put my hand under the panel to turn the toggle switch round...... hello said 240V, 50hz, UK mains.

You're going to make Charlieman cry ...

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Don't worry Charlieman - if I do, I'll post all the disks where we can get to them.

No need to buy tools. All that's necessary is a screwdriver and an alligator clip.

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Nice! Thanks for that tip - I happen to have those things available.

I'll hold off on the flyback replacement to see if others chime in on this...

Even more to the point, lumpydog, is JDW's almost throwaway reference to the technique of preference by all except masochists.

So did you use Tom Lee's discharge method? (Screen up to full brightness and then yank the AC power cord?)

Click to expand...

de

Even more to the point, lumpydog, is JDW's almost throwaway reference to the technique of preference by all except masochists.

So did you use Tom Lee's discharge method? (Screen up to full brightness and then yank the AC power cord?)

Click to expand...

de

Click to expand...

Tried it today along with Mac128's non-resistor discharge tool. I'm feeling pretty good about not getting whacked by high voltage anymore...

Question: I just purchased a new (grounded) solder tool and a desolder bulb/sucker thingy. I can't for the life of me desolder some joints - the solder won't melt. It seems like the resistor (who's joint I am soldering) is somehow causing the solder to drain and not heat. At the risk of asking a serious noob question, am I missing something obvious here?

Lumpy

P.S. Having a blast trying to get this Mac up and running and presentable. I used h202 and oxi today to take a very yellow mouse and make it look brand new - wow (6 hours in the solution set out in the sun). Going to de-yellow the keyboard tomorrow. Oddly, the Mac's case looks great. Still waiting for a replacement sweep/power board and still looking to resurrect the exiting one.

Before:

(internals removed, just prior to dunking)

After:

(internals cleaned, lubricated and replaced)

No joke - all I did after putting it in the solution was rinse it. I did zero scrubbing.

... I can't for the life of me desolder some joints - the solder won't melt. It seems like the resistor (who's joint I am soldering) is somehow causing the solder to drain and not heat. At the risk of asking a serious noob question, am I missing something obvious here? ...

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Rational enough, but perhaps not obvious. Whether a blob of solder melts under an iron is the net effect of the old calories-in/calories-out bit. If the soldered-in component has a large thermal mass and a wide thermal path in, retention of heat to melt the solder may be impaired if the iron cannot quickly enough replace the calories that 'leak' into the component from the joint.

This is at least part of the reason why irons exist in sizes (wattages, and bit dimensions) from micro to those suited for connecting roof-gutter sections. Wattage is a time-dependent quantity (as is amperage, on which it is based), so a higher-powered iron is able to deliver heat to a given joint faster. You still don't wish to destroy the board or component, so you need to be able to touch/melt/slurp in one action, and then rest/cool the work before continuing, if need be. Sometimes connection of a heatsink to the work ('downstream' from the pont of heat-application) may help to preserve the component.

Best of all, you are enjoying what you are doing. May you continue to do so.

de

I used h202 and oxi... all I did after putting it in the solution was rinse it. I did zero scrubbing.

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Please post links to the exact substance and brand you used or PM them to me.

Here's another de-yellowing example that is just incredible. I wrote Peter Dreisiger twice asking for the exact substance he used, but he must have fallen off the face of the planet because he refuses to reply.

I can't wait to de-yellow my IIgs keyboard with whatever it is you gentlemen are using!

Please post links to the exact substance and brand you used or PM them to me.

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JDW:

Below is a pic of the exact items that I used - along with a link to the forum that discusses this approach.

Here is exactly what I did:

1) In a plastic tupperware - poured the 3% hydrogen peroxide solution up to a level that could fully submerge the mouse.

2) Added (more or less) one tablespoon of the powdered Oxi cleaner to the hydrogen peroxide and mixed - some powder did not dissolve - I left it in the bottom (and it eventually dissolved during the day).

3) Dropped in the (electronics removed) mouse and set it out in the sun in my driveway (it was only 38 degrees out - temp should not matter). A source of UV light is the 3rd ingredient. Without it - you get nothing.

4) Rotated the container 180 degrees after 3 hours

I left the mouse/solution out for just under 6 hours then rinsed the mouse off in fresh water.

The results were astounding. A mouse that looks brand new - nice gloss finish with no noticable degredation of the plastic.

My observations:

- The hydrogen peroxide percentage was only 3% (see picture) - if you read the thread below, some people are working with 30-40% hydrogen peroxide solutions. I think it's not necessary and is dangerous. I personally think these guys are nuking their plastics way more then they need to...

- I'm not sure I needed to rotate the container or not. The bottom of the mouse was never exposed to sun - yet it de-yellowed. I think the UV light is a catalyst for the solution and does not need to directly hit the yellowed surface - I could be wrong.

- The apple logo can be damaged by this process (as shown in one of the threads I read about this process) be sure to pop out the apple logo on any parts with the apple rainbow colored logo - there is a hole behind it that you can use to pop the logo out - it is held on with a double sided clear sticky pad - light/persistent pressure from behind will pry it lose. The paper label with serial number on my mouse was not effected. Here is a logo that was damaged during this process: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2976915302_c7147f084e.jpg?v=0

- Some other de-yellowing methods include making a paste so you do not have to find enough hydrogen peroxide to fully submerge these parts - the paste uses a third substance (corn starch, etc) mixed with the hydrogen peroxide and Oxi to hold the solution to the surface -rather than submerge it .

Today, if the sun comes out, I will try to de-yellow a badly yellowed HD20 case and my keyboard. I will post before/after pictures and any more observations.

Links:

Picture of the exact items I used (all purchased at Wallgreen's):



Thread on deyellowing: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=12566

Equill - thank for this explanation - I did figure out that holding the iron away to heat up and then going back in helped...

I wrote Peter Dreisiger twice asking for the exact substance he used, but he must have fallen off the face of the planet because he refuses to reply.

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I wouldn't take it personally, it's only been 8 days. :beige:

From reading his post, I am not sure having the exact brand would be helpful to you in Japan, though Pacific rim products might be common. However, I think he is referring to a standard pre-mix hair salon peroxide coloring treatment, essentially the same formula described in the link he references. That link basically describes how to make a similar gel. I would suggest going to a hair salon supply store and asking for a generic peroxide gel, then compare a few for ingredients. Most likely they will all be the same. They are designed to remove color, as in "peroxide blonde". Test on a few sacrificial pieces of yellowed plastic. Another related link discusses the amount of peroxide in the container and it ranges from 8%-20%, the higher the content the faster the removal. This method may be easier to acquire than locating a similar concentration of H2O2.

BY THE WAY: THIS INFO REALLY NEEDS TO BE ADDED TO THE 68K WIKI so that it does not get lost in the mostly un-searched archives of this forum. :beige:

Here are more examples of de-yellowing that I've done per my prior post in this thread.

Today I put my HD20 case in the H202/Oxy solution and left it outside for 6 hours. Note that I actually used 1/2 water and 1/2 3% Hydrogen Peroxide solution. You can really cut the H202 and get good results.

Case before (you can see the footprint where the Mac used to sit on top):



Case in the solution (used clear plastic to allow max UV penetration):



Case outside in the sun (UV):



Case after:



This is not a bleaching process - it does not over-whiten. Really amazing results... Gets the plastic back to the original color.

I have my keyboard surround in the solution now - sitting in my basement with a UV bulb. Pics forthcoming. I will add them to this post.

Lumpy

Here are more examples of de-yellowing that I've done per my prior post in this thread.

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That is really just amazing as are some of the pics on those other sites.

I know it's not bleaching since the color is not overly-lightened and the discoloration is the result of a chemical process, not an added pigmentation one. However, just what is happening here to return these cases to their almost mint condition? Is it literally reversing the chemical process within the plastic that originally turned it yellow?

It is also interesting to note, the very UV light that caused the Macs to yellow in the first place, is being used to reverse the damages as well. I wonder how long it will take for the yellowing process to begin again, once exposed to UV sources? Has the chemical reversal process lowered the plastics resistance to future yellowing or enhanced it? I guess only time will tell. Wonder if it would be worth spraying a transparent UV coating over the case and what that would do to the texture.

Without my wishing to rain on anyone's parade, let me refer back to an earlier discussion in these forums, and the posts that in turn hang off that discussion. We already have the makings of a good Read Me First for case-yellowing.

It is in the nature of ABS plastic to age chemically and irreversibly, not least for the same reasons that inspired the invention and use of plastics: they are cheap, nasty and easily-formed into shapes. True it is that a strong oxidizer may remove an infinitesimally-thin, strongly-coloured degradation product, as well as oxidizable dirt, from a Mac case. However, because the purely chemical discolouration of a case is oxidative in nature (there is far more free oxygen in air than there is reductive gas), use of an oxidant is not going to reverse it. ABS already contains reducing agents to prevent rapid yellowing, which will delay further yellowing as each new surface is exposed by abrasion, solution, crumbling or powdering. However, when the reductant has been oxidized, as is its purpose, the plastic has no further defence, and all that is possible is to begin the process again.

It should also be understood that hydrogen peroxide is perfectly capable of breakdown in the absence of UV radiation. Indeed, since UV light is one of the causes of case-yellowing, isn't it at least slightly perverse to try to accelerate the production of nascent O to remove yellowing with the same agent that has already been responsible for the yellowing? Hydrogen peroxide breakdown occurs readily enough on the surface irregularities of any but a microscopically smooth surface, let alone the textured surface of a Mac case. The only potentially beneficial effect of direct sunlight is to raise the reaction temperature of the process.

It is not sheer defeatism that causes many Mac owners to clean their Mac cases well, and then accept their colours as Nature will make them. There are quite a few counter-arguments to fretting unduly about case-yellowing.

de

...when the reductant has been oxidized, as is its purpose, the plastic has no further defence, and all that is possible is to begin the process again. It should also be understood that hydrogen peroxide is perfectly capable of breakdown in the absence of UV radiation.

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But even without the "defense" one could argue that since the plastics are restored to what looks like "new" condition again, and in light of the fact it may take at least a year in direct sun for the plastics to yellow so badly again, it would seem to me to still be worthwhile to do this. For even if one could show me that the plastics would yellow again, and even at TWICE the rate of new plastic yellowing, I could still content that the plastics would look like new for me for several years at least if I keep the machine out of direct UV light most of the time.

Also, in the Vintage Computing thread that Lumpy linked to, it says that at least one person did the same tests in a dark room (i.e., without UV light) and found that the case was not de-yellowed after soaking for several hours. The same alchemist then claimed that he did the same test in UV light and it produced the results we see in Lumpy's photos. But then again, those same alchemists also claim that you need 20% or higher concentrations of H202 to perform the task well, and Lumpy's 1.5% H202 mixture appears to prove that wrong. Which makes me wonder how important H202 is at all if a mere 1.5% works!

But then again, those same alchemists also claim that you need 20% or higher concentrations of H202 to perform the task well, and Lumpy's 1.5% H202 mixture appears to prove that wrong. Which makes me wonder how important H202 is at all if a mere 1.5% works!

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Yes. Something else, the "Oxy" compound contains sodium percarbonate, which when mixed with water releases H2O2 and sodium carbonate, the latter used to HELP dyes bond with fibers, not extract. It is some great irony that all that is employed here is mostly H202 and water, with the mixture's PH elevated by the sodium carbonate. UV, which normally is the enemy, is then used to activate the process.

And just for the record, here's the original published research into case yellowing:

http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/189

And according to this Vintage Macs post, "Bromine molecules" are the root cause of the yellowing, which the H202 is supposed to "neutralize."

Of course, complete immersion of an entire classic Mac case is not practical for many of us, so a gel version of Lumpy's mix would seem to be in order; which, from what I have read, is simply a matter of adding some corn starch.

The latter author's claimed experience might have been easier to believe if he had not miscalled acrylonitrile-butadiene-styrene copolymer (ABS) 'acetal-butadiene-styrene'. There is a significant difference. Implicating bromine (the next-heavier halogen above chlorine) may or may not be accurate chemically, depending on the proportion of flame-retardant in the plastic mix, but the similarity of bromine (an oxidizer) to chlorine (an oxidizer) surely has implications for trying to clean or 'undiscolour' oxidized and yellowed ABS with chlorine-based bleaches? The unanswerable point remains: by the time that yellowing shows, the incorporated antioxidants in the yellowed plastic have already been exhausted. There is no way of 'retrofitting' more antioxidant into the solid plastic. The available options are to:

1) clean off the surface yellowing (by whatever means and however much); then

2) coat the ABS plastic with UV-opaque clear finish, and to keep the cases away from heat and further UV-irradiation, or

3) live with the yellowing as it reappears.

Mac owners must follow their own courses. Both of the above courses are defensible, given that the treatment is revealed to a buyer along with a Mac's electrical and software specification.

de

Of course, complete immersion of an entire classic Mac case is not practical for many of us

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I've been so impressed by the non-damaging cleaning effect of this process that I am going to do my Mac 512K's case as well - it is slightly darker on the left side - something that is now noticable as it sits on top of the very nice/clean beige HD20.

I have a large clear tub - I'm going to try it next weekend. I will be seriously cutting the peroxide percentage to get enough liquid to fill the tub. We'll see how it goes (how low can you go!?)

One other observation - I left my keyboard case in the solution last night. I had been putting these items outdoors to get UV light. It was late, so I put the keyboard in my basement under a UV bulb..... and shut off the lights (and the UV bulb) on my way out of the basement - duh. I forgot that the master light switch cuts all ceiling lights/outlets in my basement. Despite the fact that the keyboard was in the solution - with the absence of UV light, it stayed the same. The yellowing did not budge or fade. So - on the way to work this morning I left it in my driveway - should be clean by the time I get home.

Indeed, since UV light is one of the causes of case-yellowing, isn't it at least slightly perverse to try to accelerate the production of nascent O to remove yellowing with the same agent that has already been responsible for the yellowing?

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It's the homeopathic approach, I guess ;-)

Mainly aimed at equill: Two theories. Is it possible that bleaching case plastics works by modifying the "colour" of fillers such as calcium carbonate? An oxidizer cannot easily change the filler (in original state) chemically, but may reverse other contaminants.

Calcium carbonate has its own luminescent properties that we may not understand in conjunction with ABS. Perhaps if you oxidize surface dirt discolouration (ie not the ABS itself), sufficient light will penetrate that you don't see ABS discolouration. Sharp, tiny crystals can reflect an awful lot of light.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence, here and elsewhere, that a variety of actions can produce temporary respite in case-yellowing. I write 'respite' because some amount of yellowing is removed. I do not use 'reversal' because that is impossible. The newly-exposed less- or un-yellowed plastic is now the virgin and unprotected lamb among the lions of atmosphere, irradiation, solution, heat, grunge and what-have-you. Only an impervious coating or an inert environment can preserve the new status quo of case-condition, else begins again the deterioration of the topmost surfaces of the ABS.

'Twas ever thus. It is somewhat forlorn to suppose that a disposable case material that was not intended to last forever can be induced, after the event, to become imperishable.

de

I for one am fully aware that the plastics will yellow again. And indeed, they will likely yellow under the same conditions (heat, UV light, presence of smoke, etc.). But the "big deal" for me is that with this technique, you can make the plastics "look like new." No, not just take away "a little bit of the yellowing." From what I see, it takes MOST of it away. And as I posted earlier, even if it takes a few years for that yellowing to come back, I can enjoy a rather "new looking" case during that time, and then repeat the process again to remove the yellowing again.

So while it does not stop yellowing, it does appear to kill it for as long as you wish to repeat the process. And while I am sure there must be some "limit to it," it is unlikely to be reached in my lifetime. (For if one repeats the process every 3 years for 40 years, that's a mere 13 times.)

2) coat the ABS plastic with UV-opaque clear finish, and to keep the cases away from heat and further UV-irradiation

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Yes that raises an interesting point. As does JDW.

If you coat the case with a UV coating, while it might be possible to keep it away from most UV sources, if one intends to use it, the heat the unit itself produces would most likely initiate the yellowing process. Therefore, you'd have a case that yellowed from under the UV coat.

As JDW points out, one could continue to "clean" a case over the life of one's possession of it, but if it is coated, that would effectively end the ability to de-yellow it further. Truly then the only way to preserve it once, cleaned would be to display it under UV glass in a temperature controlled environment and never use it.

Jobs may well be onto something with that unibody aluminum. If only he had a nostalgic streak for the rest of us.

I can't help but wonder what the limit is to "refreshing" an old Mac case. It would be helpful to know what is actually happening during the process and whether any damage is actually occurring to the plastic, such as brittleness or texture abrasion.

One last thought, the Vintage Computer article indicated that companies were aware of the color problem (and Apple was already acutely aware of the Lisa 1's tendency to turn orange, per Kunkle's AppleDesign), and added more blue to the mix which would mitigate the potential to yellow for some additional time. This might explain why in this thread Sanman observes that the documented PMS 453 Mac color chip was more green than an unopened pristine keypad. It only now also occurs to me that an unopened keypad is not immune to the effects of yellowing simply because it is not exposed to the air and UV, and that the actual color of the final factory plastics is somewhat less yellow than his keypad and somewhat less green that the PMS chip.

Update on getting the 512K up and running.

To recap - I received the 512K and it would start/run for about a minute and then shut down with a buzzing noise followed by a repeated "whup", "whup" cycling noise. I removed the case cover and found that flexing the analog board would get momentary return of power. Given that movement restored power, some participants in these forums thought "dry joints" may be the culprit. I desoldered/resoldered many of the components on the analog board - but the same problem persisted.

So I ordered a known working/used analog board. Hooked it up Tuesday. SAME EXACT problem. Crap - but.... that's progress at least (Analog board is likely not the problem). I disconnected the CRT and powered up just the analog and logic board.... same problem/sounds.... So it was looking like the logic board was the culprit. From what I read in Pina's book - I was hearing what is refered to as a "flupping noise" - which apparently happens when the analog board protects itsleft from too much power. Sometimes caused by shorted circuits (among other things).

So I start to think about it and recalled that, when I first inspected this mac, there appeared to have been some liquid spilled down the back right-side of the unit. It was a small amount, but it had flowed around the AppleTalk connection. I had cleaned it up and forgot about it. I pulled the logic board and looked closely and found that there was some dried/flaking corrosion around the AppleTalk port on the board. I also noted that flexing the analog board would actually flex the logic board in this area... So I decided to clean that area of the logic board - but I could not really get to it.

Hmmm - somewhere on these boards I saw a post about washing a logic board. Searched... yup - people have washed their logic board and found it fixes some problems.... Many recommended the dishwasher - no soap. So I tried it. Then left it in front of a fan for a day to ensure it was dried out.

Got home last night - hooked everything up. BINGO - a rock-solid working Mac 512K! Adjusted the video and voltage pot. All good.

So I hooked up the HD20 that I purchased on eBay and installed System 6.0.8 and have been playing - good stuff! I have been able to use an older Mac 8600 with a CD and floppy drive to download software and move it onto a floppy - then onto my Mac.

New problem. I put the PRAM battery in last night. I've tested the battery and it works - but the Mac will not accept my date and time input. As soon as I click out of the time/date fields it resets to the default time/date.

Any advice? Is the PRAM chip dead? The battery connection to the board looks ok and tests ok.

it would start/run for about a minute and then shut down with a buzzing noise followed by a repeated "whup", "whup" cycling noise. ... I was hearing what is refered to as a "flupping noise" - which apparently happens when the analog board protects itsleft from too much power. Sometimes caused by shorted circuits (among other things).
I also noted that flexing the analog board would actually flex the logic board in this area...

Any advice? Is the PRAM chip dead? The battery connection to the board looks ok and tests ok.

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I don't think you ever mentioned the "whup", "whup" noise, just the buzzing. That's a dead giveaway. :beige: Most likely in the area you describe you had a substance that was shorting the reset switch or power connector. I cannot for the life of me figure out how flexing the powerboard affected the logicboard, unless the connector cable was moving just enough to flex the logicboard connector (as they are both rigidly isolated by the chassis).

As for the time settings, it may not be a hardware problem since that info is also stored in active RAM when the power is on and the RTC is responsible for triggering the active clock. The battery only powers the RTC when the mains are shut down and has nothing to do with active RAM settings. Try starting off the floppy disk only and see if you can set the time (if you have an earlier system try that as well). Also, change other settings in the control panel and see if any of those (like volume) reset before or after restart. It is possible that System 6.0.8 writes more P-RAM data than the 512K's limited 20 byte RTC chip will accommodate (the Plus had 256 bytes). I would try zapping the P-RAM. Hopefully that will force a wipe of the current data and let 6.0.8 write new data in the order you set it. If none of that works, I suppose some kind of bit-rot could be affecting the chips RAM.

512K:

My original analog board did not always produce the "whup, whup" noise - which is why I did not focus on that - it generally started and ran fine but degraded after a minute or so and then would sometimes make that noise if I tried to restart. The replacement analog board consistantly made that noise - which helped to narrow down the cause.

Regarding the flexing - where the rear of the analog board is attached (via two screws), pressure on that area also puts pressure on the logic board - right where the apple talk port is... Enough to move it and perhaps break any short circuit temporarily (I'm only guessing)?

Regarding the PRAM - I did boot off of the system 1.1g floppy and was not able to set the time... This was an issue prior to installing system 6.0.8. I can change the mouse speed settings and they seem to hold - until reboot - then all settings are lost. Any changes to the time/date immediately revert back to defaults... I'll further trouble shoot and see what I find. I'm away until Sunday - I'll report back.

Great idea to reset the PRAM - I'm away until Sunday - I will give that a shot.

Since the dishwasher has been mentioned again, I would like to add that the SE/30 is not the only machine in need of logic board re-capping. The capacitors on the original 128k and 512k motherboards could use replacement as well. Indeed, I replaced the caps on my 512k board and found that some minor screen anomalies went away. For this reason, I have put the capacitor values at the bottom of my analog board parts spreadsheet.

I can change the mouse speed settings and they seem to hold - until reboot - then all settings are lost. Any changes to the time/date immediately revert back to defaults...

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I still don't quite follow the flexing issue, but so long as it works now.

The fact that the settings take in RAM and the clock keeps good time, other than not being able to be set, could mean that the PRAM battery connection is not making it to the logicboard. Pin 11 (opposite the keyed end of the power connector) carries the battery power to the board. Check continuity via the pin and the RTC chip. Battery power enters the RTC chip (CLK) via pin 8 (closest to the CPU). If all is well there, the battery contacts may have some corrosion where it attaches to the analogue board, so check continuity between Pin 11 and the battery on the analogue board.

But first try to reset the PRAM. If that fails and power is getting to the RTC chip, then you may well have some kind of bit-rot in the 20 bytes of RAM and the RTC chip will need to be replaced. Not sure how easy that will be without cannibalizing another board.

UPDATE: To reset the PRAM, visit Charlieman's excellent website and review the Power User Manual's excerpts. Do a page search for "parameter" to quickly find the section on resetting your PRAM.

Jags House Also has rounded up some tips from around the web. And offers some additional advice. I'm actually not sure the exact way to do this on a 128K-Plus, so you should try all the methods.

I would further try setting the clock time, then immediately closing the Control Panel, rather than clicking outside the clock settings field. Perhaps that will retain the settings. It is unlikely installing a PRAM battery upside down would harm the board, but anything is possible.

Since the dishwasher has been mentioned again, I would like to add that the SE/30 is not the only machine in need of logic board re-capping. The capacitors on the original 128k and 512k motherboards could use replacement as well. Indeed, I replaced the caps on my 512k board and found that some minor screen anomalies went away. For this reason, I have put the capacitor values at the bottom of my analog board parts spreadsheet.

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JDW - excellent spreadsheet.

We both were mentioned in the latest retromaccast: http://cdn4.libsyn.com/retromaccast/RetroMacCast_103__Sonata.m4a

Have you given the de-yellowing process a try?

James & John have honored me with a mention in a couple more past episodes of RetroMacCast too. I certainly enjoy their program.

I've not tried the de-yellowing process yet because I cannot find all the ingredients here. Yes, we have 3% bottles of peroxide here, but I would need to have a relative or friend send me a tub of that "OxiClean Stain Remover." I'm quite eager to try it once I can obtain the OxiClean!

but I would need to have a relative or friend send me a tub of that "OxiClean Stain Remover." I'm quite eager to try it once I can obtain the OxiClean!

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JDW, I would be shocked if Japan did not have a similar "Oxy" product. It is simply a mixture of sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate or "soda ash". Look in the laundry section of your shops for "whiteners" which contain only these ingredients. That will be the stuff.

If you insist on the name brand, you can just check out their website. Perhaps they will ship to Japan. However, their website verifies that their product is fully biodegradable that breaks down to oxygen and soda ash, with a little bit of blue food coloring.

I wrote Peter Dreisiger twice asking for the exact substance he used, but he must have fallen off the face of the planet because he refuses to reply.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't take it personally, it's only been 8 days. :beige:

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Well, it's closer to two weeks now, so sorry for the delay (I've been pretty flat out of late) — that said, I've only received one message on this subject, and that was on the RetroMacCast site.

From reading his post, I am not sure having the exact brand would be helpful to you in Japan, though Pacific rim products might be common. However, I think he is referring to a standard pre-mix hair salon peroxide coloring treatment, essentially the same formula described in the link he references. That link basically describes how to make a similar gel. I would suggest going to a hair salon supply store and asking for a generic peroxide gel, then compare a few for ingredients.

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Mmmm. I might be wrong here, but given that the manufacturer only lists Australian and New Zealand contact numbers, I too would be surprised if they exported their products to Japan.

Anyway, to add a couple of points to the discussion, the gel I've used (thus far) contains a mixture of hydrogen peroxide (12% V/V) and phosphoric acid (concentration unknown), and, while it has produced some good results, it has also left a bit of spotting (probably from variations in the thickness of gel).

Like I said, I've been a little flat out of late, but once things settle down a bit, I am going to try using a straight solution (assuming I can find a retail supplier); while the gel is probably better suited to pieces of plastic that are too large or awkward to immerse in a tub of peroxide, I suspect that the solution will give better, and more consistent results.

If I get around to this before the thread winds up, I can post some details and comparisons here.

Cheers,

Pete

If I get around to this before the thread winds up, I can post some details and comparisons here.

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Like old soldiers, these threads never die. They are always lurking around somewhere deep in the forum archives. :beige: (not as eloquent as MacArthur's speech, but you get the point).

I'm sure we all look forward to your results whenever they come! Just look up the thread and it'll be like it never faded away.

Mac 128 - Thanks for updating your post on resetting the PRAM. So far, no luck via the reset method....

I've tried booting from System 1 (via Disk) and System 6.0.8 (HD20) - the clock settings and date settings revert to default when closing the control panel or moving to another setting within control panel - after changing the date or time.

I found another symptom - if I select Alarm Clock from the Apple menu, the OS freezes up... I wonder if anyone else would not mind trying to remove their battery and seeing if their 128K or 512K Mac responds the same way (freeze on launch of Alarm Clock and/or reverts to defaults when entering time/date).

My multimeter is not available at the moment - I leant it to a friend and will test some of the battery flow tomorrow.

Real Time Clock failures in other models have been discussed here previously (use the search). This sounds like RTC to me.

Hmmmm - searched for "RTC" already and found nothing of any great help.

Searching on "Real and Time and Clock" - nothing jumping out at me in the search results that I see...... I'll keep poking around.

Charlie

Hmmmm - searched for "RTC" already and found nothing of any great help....Searching on "Real and Time and Clock" - nothing jumping out at me in the search results that I see.

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Ditto. In fact searching for it on Google turns up nothing pertaining to this issue. I don't recall seeing it come up here, so I took a look at the old archives (which are unsearchable) and found nothing there either.

I take it the RTC is prone to failure in old Macs? If so, are there replacement options aside from cannibalizing old boards?

Wally makes a few good point re RTC in this thread:

http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=686

I forgot to mention Old SoftWare.Com as an online place to buy new-in-box & used boxmax software, too. lol

Sorry sorry for the mixup!

Once again -- the 3 online stores are ....

1] MacTreasures

2] Old SoftWare.Com

3] B & R Computer Services

:b&w:

Wally makes a few good point re RTC in this thread:http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=686

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That's the one I found too. However, I don't think the problem is the same, though the solution may be. Big Bird's clock would not count normally, a problem which lumpydog does not seem to be having. His software interface seems to have a problem writing to the PRAM itself, even though it maintains other settings, even following power down. Wally does bring up some interesting points about the VIA routing signals into and out of the RTC. I don't pretend to understand the intricacies involved in the discrepancy preventing the retention of the clock setting vs. others though. Or for that matter how the PRAM chip stores data. Could it be that the chip suffers from bit-rot and the portion of the RAM where the clock settings are stored is physically inaccessible (assuming it stores specific data in a specific order like regular RAM). Does the ROM startup routine check the PRAM as well?

The fact that going through the dishwasher solved another seemingly unrelated problem, suggests that there might be something else impeding the clock settings on the board, assuming they travel different signal paths than the mouse and volume settings.

Involving only 8 pins to solder, I would think the RTC should be replaced at this point baring any other input. Perhaps just de-soldering the chip, cleaning underneath it and replacing it will be enough.

The apple logo can be damaged by this process (as shown in one of the threads I read about this process) be sure to pop out the apple logo on any parts with the apple rainbow colored logo - there is a hole behind it that you can use to pop the logo out - it is held on with a double sided clear sticky pad - light/persistent pressure from behind will pry it lose. The paper label with serial number on my mouse was not effected. Here is a logo that was damaged during this process: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2976915302_c7147f084e.jpg?v=0

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I've been quite curious about this since your original posting. I spoke with my father recently about that Oxiclean, and when used on clothing stains he said it "works wonders." So despite Mac128's encouragement for me to use another brand, I asked my father to send me a small tube of the stuff, as I have two small children with attire stained badly enough to warrant a dose! Plus, with Lumpydog's technique working wonders with virtually no H202 at all (less than 1.5%, from what I see), I can't help but wonder if that OxiClean isn't doing most of the job on its own.

Anyway, I've been worried about the labels because I plan to dip the chassis of my SE/30 in this miracle mixture. While not seen in any of the photos I've placed on Flickr, there is a patch of yellowing toward the back of the case, just above the analog board. It's clear that heat has caused this. I am also curious to see if the OxiClean mixture will make the entire case go back to the new platinum color UNIFORMLY. I certainly don't want to see the yellowing be reduced to the same degree in all places, leaving the machine looking spotty as it does now.

At the same time, I don't want to see my labels damaged or peel off either. And while the label on Lumpy's mouse was apparently not affected, I am curious if all labels will fair so well. I'm also curious how the gray colored paint on the inside of the compact Mac's housing will do after a few hours soaking in this mix. I don't see why labels would be completely unaffected when the Apple logo stands to be utterly destroyed as shown in the photo Lump links too. That's frightful!

I am excited about the potential from this yellow-killing mixture, but quite anxious about it too!

JDW:

A few comments:

1) I have experienced no collateral damage thus far. That is to say, no logos, screened on labels or serial number labels have been harmed or faded. I did remove the square Apple logo from my HD20 case by popping it out of the case (push from the hole behind it). I personally think the guys in the de-yellowing thread, that I linked to earlier, have been using WAY overkill solutions at 30-40% Hydrogen Peroxide. I'm pretty sure at the 3% to 1.5% solution that I've used, the color apple logo would have been fine without removal. The paper label on the bottom of my mouse and the serial number label on my HD20 look fine.

2) If you cant remove the logo, you might try masking tape... I have not yet tried this approach - I would not recommend it over a paper label.

3) Regarding uneven yellowing and uniformity after the process. I promise you will be amazed. My HD20 had the footprint of the Mac that sat atop it... a halo of yellow around it (see pictures). You can't find it now - no trace - zero. My mouse had some deep yellow spotting (see the pictures). No sign of it now. By the way, the pictures really don't do justice to the result.

4) The insides of the HD20 case (same finish as the Mac case) was not effected in any way that I can see.

At the diluted levels that I've used, I've seen highly effective results and no damage to innocent parts/pieces. I'm excited for someone else to try this - the results are extremely gratifying and worth the hassle to find a the H202, Oxi, a clear tub and a sunny day. It's WAY to easy and appears to be non-damaging in any way.

I'm going to do my 512K Mac case this weekend (big clear tub that I have in my attic) and will post results. I am going to just pop out the apple logo. I'll let you know how the rear plastic label and the paper serial number label fair. It will be a very diluted mix... I'll post pictures.

Lumpy

P.S. To everyone else - I'm trying to find some time to tackle the RTC issue. I have just not had time.... One thing I did notice is the the R16 (capacitor?) which is next to the RTC chip, appears to maybe be compromised. It's hard to tell because these things are so damn tiny.

with Lumpydog's technique working wonders with virtually no H202 at all (less than 1.5%, from what I see), I can't help but wonder if that OxiClean isn't doing most of the job on its own.

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As I posted earlier, Oxiclean is mostly sodium percarbonate and to a lesser degree sodium carbonate, which when combine with water, the sodium percarbonate BREAKS DOWN INTO H202!

In other words, whatever percentage of H202 is already in your liquid solution, the "Oxy" product increases it along with the PH level. So you are being mislead by only looking at the H202 percentage lumpdog uses as the Oxiclean is upping it as well. However, since others are starting with a much higher H202 percentage as well as using an "Oxy" product, lumpydog's overall solution is lower in H202, but ultimately more than indicated on the bottle. As for "doing most of the work", I would think not. Since no matter how much Oxy compound you put in water, it still won't produce as much H202 as a mixture already containing it. Plus, there is a limit to how much powder can be absorbed by the water and possible negative effects from the substantially increased soda ash in using an Oxy compound alone.

Since you already have a source for the substance, this is something of a moot observation, but most of those in the Vintagecomputing forum achieved equally amazing results to lumpydog without specifically using Oxiclean, but a generic "Oxy" product. My guess is Oxiclean happened to be the brand lumpydog had on hand (which he may answer for us). While caution is prudent in the restoration of an irreplaceable Mac, I think Oxiclean is more marketing than "magic" (appearing on direct marketing infomercials and commercials frequently here in the US). According to its website, it uses the exact same ingredients as the brand I picked up at my local supermarket (which carried half-a-dozen varieties, none of which were Oxiclean). The use of a local variety might save you a fair amount over Oxiclean's inflated price, not to mention shipping to Japan.

My guess is Oxiclean happened to be the brand lumpydog had on hand (which he may answer for us).

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Yup! What I had on hand :beige:

Lumpy

One thing I did notice is the the R16 (capacitor?) which is next to the RTC chip, appears to maybe be compromised. It's hard to tell because these things are so damn tiny.

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C16 or R16? The C16 capacitor is the one right next to the CLK. The R16 resistor is next to the filter. C16 could definitely be a problem as it appears to be connected to the power pin -8- on the RTC chip. Since you know power from the battery is good to pin-11 on the logicboard, and your PRAM does not retain settings after restart, the backup power is likely not making it reliably into the RTC causing who knows what kind of problems. If so, it is definitely an easier fix than finding a new RTC. Could that capacitor have blown when you had the battery in backwards?

I'll let you know how the rear plastic label and the paper serial number label fair.

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If your HD20 plastic & paper labels did OK, I'm sure the 512K labels will as well. I suspect the problem with the logos is that they are metal and are painted. H202 is highly corrosive to metal. That alone could account for the paint blistering due to the chemical reaction beneath it. However, the paint could be lead-based, or other susceptible base as well. Considering these as possible explanations for the damaged logo, I am actually surprised that the metal-based coating on the inside of the cases is left alone. Some aluminum is immune to H202's corrosive effects so perhaps that explains it. Anybody know the composition of the RF paint used inside the early Macs? What about the later metallic coatings in the SE?

Mac128 - you're correct. It was C16.... NOT R16 - thanks for asking. I was at work.

I'll need to look more closely at it this weekend. it appears to be damaged - but it's hard to tell. No burn marks, etc.

Ok Mac128... My multimeter says C16 on the logic board is toast (it looks it too). Everything else that I tested around the RTC (including the battery checks out).

What is the replacement part number/description for C16 on the logic board? - it is a diode... Where can I get a replacement?

Pina, in his book, does not appear to give the detail to logic boards that he gives to the analog board.

I'm hoping you might be able to provide some help/direction on getting the part to replace C16...

Lumpy

According to the BOMARC and Apple SE/30 schematics I have, the positive side of polarized capacitor C16 is connected to pin 6 of UB10 and UB11 (the Sony chips), and is also connected to R5 and R11. And the other side of R5 connects to the Reset switch. Both schematics show C16 as ".1" which I assume is 0.1uF (microFarad). C16 is found on the bottom of the logic board, nearest the two switches.

I have C16 shown in PDF form, in both schematics, hosted on Google Docs. Stupidly though, Google Docs won't let me share PDFs with everyone, so I have to manually plug in email addresses to give people individual access. PM me with your email address if you want to see my PDF.

Now with that said, I suspect your C16 may be just fine. You would likely need to remove it from the logic board to perform an accurate test anyway. C16 is a chip capacitor which, unlike the big tanks on the top side of the board, don't tend to fail over time.

According to the BOMARC and Apple SE/30 schematics I have, ... C16 is a chip capacitor which, unlike the big tanks on the top side of the board, don't tend to fail over time.

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Uh, JDW, this is a 512K. C16 connects to a whole different place on the 512K and looks like it is a tiny polystyrene dielectric cap. The 512K uses no SMD chips of any kind.

Unfortunately, as you point out, Pina is rather mute on logicboard parts. I really don't have a clue either. Perhaps Tom Lee would weigh in, if he's following. Otherwise try a PM to him.

My C16 is on the opposite side of the board from the reset switch...

I'm not good at identifying these small parts. My ohm meter was able to get a reading from all identical diode/resistors (not sure which this is)- as long as the posative and negative test pins (from the multimeter) were on the correct ends.

The diode/resistor in qustion is clear/glass-like with a peach or orange band at the ends. There are a lot of identical looking diodes/resistors that I can get readings from.

JDW - I'm not sure C16 is the same on my board as the part you are describing on the SE30...

Lumpy

Edit: Mac128 and I posted at the same time...

Just looked at my C16 under a magnifying glass. It has definite markings on it. It appears glass with gold tips and a flat strip of metal bridging the connectors.

z50V

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Mac128 - that's it.

Any multimeter reading using an ohm meter? Positive/red further away from RTC... I get nothing - resistance, continuity....

Here is a picture of the part (JDW's picture off of Flickr) - I circled it in Red: http://www.flickr.com/photos/33624199@N08/3277349640/sizes/o/

Mine is damaged and illegible. I'm new to this, but think I've found the culprit.

Thanks

P.S. Your quote - is that what your reading off of the part throught the magnifying glass?

Ok, ok... That's what I get for posting at mid-night!

With respect to the Mac 512k logic board...

1) According to the hi-rez photo of my board (which I cannot post on Flickr because I haven't shelled out the cash for "Pro") shows C16 rated at 50v.

2) C16 is a Glass-Encapsulated Chip Capacitor, which of the same sort as I mentioned in my posting last night -- not prone to failure relative to electrolytics. You would need to test it out of circuit to know for sure though, and I wouldn't advise that unless you really know what you're doing because you could destroy it in the process.

3) According to my Mac 512k schematic, C16 is marked as "0.1" (the same as C15), and connects to an op amp on the board (which in turn connects to a transistor pair, which ultimately leads to the Audio Jack). As I said last night, I am going to assume this "0.1" value translates into 0.1uF. Another thing that leads me to believe this is true is because on my schematic, C15 is clearly marked "0.1uF" because there is enough space to write "uF" but there is not enough space to write "uF" after the "0.1" of C16.

4) Yes, this schematic I have is the "technical aid only" marked version, created by Apple engineers for "easy readability on one page" versus the original multipage schematic. But I still believe it to be accurate. (I can't remember if it was Guy Kawaski or Daniel Kottke who requested this from Apple engineers, because the original multi-page schematics were too troublesome to read at a glance.)

3) According to my Mac 512k schematic, C16 is marked as "0.1" (the same as C15), and connects to an op amp on the board (which in turn connects to a transistor pair, which ultimately leads to the Audio Jack).

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The schematic I have been working with is this one, showing pin 8 of the RTC going to the battery. On my 512K logic board, there is a trace going directly from the RTC-side connectoion to pin 8 of the RTC chip, which can be clearly seen on your flickr photo. So I'm not sure I agree that it goes to the Audio jack.

And yes, lumpydog, the markings are on the capacitor itself as seen through the magnifying glass. However, in sampling several boards, I discovered depending on how the cap was mounted, the marking could be on the bottom.

Mac128, look at section 3-D of the Digibarn 512k schematic you link to. You can see the word "AUDIO" just above J1 (the audio jack). Follow the lines from J1 down and to the left, through the transistors and op-amps. You can then see C15 just above C16. It is this C15 and C16 that I refer to in my post above.

Mac128, look at section 3-D of the Digibarn 512k schematic you link to. You can see the word "AUDIO" just above J1 (the audio jack). Follow the lines from J1 down and to the left, through the transistors and op-amps. You can then see C15 just above C16. It is this C15 and C16 that I refer to in my post above.

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Ah. Again, the only problem I have with that is I cannot trace back to C16 on the actual board. I'll post a traced route on one of the unfinished logicboard photos when I can. But C16 appears to be equivalent to C21 on the Digibarn schem, i.e. a trace directly from pin 8 (battery) of the RTC to a 1mF C16 which is terminates into a ground. The DB schem. shows C21, which literally appears to attach to nothing on the actual board. Is it possible that the actual production board differed from this schematic?

UPDATE: I think my supposition is quite likely. The schematic seems to refer to this board which DigiBarn indicates is the final board ("200 BUILD"). The board I was going to use to back-trace is noted as the FINAL board. NOTE: C16 is NOT in the same place on the 200-BUILD board, or the "Final" board as on the actual production boards. ALSO NOTE: the 200-BUILD part number is 820-0068-00, the "Final" board is 820-0086-B and the actual production board is 820-0086-C. Amazing. It's definitely worth taking a look at the schematics and updating them against the actual production board which seems to have a major re-working of the B&C/1&2 sections. This had the effect of changing the component numbering across the board.

I back traced what is indicated as C15 on the Final board (C21 on the 200-BUILD) and C16 on the production board. Even this is a significant difference as the Final and 200-Build boards definitely traces back from CLK pin 8, directly to the battery pin 11, respectively. This seems to indicate this area was constantly changing between this schem. draft and the production build. So the lesson here is don't rely exclusively on schematics. Are there indeed ANY schematics available for the final rev. B board (or even photos of unpopulated boards to compare revisions)?

I believe this has come up before, but since both the rev. B & C boards are © 1983, it is unlikely the rev. B board made it into any production models. It is worth mentioning that a final rev. was made to the board, though the board itself was not modified. A resistor network was attached to the VIA chip (the chip responsible for interacting with the RTC) and C30, which Larry Pina describes on page 179 & 183. Evidently it was added to the later boards to prevent a tendency for the Mac to "lock up". Without testing the absence of this resistor may or may not affect the RTC settings.

Yes, the white silkscreening of all three boards you mention are different. My Flickr photo shows the 820-0086-C board which differs from the "Final" board shown on Digibarn.

Therefore, the 512k schematic on Digibarn (from Dan Kottke) is a general reference only document that we should not rely on to help us debug production "C" boards. For reliable work on these production boards, we need a BOMARC schematic (which are reverse engineered based on actual boards).

For reliable work on these production boards, we need a BOMARC schematic (which are reverse engineered based on actual boards).

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Do you only have the SE/30 schematics?

Too bad this one is not more legible.

Correct. The only BOMARC schematics I have are of the SE/30. But I also have Apple schematics of the SE/30. I've compared them in many places, and they appear to be the same (which is reassuring). BOMARC does a great job.

Man. Your link to those Beck-Tech schematics have me drooling now. Anyone know someone who used to work there who could provide us readable copies?

Beck-Tech sold the schematics so there should be a few copies around.

Beck-Tech sold the schematics so there should be a few copies around.

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You have to wonder how accurate they are and why Apple would allow them to be sold contemporarily with their technology.

lumpydog, my apologies for hijacking your thread, but at least we know that C16 may be suspect and should be easy enough to replace, before you go looking for an RTC replacement. If not that, then I think you have to really start suspecting that clock.

Having said that, this seems as appropriate a venue as any to post this. I found this ebay auction for a 820-0086-F logicboard. The seller confirms the part number, though he has not confirmed the picture or whether it has 128K or 512K RAM installed. BOMARC likewise shows a 128K/512K 820-0086-C/F board, but does not show a 820-0141-A hybrid board, which is the only 512K variant I have seen.

So what is going on here? Is the "F" variant actually the original part number for the hybrid "Fat" Mac board? If so, why change the part number? Was the hybrid board further redesigned? Or did Apple decide the redesign was more significant than to be labeled a mere revision of the original? The only other reference I find to the "F" board is this website which also shows the same picture of a hybrid board as the eBay seller does. Not enough to ensure both are not using the wrong picture, but seems unlikely.

Mac 128 - this thread has covered so many different things, I don't think it could be hijacked...

Update on my Mac 512K: Still no luck with the clock. I did de/resolder the RTC chip. No luck. I purchased a 512Ke on eBay (arrived Friday) and swapped logic boards. Clock worked. So it confirms it's something on the logic board. I'm still focusing on C16 as it looks damaged.

JDW - I did de-yellow my Mac 512K AND 512Ke cases in the solution this weekend. This time, the mix was 1/3 Hydrogen Peroxide - the rest was water (and Oxi powder). Used a big plastic clear storage bin (I think my wife bought it at Target). Six hours in the sun. Results were the same as the other parts - incredible. The plastic model number sticker on the back - undamaged. The Apple Logos and Labels - undamaged (I did not remove them - watched closely). The serial number label - some water seepage/absorption around the edges but it dries out.

Another thing to mention - after the plastics come out of the solution and are dry, I've been using "Aerospace 303 Protectant" on them. The 303 Aerospace Protectant has a UV block.

I purchased a 512Ke on eBay (arrived Friday) and swapped logic boards. Clock worked. So it confirms it's something on the logic board. I'm still focusing on C16 as it looks damaged.

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Since we've determined the C16 directly interfaces with the power supply into the RTC it is definitely worth replacing if it looks suspect anyway. However, I don't think you can conclude it is not the RTC without actually swapping the known good RTC for the bad. Try the C16 first (perhaps borrow the one from the good board), then swap the RTC if that doesn't work.

The Apple Logos and Labels - undamaged (I did not remove them - watched closely).

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The 512K and HD20 had entirely different logos from the picture that showed the corrosion (and LC?). I wonder if the diamond-cut inlaid logo was stamped out of a steel alloy while the square 3-D logo was stamped out of something less reactive with the H202 like aluminum.

I've been using "Aerospace 303 Protectant" on them. The 303 Aerospace Protectant has a UV block.

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Interesting stuff. I can remember using something like it to clean my mom's patio furniture in Florida. It must leave some kind of film on the case in order to work, though I assume it is undetectable? As such, it would seem necessary to reapply to maintain effectiveness. This is a good solution since it should allow for repeated dunkings as the unit yellows from heat and chemical breakdown. Would be nice to leave it on display in a sunlit room without having to worry about the UV degradation which seems to be ironically both the Mac's main nemesis and savior.

Interesting stuff. I can remember using something like it to clean my mom's patio furniture in Florida. It must leave some kind of film on the case in order to work, though I assume it is undetectable? As such, it would seem necessary to reapply to maintain effectiveness. This is a good solution since it should allow for repeated dunkings as the unit yellows from heat and chemical breakdown. Would be nice to leave it on display in a sunlit room without having to worry about the UV degradation which seems to be ironically both the Mac's main nemesis and savior.

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The 303 Protectant is nice because it does not make the plastic look wet or feel slick like Armorall does. It gives the plastic a "new" look.... The UV block is a bonus. Not sure how long that lasts, but after the H202 dunk and the 303, the plastic looks brand new. I'm pretty pleased.

I'd love to see some crisp closeup shots of the BEFORE and AFTER 303 application (after the H202 dunking).

JDW:

I have a keyboard that I washed and have not yet treated with 303 - this weekend I will take some pictures of is (before/after 303 protectant) and some pics of my cleaned 512K and 512Ke.

Charlie

I appreciate those photos, Charlie. And I am very curious how the compact Mac cases will fair in light of the gray colored spray on the inside of the plastic case. Mac128 mentions that metal under the Apple logo could have resulted in the destruction of the colored paint on that same logo. Hence I wonder what will happen to that gray paint. Because doesn't that gray coating contain metal flakes in it?

JDW:

I'm not sure about the content of the gray paint used on the interior.... Mine looks fine after being dunked.

I promised some pictures - see: http://www.flickr.com/photos/33624199@N08/3301745527/ you can move through the series by clicking to the right (you know the drill with Flickr as I've seen pictures posted by you there).

The first series of pictures is of my 512Ke - which has been treated in the H2O2 solution and then wiped down with 303 Protectant.

The last six pictures show a keyboard after it had been washed in H202. The first three are before 303 had been applied - the last three are after. It's hard to tell the difference up close - but the protectant does make the plastic look slightly newer. More of a satin finish - but not wet (like Armorall) -and it does not feel slick or slippery/greasy.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Oh - one other observation. I think the Compact Macs can get away with such a low percentage of Peroxide because the plastic is relatively soft/porous. I put the yellowed plastic from my MacEnhancer case in the solution - 3 days so far and it's only slightly changed.... Also - you will notice in the pictures that the spacebar on the keyboard of my 512Ke looks pretty good - that took 4 days out on the sun and 1/2 to 1/3 3% solution to get it looking that close to the other keys - it's a harder plastic...

I'm not sure about the content of the gray paint used on the interior.... Mine looks fine after being dunked.

the spacebar on the keyboard of my 512Ke looks pretty good - that took 4 days out on the sun and 1/2 to 1/3 3% solution to get it looking that close to the other keys - it's a harder plastic...

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The gray paint has a metallic content. The whole point of it is to prevent RF interference. Given that the RF shield is aluminum and the Apple III used a solid aluminum chassis, my guess is, it's an aluminum based paint. Aluminum is not particularly reactive with H202.

As for the spacebar ... that explains a lot, in particular why it tends to discolor and the other keys do not. Clearly supplied by a different manufacturer. Did you dunk all of the keys as well as the spacebar? If so, how long did they take by contrast?

The gray paint has a metallic content. The whole point of it is to prevent RF interference. Given that the RF shield is aluminum and the Apple III used a solid aluminum chassis, my guess is, it's an aluminum based paint. Aluminum is not particularly reactive with H202.
As for the spacebar ... that explains a lot, in particular why it tends to discolor and the other keys do not. Clearly supplied by a different manufacturer. Did you dunk all of the keys as well as the spacebar? If so, how long did they take by contrast?

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I did notice that any screws put unto the H202 solution suffered from minor corrosion (steel?) I think you may be right about aluminum. Also, I am using a much lesser percentage of peroxide - compared to the solution that ate the Apple logo in the earlier picture that I linked to.

I did not dunk any of the keyboard keys - with the exception of the spacebar, which was clearly yellowed in comparison to the rest.

Apple would have to be careful with any aluminum - based paint. If it came into contact with steel parts/screws - Galvanic corrosion.

Lumpy, so how many cups/tablespoonfuls of that OxiClean powder are you using versus the total volume of Water + H202 again? (For example, 1 cup Oxiclean to 1 gallon of H20 + 1 gallon of H202 @ 3% concentration -- 2 gallons total liquid, with 1.5% H202 concentration?)

It also seems that you are just leaving the plastic items in the solution, out in the sun, until your eyes see a physical change in the color of the plastics, correct? That explains why you removed some items after several hours in the sun, while others were not removed for 72 hours or so (which includes sunlight and darkness at night).

JDW:

The solution's percentages have been pretty approximate... but here is what I've used:

First time (Mouse): 100% Bottled Hydrogen Peroxide (3% concentration), 0% Water. For each gallon of this solution, a tablespoon of Oxi... maybe a little more

Second time (HD20 Case) (Needed more fluid to fully submerge larger plastics in larger tubs): 50% Bottled Hydrogen Peroxide (3% peroxide concentration), 50% Water. For each gallon of this solution, a tablespoon of Oxi...

Third time (Mac 512 Case) (Needed even more fluid to fully submerge larger plastics in larger tubs): 30% Bottled Hydrogen Peroxide (3% peroxide concentration), 70% Water. For each gallon of this solution, a tablespoon of Oxi...

Yes, I've been eyeballing it - I don't think there is a "too long" in the solution - the plastics don't get any lighter after a certain point, when the yellow is gone.

The diluted H202 seems to be just as effective as the undiluted. I've been cleaning out my local Wallgreen's supply of bottled H202. At less than $2 per bottle, I've purchased about 15 bottles to date. The recycling truck must think I'm nuts.

If you're concerned, try it on your mouse first - you wont need much solution or a big container... Use a clear plastic container to get max UV penetration.

I used the 303 Protectant, because I reasoned that it would protect the plastic and replenish it/keep it from drying out. The protectant improves the result.

I did notice that any screws put unto the H202 solution suffered from minor corrosion (steel?) I think you may be right about aluminum. Also, I am using a much lesser percentage of peroxide - compared to the solution that ate the Apple logo in the earlier picture that I linked to. ...

Apple would have to be careful with any aluminum - based paint. If it came into contact with steel parts/screws - Galvanic corrosion.

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The screws would most definitely be steel, cheapest of all the screws and no reason to use anything else. Actually you may be onto something re: the aluminum reacting with steel. The coating is judiciously applied and no metal parts come into contact with it at all. Of course they couldn't for electrical reasons. In fact, the only part that does come in contact with it is a specially designed aluminum strip mounted to the case that comes into contact with an aluminum patch on the analogue board left exposed through the vinyl. As Apple's tolerances were ridiculously tight, they later added a plastic liner that ran the length of the logicboard extending from the RF shield to prevent any contact by the chassis or logicboard caused by misalignment. I believe the steel chassis is further coated as well, though the sharp edges certainly defy any protective coating.

My yellow-capped 24oz tub of Oxi Clean "Versatile" arrived recently. While this product is clearly being used outside its intended purpose in restoring classic computing plastics to their original pristine color in combination with H202, I did find it interesting that the label recommends "warm to hot water" (apparently to dissove the OxiClean powder). And yet they recommend rinsing in cool water. Not sure why cold is required for the rinse. Here is the exact text off the label:

USAGE GUIDELINES1) Test in an inconspicuous are first. Rinse, then allow to dry. Always follow the manufacturer's instructions for water temperature and for cleaning garment or item. OxiClean works best in warm to hot water. Treat stains while fresh. Always rinse well with cool water. Do not place fabric that has not been thoroughly rinsed into dryer.

2) Do not use on wool, wool blends, silk, silk blends, leather or on fabrics labeled dry clean only. Not for use on jewelry, latex paints, woven baskets, unpainted wicker, jute, teak, or finished woods. Metals must not be soaked and must be rinsed immediately and thoroughly. Not for use on rust, dried paint, or bleach damage. Safe for septic tanks.

3) Keep container closed and dry between uses.

4) Some stains require repeated, longer or stronger treatments. Adding more OxiClean powder than recommended increases the risk of color loss. If washing in cold water, pre-dissolve OxiClean first in 16oz of warm to hot water. Add to cold water/wash.

WARNING

...AVOID PROLONGED CONTACT WITH SKIN...WEAR GLOVES WHEN MIXING OR USING SOLUTIONS. DO NOT STORE UNUSED SOLUTIONS FOR MORE THAN 6 HOURS, AS PRESSURE CAN BUILD UP AND RUPTURE THE CONTAINER AND CAUSE INJURY.

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I asked Lumpy about "tablespoonfuls" of this powder in a previous post, but the instructions talk about "scoops" with the included plastic scooper. Since the scooper holds more than a tablespoon, I assume you meant "1 scoop" instead of "1 tablespoon" correct? But even at 1 scoop per gallon, it is still less than the "SOAKING" and "HARD SURFACES" instructions recommend. Those instructions say 2-4 scoops per gallon of water.

JDW:

I was using the scoop to dispense the powder, but the amount I was using was roughly a tablespoon - albeit a heaping one. I didnt pay much attention to water temp - the Oxi dissolved pretty easily. You can see from my pictures that it was set outside in 30 degree temps.

In one batch I added too much Oxi and the surface got pretty foamy - not a big deal, but it did obscure some of the sunlight in the tank of water. My recommendation is to start with less - and strengthen if you're not seeing results. Otherwise, you're just wasting materials and subjecting the plastic to a stronger than necessary solution.

On the vintage-computer.com thread that I link to, I believe they mentioned that the solution stays useful for about 4 days...

In the 3-4 batches that I washed, I was not scientific in my measurements - all of the results were the same though. As I mentioned, start out with something small (your mouse) and see what you think. Harder plastics (keyboard keys) take longer and de-yellow more gradually. Softer plastics (most Apple case materials used in compact Macs) seem to de-yellow in diluted solutions in about 6 hours.

The screws would most definitely be steel, cheapest of all the screws and no reason to use anything else.

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For durability when inserted by machine tools and/or idiots, most computer screws are steel and have a bright plating which serves no engineering function. Case screws have coarse threads because their security is unimportant and the female thread may not be well formed. Some screws are japanned (ie given a gloss black coating) for aesthetic reasons, similar to plated screws. In the early days, Dell and other PC clone manufacturers used plain steel screws. PC motherboards are secured by brass mounts which use fine threads -- I don't understand the reason for this, unless it is just copying what IBM did donkey's years ago.

Actually you may be onto something re: the aluminum reacting with steel. The coating is judiciously applied and no metal parts come into contact with it at all. Of course they couldn't for electrical reasons.

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Inside a compact Mac, the RF paint is probably aluminium and carbon suspended in acrylic. The paint is too grey to be aluminium on its own.

I believe the steel chassis is further coated as well, though the sharp edges certainly defy any protective coating.

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The chassis is painted for rust protection. It was almost certainly brought into the assembly plant from an external supplier, in the same way as a floppy drive or CRT tube. It was probably dipped rather than sprayed -- if you were spraying it seriously, you would perform a second pass to cover the rounded corners properly.

Having looked at a few photos of naked compact Macs, I am impressed at how little steel is inside them.

I did find it interesting that the label recommends "warm to hot water" (apparently to dissove the OxiClean powder). And yet they recommend rinsing in cool water. Not sure why cold is required for the rinse.

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Are you trying to wash your colored laundry or restore your Mac? LOL

The manufacturer is covering its ass. Cold water will not cause colors to bleed or set as badly as warm water. If there is any bleed, the cold water rinse will help prevent any bleed from setting and prevent further bleed to transfer to other garments which the dryer would then permanently set. H202 is commercially used to encourage the setting of dyes in a new garment, thus a similar situation could occur in your laundry. None of this of course is a concern with your Mac, unless of course you throw your MacTV in the same bucket as your SE/30. :beige:

Lumpy, now I'm up against yet another hurdle. In all my 14.5 years of living here in Japan, I've never actually had the need to purchase H202. I know how the English translates into the Japanese (3% H202 sells under the brand name "Oxydol"), but most of the over the counter 3% solution products in 500ml sizes are priced higher than your US$2/bottle perhaps because the ingredients are different that what you have there in the US. The Oxitol I've seen contains ingredients like Phenacetin (pain killer) and either Ethanol or Phosphoric acid (the latter being more expensive than the Ethanol versions). What are the exact ingredients in the H202 you used? My guess is 3% H202 and 97% water, but I cannot find anything that basic here in Japan. All the Japanese stuff has other ingredients in it.

I've Googled up some H202 in the US and I see that when purchased in a case of 12 or 24 bottles, each bottle can be fetched for about US$1 each. However, stupid USPS no longer offers ocean shipping anymore, and it makes no economic sense to have a family member ship me 24 0.5L bottles of the stuff by AIR. Some of you here are Australian. Does Australia Post offer overseas ocean shipping? If so, is 3% H202 (97% water, no other ingredients) economically priced in case form like it is in the US?

The longer I live here in Japan, the more I shake my head at what we DON'T have here. We don't have even basic things like Cheerios or Raisin Bran cereal for crying out loud. So I'm not surprised we don't have basic, cheap H202 like in the US.

JDW:

I went out to the store today to get more h202 - I have a 2nd HD20 on the way.... The ingredients are 3%hydrogen peroxide and the remainder is water....

I wonder if the other ingredients in the Japanese H202 would be harmful to plastics... may be benign...

Lumpy

Well, I'm not eager to dip my prized Macs into overpriced Japanese H202+pain killers to find out. I'm still trying to find a way to economically source the genuine H202-in-water-only from an overseas source. If USPS still offered economical shipping to Japan by boat, I'd just get it from the US.

Well, I'm not eager to dip my prized Macs into overpriced Japanese H202+pain killers to find out.

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OK, the pain killers I get, as the practical application of H202 is to clean out wounds. The Ethanol as a disinfectant makes sense too, but, I'm not really sure I'd want to pour phosphoric acid into my open wound. That would be the stuff that would concern me with the Mac. Ethanol should not hurt the case, neither should the pain killers, but they might have a mitigating effect on the de-yellowing process. Surely there is some academic or medical supply source you might approach to get plain H202 3%/97% purified water (or even higher solution that you could dilute yourself)?

As ridiculous as this sounds, since H202 (even in 3% concentration) is technically flammable, could you even easily ship it internationally?

since H202 (even in 3% concentration) is technically flammable, could you even easily ship it internationally?

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If not, I will end up using this OxiClean on textile applications. :'(

And I had such high hopes to follow Lumpy's work!

Overall, I enjoy life in Japan, as evidenced by the fact I've been here so long. I've simply learned to live without the basic things of life which I had access to bad in the days I was in California. We don't even have local Radio Shacks here. But I can tell you that, me as a non-Japanese trying to get a hold of H202 from a "medical" or "education" source would be looked upon with a tremendous amount of suspicion, should I even be able to do so at all. Ever little thing is monitored so closely here, and there is an enormous amount of red tape one must go through to do anything. Even to get a driver's license, it costs a couple thousand US Dollar and an amazing chunk of your time.

I could go on, but suffice it to say, if any of you out there have ideas for me on sourcing H202 3% in 97% water, I would certainly appreciate hearing them. I still feel that Australia may be a good source, but apparently Equill and you other Aussies are on vacation now? It's been very silent from Down Under!

Leave it to those Amiga folks to take this de-yellowing talk to the extreme:

http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/

Looks like they involved industrial chemists and plastics engineers who a) blame the bromine used to make this old hardware flame-retardant and B) show how the reaction is actually reversed with the hydrogen peroxide / oxy additives. They've also figured out how to make a gel to paint on larger hardware. Click the links on the left for lots of details.

Well, I'm still in the same boat without access to any "true" H202 in water only.

ACK!

Well, I'm still in the same boat without access to any "true" H202 in water only.

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Actually the site's article makes a good point I was going to bring up. You should try a hair salon/supply store. You are likely to be looked upon with far less suspicion, and given the strict use of bleaching hair color with no need to mask pain, or further sterilize, their mixtures are likely to be straight H202 and water, if a higher concentration. I know they have it there as I see many pictures from Japan of men and women both sporting bleached blonde hair (I don't think there are many naturally blonde Japanese). All you need do is further dilute the concentration with water.

I actually like the RetroBright article because it goes in-depth into the science behind why. We've been speculating about an awful lot of it in this thread and RetroBright goes into detail, especially the reasoning behind the Oxy compound, which it seems is entirely geared toward speeding up the process, which otherwise only requires UV and H202 and time.

JDW - I too am disappointed that you can't find the right ingredients - I've been looking forward to having someone else here try it out and share their results.

I just took delivery of a second HD20 and, next to the one that I cleaned in H202, etc, the difference is just unreal. I'm going to put the 2nd HD20's case out in the sun/solution this weekend.

Since I started this thread, I've been able to get the 512K Mac up and running with the help of the wise people in these forums. I ended up fixing the clock problem via the purchase of a new logic board for $9 on eBay. Along the way, I've learned how to use a soldering iron and a multimeter - allwoing me to de/resolder the key componenets on the analog board and tune up the voltage pot and CRT (thanks to Pina's excellent books).

I've also purchased a 512Ke - it had a problem with the analog board that I was able to fix (dry joints) with some de/resoldering. I also tuned up the voltage and CRT.

Both Macs have been completely disassembled and deyellowed - along with the first HD20 that I had purchased. I disassembled the keyboards and mice as well and cleaned them spotless. I basically have two Macs that look like the day they were first opened. I now have one in my office at work and the other at home.

I'm working on downgrading the original 512K that I purchased to original spec (despite the seller's claim that it had not been upgraded, it came with the Plus upgrade - 800K drive and 128KROM) - the second logic board that I purchased had 64K ROM chips. Additionally, I was able to locate a few 400K drive brackets on eBay yesterday. All I need now is a 400K drive.

To round out my collection I have been on the lookout for a fixer-upper 128K Mac. They're a little harder to come by though - and I'm worried my wife might kick me out of the house if I keep this up :O

I'm working on downgrading the original 512K that I purchased to original spec (despite the seller's claim that it had not been upgraded, it came with the Plus upgrade - 800K drive and 128KROM) - the second logic board that I purchased had 64K ROM chips. Additionally, I was able to locate a few 400K drive brackets on eBay yesterday. All I need now is a 400K drive.

To round out my collection I have been on the lookout for a fixer-upper 128K Mac. They're a little harder to come by though - and I'm worried my wife might kick me out of the house if I keep this up :O

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Technically that was the "800K drive upgrade", which required the 512K logicboard/upgrade. The Plus upgrade was a Plus logicboard and case bucket without ROMs, which you transferred from your 800K drive upgrade and returned your old 512K board and bucket.

As for the 128K, I got lost about what you have ... do you have two 512K M0001W models, one of which was upgraded, or do you actually have one M0001E? You can probably safely get rid of the 512Ke and buy a 128K Mac. Then you can simply swap out the logicboards when you want/need two 512K Macs. Since the 512K can run an 800K disk drive and speak AppleTalk via the HD20 INIT, there is very little need to expand your collection further with 128K ROMs, or even SCSI.

Technically that was the "800K drive upgrade", which required the 512K logicboard/upgrade. The Plus upgrade was a Plus logicboard and case bucket without ROMs, which you transferred from your 800K drive upgrade and returned your old 512K board and bucket.

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Right you are! Thanks for catching that.

As for the 128K, I got lost about what you have ... do you have two 512K M0001W models, one of which was upgraded, or do you actually have one M0001E? You can probably safely get rid of the 512Ke and buy a 128K Mac. Then you can simply swap out the logicboards when you want/need two 512K Macs. Since the 512K can run an 800K disk drive and speak AppleTalk via the HD20 INIT, there is very little need to expand your collection further with 128K ROMs, or even SCSI.

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I have one M0001W and one M0001E. The purchases of these different model numbers was purposeful, and I'd like to complete the collection of the first three models with a 128K M0001 model - maybe adde a Plus to mess around with programs that require more memory. To be honest, I get the most enjoyment out of getting them up and running - and then restoring them. Unlike my first two purchases, any additions will likely be broken units.

I have an original HD20 Init disk and intend to use it to work the M0001W. I resurected my father's PowerMac 8500 (was in his basement for about 10 years) and am using that as a bridge to download compact Mac software and move it to floppies - I have OS 7, 8 and 9 running on it. Last weekend for the fun of it I ran OSs 1-10 on various Mac in my household - interesting to see the progression of the software.

Lumpy, I'd love to see a side by side photo of your 2 HD20's!

By the way, a little bird educated me to the fact that H202 manufacturers in the use tend to hide the truth that their drug store brand 3% H202 contains "stabilizers" in that so-called "97% water." Apparently, the Japanese manufacturer Oxydol is simply stating the truth of what's in their H202 bottles. Here is further information and H202 for health info.

So it appears that Lumpy's success has resulted from otherwise "tainted" H202. So the evidence indicates that I can use Japanese Oxydol 2.5~3.5% H202 solution without any problems. It simply will cost me US$2.77 per 500ml bottle.

By the way, a little bird educated me to the fact that H202 manufacturers in the use tend to hide the truth that their drug store brand 3% H202 contains "stabilizers" in that so-called "97% water." Apparently, the Japanese manufacturer Oxydol is simply stating the truth of what's in their H202 bottles.....So it appears that Lumpy's success has resulted from otherwise "tainted" H202..

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JDW, you certainly are blessed with being encircled by numerous little birdies. No one can accuse you being thorough. But your choice of words is often amusing. In particular, manufacturers "hide the truth", Oxydol "state the truth", Lumpy's "tainted" H202. LOL There's hardly a conspiracy here. While I have no reason to doubt the validity of this practice, we have something called the FDA in the USA which prevents a manufacturer from selling something in which the contents are not fully disclosed. The only exception to this is when a product contains trace elements of an ingredient. Perhaps they do add stabilizers, however since they occur well under the FDA's threshold for notability, they are not included on the label in as much as their inclusion is negligible to the interaction with the product or its uses. The fact that you listed the ingredients of your Japanese product so prominently led to the confusion by all of us, that your over-the-counter H202 was loaded with these additional ingredients. In particular, you stated yours contains "pain-killers" which would seem to have little to do with stabilization and everything to do with the application of the product. What's more, I routinely see "stabilizers" listed on a list of ingredients of all manner of products. Had the makers of Oxydol minimized their list of stabilizers to that one word, it would have been much less confusing. So, are US manufacturers engaged in a web of lies and deceit in order to peddle their tainted product on the market? No, they are simply omitting the ingredients that do not contribute in any significant way to the content of the product.

As for the price, it is a bit surprising, however, given that is intended to be used in relatively small amounts, it often lasts forever. So the real conspiracy here is the manufacturer charging well over twice the amount it's sold for in the US, given the relatively cheap production costs.

I take it you are now confident to move forward with your de-yellowing experiments once you get that "big bonus" at work so as to afford the overpriced Japanese H202? LOL

I don't know why I was PM'd this information rather than it being openly posted here for all to read. But I will say that the little bird who told me is an active participant here and one of the more knowledgeable "engineers" among us. I won't name him simply because he PM'd me and did not post his thoughts in this thread. However, I don't think it will offend him (or make him the brunt of scorn) to quote exactly what he told me...

In the US the labeling laws are biased towards telling the consumer less for food and non-food ingredients figuring the less the consumer knows the better for commerce. Here the labels usually read "Hydrogen Peroxide, USP" but the stabilizers are there and usually are revealed (sometimes if not proprietary) only in the Material Safety Data Sheet MSDS by each manufacturer. The exact trace ingredient stabilizers vary by supplier.
Metal ions can catalyze decomposition of H2O2 in the container releasing O2 and potentially bursting the container. A variety of ingredients like Phenacetin, ethanol, and pH adjusters like Phosphoric Acid are added in trace amounts to stabilize the H2O2 against these metal ion contaminants that may be present in manufacture, leach from the container, enter the container when opened from dust, or contaminate the liquid if traces of blood from a wound being treated are introduced by sloppy user technique. Once in the bottle, unless bound up by stabilizer, the metal ions cause continuously evolved oxygen but as catalysts are not themselves used up. Hydrogen peroxide for commerce is not stable on the shelf unless stabilized. Even highest purity semiconductor grade hydrogen peroxide has stabilizers added. Rather than having more impure hydrogen peroxide in Japan, count your self lucky that the labeling laws reveal what is in there without you having to search out the ingredients.

The folks in the US that think their store bought H2O2 is only that plus water are just not reading the label for the words stabilized and USP and what they mean. I cannot tell you that any particular formulation of H2O2 in Japan is fit for your use. But here in the US the stabilizers are not required to be itemized on the label but most assuredly are there. United States users are running uncontrolled experiments if they buy drugstore brand labels that might have several different suppliers of the same shelf product using different unlisted additives (even if present in just trace amounts). Perhaps you should experiment on some less valuable plastics first to develop some confidence in the chemicals available to you.

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Perhaps my "hide the truth" description of the above could be considered "excessive emphasis" by some, I used those words based on what I personally felt after I read the above (observe the keywords "biased" and "uncontrolled experiments" and "not required...on the label" etc.) While one could now argue that "stabilizers are in too small an amount to be significant," I didn't always know that, I am not a chemist, and I posted in this thread to learn as much as possible prior to spending any money, time or dipping my beloved plastics "into the unknown." But as of now, I feel confident that Japanese Oxydol is pretty much the same thing as what you get when you purchase 3% H202 at drug stores in the US.

And just for the record (for those of you reading this from Japan), perhaps it matters little, but I have found two common types of 3% h202 Oxydol, which varies by price considerably, which in turn is based on the difference of one single "stabilizer" ingredient:

Oxydol with Phenacetin & Ethanol: 500ml@¥290EA

Oxydol with Phenacetin & Phosphoric acid: 500ml@¥567EA

(Amounts above are approx. US$2.77 and US$5.67 respectively, Japanese 5% consumption tax included.)

I don't know which is "better" for our de-yellowing application. But since most people are agreed that both Ethanol and Phosphoric acid are "too small to be significant 'stabilizers'" then it is clear that I will be using the lower cost version of Oxydol in my de-yellowing work.

(Amounts above are approx. US$2.77 and US$5.67 respectively, Japanese 5% consumption tax included.)

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This will really make you unhappy: I went to Target today and their 1 liter bottle of H202 sells for US $.99, plus .08 cents sales tax. Also, it says right on the bottle, 3% Hydrogen peroxide (stabilized), though it doesn't go into the details. Given your little birdy's input, it gives me some pause for concern in that it is generally applied directly into an open wound and thus the bloodstream. More concern than it may harm a yellowed case. However, I cannot fathom how the FDA would actually knowingly allow something toxically reactive into such a product. I suspect it is much like the fact that they found measurable elements of pharmaceutical drugs in LA's drinking water, but the concentrations are no where near an amount that could affect anyone during their lifetime (you'd have to drink a swimming pool's worth of water everyday for it to have any effect). Thanks for the info though!

I have one M0001W and one M0001E. The purchases of these different model numbers was purposeful, and I'd like to complete the collection of the first three models with a 128K M0001 model - maybe adde a Plus to mess around with programs that require more memory. To be honest, I get the most enjoyment out of getting them up and running - and then restoring them. Unlike my first two purchases, any additions will likely be broken units.

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It may not be that easy to stop at three. LOL I didn't! I decided to limit it to just the M0001s, then I bought a Colour Classic and decided to expand it to one of every major compact. Then, all their sub-variations, then just 68000 processors ... who knows where this compulsion will take me. Technically, though in addition to the M0001, M0001W & M0001E, there are some other models with exterior differences however identical the internals are which you will need to add to your collection. In particular, there is the M0001 "revised" model with a "Macintosh 128K" badge. There is also an M0001ED which comes in both beige or Platinum, sometimes labeled "Macintosh ED" on the front of a Plus front bezel, though the internals are very much a 512Ke. I would definitely advise having a Plus M0001A as it is the only compact with SCSI that also natively runs software which still officially supports the 128K. Keep 'em all beige and that limits you to just two more models, the Mac Plus and "Macintosh Plus ED". FYI, the Plus can be configured with only 512K, essentially making it a 512Ke with SCSI. I have a Dove SCSI board for my 512Ke which I have been meaning to repair and use – and in particular, try it with a 128Ke. That's only 7 models ... I'm sure you won't have any trouble explaining that ... :beige:

First of all, and sorry I am too lazy/upset to search on this site if it has already been mentioned, but I am really pissed off I cannot click on links in email updates anymore and jump directly to threads via Safari 3.1.2 (on either my Mac at work or my Mac at home). I have to use stupidly slow FireFox 3 now. Because Safari forces me to login every time now-- but more than that, it keeps asking me to login over and over! It's a never ending loop for freaking logins! I am infuriated! Ack! (So I must write this post on Firefox now.)

Rant over... >

Mac128, I checked with a friend who works at a hair salon, I checked with a dentist friend, and I checked with a pharmacist friend here in Japan. All told me the same exact story. You have to have a stupid license to get a hold of H202 in any concentration above 3% in Japan. Don't ask me why because I will then ask you why I have to pay $15 for a cantelope melon and why I have to pay US$2,000 to get a silly driver's license here. It's the nature of Japan. And if they supply me with H202, they could get into big trouble, about the same as if they sold me hardcore drugs. Seriously. Sometimes the Japanese people (the ones who make the laws anyway) can be overbearing in the extreme.

So Oxydol is all we retro computing lovers here have access to, and the variations I've seen are shown above in my previous post. This matters little to you folks from outside Japan, but perhaps it will be helpful to others like me who do live in the land of the rising sun.

UPDATE:

First of all, many thanks to the little bird who just PM'd me about deleting my 68kmla cookies to get Safari working with this site again!

Next, my wife was planning to go shopping today so I asked her to keep an eye out for the lower cost version of Oxydol. She telephoned me a few moments ago to report that out of the 3 stores she went to, they all carry only the higher cost 500ml bottle, which is almost US$6! I can still get the ¥290/bottle stuff over the internet, but there are shipping charges that go along with that, as well as a minimum order on some sites that sell it. A few days ago, I wrote to FBC-USA (the only place I can get a can of chili beans in Japan, for crying out loud) because the US grade 3% H202 is an item they didn't carry. However, they wrote me back to see that because of my request they would carry it. The only catch is that I can only import 1 bottle each time, and one 8oz(240ml) bottle will cost me US$3.58 ("Western Family" brand).

All said, H202 use is an expensive proposition in Japan. :'(

JDW:

Interesting stuff - I went to look at the bottle that my H202 came in. It does say the following:

1) "Topical Solution USP"

2) Where the percentage of Hydrogen Peroxide is diclosed, it is followed by "(Stabilized)"

Despite my lack of knowledge with regard to how to read/interpret labels on H202 bottles, the stuff I used worked just fine and did not attack or degrade the plastics in any way that I can see.

I do agree that you should experiment with plastics that are less valuable to you... I started with my mouse - knowing I could repleace it fairly cheaply on eBay.

Also - I think it was you that asked the question "When will we start to see H202 cleaned Macs show up on eBay?". This one appears to have been cleaned in H202 - I'd guess it was then wiped down with Armorall - looks greasy/slick/wet. http://cgi.ebay.com/1984-1st-Macintosh-Model-M0001-128K-All-Original-NICE_W0QQitemZ360136485853QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item360136485853&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308

You can tell from the serial number label - my H202 treated macs show the same discolored halo around the edges of the serial number sticker where the liquid seaped in at the edges.

Also - I think it was you that asked the question "When will we start to see H202 cleaned Macs show up on eBay?". This one appears to have been cleaned in H202 - I'd guess it was then wiped down with Armorall - looks greasy/slick/wet....You can tell from the serial number label - my H202 treated macs show the same discolored halo around the edges of the serial number sticker where the liquid seaped in at the edges.

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Be careful, that's Danapplemacman you are accusing of not properly disclosing his potentially harmful restoration techniques. You could get this whole thread pulled from this site :beige: I think it was equill or Charliman who suggested not disclosing that kind of restoration in an eBay auction would not be exactly above-board and I wholeheartedly agree – not that it would phase a potential buyer, but truly none of us know the long-term affects of this kind of treatment and a prospective buyer deserves to know. In most case I would imagine the buyer would pay a premium to have the "treatment" performed on a collectable, so as not to have to do it themselves.

I will tell you I have several 128/512 cases that have never touched an H202 bath with that same discoloration around the label. However, since Dan is an avid lurker of our forum (I'm kidding, I have no idea), I would agree they do appear to have been enhanced with some kind of product, whether Armor All, or something as I agree it has a wet look which the original Macs never had. Nor did they under the bright studio lights of the ads and video. If he did use H202, he would have done well to leave the space bar in a bit longer. But this is pure speculation, so Dan if you are reading, or any of your prospective buyers, this is by no means a liable against you, but speculation which only compliments your restoration practices, if not simply a trick of the camera. On the other hand, perhaps he used JDW's 6-dollar a bottle Japanese H202, at least in part explaining that $999.84 price-tag. :beige: Considering this completed auction for a complete working 128K in its original box with software, accessories and manuals for a whopping $400, regardless of condition, I wish Dan good luck.

Be careful, that's Danapplemacman you are accusing of not properly disclosing his potentially harmful restoration techniques.

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Mac128: Duly noted and I should have mentioned that my comment on Dan's eBay auction was only speculation - primarily because that is one seriously clean Mac!

Lumpy

P.S. You'll notice in my pictures that I was not able to fully rid the space bar of its discoloration - as mentioned, the harder plastic does not let go of its yellow color as easily as the rest of the Mac plastics. Also - the 303 Protectant does not leave the case looking glossy like that..

my H202 treated macs show the same discolored halo around the edges of the serial number sticker where the liquid seaped in at the edges.

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Where? I don't see it. (And previously in this thread, you said the serial number on your mouse was "not affected.")

I was not able to fully rid the space bar of its discoloration - as mentioned, the harder plastic does not let go of its yellow color as easily as the rest of the Mac plastics.

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Perhaps that is true only because you used extremely low concentrations of H202? I've not read about others using such low concentrations of H202 in other forums, perhaps because those folks found they could only remove all the yellowing with more H202? Or is it that they want the process to move along more quickly and that's why they use more H202 (i.e., "hours" versus "days" in UV light).

Where? I don't see it. (And previously in this thread, you said the serial number on your mouse was "not affected.")[

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Man - you guys are sticklers! Ok - here goes.... The mouse label was NOT affected when I posted that feedback in this thread. I just double checked. I can post pics tomorrow of the mouse label if it would help. I also just checked the serial number of the compact Mac cases and found them to NOT have a halo any more - so my theory is that they dry out (the last time I looked - fairly soon after dunking - they both had a halo...). So that debunks my theory that Dan's eBay Mac was dunked... unless those pics were taken soon after (before the labels dried out). We may never know - unless Dan shares how he gets his Macs looking so spiffy.

Perhaps that is true only because you used extremely low concentrations of H202? I've not read about others using such low concentrations of H202 in other forums, perhaps because those folks found they could only remove all the yellowing with more H202? Or is it that they want the process to move along more quickly and that's why they use more H202 (i.e., "hours" versus "days" in UV light).

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In the other forums, I think the plastics they are deyellowing are much harder than them Mac plastics - that's the best way I can describe it... It's only a theory. I have had more than satisfactory results at 3% or less solution in 6 or less hours out in the sun - with one exception, my space bar. I've put the space bar in every batch of solution I've made (I think 4 at this point) - each batch being out for about 6 hours - the space bar has lost more yellow each time, but not all of it.

To be honest, some of the pictures in the other forums scare me a little - the 30%+ concentration of H202 appears to attack the plastic and anything else that is subjected to it. You can see evidence of white blooming and uneven lightening of the plastic. With my Macs and the relatively lesser concentration of H202, I've seen excellent results.

I think you have to wonder what the long term effects are on the plastic - but from what I've seen, this is really safe. I'm itching for someone else to give this a try here so they can see how well this really works.

Thank you for the details, Lumpy. Sticklers like me certainly appreciate it.

Well, I am now considering all my options. I live in a very safe yet unfriendly country here in Japan. H202 is treated like hardcore drugs. Even the drug store stuff is way overpriced. So I am thinking about making a gel to reduce my costs (and wasted liquid). But now I need to purchase even more hard to find ingredients! Ack!

My first try will be on my IIgs keyboard. The space bar in particular needs de-yellowing.

Thank you for all the details to date. You're my hero, Lumpy!

I should have mentioned that my comment on Dan's eBay auction was only speculation - primarily because that is one seriously clean Mac! ... You'll notice in my pictures that I was not able to fully rid the space bar of its discoloration - as mentioned, the harder plastic does not let go of its yellow color as easily as the rest of the Mac plastics.

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I think danapplemacman is not restoring his cases beyond rubbing some household cleaner on them. Take a look at these 2nd gen mouse, original mouse and keyboard auctions. There's quite a variation of yellowing going on and all the spacebars suffer from jaundice (the mouse buttons too). For those prices, I'd prefer he perform a little H202 dunking. This logicboard picture for instance screams for him to shoot some compressed air over it and remove the dust layer before he photographs it. But I've seen worse. Steve Jobs would never approve though. After all he was the guy who wanted to plate the inside of the Apple II with chrome to enhance the users aesthetic experience when they opened the case and insisted the Mac logicboard look pretty even though no user was ever to open the case!

It seems one must be careful deyellowing spacebars, or perhaps only Mac 128/512 keyboard keys in particular. Have a look at what happened to this poor fellow's spacebar!

Man... the guys on that thread are really frying there stuff.... 30%+ H202 concentration is what they are using if I follow correctly.

I put my spacebar in the 1.5 to 3% percent concentration solution for the 5th time yesterday (along with my 2nd HD20's case - which I just purchased). The spacebar finally looks like the rest of the keys. See pictures here (navigate through the series of pictures using the thumbnails to the right): http://www.flickr.com/photos/33624199@N08/sets/72157614991289408/

I took a bunch of pictures because the flash/lighting can have different effects on the results - it can make keys look different than they are to the naked eye.

Lumpy

Lumpy, in all your photos the spacebar does look lighter than the other keys, but I agree it could be your spacebar simply reflecting the camera flash. To eliminate this, just shoot the keyboard outside and/or use a tripod when shooting, and be sure to kill the flash. And to really get a great photo, white balance the camera first by putting a sheet of white paper in front of the lens, angled to reflect light in a way similar to the keyboard you are shooting. Then we can see the keys and colors in all their glory, just as your own eyes do.

JDW:

I will give that a try. To my eye, the spacebar looks identical to the rest! Pictures once I get a free moment and some daylight. None of he other keys were washed. The surrounding beige plastic was.

Lumpy

I put my spacebar in the 1.5 to 3% percent concentration solution for the 5th time yesterday (along with my 2nd HD20's case - which I just purchased). The spacebar finally looks like the rest of the keys.

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Clearly the formula for the spacebar is to leave it in 5x as long as the rest of the case. I thought this was an extremely helpful thread. You've got a nice history on that spacebar, what would you determine would the be the optimal duration to soak it based on the 3% formula? You should also chime in over there with your 303 Protectant info.

Bunsen, thank you for reposting that link. (It was originally posted here by istar1080.) This is a long thread, so another mention doesn't hurt.

But it is important for all readers of this thread and the retrobright site to keep in mind that Lumpy has done some excellent work here on 68kMLA. And after reading the retrobright site and the Vintage Computer threads, I see that Lumpy's technique is preferred. It uses small, safe amounts of H202 -- and for those of your living outside Japan, that means a cost savings and prevents you from de-yellowing too much too quickly. But perhaps the single most important point we all need to consider is the slightly different method advocated by the RetroBright site versus Lumpy's approach. Lumpy went the all-liquid route. RetroBright is using a paste. If you read through the Vintage Computer threads, you will see how the paste dries and solidifies and flakes. This requires frequent re-applications through the day and, from what I see, can also result in a rather non-uniform de-yellowing if not done with great care. True, Lumpy's approach requires a lot more liquid (and is therefore expensive for people like me who live in Japan), but so long as you keep the parts exposed well to UV, you don't have to worry about your solution drying out and flaking or your de-yellowing job getting patchy results. Lumpy's approach also does not require a blender or even safety googles as are highly recommended when making the RetroBright paste.

So perhaps we need to call the liquid version, LumpyBright? In any case, thank you, LumpyDog.

But it is important for all readers of this thread and the retrobright site to keep in mind that Lumpy has done some excellent work here on 68kMLA. And after reading the retrobright site and the Vintage Computer threads, I see that Lumpy's technique is preferred. ...

So perhaps we need to call the liquid version, LumpyBright? In any case, thank you, LumpyDog.

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Actually, Lumpy is just using the first incarnation of what has become RetrOBright, which is quoted below:

“The problem was finally cracked in late July 2008 with a mixture of hydrogen peroxide, a small amount of an “Oxy” laundry booster as a catalyst and a UV lamp; we believed that this could do the job in hours instead of days. ... “All of the initial tests were done with a liquid and we realised that for large parts this was getting expensive, so the next stage was to develop a paintable “gel” version that could be brushed onto larger surfaces. ... We have now released this to the public domain for anyone to use, as we can’t patent it and we coined the nickname “Retr0bright” for it, as it summed up what we were actually doing with it.”

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So as much as I thank Lumpy for discovering that smaller concentrations work just as well, thereby also reducing cost and improving overall results, I'm afraid very little credit can be attributed solely to him. His discovery of the 303 protectant as a preservative is worth its weight in gold. Perhaps we should call it "RetrOBright/Lumpy-ized".

Actually after tracing the path on the Retrobright page, I discovered that the original English Amiga forum pages have some very interesting background in terms of tracing the evolution of the development of the process. Some good science in there if you're curious. But Merlin has taken credit for creating the magic brew since the beginning, liquid or gel. However, none have ever used as low a concentration as Lumpy.

Congrats on the 512! It's a great little machine that can still connect to a modern network.

The Mac 512k can directly talk to any Mac using Personal File Sharing from System 7 all the way to 9. (AppleShare servers too)

It can also, with a little help, file share with a modern Mac running 10.5! I had a post on here a while back about it. If you'd like more info, let me know!