Thread
An SE/30 that has a socketed motherboard is on eBay
In case any of y'all are interested. The shipping is high though.
Edit: Can someone confirm if this is indeed a socketed CPU? Looks like it is.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=230326391268
Gary
Edit: Can someone confirm if this is indeed a socketed CPU? Looks like it is.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=230326391268
Gary
Yes, I see that it is a gold-capped CPU, but nowhere in the auction photo do I see evidence of a socket. Nowhere in the listing text does it state the CPU is socketed. You are assuming that all the gold-capped CPUs are socketed? Also note that the other socketed chips on the logic board, other than the CPU, are nothing unusual -- see my SE/30 motherboard photo.
Equill, do both your Rev.A & Rev.10 socketed SE/30 logic boards have gold-capped CPUs installed? Do you have any photos showing the socket from the side? (Top-down photos don't show the CPU socket.)
Equill, do both your Rev.A & Rev.10 socketed SE/30 logic boards have gold-capped CPUs installed? Do you have any photos showing the socket from the side? (Top-down photos don't show the CPU socket.)
I have an SE/30 with a socketed motherboard and it looks like the one in the auction. I also have an SE/30 that does not have a socketed CPU. Of course, if I were bidding, I would certainly confirm with the seller the exact specs of the item up for bid.
Related question for you all:
Can anyone tell me if I can just pull the existing stock XC68030RC16B and replace with a XC68030RC50B ? If so, what other macs, amigas, or other computers would have a compatible socketed 50 Mhz 68030 that I might scavenge? Anyone use a good online vendor for this CPU ?
TIA!
Related question for you all:
Can anyone tell me if I can just pull the existing stock XC68030RC16B and replace with a XC68030RC50B ? If so, what other macs, amigas, or other computers would have a compatible socketed 50 Mhz 68030 that I might scavenge? Anyone use a good online vendor for this CPU ?
TIA!
That looks socket mounted to me. Note the shadow on the front and left side of the 68030, and compare with the surface mount ceramic next to it. And when you go to the big photo, the shadow perspective is even clearer, with confirmation on the right hand front side.
The camera is at about 40 degrees to the logic board, focused on the middle (VLSI shouts out), so we can see shadow from various DIP chips on the row behind the 68030 and flash back on the back plate. We don't see much shadow on the surface mounts in front or around the 68030.
The camera is at about 40 degrees to the logic board, focused on the middle (VLSI shouts out), so we can see shadow from various DIP chips on the row behind the 68030 and flash back on the back plate. We don't see much shadow on the surface mounts in front or around the 68030.
I'm 90% sure, like others, that it's a socketed motherboard only because the CPU appears to be slightly higher than most - the CPU in most SE/30s is fairly flush on the motherboard.
In the ~ 10 or so SE/30s I've come across in my life, only two have had socketed CPUS (which I've held onto, but unlikely I'll ever put said functionality to use).
JB
In the ~ 10 or so SE/30s I've come across in my life, only two have had socketed CPUS (which I've held onto, but unlikely I'll ever put said functionality to use).
JB
Yes and the new 50MHz processor will run at 16MHz, unless you change something else. Accelerators are electronically meaty, so they boost the clock speed, provide logic for everything hanging around the PDS slot and attempt to modify everything that uses a timing signal (sound, floppy drive, serial). Typically accelerators require a combination of hardware and a software INIT/CDEV.
Socketed or no, you will be hard pressed to find any accelerator board that will fit into the socket (which is really the only reason to obtain one of these boards). I've read about the Daystar accelerator that fits into the socket, but I've never ever seen one for sale anywhere, including EBAY, over the past 6 years. Indeed, I would say that type of accelerator is harder to find than a Micron Xceed card with grayscale!
Thanks for the info so far everyone. What if I found the correct INIT/CDEV software on the web and tried that? Or do I still need some hardware mods?
BTW, there was an SE/30 on Ebay in the last year and it had a socketed mobo. Came with the original cpu, plus installed Daystar 68030 upgrade connected directly to the socketed motherboard. Don't recall the speed, think it was 33 Mhz. Sold I believe in the $200 US range.
BTW, there was an SE/30 on Ebay in the last year and it had a socketed mobo. Came with the original cpu, plus installed Daystar 68030 upgrade connected directly to the socketed motherboard. Don't recall the speed, think it was 33 Mhz. Sold I believe in the $200 US range.
But as I just said, there is not good reason to shell out even $100 on a socketed SE/30 logic board unless you have access to the Daystar accelerator that fits into the socket. Who is going to create their own version of Daystar's board and write the necessary software to drive it? Who? So these socketed motherboard auctions serve as little more than a money grab. They provide you with a warm feeling in your heart knowing you have a socketed CPU. That's it. Equill has 2 of these boards, and how has he made use of the sockets?!
I could plead the multiplicity of Macs in my sig. to service (or serve), or blame tomlee59 for not finding and lending to me his round tuit, but the plain fact is ... nuffink. But, if a suitable DayStar PowerCache accelerator were to drop onto my doorstep in the small hours of some morning, and I were to have no socketted MLB, imagine my chagrin.
Truth to tell, I have been occupied for these many moons either with using them or rebuilding and upgrading G4/MDDs for my contracting and my wife's research. I haven't booted a Compact AIO in I don't know how long. Work is the curse of the fiddling classes ...
de
But that's it! It's all about the warm fuzzy! Having part of the dream gives one the hope that someday the socketed processor will be found and the board will be ready for it!
I wouldn't pay the shipping for this one, but I posted this in case someone lived close and could pick it up locally and maybe get a good deal. Who knows, maybe one of the troops has the accelerator and is looking for a socketed CPU board!
Gary
Do any of you have a picture of the elusive Daystar accelerator for the SE/30 socket?
Confirm? Not at this distance. But assert that there is no doubt, no shadow of doubt, no possible doubt whatever (with apology to W.S. Gilbert). For one, as Charlieman noted, the shadow and height-above-board are giveaways. For two, there is the PGA packaging as an even-more-certain giveaway.
JDW has mentioned that he has a monochrome pic. of the socketted accelerator. That's all there is to keep us hoping. Otherwise, it's the landfills for us.
de
I guess I am just odd then. I get warm and fuzzy when I can put classic Macs to good use. Having things and never putting them to use doesn't thrill me. Such would be the case for me if I bought a socketed SE/30 board and waited around until I could put that socket to proper use.
If I seriously thought there would be a chance of my ever getting a socket Daystar SE/30 card, I would snap up a socketed SE/30 board in a heartbeat. Most of you out there know what an SE/30 nut I am. But again, there would be more of a chance of my obtaining a reasonably priced Micron Xceed with grayscale than that socketed accelerator. And you know, I've had the chance to buy the Micron video card WITHOUT the grayscale adapter, but I passed. It was uninteresting to me because I couldn't get the complete set.
But, you never know. People do win millions in the lottery. Those people aren't me, but maybe they are you. You never know with statistics. But for me, I will wait to purchase the socketed SE/30 motherboard AFTER I've received a Daystar socketed accelerator on my doorstep. And with my luck, it will probably be AFTER Equill has one on his doorstep! :I
I have an SE/30 mobo just like the auction one and it has the socketed gold topped CPU. The socket itself is almost 1/4 inch tall - I'd say the one in the auction is socketed from the appearance and shadow; however if I were buying solely on that reason I'd check with the seller. As JDW states - were all gold topped CPU's socketed? My mobo is dated 1988 and has an "engineering change" on the back side - a little green wire put on likely due to an error in the traces (I recall this discussion some time ago about a Classic or Classic II mobo with a blue wire and this was the explanation given).
I own one of the mysterious Daystar boards (a 50MHz full 68030) but as it is in service, photos will have to wait a long time. Scanning the manual may be an easier proposition. I bought my accelerator new in box from a UK mail order supplier about ten years ago for about £25. The operator with whom I spoke on the phone had never head of it before, but they had five or six in stock. I have been kicking myself ever since for not buying the lot.
I know that a few people have been looking at reworking the IIcx adapter from Daystar that plugs into the 68030 and provides a IIci cache slot. A version for the SE/30, the target, would allow for an accelerator whilst leaving the original PDS slot available for other enhancements without creating a PDS Christmas tree.
I know that a few people have been looking at reworking the IIcx adapter from Daystar that plugs into the 68030 and provides a IIci cache slot. A version for the SE/30, the target, would allow for an accelerator whilst leaving the original PDS slot available for other enhancements without creating a PDS Christmas tree.
Happy to...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16539524@N00/3295765835/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16539524@N00/3295765791/
I got this board in a large Freecycle load. Apparently NOS and looks to be so. I can't decide if I should put this into an SE/30 case that currently is built as an SE Superdrive or keep it as is. That gold top CPU sure is nice to look at
Steve, you need to give guidance to Charlieman on how to break out a camera and use it to snap photos of old Mac equipment within a realistic time frame. However, I suppose there's no good reason for Charlieman to make us all lust after something we never have even the faintest hope of owning. Lust aside, I am curious what the Daystar socket upgrades look like. That's precisely why I shoot so many classic Mac photos of my stuff and put them on Flickr (i.e., do unto others as you would have done to you).
So why all this talk about socketed motherboards and Daystar socketed upgrades in the first place? One lone reason: internal grayscale with acceleration. Which is of course a rather silly reason because even if I were ever to obtain a coveted socket upgrade, I would then need to pay through the nose to get a socketed logic board, and then I would have to sell a kidney to get an Xceed card with a grayscale adapter. But if I were able to get all of those parts, how glorious an SE/30 it would be! You could then have acceleration in the CPU socket, freeing you to add a grayscale PDS card AND possibly an Ethernet PDS card as well. That's really my dream setup. I have a semi-dream setup now with my 50MHz 030 DiiMO and 128MB of RAM -- all that's missing is just the internal grayscale.
All said, it does seem kind of funny I am even lusting after this at all. People who aren't classic Mac enthusiasts must think we are nuts. And perhaps we partly are. That's the fun in being a Mac lover. Our Macs love us back even though we're nuts.
So why all this talk about socketed motherboards and Daystar socketed upgrades in the first place? One lone reason: internal grayscale with acceleration. Which is of course a rather silly reason because even if I were ever to obtain a coveted socket upgrade, I would then need to pay through the nose to get a socketed logic board, and then I would have to sell a kidney to get an Xceed card with a grayscale adapter. But if I were able to get all of those parts, how glorious an SE/30 it would be! You could then have acceleration in the CPU socket, freeing you to add a grayscale PDS card AND possibly an Ethernet PDS card as well. That's really my dream setup. I have a semi-dream setup now with my 50MHz 030 DiiMO and 128MB of RAM -- all that's missing is just the internal grayscale.
All said, it does seem kind of funny I am even lusting after this at all. People who aren't classic Mac enthusiasts must think we are nuts. And perhaps we partly are. That's the fun in being a Mac lover. Our Macs love us back even though we're nuts.
Well actually, the amazing things these so-called "nuts" create are like this -- which, sadly, are wonderful modern add-ons that I've not seen for the compact Mac. True, the Mac is a more complex beast. Even so, there are just so many things one could do with the SE/30's PDS slot! I've mentioned this in another thread, but I would just love to see a flash disk that works in the SE/30 via PDS, theoretically bypassing the rather slow SCSI implementation.
It would have no effect whatsoever.
The CPU speed is set by an oscillator on the motherboard. That is part of the reason all CPU accelerators have an extra electronics board between the CPU and the motherboard. There's another oscillator (and other stuff) on that board that sets the upgrade CPU's speed.
And before you ask - no - swapping out the motherboard oscillator for a faster one won't get you up to 50MHz either. Every other component on the motherboard is specified for the 16MHz clock as well. At best, you might be able to get to 20MHz. Output Enablers have oscillator kits.
[mistake redacted]
All of the PowerCache cards that I have seen use the MC68030RC50B chip, which may well have been the latest revision then available. None of the 030s wears a heatsink. By 2005 there was a revision C. While all things are possible, I have to doubt that Motorola, or Freescale, would go to the trouble of producing a revised processor with 0.8 micron technology only so that it could be clocked up 25%, rather than be designed for 50MHz from the outset.
We know/suspect that many components are classified after manufacture into less than, spot on and more than before they are labelled, but rev. C 50MHz 68030s would not fit convincingly into that paradigm. It would be interesting to know the unit price of the rev. C chip.
de
Ahem. Clearly there is bloodlust associated with this socketed motherboard and related accelerator card. So much so that my previous post was overlooked. :beige: So again I ask: did Apple actually manufacture the SE/30 with a socketed CPU, or was this a this party modification specifically for the aforementioned card? If Apple produced the board, why? To accommodate the third party companies, or some nefarious internal project of their own?
I believe the earliest of these boards were manufactured this way. The one I have has not been modified, and I seem to recall reading this to be the case somewhere.
UPDATE: According Larry Pina's book "Mac Classic & SE Repair and Upgrade Secrets" there were two SE/30 motherboards:
P/N 820-0260-10, 1988 (this is the one I have)
P/N 820-0260-A, 1989
This link has pictures of the 1989 board, top and bottom views: http://www.kevinomura.com/macs/se30/index.html
Notice the little wire (the "engineering change") on the underside is not present on this one....
Allow me to muddy the waters further. In five SE/30 MLBs, only one of which is in use, I have just found the following:
1) 820-0260-10 dated 1988 on the MLB, socketted for a CPU, soldered-in MC68882FN16A, assembled in Singapore. A white sticker next to the PDS connector shows SG9200TA198A. On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned directly under the socket.
2) 820-0260-A dated 1989 on the MLB, socketted for a CPU, soldered-in MC68882FN16A, labelled as assembled in Singapore in 1989 (SG9...). A white sticker next to the PDS connector shows SG940J0E380A. On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned directly under the socket.
3) 820-0260-A and 640-4198, dated 1989 on the MLB, soldered-in MC68030RP16B and MC68882FN16A, labelled as assembled in Singapore in 1989 (SG9...). A ? sticker next to the PDS connector shows ? (The Mac is reassembled at the moment.) On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned between the socket and the PDS. This MLB is in use in a 32MB/4GB/MacCon 30si machine.
4) 820-0260-A, dated 1989 on the MLB, soldered-in MC68030RP16B and MC68882FN16A, labelled as assembled in Ireland in 1991 (CK1...). A buff sticker next to the PDS connector shows CK1071S900YA. On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned between the socket and the PDS.
5) 820-0260-10 and 640-4198-V, dated 1988 on the MLB, socketted for a CPU, soldered-in MC68882FN16A, assembled in (?). An orange sticker next to the PDS connector shows BK9042591. On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned directly under the socket. This is the MLB that I mentioned in another post as having the broken Bank B RAM clips. This may be the oldest of the five boards, although the manuscript 'V' after the inventory/part number may contradict that.
Seemingly, there are socketted and non-socketted MLBs in both revisions. Nothing indicated that the sockets are after-market additions by a third party. The traces around C70 and C71 are part of the board's original layout in all cases.
de
Supplemented on 23 Feb. 09
1) 820-0260-10 dated 1988 on the MLB, socketted for a CPU, soldered-in MC68882FN16A, assembled in Singapore. A white sticker next to the PDS connector shows SG9200TA198A. On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned directly under the socket.
2) 820-0260-A dated 1989 on the MLB, socketted for a CPU, soldered-in MC68882FN16A, labelled as assembled in Singapore in 1989 (SG9...). A white sticker next to the PDS connector shows SG940J0E380A. On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned directly under the socket.
3) 820-0260-A and 640-4198, dated 1989 on the MLB, soldered-in MC68030RP16B and MC68882FN16A, labelled as assembled in Singapore in 1989 (SG9...). A ? sticker next to the PDS connector shows ? (The Mac is reassembled at the moment.) On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned between the socket and the PDS. This MLB is in use in a 32MB/4GB/MacCon 30si machine.
4) 820-0260-A, dated 1989 on the MLB, soldered-in MC68030RP16B and MC68882FN16A, labelled as assembled in Ireland in 1991 (CK1...). A buff sticker next to the PDS connector shows CK1071S900YA. On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned between the socket and the PDS.
5) 820-0260-10 and 640-4198-V, dated 1988 on the MLB, socketted for a CPU, soldered-in MC68882FN16A, assembled in (?). An orange sticker next to the PDS connector shows BK9042591. On the underside of the board, C70 and C71 are positioned directly under the socket. This is the MLB that I mentioned in another post as having the broken Bank B RAM clips. This may be the oldest of the five boards, although the manuscript 'V' after the inventory/part number may contradict that.
Seemingly, there are socketted and non-socketted MLBs in both revisions. Nothing indicated that the sockets are after-market additions by a third party. The traces around C70 and C71 are part of the board's original layout in all cases.
de
Supplemented on 23 Feb. 09
A socketed CPU in one of Apple's flagship products!? And from the beginning to boot ... what were they thinking? Surely they didn't do that for just third party manufacturers to take advantage of ... clearly Apple had plans for it that they abandoned, probably after the SE/30 began to erode sales from their high-end Macs.
Speculations could run rife this long after the event, but some may have germs of truth in them. Recalling the reported difficulty that Apple engineers had in getting some capacities incorporated into MLBs, even to the point of having to resort sometimes to subterfuge (Classic II, perhaps?), it is just possible that the SE/30, as the 'wickedest' of the closed-box AIOs, did have some grand things conceived for it as possible aftermarket upgrades. If that was canned, it still left the way open for a company such as DayStar to be invited, overtly or covertly, to consider a plug-in CPU replacement. DayStar did offer to replace soldered-in CPUs with socketted CPUs at one stage, but they and others settled for the PDS in the end.
I have seen the SE/30 referred to as a 'condensed IIcx', which makes it clear that if the IIcx can be made into a zinger (mine has a DayStar 33MHz PowerCache), the SE/30 might have done at least as well with a socketted adapter and a suitable accelerator-card, and thereby saved the PDS for other expansions. The saddest part, however, is the apparent disappearance of all things to do with CPU-oriented plug-ins, with the PDS-oriented not far behind.
de
I have seen the SE/30 referred to as a 'condensed IIcx', which makes it clear that if the IIcx can be made into a zinger (mine has a DayStar 33MHz PowerCache), the SE/30 might have done at least as well with a socketted adapter and a suitable accelerator-card, and thereby saved the PDS for other expansions. The saddest part, however, is the apparent disappearance of all things to do with CPU-oriented plug-ins, with the PDS-oriented not far behind.
de
At the same time that Apple produced SE/30 variants with socketed/soldered 68030s, they did the same thing with the IIcx. Hence the existence of the Daystar IIcx PowerCache adapter that provides a IIci cache slot from a 68030 socket. I own one of the IIcx adapters, as does at least one other member here.
Don't ascribe the existence of socketed/soldered boards to commercial conspiracy -- it is more likely that Apple adjusted their production lines according to what Motorola could ship. The 68030 was a very desirable chip, so whilst Apple may have been the best customer, they may have needed to be flexible for a few years.
Daystar became very cosy with Apple in late 1992 and 1993, in order to create the PPC 601 accelerators. Before that time, there is evidence of cosiness in the way that IIci PowerCache accelerators are so well supported, particularly in A/UX. The manual for my SE/30 68030 socket accelerator PowerCache is dated 1992.
As Equill notes, owners of a soldered processor board could return it *for free* for a socket transplant. If the SE/30 production lines were shifting predominantly to soldered processors, this would provide an incentive to Daystar to produce an accelerator for the PDS slot.
Don't ascribe the existence of socketed/soldered boards to commercial conspiracy -- it is more likely that Apple adjusted their production lines according to what Motorola could ship. The 68030 was a very desirable chip, so whilst Apple may have been the best customer, they may have needed to be flexible for a few years.
Daystar became very cosy with Apple in late 1992 and 1993, in order to create the PPC 601 accelerators. Before that time, there is evidence of cosiness in the way that IIci PowerCache accelerators are so well supported, particularly in A/UX. The manual for my SE/30 68030 socket accelerator PowerCache is dated 1992.
As Equill notes, owners of a soldered processor board could return it *for free* for a socket transplant. If the SE/30 production lines were shifting predominantly to soldered processors, this would provide an incentive to Daystar to produce an accelerator for the PDS slot.
What Motorola could supply in the way of 68030/16MHz processors at any given moment throughout the 2-3 years of the SE/30 and IIcx is indeed a plausible reason for Apple to have given itself the ability to switch at will from socketted to soldered-in assembly. I have fewer IIcx socketted MLBs (to wit, 1) than I have socketted SE/30 MLBs, but I have the impression that that for the IIcx is much less commonly found.
Physical as well as electronic considerations impelled DayStar's dedicated adapter for the IIcx, but the SE/30 and IIsi share a PDS electrically, if not the geometric orientation of an attached adapter card. I have two (differing) IIsi/IIci PDS adapters, one of which is more suited to the SE/30 in its shape. Was there a dedicated IIsi/IIci adapter for the SE/30? Or have I misremembered what JDW's monochrome pic. is about?
de
Physical as well as electronic considerations impelled DayStar's dedicated adapter for the IIcx, but the SE/30 and IIsi share a PDS electrically, if not the geometric orientation of an attached adapter card. I have two (differing) IIsi/IIci PDS adapters, one of which is more suited to the SE/30 in its shape. Was there a dedicated IIsi/IIci adapter for the SE/30? Or have I misremembered what JDW's monochrome pic. is about?
de
It's exactly as simple * - to go up a small amount, say to 18 or 20MHz, tops. No way are you getting to 50MHz without something asplodicating.
Think about it - would you expect a 1966 Volkswagen beetle to do 250MPH, even with a Ferrari engine in it? That's what you're asking the poor little SE/30 to do, to run every component inside more than three times as fast as it was built for - and it's a twenty year old machine.
No matter how many times you ask, the answer will be the same - not gonna happen without a proper upgrade card with a separate clock - and no, you can't build one.
BTW, we bottom post and edit quotes here >
* /edit/ in fact the Master says Not Possible!
Think about it - would you expect a 1966 Volkswagen beetle to do 250MPH, even with a Ferrari engine in it? That's what you're asking the poor little SE/30 to do, to run every component inside more than three times as fast as it was built for - and it's a twenty year old machine.
No matter how many times you ask, the answer will be the same - not gonna happen without a proper upgrade card with a separate clock - and no, you can't build one.
BTW, we bottom post and edit quotes here >
* /edit/ in fact the Master says Not Possible!
It's the same on the Newton. You can't accelerator it and retain serial port functionality at the same time. That's why many Newton acceleration solutions have a switch. But an SE/30 would be a different case. I would think that you would really need to have the acceleration and access to your I/O ports at the same time, making a switch an unrealistic solution here.