Thread
Has anyone noticed how few 512ke's have been on ebay lately? There's been more 1984 Macintosh 128k's than 512ke's and there's been plenty of 512k's.
My guess would be that it's lack of rarity is why it's not appearing.
People are more likely to sell a "rare" 128K than they are a less-rare model. Someone with a 128K is probably more likely to know (or at least suspect) that it may be considered a valuable antique, being the first in the line. Someone with a later model may not suspect that it's worth anything.
People are more likely to sell a "rare" 128K than they are a less-rare model. Someone with a 128K is probably more likely to know (or at least suspect) that it may be considered a valuable antique, being the first in the line. Someone with a later model may not suspect that it's worth anything.
How does that theory account for all the Pluses, SE's, and Classics that are ALWAYS on ebay?
Because those models are actually ridiculously common. The 512ke is in that strange place where it's definitely not "common", but it's not exactly "rare", either. Or, at least, it's not perceived to be rare. I mean, the IBM PC-XT isn't all that common, but it's not rare, either. It wasn't a "first of class", nor a particularly precedent-setting model, either. It's just kind of "blah". Not something that a non-collector would even really notice. Other than maybe "OOH! Is this the original? No? Oh, then it's probably not worth anything, therefore not really worth hawking on eBay."
(Note, choice of XT was because it's a vaguely similar model, timeline-to-its-own-line, the comparison falls apart quickly if you over-analyze it.)
(Note, choice of XT was because it's a vaguely similar model, timeline-to-its-own-line, the comparison falls apart quickly if you over-analyze it.)
I loath the term "rare" simply because the use of it is sadly not rare on EBAY. Put the "rare" label on it and you can deceive more buyers. Seriously. I hate that word. "Rare" in my book does not mean "hard to find." Rare is "an unlikely find" to me. I might be willing to put a "rare" tag on something that crops up on EBAY perhaps once a year. Seriously. I am very, very conservative about the use of that word, mainly because it is used as a weapon all to often against would-be buyers, trying to reap more cash from them than is ethical. And remember, "them = us" a lot of the time. All of us buy or have purchased on EBAY at some point. Without EBAY, where would this site and our vintage Mac community be today. Think about it. So I support EBAY sellers, but I wish them to stay honest and ethical too. Disagree with my feelings on the use of "rare" if you like, but I shall not be dissuaded.
Now with that said, perhaps it is best to not talk about the 512KE in terms of "rare." I like to think of it in terms of "value." There is more value in a Mac Plus than there is in a Mac 512k; hence the Plus should fetch more on EBAY. Yet, a Mac 128k or even a Mac 512k have something that neither the 512KE or the Plus (or any future compact Mac) have: the original 64k ROMs that started it all. There's value in that, folks, even if you wish to argue the inferiority of 64k ROMs versus 128k ROMs. That's why I personally would pay more for a Mac 128k or 512k than a 512kE or Plus any day.
It's all about VALUE.
Now with that said, perhaps it is best to not talk about the 512KE in terms of "rare." I like to think of it in terms of "value." There is more value in a Mac Plus than there is in a Mac 512k; hence the Plus should fetch more on EBAY. Yet, a Mac 128k or even a Mac 512k have something that neither the 512KE or the Plus (or any future compact Mac) have: the original 64k ROMs that started it all. There's value in that, folks, even if you wish to argue the inferiority of 64k ROMs versus 128k ROMs. That's why I personally would pay more for a Mac 128k or 512k than a 512kE or Plus any day.
It's all about VALUE.
Well, nice try, but I wouldn't take these theories to the bank just yet.
First the 512Ke is not all that common. It replaced the low-end line about 4 months after the identical 512/800 did in Europe. Chances are it lasted little more than a year (we don't have an exact date). Since the SE bumped the Plus down to entry level, the 512Ke (which probably wasn't all that popular to begin with) probably got relegated to education only for a while longer. It also got a facelift somewhere around the beginning of '87, becoming Platinum colored and changed to the same front bezel as the Plus, which is probably the rarest of all Macs, but also looks pretty much like a Plus from the front. It also was sold as a Macintosh ED and some even branded as such, so that is an even rarer oddity, but you don't see people getting all worked up over them.
So why aren't they highly prized? That's easy. Because they aren't the first. People wouldn't be clamoring for a 128K if it weren't the first of something. I mean, come on, 128K RAM, hard to create startup disks for it, difficult to use, hard to find early enough software for it ... who would want such a thing? And I love the confusion that crops up on the internet all the time with people thinking that since the 128K is the highly collectable Mac, they think the one with the red 128K label is the first one, cause it says it is what they are looking for! Collectors can be such dolts and sheep. I am always amazed at how they seemingly jump off the deep end without doing any research at all.
The 512K is a cheaper substitute – it was the SECOND Mac ever made! So it still has some cache, yet doesn't cost as much as a 128K (because it wasn't the first). But collectors that pay thousands aren't interested in the poor 512K, which is actually a much more valuable computer due to its usability. And there are far many more 512Ks than 128Ks because it was the first Mac that actually worked the way people wanted it to, including the ability to use a hard disk drive. And sorry JDW, as much as I share your enthusiasm for the 64K ROM chips, most people don't have a clue what's supposed to be on the inside of an original Mac.
But the 512Ke isn't very exotic. It has the heart of a Mac Plus (which are a dime a dozen), it was the 4th Mac ever made, and has none of the "rare" parts which can be used to restore a 128K or 512K. There's just nothing sexy about it in the rush for collectors to get their hands on the first Mac, or as a runner up prize, the second. The thing that kills a 512K for the seller or buyer is that pesky serial number. It's a dead give-away. Or the model number. And of course anybody who actually wants to buy a 68000 Mac to use it, is going to go after a Plus or an SE.
FInally, I question Quadraman's sample. I know for a fact the 128K is not rare at all having built up a database of those offered on eBay for over a year. I agree with JDW that the word is used by sellers on eBay to sensationalize their listing and get novice buyers to forget themselves in the heat of the bidding, buyers who clearly don't do a lick of research. But, I see 512Kes all the time on eBay. In fact many 512Ks are Kes, as many have had the 800K drive upgrade and 128K ROM upgrade. Or they're just listed as 512Ks without even realizing it's actually a 512Ke, and often have to ferret that out by asking the seller questions. I saw one listing where the 512Ke had been "restored" to a 512K, but it had a late '86 serial number! Did the seller just not realize, or was he trying to capitalize on the greater perceived value of a 512K but putting a spare 400K drive into it? I seriously question if he replaced the logicboard or the ROMs, but I could never get that question answered because it was conveniently boxed up already.
First the 512Ke is not all that common. It replaced the low-end line about 4 months after the identical 512/800 did in Europe. Chances are it lasted little more than a year (we don't have an exact date). Since the SE bumped the Plus down to entry level, the 512Ke (which probably wasn't all that popular to begin with) probably got relegated to education only for a while longer. It also got a facelift somewhere around the beginning of '87, becoming Platinum colored and changed to the same front bezel as the Plus, which is probably the rarest of all Macs, but also looks pretty much like a Plus from the front. It also was sold as a Macintosh ED and some even branded as such, so that is an even rarer oddity, but you don't see people getting all worked up over them.
So why aren't they highly prized? That's easy. Because they aren't the first. People wouldn't be clamoring for a 128K if it weren't the first of something. I mean, come on, 128K RAM, hard to create startup disks for it, difficult to use, hard to find early enough software for it ... who would want such a thing? And I love the confusion that crops up on the internet all the time with people thinking that since the 128K is the highly collectable Mac, they think the one with the red 128K label is the first one, cause it says it is what they are looking for! Collectors can be such dolts and sheep. I am always amazed at how they seemingly jump off the deep end without doing any research at all.
The 512K is a cheaper substitute – it was the SECOND Mac ever made! So it still has some cache, yet doesn't cost as much as a 128K (because it wasn't the first). But collectors that pay thousands aren't interested in the poor 512K, which is actually a much more valuable computer due to its usability. And there are far many more 512Ks than 128Ks because it was the first Mac that actually worked the way people wanted it to, including the ability to use a hard disk drive. And sorry JDW, as much as I share your enthusiasm for the 64K ROM chips, most people don't have a clue what's supposed to be on the inside of an original Mac.
But the 512Ke isn't very exotic. It has the heart of a Mac Plus (which are a dime a dozen), it was the 4th Mac ever made, and has none of the "rare" parts which can be used to restore a 128K or 512K. There's just nothing sexy about it in the rush for collectors to get their hands on the first Mac, or as a runner up prize, the second. The thing that kills a 512K for the seller or buyer is that pesky serial number. It's a dead give-away. Or the model number. And of course anybody who actually wants to buy a 68000 Mac to use it, is going to go after a Plus or an SE.
FInally, I question Quadraman's sample. I know for a fact the 128K is not rare at all having built up a database of those offered on eBay for over a year. I agree with JDW that the word is used by sellers on eBay to sensationalize their listing and get novice buyers to forget themselves in the heat of the bidding, buyers who clearly don't do a lick of research. But, I see 512Kes all the time on eBay. In fact many 512Ks are Kes, as many have had the 800K drive upgrade and 128K ROM upgrade. Or they're just listed as 512Ks without even realizing it's actually a 512Ke, and often have to ferret that out by asking the seller questions. I saw one listing where the 512Ke had been "restored" to a 512K, but it had a late '86 serial number! Did the seller just not realize, or was he trying to capitalize on the greater perceived value of a 512K but putting a spare 400K drive into it? I seriously question if he replaced the logicboard or the ROMs, but I could never get that question answered because it was conveniently boxed up already.
Another thing to consider is that the 512Ke is not actually marked as "enhanced" or "e" on its nameplate. The only surefire ways to know if it's enhanced (originally or not) are to look at the serial number (anything made in April 1986 or later is an "e") or to see if an 800K disk will work in its drive. Also, a platinum machine that looks like a Plus but doesn't have a name next to it is a 512Ke--this is what the machine looked like during its final days in 1987 when the entire line went to platinum. The 512Ke was discontinued in September 1987, for the record.
The 512Ke upgrade was well-received once every software publisher started going to 800K disks. Not everyone could afford a full Plus upgrade, so this at least gave them the ability to run some current software on a two-drive system.
I agree with the posters who believe the 512K goes for less since it's not the original. It's not the most common machine out there, either in regular or "e" form, as many were upgraded to Pluses or simply disposed of, but it's certainly not in the same league as, say, the Mac TV or Flower Power iMac. I bought my 512Ke on eBay for $25 in 2001--a time when 128Ks were often selling for three figures.
Also, the reason you see more Pluses, Classics, and SEs is because schools had these machines in large quantities. It's also why you see lots of LCs but not too many Mac IIs or Quadras. The schools didn't really buy the original Macs (128K/512K) because they were still into Apple IIs at the time, many were almost exclusively Apple II until the Classic and LC came out. The lack of software for the first Macs compared to the large libraries (i.e. MECC) for the Apple II is the main reason why they were avoided. The price difference really wasn't that significant when you factor in external floppy drives and monitors for the Apple IIs; adding mice and super serial cards/network cards only set schools back further.
The 512Ke upgrade was well-received once every software publisher started going to 800K disks. Not everyone could afford a full Plus upgrade, so this at least gave them the ability to run some current software on a two-drive system.
I agree with the posters who believe the 512K goes for less since it's not the original. It's not the most common machine out there, either in regular or "e" form, as many were upgraded to Pluses or simply disposed of, but it's certainly not in the same league as, say, the Mac TV or Flower Power iMac. I bought my 512Ke on eBay for $25 in 2001--a time when 128Ks were often selling for three figures.
Also, the reason you see more Pluses, Classics, and SEs is because schools had these machines in large quantities. It's also why you see lots of LCs but not too many Mac IIs or Quadras. The schools didn't really buy the original Macs (128K/512K) because they were still into Apple IIs at the time, many were almost exclusively Apple II until the Classic and LC came out. The lack of software for the first Macs compared to the large libraries (i.e. MECC) for the Apple II is the main reason why they were avoided. The price difference really wasn't that significant when you factor in external floppy drives and monitors for the Apple IIs; adding mice and super serial cards/network cards only set schools back further.
Where do you get that 512Ke discontinued date?
It all depends on which schools you're talking about. Jobs made education sales a priority, especially after the first 6 months when the 128Ks were piling up in the warehouse. It was a way to alleviate inventory and target education which Apple had long since recognized the value of. When I was in college there were all kinds of incentives and discounts to buy 128Ks, and 512Ks, not to mention the ones sold at considerable discount to the school. In fact there was not an Apple II to be found anywhere on my campus. Just Macs and PCs. Whle I couldn't afford a 128K new, the considerable discount offered the guy I did buy it used from, allowed me to afford it when he upgraded to his Plus, also through such programs.
It all depends on which schools you're talking about. Jobs made education sales a priority, especially after the first 6 months when the 128Ks were piling up in the warehouse. It was a way to alleviate inventory and target education which Apple had long since recognized the value of. When I was in college there were all kinds of incentives and discounts to buy 128Ks, and 512Ks, not to mention the ones sold at considerable discount to the school. In fact there was not an Apple II to be found anywhere on my campus. Just Macs and PCs. Whle I couldn't afford a 128K new, the considerable discount offered the guy I did buy it used from, allowed me to afford it when he upgraded to his Plus, also through such programs.
Hey, I saw something about the 512ke today that said the model number on those is M0001E, so there is a way to distinguish them from M0001W 512k machines.
Of course there is. We've all said as much in recent posts. The Macintosh 512/800 has the model number M0001D, and the ED has the model number M0001ED Every Mac has a model number clearly specified on it's agency label or elsewhere, as well as part of its serial number – note the 512Ke's serial number ends in "M0001E". Early European models are appended with "P" denoting they are 240V models, such as M0001WP. However, since the case back is often switched or replaced, the serial number is the best way to determine how a particular Mac began life.512ke ...model number on those is M0001E, so there is a way to distinguish them from M0001W 512k machines.
Scott Baret said there are no distinguishing markings other than the build date encoded in the serial number.
That's not exactly what Scott wrote:
Anyway, for those who want to know more, try searching the forum for "512Ke" and you'll find a plethora of details discussing the history of this odd critter.
He said the only surefire way, and I agree with him on that point as the case backs are often switched out and internals changed. Also, the only difference between a 512K that was upgraded to a 512Ke, is the missing "d, e, or ed" from the Agency Label, but that doesn't make it any less a 512Ke, or variant.The only surefire ways to know if it's enhanced (originally or not) are to look at the serial number (anything made in April 1986 or later is an "e") or to see if an 800K disk will work in its drive.
Anyway, for those who want to know more, try searching the forum for "512Ke" and you'll find a plethora of details discussing the history of this odd critter.
Is it not possible to confirm what the machine is what based on the boot dialog?
If you want to confirm if a given compact Mac is an original 128k or 512k with 64k ROMs versus a 512ke (or ROM-upgraded 128k/512k), assuming it still boots, just flip the power switch and insert a working boot floppy. If it is an original Mac 128k or 512k with the 64k ROMs, the "Welcome to Macintosh" box will have a thick black shadow, offset to the right and bottom. But if the ROM is the newer 128k version (512ke / Plus / Upgraded), then the "Welcome to Macintosh" box will have a thin outline / border all around and then a slightly thicker outline within that (i.e., no "shadow"). This will remain true regardless of the System / Finder version you are booting from.
You can see this here:
Welcome to Macintosh boot box, new 128k ROMs - PHOTO
Welcome to Macintosh boot box, new 128k ROMs - VIDEO
When Googling this subject, it is simply amazing how little information comes up on this subject.
If you want to confirm if a given compact Mac is an original 128k or 512k with 64k ROMs versus a 512ke (or ROM-upgraded 128k/512k), assuming it still boots, just flip the power switch and insert a working boot floppy. If it is an original Mac 128k or 512k with the 64k ROMs, the "Welcome to Macintosh" box will have a thick black shadow, offset to the right and bottom. But if the ROM is the newer 128k version (512ke / Plus / Upgraded), then the "Welcome to Macintosh" box will have a thin outline / border all around and then a slightly thicker outline within that (i.e., no "shadow"). This will remain true regardless of the System / Finder version you are booting from.
You can see this here:
Welcome to Macintosh boot box, new 128k ROMs - PHOTO
Welcome to Macintosh boot box, new 128k ROMs - VIDEO
When Googling this subject, it is simply amazing how little information comes up on this subject.
I forgot another telltale sign--the sound of the floppy drive. Listen to the drives in the two videos and you'll hear a HUGE difference between the 400K and 800K drive.
JDW, that's if you have a boot floppy present. Just looking at the machine, assuming it doesn't power up, or don't have access to power. If it does power up and you don't have a 400K formatted floppy disk (to boot under both 400K & 800K drives), like many eBay sellers or garage sales, there is an even easier test. Press the interrupt button (or use a paperclip if it does not have one) and 64K ROMs will give you a Sad Mac. 128K ROMs will give you a C prompt in a debug console.
Scott, you don't even need to stick a disk into the floppy drive to see the difference between a 400K & 800K drive. The 400K drive will be eerily aglow with red LEDs. This is of course assuming it powers up to being with.
Ultimately the check list should be as simple as possible:
1) check the serial number – it will end with one of the model numbers listed on the agency label below: this is ultimately how the compact began life regardless of anything else you may find.
2) check the agency label – M0001(P), M0001(P), M0001W(P), M0001E, M0001D, M0001ED, M0001A(P) – This should match the serial number, otherwise the rear bucket has been replaced.
3) check the rear label – Macintosh, Macintosh 128K, Macintosh 512K, Macintosh Plus – This should correspond to the model number, or else it has been upgraded, and/or the rear bucket replaced.
If the compact powers up
4) Check for RED LEDs in the drive slot, this will confirm an 800K upgrade if a 128K or 512K, or a downgrade in the case of a 512Ke or Plus
5) Press the interrupt key, this will confirm the presence of 64K ROMs or 128K ROMs.
6) With a 400K startup disk, open About Finder and the resulting dialogue box will confirm the amount of RAM available.
That's pretty much it. Now you know everything about your Mac you can without opening it up, or possessing special software.
Scott, you don't even need to stick a disk into the floppy drive to see the difference between a 400K & 800K drive. The 400K drive will be eerily aglow with red LEDs. This is of course assuming it powers up to being with.
Ultimately the check list should be as simple as possible:
1) check the serial number – it will end with one of the model numbers listed on the agency label below: this is ultimately how the compact began life regardless of anything else you may find.
2) check the agency label – M0001(P), M0001(P), M0001W(P), M0001E, M0001D, M0001ED, M0001A(P) – This should match the serial number, otherwise the rear bucket has been replaced.
3) check the rear label – Macintosh, Macintosh 128K, Macintosh 512K, Macintosh Plus – This should correspond to the model number, or else it has been upgraded, and/or the rear bucket replaced.
If the compact powers up
4) Check for RED LEDs in the drive slot, this will confirm an 800K upgrade if a 128K or 512K, or a downgrade in the case of a 512Ke or Plus
5) Press the interrupt key, this will confirm the presence of 64K ROMs or 128K ROMs.
6) With a 400K startup disk, open About Finder and the resulting dialogue box will confirm the amount of RAM available.
That's pretty much it. Now you know everything about your Mac you can without opening it up, or possessing special software.
Should a 'Macintosh' show a green light in the drive bay?
Nope. No green lights inside a stock "Macintosh" or an OEM upgrade. If you have one, there's something undeniably foreign inside there. Can't imagine why there would be one inside a drive bay in any event. The red LEDs served a specific function in the 400K drives. Any other lights inside a compact would merely be unnecessary status lights.
When I spotted this Mac 512ke auction, I couldn't help but remember this thread. The seller is basically selling a Mac Plus but he is pitching it heavily as a 512ke because he feels such will allow him to use that fish-bait word, "rare." This is a Macintosh Plus folks, not a 512ke. I couldn't care less if it has a badly yellowed Mac 512ke case. The logic board inside is from a Mac Plus. And yet, how many instances of "512ke" do you find in that auction listing versus "Plus"? The only thing good about this auction thus far is the price -- $25 plus shipping is about all this thing is worth, if that.
Folks, you really have to be careful on EBAY, especially when reading a listing that centers on that magical word "rare."
Folks, you really have to be careful on EBAY, especially when reading a listing that centers on that magical word "rare."
JDW, that auction is interesting...
It's not TOO far from me (~160 mi,) so I think I'll bid on it. (And so we don't get into a bidding war, I bid an amount that will make price+shipping=$50. That's my max. If you want to bid more, go ahead, I won't drive the price up. Although hopefully I can safe on shipping and have him "meet me halfway" somewhere.)
Not so much for the 512Ke/Plus system, as for the mouse. Look carefully, that's a //c mouse. I'd love to have a //c mouse for my //c.
It's not TOO far from me (~160 mi,) so I think I'll bid on it. (And so we don't get into a bidding war, I bid an amount that will make price+shipping=$50. That's my max. If you want to bid more, go ahead, I won't drive the price up. Although hopefully I can safe on shipping and have him "meet me halfway" somewhere.)
Not so much for the 512Ke/Plus system, as for the mouse. Look carefully, that's a //c mouse. I'd love to have a //c mouse for my //c.
I have no intention whatsoever to bid on it, nor did I post that to encourage anyone here to bid on it. I was merely using it as an example when talking about the overuse of the word "rare" on EBAY and to drive home the point that what makes the machine what it is, is the logic board inside.
A subject of some humorous debate on Cubeowner.com. What is a Cube? Original? Certainly. Hot-rodded? Those who have a "daily driver" cube have all hopped up the CPU and GPU, installed big HDs and beaucoup RAM. Of course those are still Cubes. What if the hopping up involves a micro-PC motherboard and Hackintosh-ing? Suppose a Mini's guts now power the beast? Is it still a Cube? Most would say so. In this case, it's the case that defines a Cube. So then what about the Cubes with modified cases? Some have PLX commercial cases and there are some beautiful fully custom cases which hold a Cube chassis. So is it the chassis that makes a Cube? Cubeowners aren't awfully orthodox about their babies.
If it's the serial number on the box that determines type, then this is still a 512Ke, though it has been upgraded to a Plus. Rare? Well, hardly, although this seller seems to be finding a sucker or two. ;D
If it's the serial number on the box that determines type, then this is still a 512Ke, though it has been upgraded to a Plus. Rare? Well, hardly, although this seller seems to be finding a sucker or two. ;D
Well, it went over my budget. I may want a //c mouse, but not *THAT* badly.
If $35 exceeds one's budget for a vintage Mac, EBAY is certainly not the place to be shopping! I paid $25 plus shipping in the past simply for 128k ROMs pulled from a Mac Plus logic board. (If I had shipped the entire board over to me in Japan, I would have had to pay a lot more in shipping, which is why I took the chips only.) The point is though that EBAY is not really the best place to look for discounts. But due to the photos and overall presentation of the item being sold, I can see why it lures more people than Craigslist.
I've gotten deals before.
Hold on a tick, how exactly did they modify the port area? It looks custom to the Plus layout and doesn't look like the usual kludged together kind of mod. I don't think I have seen a 128K/512K/e bucket modified for a Plus board before.
That's a Plus rear bucket that's had the 512Ke labels stuck on it, no?
No. The Plus' Agency label is centered and the port indent area is double in height. Apple did that on the Plus to allow third party connectors which the original design forced Apple cables only.