Thread
The Quote button
Seriously? You took off the Quote button?
****, let's take off the Reply button too. If no one can post, no one can disobey the numerous and increasing rules.
edited by jt, let's not get vulgar, that rule has NEVER changed and the tags still work just fine, but you need to copy/paste!
****, let's take off the Reply button too. If no one can post, no one can disobey the numerous and increasing rules.
edited by jt, let's not get vulgar, that rule has NEVER changed and the tags still work just fine, but you need to copy/paste!
Sometimes I question why I allow myself to be treated to this... Arg. This is just horrible.
Time to make a new 68k Forum
Nah, just kidding. I guess we'll have to live with lot's more work for voluntary posting that if made to hard could make this forum a desert. You've gotta be careful with such experiments! You could lose lot's of people.
Time to make a new 68k Forum
Nah, just kidding. I guess we'll have to live with lot's more work for voluntary posting that if made to hard could make this forum a desert. You've gotta be careful with such experiments! You could lose lot's of people.
You know, until this thread came up I didn't notice the quote button on the reply page... I also didn't realize you can select the text to quote rather than quoting the whole post and editing by hand.
Not me – I'm actually further ahead than I was before... this is the biggest leap for me since I discovered the copy and paste functions – I can't believe I used to print everything out and then OCR it back in!
;-)
Anybody who used quotes in a reasonable manner shouldn't be affected anyway. If it takes you even fifteen full additional seconds to find the text you wanted to talk about and then add the quote syntax around it, it should be fine. It's not like you're being paid to post more often or to be able to post very quickly.
I've ignored the war room discussion about this issue, so I was just as surprised as anyone else. That being said, I didn't have any problem at all quoting something for context in the first post I made after the change.
IMHO, get over it, reducing signal to noise ratios are generally a VERY GOOD THING! I've always tried to use either an ellipse ( . . . ) or a < snip > tag when editing a quote down to the minimum size necessary to provide context. Editing a Quote down to individual questions for giving individual answers to multiple questions within a single post is a good practice too. All required as much, or more, copying/pasting than it'll take to make a well edited context providing quote without using the old button.
If the threads become more compact/less visual noise, methinks we'll see MORE postings and gain in membership, not lose ground.
IMHO, get over it, reducing signal to noise ratios are generally a VERY GOOD THING! I've always tried to use either an ellipse ( . . . ) or a < snip > tag when editing a quote down to the minimum size necessary to provide context. Editing a Quote down to individual questions for giving individual answers to multiple questions within a single post is a good practice too. All required as much, or more, copying/pasting than it'll take to make a well edited context providing quote without using the old button.
If the threads become more compact/less visual noise, methinks we'll see MORE postings and gain in membership, not lose ground.
The thing is, though, that if nested quotes is the issue, how is someone supposed to easily follow the flow of the conversation? If I quote a message that replies to a prior message then the person reading my reply is only getting part of the conversation. Someone who looks only at the new entries may not realize something has already be said and post the same information that someone else did earlier in the topic. Now instead of nested quotes you have repetition of the same question/answer or information which is confusing. With all the replies quoted someone can easily see the entire conversation at a glance and not repeat what someone else has already said.
I don't see that as a problem, in the old days it was: RTFM!
Here, it's: RTFThread! If there are two or three snippets you really NEED to add to your post for context, go ahead, you can even nest the freakin' things if you really WANT to!
The fact that's it's done by manual input now will clear up a LOT of nested clutter and raise the signal to noise ratio significantly.
There's been far too little previewing & editing being done before hitting the Submit Button going on here for a long time. I do a lot of my .TXT entry in a .TXT editor OFFLINE, including the HTML tagging, just to save time for better things and reading the threads when I'm online.
I guess it's a matter of taste, but there has been a LOT of abuse of the quote function going on around here.
IMHO, naturally! :lisa:
Here, it's: RTFThread! If there are two or three snippets you really NEED to add to your post for context, go ahead, you can even nest the freakin' things if you really WANT to!
The fact that's it's done by manual input now will clear up a LOT of nested clutter and raise the signal to noise ratio significantly.
There's been far too little previewing & editing being done before hitting the Submit Button going on here for a long time. I do a lot of my .TXT entry in a .TXT editor OFFLINE, including the HTML tagging, just to save time for better things and reading the threads when I'm online.
I guess it's a matter of taste, but there has been a LOT of abuse of the quote function going on around here.
IMHO, naturally! :lisa:
Look at it this way: pretend this is the real internet again, not the WWW, where it was common practice to actually read through a newsgroup's posting threads and the signal to noise ratio was far better than it has become here with all the nested full length quotes.
As I said before, it is still possible to do nested quotes, it just takes a little work now, if it's not worth doing the work, it's probably not all that necessary. Copy, paste and tag anything absolutely necessary for context and then edit it down to bare bones yet again. Use of the preview button repeatedly until you're absolutely sure your post is clear, succinct, spelled correctly and maybe even check your grammar!
Furthermore, look at it the way a lurker or first time visitor would see it reading through repetitive, unnecessary nested quotage to get to actual content.
Again it's a matter of taste, but not just that, it is also one of planning for the long term health of the 68kMLA.
As an uninvolved (in the war room discussion) moderator, I'm getting tired of this thread and will padlock it within a day or two. So get your licks in ASAP!
I am in complete agreement with Osgeld and his JLPicard pic was spot on perfect commentary.
Shockingly, I'm not going to quote anyone here.
As a relatively recent and relatively uninvolved member of this nice little piece of the internet, my opinion probably means an infinitesimal amount, but I'm airing it anyway.
Back in the days of newsgroups, people /did/ read threads. People who used newsgroups also tended to be technical types anyway, or at least devoted enough to put up with the primitive user interface of tools like rn.
With the advent of the world wide web, and especially the Social Web (oh by the way, do we have a "like" button yet? ), people have been getting lazier and lazier. The design of functional, elegant, and consistent user interfaces allowed them to be lazy and still participate.
Removing features from the user interface that make it easy to create coherent posts (and easy to annoy other people) will without doubt reduce the snR on a board. It will also cut away a decent chunk of "potential signal" - those who perhaps would like to participate in the discussion but are daunted on one of many possible levels. (Believe it or not, quoting someone to cut into a thread a bit is actually somewhat useful as a device to avoid awkwardness!)
Sure, we care here enough to stick around. But will other people who might have worthwhile contributions to make? :sadmac:
Just my 2¢ on the matter ... well it would be if they hadn't phased out the copper coins ...
As a relatively recent and relatively uninvolved member of this nice little piece of the internet, my opinion probably means an infinitesimal amount, but I'm airing it anyway.
Back in the days of newsgroups, people /did/ read threads. People who used newsgroups also tended to be technical types anyway, or at least devoted enough to put up with the primitive user interface of tools like rn.
With the advent of the world wide web, and especially the Social Web (oh by the way, do we have a "like" button yet?
), people have been getting lazier and lazier. The design of functional, elegant, and consistent user interfaces allowed them to be lazy and still participate.Removing features from the user interface that make it easy to create coherent posts (and easy to annoy other people) will without doubt reduce the snR on a board. It will also cut away a decent chunk of "potential signal" - those who perhaps would like to participate in the discussion but are daunted on one of many possible levels. (Believe it or not, quoting someone to cut into a thread a bit is actually somewhat useful as a device to avoid awkwardness!)
Sure, we care here enough to stick around. But will other people who might have worthwhile contributions to make? :sadmac:
Just my 2¢ on the matter ... well it would be if they hadn't phased out the copper coins ...
By reading it?
Exhibit A: fail.
Exhibit B: fail.
To spell it out for the hard of learning, here is Exhibit A with the quotespam removed. The misuse of quoting in that thread adds nothing to the clarity of the conversation - it is just screen cruft. You have copied the exact same information, twice, to no conceivable purpose.
You all need to re-familiarize yourselves with the forum rules, in particular the last clause.
I'm feeling a distinct sense of déja vu...Perhaps if people could easily edit their posts they could tidy up some of their quotes?
Anyway, for those who are stilling banging on about this, seriously it's not that hard to adapt to such a minor change as this – that's why we [mostly] have large brains and opposable thumbs...
All you're going to accomplish is encourage people to stop quoting entirely by making it too much work. Not only is it too much work to quote manually, it is also going to be difficult to determine who someone is replying to if when they don't include a quote in their post causing everyone to have to click and scroll back through the thread to figure what the hell the last poster is talking about.
It would be like if I suddenly out of the blue made a remark to you in person about a conversation we had two weeks ago that you no longer remember but I make no reference to that conversation to jog your memory when I make the remark. With no point of reference, you're going to stand there and stare at me like I'm speaking to you in a foreign language. In a very long thread with no quoting, it's going to be too much work to try to guess which post is being replied to.
It would be like if I suddenly out of the blue made a remark to you in person about a conversation we had two weeks ago that you no longer remember but I make no reference to that conversation to jog your memory when I make the remark. With no point of reference, you're going to stand there and stare at me like I'm speaking to you in a foreign language. In a very long thread with no quoting, it's going to be too much work to try to guess which post is being replied to.
. . . tick . . . tick . . . tick . . . tick . . . pause . . .
OK, we'vwe had some thoughtful, non-emotional posts by some new and some already parcipitating comrades, so the padlock warning is suspended for a bit yet.
Let's have some creative ideas about how to handle this situation, so that new recruits and less than net-ready comrades can be instructed by the membership on internet etiquette.
This would preferably be accomplished WITHOUT a lot of PMs flying about and overburdening the mod/admin staff.
I'm kickin' around a few notions, but let's hear from the membership . . . no voting, it's NOT a democracy . . . but suggestions and creative solutions are always welcome!
jt :lisa:
OK, we'vwe had some thoughtful, non-emotional posts by some new and some already parcipitating comrades, so the padlock warning is suspended for a bit yet.
Let's have some creative ideas about how to handle this situation, so that new recruits and less than net-ready comrades can be instructed by the membership on internet etiquette.
This would preferably be accomplished WITHOUT a lot of PMs flying about and overburdening the mod/admin staff.
I'm kickin' around a few notions, but let's hear from the membership . . . no voting, it's NOT a democracy . . . but suggestions and creative solutions are always welcome!
jt :lisa:
I normally try to avoid bickering and threads that are about to go up in flames, but since Trash80 is welcoming a bit of feedback...
While it may have been a bit petty of the admins to remove the Quote button, I do think it will cut down on the amount of first reply's to a thread that quote the ENTIRE first post. That's just silliness. Of, course that's what you are replying to. It doesn't need to be quoted.
So far, I've quoted a few people just fine from the "Post a reply" page - and even learned that I can just select part of the post and click the quote button. That should more than suffice for my needs and I don't see it as a real inconvenience.
I've always loved this discussion forum, but some of the argueing and immaturity at times has driven me away. If you look at the old forum archive I originally joined in 2002, and I remember when the group started on the old MacAddict forums, but I've only participated from time to time. After a while it just gets to be not fun... and collecting, restoring, and discussing these old machines should be fun!
Sorry, if I got on a bit of a tangent, but I've wanted to get that off my chest for a while now.
If there is anything that I, personally, can do to make this forum better please let me know.
While it may have been a bit petty of the admins to remove the Quote button, I do think it will cut down on the amount of first reply's to a thread that quote the ENTIRE first post. That's just silliness. Of, course that's what you are replying to. It doesn't need to be quoted.
So far, I've quoted a few people just fine from the "Post a reply" page - and even learned that I can just select part of the post and click the quote button. That should more than suffice for my needs and I don't see it as a real inconvenience.
I've always loved this discussion forum, but some of the argueing and immaturity at times has driven me away. If you look at the old forum archive I originally joined in 2002, and I remember when the group started on the old MacAddict forums, but I've only participated from time to time. After a while it just gets to be not fun... and collecting, restoring, and discussing these old machines should be fun!
Sorry, if I got on a bit of a tangent, but I've wanted to get that off my chest for a while now.
If there is anything that I, personally, can do to make this forum better please let me know.
I will admit to being a little guilty of Quote-button overuse until prodded. I used to be really good about it, but got lazy, and hadn't even noticed I was 'offending' until someone prodded. (Although it would have been appreciated had the prodding been both more obvious, and more polite. I hadn't even realized what the prodding was about until this thread was created.)
Very cool, comrade! Taking even constructive criticism can be difficult. It seems you've got a bit of ye olde gentlemanly style about you!
Some of the "new recruits" in the MLA would be never be considered noobs ANYWHERE!
Postcount incentives are VERBOTEN! So no go on that suggestion, sorry.
Lets have some creative solutions posted here gang!
Meanwhile, I'll read over the war room discussion about this subject (that I was apparently remiss in ignoring :I ) and mull over my own notions.
Have at it members new/old/young/aged . . . and the silly lamp is still lit, so we can keep this light hearted . . .
. . . the comic relief a few posts back was much needed and quite refreshing!
)
Some of the "new recruits" in the MLA would be never be considered noobs ANYWHERE!
Postcount incentives are VERBOTEN! So no go on that suggestion, sorry.
Lets have some creative solutions posted here gang!
Meanwhile, I'll read over the war room discussion about this subject (that I was apparently remiss in ignoring :I ) and mull over my own notions.
Have at it members new/old/young/aged . . . and the silly lamp is still lit, so we can keep this light hearted . . .
. . . the comic relief a few posts back was much needed and quite refreshing!
) inb4lock
Stupid crap like this is why I pretty much never visit here anymore. The admins do something, people don't like it, everyone complains, the admins ignore everyone.
(BTW, the only reason I'm here right now is because ThePurpleCube's host is down and no-one is in their IRC channel right now. I don't even have the 68kMLA bookmarked anymore.)
You guys should get a slogan... like "The 68kMLA... Where all of the mods and admins are like Reflection!"
Stupid crap like this is why I pretty much never visit here anymore. The admins do something, people don't like it, everyone complains, the admins ignore everyone.
This is becoming more and more true...
(BTW, the only reason I'm here right now is because ThePurpleCube's host is down and no-one is in their IRC channel right now. I don't even have the 68kMLA bookmarked anymore.)
You guys should get a slogan... like "The 68kMLA... Where all of the mods and admins are like Reflection!"
I'm just going to come right out and say it. If you feel the need to continually say that we are like a fascist regime, or if you feel the need to say something like...
Seriously, we've got plenty of people posting youtube videos of stuff nobody cares about, talking about how they can't buy anything, or just complaining about being unable to have nice software (abandoned, old or otherwise) just handed to them, that having one fewer is a little bit of a refreshing thing to notice.
That having been said, I would hate to make anyone who legitimately adds to the discussion, or at least doesn't detract from it, feel unwelcome.
The truth is that cycles like these where one single thing becomes incredibly annoying to the mods/admins, and then a rule gets made and enforced, and there's this big communitywide discussion about it, happens all the time. I remember back on the Snitz board, back when LCGuy and I were in the running for most posts, and I was still kind of a n00b myself, in life and on the forum, and I was incredibly unhappy when the postcount displays were turned off. For whatever ridiculous reason, I absolutely loved knowing how many posts the guy above me had, and how awesome I was in terms of 68k Macs because I had more posts.
That was a very different time for me in a lot of ways, and though I sometimes don't think it, I've been told I've grown up a bit since then, which is reassuring to say the least.
All of that having been said, honestly, if you care about the 68k Macs, and the other people around, then just deal with it. So far the feedback seems to be "make these changes less sudden" -- because it's inevitable that they'll happen. This statement exemplifies the problem as I think everyone sees it.
As far as editing things in a text editor as Trash80 mentioned -- I do the same thing. I often open up a sidenote in OneNote or just notepad and tap out what it is I want to say, add the bbcode, then use the preview function very liberally.
Formatting, signatures, avatars, quoting, inline images, and a whole host of other things that we have here on phpBB that we didn't have (or had limited versions of) on Snitz can make it more fun, interesting, and easier for everyone to do everything. But if abused, I have no problems with all of these things being disabled. It's not like the core functionality of the forum, which is to discuss things using text, would change or be affected unless somebody made the immature decision to leave a community because of an administrative action.
Hope this helps, and hope not to have stepped on any feet.
Best,
Cory
... then maybe our loss of you as a member of the community isn't so significant as you personally might think it is.
Seriously, we've got plenty of people posting youtube videos of stuff nobody cares about, talking about how they can't buy anything, or just complaining about being unable to have nice software (abandoned, old or otherwise) just handed to them, that having one fewer is a little bit of a refreshing thing to notice.
That having been said, I would hate to make anyone who legitimately adds to the discussion, or at least doesn't detract from it, feel unwelcome.
The truth is that cycles like these where one single thing becomes incredibly annoying to the mods/admins, and then a rule gets made and enforced, and there's this big communitywide discussion about it, happens all the time. I remember back on the Snitz board, back when LCGuy and I were in the running for most posts, and I was still kind of a n00b myself, in life and on the forum, and I was incredibly unhappy when the postcount displays were turned off. For whatever ridiculous reason, I absolutely loved knowing how many posts the guy above me had, and how awesome I was in terms of 68k Macs because I had more posts.
That was a very different time for me in a lot of ways, and though I sometimes don't think it, I've been told I've grown up a bit since then, which is reassuring to say the least.
All of that having been said, honestly, if you care about the 68k Macs, and the other people around, then just deal with it. So far the feedback seems to be "make these changes less sudden" -- because it's inevitable that they'll happen. This statement exemplifies the problem as I think everyone sees it.
If I've interpreted that correctly -- it's definitely something we can work on. I'm not going to claim that as an administrator of the forum, anything I or the other mods/admins does it perfectly, but as it has been said, one of the rules definitely is that mod/administrator decisions are final. So there's no use really crying over this spilt milk. Nobody has really provided any compelling reason to turn the quote button back on, especially since everybody already learned new ways to do the same thing nearly just as efficiently, as it was predicted would happen.
As far as editing things in a text editor as Trash80 mentioned -- I do the same thing. I often open up a sidenote in OneNote or just notepad and tap out what it is I want to say, add the bbcode, then use the preview function very liberally.
Formatting, signatures, avatars, quoting, inline images, and a whole host of other things that we have here on phpBB that we didn't have (or had limited versions of) on Snitz can make it more fun, interesting, and easier for everyone to do everything. But if abused, I have no problems with all of these things being disabled. It's not like the core functionality of the forum, which is to discuss things using text, would change or be affected unless somebody made the immature decision to leave a community because of an administrative action.
Hope this helps, and hope not to have stepped on any feet.
Best,
Cory
Actually, since I've been back, almost a year now, I don't think ANY thread of this type has EVER had EVERYONE say they don't like any individual change of policy/enforcement of existing rules, much less ever have even a perceivable percentage of the membership actually post to COMPLAIN in one of these threads.
AFAIK no rules have actually changed. IIRC, MR was banned for being pugnacious, unrelenting in his constant complaining about almost everything under the sun and, most especially, for his obstinant refusal to remove his commercial advert. No matter how long it remained "under the radar." the simple fact is that it was always against the rules and no amount of what he "perceived as toleration" made it any less of a rule violation.
It's actually interesting that you bring his ghost back into this discussion, because the barracks have seemed to me to be a much more laid back place without his presence here, but that's just a personal observation. I tried very hard to get him to settle down, in the forums and by PM, but he managed to dig his own grave.
Whatever, that was post was way off topic, we're actually trying to come up with solutions here. If anyone dislikes the culture here in this community. they are free to leave, but jumping back in here and into a discussion in order to toss a molotov cocktail because the place you'd rather be visiting is down, would be considered rude across all the internet I've ever experienced.
Whatever . . . :
. . . the Padlock Pause is STILL in effect, so let's hear some serious, well thought out, politely expressed commentary and, hopefully, a couple of outside the box suggestions for fixing this problem/impasse!
AFAIK no rules have actually changed. IIRC, MR was banned for being pugnacious, unrelenting in his constant complaining about almost everything under the sun and, most especially, for his obstinant refusal to remove his commercial advert. No matter how long it remained "under the radar." the simple fact is that it was always against the rules and no amount of what he "perceived as toleration" made it any less of a rule violation.
It's actually interesting that you bring his ghost back into this discussion, because the barracks have seemed to me to be a much more laid back place without his presence here, but that's just a personal observation. I tried very hard to get him to settle down, in the forums and by PM, but he managed to dig his own grave.
Whatever, that was post was way off topic, we're actually trying to come up with solutions here. If anyone dislikes the culture here in this community. they are free to leave, but jumping back in here and into a discussion in order to toss a molotov cocktail because the place you'd rather be visiting is down, would be considered rude across all the internet I've ever experienced.
Whatever . . . :
. . . the Padlock Pause is STILL in effect, so let's hear some serious, well thought out, politely expressed commentary and, hopefully, a couple of outside the box suggestions for fixing this problem/impasse!