Thread
The Current 128K Phenomenon
Although often discussed, I have been tracking 128K units sold on eBay for over 2 years now and lately I am noticing a disturbing rise in prices and am at a loss to explain it.
First, aren't we in a global economic recession? Second, it's not like the 128K is particularly rare, as the links I will post below will attest (over 10 units in only two months. And I assure you this is normal for 128Ks, there is NOTHING rare about them.
Now to quash some aspects of this discussion before they get started ... PLEASE DON'T discuss specific sellers or the prices they charge (i.e starting price or BIN). That's NOT what this is about. I want to have a serious discussion about the motivations behind the inflated prices buyers pay for these Macs on eBay from all sellers, not one in particular. If you take it to that negative seller-bashing place, the discussion will be shut down, and nothing will get discussed. So if that's what you want to do, move on please.
While we are used to complete Mac systems that ship in original boxes, in original condition, with original accessories, that sell in the $1,000+ range, I'm seeing an alarming rise in selling prices of dead 128Ks and upgraded to 512Ks, without much else of value in the auctions.
What's behind this?
My personal theory is that the prices are being driven up by resellers who are buying up upgraded and dead 128Ks in order to fix and/or restore them. Imagine, you buy a 512K upgraded 128K for $365, replace the logicboard with a 128K one (two on eBay recently for $79 ea.), and then turn around and sell it for almost double. Whether a re-seller wins the auction or not, it forces the average collector to step up to the league of the professional seller who intends to reap the highest profits possible, and also reducing the number of fixer-uppers available for the do-it-yourself experience which is so intrinsic to many of us who are more invested in our Macs than just the bottom line.
$565
$430 This one was not even an original 128K but the second generation model!
$365 This one has been upgraded to 512K!
$850
$158 This one doesn't even work!
$1200
$520
$1294
$1025
$731
First, aren't we in a global economic recession? Second, it's not like the 128K is particularly rare, as the links I will post below will attest (over 10 units in only two months. And I assure you this is normal for 128Ks, there is NOTHING rare about them.
Now to quash some aspects of this discussion before they get started ... PLEASE DON'T discuss specific sellers or the prices they charge (i.e starting price or BIN). That's NOT what this is about. I want to have a serious discussion about the motivations behind the inflated prices buyers pay for these Macs on eBay from all sellers, not one in particular. If you take it to that negative seller-bashing place, the discussion will be shut down, and nothing will get discussed. So if that's what you want to do, move on please.
While we are used to complete Mac systems that ship in original boxes, in original condition, with original accessories, that sell in the $1,000+ range, I'm seeing an alarming rise in selling prices of dead 128Ks and upgraded to 512Ks, without much else of value in the auctions.
What's behind this?
My personal theory is that the prices are being driven up by resellers who are buying up upgraded and dead 128Ks in order to fix and/or restore them. Imagine, you buy a 512K upgraded 128K for $365, replace the logicboard with a 128K one (two on eBay recently for $79 ea.), and then turn around and sell it for almost double. Whether a re-seller wins the auction or not, it forces the average collector to step up to the league of the professional seller who intends to reap the highest profits possible, and also reducing the number of fixer-uppers available for the do-it-yourself experience which is so intrinsic to many of us who are more invested in our Macs than just the bottom line.
$565
$430 This one was not even an original 128K but the second generation model!
$365 This one has been upgraded to 512K!
$850
$158 This one doesn't even work!
$1200
$520
$1294
$1025
$731
Dog Cow hit the nail on the head. It is still possible (though less common) to get these machines for nothing or next to nothing. Those who want to pay off debt or get some spending cash (employed or not) are selling them at high prices. The target market? Teenage collectors who are still running off mom and dad's money.
We have some very knowledgeable teenage members on this forum. However, I'm sure we all know that many of the younger collectors who don't know just how common 128Ks are will ask their parents to get them one of the "rare originals". Even some older folks are the same way (although they usually pay for them out of their own pocket). Anyone who was around to witness these Macs in their heyday will know just how common the 128K was. It was, after all, the only Mac model on the market for the better part of 1984, and continued to sell reasonably well into 1985 due to its lower price point than the original Mac. Some were upgraded to Pluses, but many more remained original or were simply upgraded to 512Ks.
There seemed to be a 128K "shortage" when eBay was young. I think a lot of people were holding on to their 128Ks hoping they would gain value. Now that a lot of people are looking for machines to sell, the 128Ks that had been in closets and on display are finding their way to the online auction sites. High prices used to be reserved for pristine examples with all original materials but are now the norm due to both people wanting more money and some incorrect perceptions of older Macs.
All Macs have indeed gone up in price on eBay. I remember buying a 512K in 2001 on eBay and feeling as though I had paid a small fortune, as it had gone for $25 (at the time it was uncommon to see anything over $100 and most Macs were about $10-15 before shipping). I think with the age of these machines and the lack of availability in school surplus many are inflating the prices. Unfortunately, the number of these computers still around isn't really changing. The Macs that were going to be disposed of most likely already were years ago when schools and companies downsized.
Another thing--I'm sick of seeing the words "rare" and "vintage" in eBay auctions. Aside from a few models like the elusive Macintosh ED, there are very few "rare" Macs. Pluses, SEs, Classics, 512Ks, and 128Ks (!) are all quite common. As some of you know, I had been a volunteer at the Goodwill warehouse (and plan on doing it again this summer) where many donated older Macs were stored. There were piles of compacts of all models from 128K to Classic II, including SE/30s and Color Classics. There were also tons of LCs. Not one of those models is uncommon. Also, we all know these machines are old. Someone looking for a 128K probably already knows that it is from 1984-1985, and if they don't know the exact year, they certainly have a good idea that it wasn't made in, say, 2002. The seven characters wasted on "vintage", four characters expended on "rare", and the space in between them could be used to describe something else, such as "working 400K", alerting the potential buyer that they won't have to repair a floppy drive upon arrival. (For novices, this could be a major selling point).
The best way to get old Macs at fair prices (or fair trades) is on sites such as this one or LEM Swap, where the actual value of the machine is recognized. eBay works fine for some things, but Mac 128Ks going for $500 and broken Mac Classic analog boards going for $100 are not among them.
We have some very knowledgeable teenage members on this forum. However, I'm sure we all know that many of the younger collectors who don't know just how common 128Ks are will ask their parents to get them one of the "rare originals". Even some older folks are the same way (although they usually pay for them out of their own pocket). Anyone who was around to witness these Macs in their heyday will know just how common the 128K was. It was, after all, the only Mac model on the market for the better part of 1984, and continued to sell reasonably well into 1985 due to its lower price point than the original Mac. Some were upgraded to Pluses, but many more remained original or were simply upgraded to 512Ks.
There seemed to be a 128K "shortage" when eBay was young. I think a lot of people were holding on to their 128Ks hoping they would gain value. Now that a lot of people are looking for machines to sell, the 128Ks that had been in closets and on display are finding their way to the online auction sites. High prices used to be reserved for pristine examples with all original materials but are now the norm due to both people wanting more money and some incorrect perceptions of older Macs.
All Macs have indeed gone up in price on eBay. I remember buying a 512K in 2001 on eBay and feeling as though I had paid a small fortune, as it had gone for $25 (at the time it was uncommon to see anything over $100 and most Macs were about $10-15 before shipping). I think with the age of these machines and the lack of availability in school surplus many are inflating the prices. Unfortunately, the number of these computers still around isn't really changing. The Macs that were going to be disposed of most likely already were years ago when schools and companies downsized.
Another thing--I'm sick of seeing the words "rare" and "vintage" in eBay auctions. Aside from a few models like the elusive Macintosh ED, there are very few "rare" Macs. Pluses, SEs, Classics, 512Ks, and 128Ks (!) are all quite common. As some of you know, I had been a volunteer at the Goodwill warehouse (and plan on doing it again this summer) where many donated older Macs were stored. There were piles of compacts of all models from 128K to Classic II, including SE/30s and Color Classics. There were also tons of LCs. Not one of those models is uncommon. Also, we all know these machines are old. Someone looking for a 128K probably already knows that it is from 1984-1985, and if they don't know the exact year, they certainly have a good idea that it wasn't made in, say, 2002. The seven characters wasted on "vintage", four characters expended on "rare", and the space in between them could be used to describe something else, such as "working 400K", alerting the potential buyer that they won't have to repair a floppy drive upon arrival. (For novices, this could be a major selling point).
The best way to get old Macs at fair prices (or fair trades) is on sites such as this one or LEM Swap, where the actual value of the machine is recognized. eBay works fine for some things, but Mac 128Ks going for $500 and broken Mac Classic analog boards going for $100 are not among them.
Yeah, I know, right? I think it's funny. It's like,
"what eBay category are we in?"
"Oh, we're in the Vintage Apple category"
"I think I'll throw it in the title just to be on the safe side"
Hardly a week goes by where I don't see some auction that's like "this is super-rare unobtainium" and it's something that I have 2-3 copies of that were given to me by friends/family....
My current amusing trend that I'm seeing are the old box-type mice, you know, the ones for the Mac 128k, Plus, and Apple IIe, going for about $15-$20. Because about 3 weeks ago, I bought a lot of 2 original beige Mac mice, the super-old ones which have the square plug and Apple-logo thumbscrews, for $3. Just three dollars. Now about 2 weeks later, I'm seeing all of these mice (and even the newer, yet boxy ADB mice) going for about 5 times that amount.
Was I just lucky?
(As an aside, I just won an auction for the Apple IIc mouse, so now I should have every old-type Apple mouse (because I've also got some of the newer platinum colored mice for the newer 512k and Plus models) except the Lisa mouse, and maybe the black Mac TV mouse if you were to count that.)
Really? I totally get someone pricing the thing for as much as they get, but seriously, in the current economic client, even living off mom and dad's money, where are these teenagers getting $500+ dollars to blow on a 128K Macintosh? Shouldn't some of these initially high priced items go unsold (and some do) as most cannot afford them? And not all of them start at $500, some start reasonably priced and cascade to these enormous amounts in the wee seconds of the auction. And if that's the case, where are these teenagers in the community? Aside from Paralel's admission, I'm not necessarily seeing these parentally-wealthy teenagers here (what's the most you've paid for a vintage compact anyway Paralel ... if you don't mind me prying – I've certainly paid some embarrassing amounts considering what these are). I mean how did these teenagers get involved with vintage Macs in the first place if not some online forum? I suppose they could just go out blindly on their own, with no contact with anyone else in the community, but seriously who does that if they want to learn more about something? Wow. Perhaps I am getting old, because this explanation just simply does not sound reasonable ...
Not everyone is on hard times. And Scott Baret is probably over-generalizing when he says that it's all teenagers buying this stuff.
A Frenchman spent $1,000 about a month ago for the ProDOS 1.0 Golden Master source code. So it's not even all Americans buying this stuff.
It's only recently that I've actually started buying things.
A Frenchman spent $1,000 about a month ago for the ProDOS 1.0 Golden Master source code. So it's not even all Americans buying this stuff.
I got started in 1998 when my grandfather gave me an SE/30 for Christmas. Since then, I've inherited most of his Apple collection, and the Apple collections of other friends and family members. That's how I got started, anyway.
It's only recently that I've actually started buying things.
Very true. This is also the case in much better economic times. Yet the prices are really up there currently during the worst of them. They're having problems in France as well. No one has been immune to the collapse of the US stock Market. Look at the current situation in Greece – France will be helping to bail them out as a member of the EU.
As I said, I completely understand someone trying to get some extra money by selling their Mac collection. Even in good times, profiteers will price them extremely high. But, that wasn't really what I was getting at. Someone is paying these ridiculous amounts. Just because someone wants to sell it for these prices, doesn't mean anybody's gonna take them up on it. So truly, I am stunned that considering the state of the global economy, there are more people willing to pay a premium now, more than when the economy was much healthier.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. Ordinarily, it shouldn't matter what other people are spending on their vintage stuff. It's not my money.
The problem comes when sellers realize that they can get people to pay more money for their retro wares, and I now I want to buy something and suddenly the prices are too high for my budget.
That's what I was talking about with the mouse story. People were selling these mice for peanuts about 3-4 weeks ago. People like me bought them. And now these sellers want to make even more money. So their prices have risen accordingly.
The problem comes when sellers realize that they can get people to pay more money for their retro wares, and I now I want to buy something and suddenly the prices are too high for my budget.
That's what I was talking about with the mouse story. People were selling these mice for peanuts about 3-4 weeks ago. People like me bought them. And now these sellers want to make even more money. So their prices have risen accordingly.
Just so no one gets the wrong impression, I'm no teenager, I'm a 3rd year medical student in my mid-20's. I'm about as poor as they come, I wish I was a teenager with parents who handed out money
Although I felt I did fit the description in the post preceding my own:
Although I wouldn't say I have all that much time on my hands, it is a fun hobby.
The most I've paid for a Mac was ~$70 (incl. shipping) for my Classic II (10MB RAM/500MB HD) w/ ADB keyboard and mouse.
I'd like to get an SE/30 and upgrade the hell out of it, but I don't have the money for that. xx(
As of the moment I'm trying to get a 933 Mhz QS-2002 w/ KB & mouse for ~$100 (incl. shipping)
The most I ever paid for a Mac was $1800...for a new iMac G4 in 2003. For a used Mac, I think the most I ever paid was $50 for a mint in-box Plus (if you're counting only 68Ks) or $100 for an iMac G3 (for newer items).
The reason I had said it was likely teenagers who were the recipients of these older Macs is because their parents may not know the value of the old Macs, especially if said parents are not into technology themselves. An old Mac on eBay often costs about as much as, say, a PlayStation or a few outfits from Abercrombie & Fitch, and as such, the parents are willing to spend that sort of money.
If you're wondering where folks are becoming interested in older Macs, it's probably from a non-web resource. School technology clubs may show off an old Mac from the storage closet. There may be a Mac at a rummage sale at a church that looks interesting. A friend may have an older Mac or two (I got one of my friends hooked on Shufflepuck in middle school and got my cousin into Number Munchers and Oregon Trail in fifth grade).
Also, someone getting into vintage Macs may not join these forums immediately and wait until something happens with their Mac. System 6 is pretty easy to figure out and the hardware is extremely easy to set up. If it's working fine and doesn't need new caps, there are likely to be few, if any, problems. You won't find fair price indexes for 68Ks on Low End Mac or any of the other sites that deal with older Macs.
Of course, it's not just teens. It just seems to be that they, as a group, are the ones who get these over-priced eBay Macs more than anyone, especially since they can get financial support from their parents (either in whole or part of the price). Also, when was the last time you saw a parent buying a Mac for their teen who isn't old enough to use eBay on their own yet on these forums looking for an older Mac?
Folks who have passed that age of emancipation also are sometimes unsure of the Mac prices and will sometimes spend $500 on a 128K to have an "original Mac". There's also that small group of people who will spend whatever it takes to get a certain item. The folks who have the money to spend will do it, just as some people spent five figures on those Bentley laptops that look like clamshell iBooks. The ones who need the money will sell their old Macs at inflated prices to those who have the money to spend or don't know about the prices of the older Macs.
The reason I had said it was likely teenagers who were the recipients of these older Macs is because their parents may not know the value of the old Macs, especially if said parents are not into technology themselves. An old Mac on eBay often costs about as much as, say, a PlayStation or a few outfits from Abercrombie & Fitch, and as such, the parents are willing to spend that sort of money.
If you're wondering where folks are becoming interested in older Macs, it's probably from a non-web resource. School technology clubs may show off an old Mac from the storage closet. There may be a Mac at a rummage sale at a church that looks interesting. A friend may have an older Mac or two (I got one of my friends hooked on Shufflepuck in middle school and got my cousin into Number Munchers and Oregon Trail in fifth grade).
Also, someone getting into vintage Macs may not join these forums immediately and wait until something happens with their Mac. System 6 is pretty easy to figure out and the hardware is extremely easy to set up. If it's working fine and doesn't need new caps, there are likely to be few, if any, problems. You won't find fair price indexes for 68Ks on Low End Mac or any of the other sites that deal with older Macs.
Of course, it's not just teens. It just seems to be that they, as a group, are the ones who get these over-priced eBay Macs more than anyone, especially since they can get financial support from their parents (either in whole or part of the price). Also, when was the last time you saw a parent buying a Mac for their teen who isn't old enough to use eBay on their own yet on these forums looking for an older Mac?
Folks who have passed that age of emancipation also are sometimes unsure of the Mac prices and will sometimes spend $500 on a 128K to have an "original Mac". There's also that small group of people who will spend whatever it takes to get a certain item. The folks who have the money to spend will do it, just as some people spent five figures on those Bentley laptops that look like clamshell iBooks. The ones who need the money will sell their old Macs at inflated prices to those who have the money to spend or don't know about the prices of the older Macs.
Kids don't spend $500 for a retro mac, people with money do (people with jobs, trust funds, other valuables they can sell, etc).
I bet most people here who have collected for many years have $5K+ of ebay value in their collection. So if prices of the stuff they want keeps going up so does the old boring things they own they can sell or trade to get what they want. Even people just starting out in the hobby can still find things in various places to get going cheaply.
While gold has some value in electronics, it is still just a lump of metal. A Picasso might be valued at $200M but it is just a painting, if other art collectors decide he is no longer popular the value of the painting will drop like a rock. Collectables are only as valuable as the next guy willing to buy it. You will see some model macs rise in "value" on ebay in the coming months while others drop, it happens all the time. Some stuff I snagged for nothing one month people fight over the next.
I bet most people here who have collected for many years have $5K+ of ebay value in their collection. So if prices of the stuff they want keeps going up so does the old boring things they own they can sell or trade to get what they want. Even people just starting out in the hobby can still find things in various places to get going cheaply.
While gold has some value in electronics, it is still just a lump of metal. A Picasso might be valued at $200M but it is just a painting, if other art collectors decide he is no longer popular the value of the painting will drop like a rock. Collectables are only as valuable as the next guy willing to buy it. You will see some model macs rise in "value" on ebay in the coming months while others drop, it happens all the time. Some stuff I snagged for nothing one month people fight over the next.
Exactly. For example, you can't give 6100s and early PCI Macs away at the moment.
By creating and maintaining the content on this site - which almost always lists high on any google searches for information on certain models, methods and accessories - we have directly contributed to the environment where these Macs are seen as desirable collectables.
By creating and maintaining the content on this site - which almost always lists high on any google searches for information on certain models, methods and accessories - we have directly contributed to the environment where these Macs are seen as desirable collectables.
I believe that is the point I have been making from the start. I am NOT blaming the sellers. Dog Cow is not wrong that some auctions start pre-maturely inflated as initiated by the seller. However, the vast majority of these auctions are pushed ever higher by the buyers who have some kind of bottomless riches lining their pockets unlike most folks in the world these days.
Eh. Not so sure about that. If anything this site routinely points out how little value the 128K holds. Unless you are suggesting these kinds of threads about how much they are going for are self-perpetuating. If anything these articles should warn people that they are overpaying, and could easily correct the situation if they refused to pay such inflated fees. The way people go on about SE/30s around here should have caused those prices to skyrocket. But as long as I have been collecting, the 128K has routinely blown the SE/30's prices out of the water (currently SE/30s are going for around $100 US). So I'm not entirely sure how our forum contributes to the inflated prices people are willing to spend on some of these specific models.
Yes, yes. But why now? Why at a time when the world's economy is depressed and people of all walks are spending more conservatively? Why not two years ago when the economy was thriving at the top of the bubble?
There are threads started here about SE/30 upgrades that might have moved people to dump quite a bit of money into their SE/30's. The thing is with forums you only find them (as a non member) when you are looking to get something or upgrade it and start to Google. To be honest most people take what they read on the net with a grain of salt anyway. A casual collector will not dump the same cash as some die hard Apple collector will if they bump into a forum thread on SE/30 greyscale mods. Also there are many more collectors of old macs (and computer in general) they there have been or ever will be members on this forum, not that many people who even read threads here bother to join, and many Apple collectors don't even bother to find this place.
Bunsen is right about this. "Money", as the term is generally used in 1st world societies, is a fiat (soft) currency with no intrinsic value which is not backed by anything other than the faith people place in the government printing the money. Gold is a "hard" currency and a store of wealth, but no, it is not "money".
Gold coins created by the government complicate the matter because they have a fiat equivalent face value but they also have a "hard" value in terms of the quantity of gold from which they were made. As such, gold coins issued by a government actually have two separate values which are not linked to one another. In this case, gold, in the form of a coin issued by the government, is indeed "money". However, this is the only exception where gold is "money" in a society that issues fiat currency, as gold not issued by a government as an object with a fiat equivalent face value is not "money".
maybe people need a hobby and see a 500$ investment down memory "better times" lane a better time killer than the next smart phone?
crap some people paid thousands of dollars, 25 years later 200 for a junky one just to play with is not so bad ( I mean keep in mind I gave 2 bucks for my last 2 macs and tossed in an extra dollar so everyone could buy a coke from the vending machine so I don't justify it)
I suspect it to be due to new users or "switchers" who have gotten the Apple bug like a new religion, who want a partner for their new MacBook/ iMac/ iWhatever, and who see one of the early Compacts as fitting that special need. So they've discovered that they have a Jobs-shaped void that only a 128k Mac can fill ... on that shelf in the corner.
It surely CAN'T be people who have "kept the faith" with Apple throughout, because they would surely know that those things just 'ain't worth the money.
It surely CAN'T be people who have "kept the faith" with Apple throughout, because they would surely know that those things just 'ain't worth the money.
And then there's something like this: $470 for a working 128K in the original box with the original manuals and disks.
It's hard to say how high the highest bidder would have gone, but clearly every auction is a crap shoot between who is bidding at any given time, those who want something immediately, and what they have to spend.
I have NEVER seen a steal like this on eBay. Something like this would normally sell for over $1,200.
It's hard to say how high the highest bidder would have gone, but clearly every auction is a crap shoot between who is bidding at any given time, those who want something immediately, and what they have to spend.
I have NEVER seen a steal like this on eBay. Something like this would normally sell for over $1,200.
An interesting theory. Obviously true at some point, but nevertheless, I have never seen a working, complete, boxed 128K with such an early serial number sell for so little. There are no more complete boxed systems currently for sale on eBay so it's hard to test your theory at the moment. Will definitely be watching to see what the other 128K systems continue to sell for. If unboxed systems continue to sell in the $300-400 range as they have been, that shows more of a price-of-opportunity. I have seen items sell for much less than I was prepared to pay simply because I could not get access to eBay when the auction ended, or they did not turn up in my searches, as improperly listed items often do.
Good for you! Yeah, that is a sweet setup man. You got a complete kit. Just out of curiosity, how much higher would you have bid? I almost bid, but decided I would never bid enough. Live and learn, but glad to know it went to a member who wants it, rather than an eBay shark who would have done little more than clean it up and list it as a BIN for $1,000.
This is an EBAY seller we're talking about here. In the subconscious mind of the seller, solidpro already got that "refund": $1,000 (seller's desired selling price) - $470 (actually selling price) = $530 fried board discount
It is true that the auction in question says "Good Working Condition." In fact it says that more than once in the listing. But when we buyers obtain what we think is a good deal, we often tell ourselves, "well it's such a good deal, and since I have parts to repair it anyway, no use making a stink about it." The seller then gets off the hook and goes back to subtle sales deception. This is how EBAY works. I don't like it. But it's been my experience (as a buyer and EBAY window-shopper) for the last several years. Mac128 earlier commented about this being "a steal." And on some level, yes, the word "steal" is appropriate here. There's always a catch.
If there is a major deviation from the description of the product I always ask for a partial refund, with the amount asked relative to the amount of deviation from the original listing. I have about a 50% success rate. The other 50% are resolved through a PayPal dispute and I win maybe 50% of those, so overall I am about 75% successful with regard to partial refunds for deceptive listings.
If the seller and I come to a mutual agreement regarding the amount of the refund I always leave positive feedback discussing satisfaction with regard to handling of the issue. If I have to take it to a dispute I always leave negative feedback to let everyone else know the seller is a fraud.
I can't imagine just accepting being gyped by some con artist.
If the seller and I come to a mutual agreement regarding the amount of the refund I always leave positive feedback discussing satisfaction with regard to handling of the issue. If I have to take it to a dispute I always leave negative feedback to let everyone else know the seller is a fraud.
I can't imagine just accepting being gyped by some con artist.
Considering that "gyped" is EBAY's middle name, it's hard to avoid it. I've made some purchases outside EBAY before, but there are just so many vintage Mac items on EBAY that I sadly keep my eyes glued to it. I hardly every buy anything these days on EBAY, especially since USPS killed off the only economical way to ship complete systems to me outside the USA -- Ocean. But I have been ripped off before and nothing I did helped get me a discount, more less my money back. Thankfully my worst experience on EBAY was with a low cost item, but I had to pay more in shipping (to Japan via AIR) than the item was worth. Here's the story...
A couple years ago I bought an Apple mouse on EBAY. I wanted the same transparent/black kind for use with my G4 Cube. My previous mouse had a cable that frayed just as the cable exits the back of the mouse. I searched Yahoo Auctions here in Japan, but prices were too high for my taste and despite my knowing Japanese, I wanted the transaction to be 100% in my native tongue of English. My searching ultimately led me where it always does, back to EBAY. I of course searched for a reasonable price (not necessarily the "lowest price"), from a seller who had the guts to sell outside the beloved US of A (yes, sellers who discriminate against Americans living outside The Motherland piss me off). His willingness to ship "worldwide" immediately garnered my respect, even though I didn't even know him. Funny how that works, especially when issues like blatant discrimination upsets you so. Anyway, I spoke with that seller more than once prior to purchase. I explained why I needed a mouse replacement because I did not want a mouse that would have the same problem as the mouse I was trying to replace -- a damaged cable. The seller assured me the mouse would not have a frayed cable like my old mouse. Moreover, he told me it would be the best mouse of all the mice had had for sale. He had a good feedback rating, so I felt safe about a purchase from him.
I won the auction and a week later the mouse arrived. The box was tiny and not well packed, but it contained a handwritten letter from the seller. The letter repeated that this mouse was the best he had and he knew I would be happy with it. I felt greatly relieved. Two seconds later I noticed the mouse had the exact same frayed cable as my defective mouse.
I feel like this was more than mere deception. It was almost like the seller patiently listened to my story, then looked for the worst mouse he had -- one that had the same problem as I reported. In light of what he told me prior to the sale, and especially in light of his handwritten letter, what other conclusion could one arrive at? There are other stories as well, but I spare you.
There is a Satan, folks. He sells Apple-branded trinkets that you and I like to buy from time to time.
All said, I somewhat feel like a masochist. Because despite knowing how treacherous many vendors are on EBAY, I continue to go their to get my vintage Mac fix. On some level, I feel very ashamed. May you fair better than I have.
I don't have much but a "me too" on the scratching my head on the 128K pricing nonsense.
I'm one of the "recent new collectors" that has been mentioned, and as such I'll shed some light on at least one data point of the new collector motivation and some observations fresh to the hobby.
Why: Nostalgia, desire for a low-distraction minimalist productivity environment, interest in setting up a safe(er) computing environment for my children. I think these are legit motivations.
What:
1. 7 eMate300s for $50 ($7.15 each). These were a good deal, but they need new cell repacks (which I have done in the garage). The seller didn't try and gull me.
2. LaserWriter Select 360. $90 ($60 of it shipping) I'm not satisfied--pending some work on my side. The seller had posted a photo of a printed page and though the unit is in good cosmetic condition and very complete in the original box, it just sits there after the power light blinks a while. Laserwriter utility says toner cartridge, so I have one on the way but I'm skeptical and think it might be a fuser lamp malf or even worse caps (I am going to wait to start digging into it).
3. Apple Keyboard II and Square Mouse for $25. These were in great condition and while the price is probably a little high, I don't have the time to go yard saling.
4. "Vintage" Mac IIci. $40. This one was a bit of a disappointment. Pretty sure the seller was a "recycler" who buys huge lots and disposes of it with as little work on his part as possible. The hard drive had been cut out with a pair of dykes but otherwise it works and the NUBUS cards made it worth it--this would have been easily identifiable but wasn't noted and I hadn't asked (lesson learned).
5. Powerbook 1400c. $100. This was an almost like-new 1400c, so in my mind the price was worth it. But, the "64MB RAM" was half virtual memory so was there a little shadyness going on? I could drive myself crazy going down all those rabbit holes.
6. Mac IIci with M1212 Monitor and 170MB external SCSI HD. $211. I spent the extra money because the photos verified that it would get to the desktop, I could tell that the internal HD was 80MB, there was a network card, cache card, and a video card, I could use the ext. HD to move files, there was probably some decent software on it, and both banks of RAM were filled with at least 1MB SIMMs, plus a network card. The seller packaged it like a nincompoop with boxes they got from the post office as padding and I was lucky it arrived in working order. But it is a working system and I hooked it up to a nice LCD and am satisfied (though I didn't get lucky with the RAM--only 8MB).
7. Powerbook 180. $35. This one was in great shape but not top of the line options. No complaints.
8. Powerbook 180. $28. This one was in good shape, minor cosmetic flaws but it had high RAM and the largest HD. No complaints.
Observations: Sometimes it's a little difficult to understand what is being presented. $600 for what I bought--is that a lot, is that not a lot? Was I an ignoramus? Did I unwittingly help drive prices up? Did I bore you? There's just so much to consider if you're thoughtful.
One thing that I will offer is that impatience, desire, and idle cash drives impulse purchases on eBay. A high BIN is like throwing a bit of bait out there. Some will bite, some won't, so what? There are probably sellers out there whose only reason for setting high BINs is that they don't even know how worthless what they have is, and they're only referencing some other seller's listing as a guide for what they should sell their "rare, vintage 128K MAC" for.
Anyway, definitely food for thought.
Best,
John
I'm one of the "recent new collectors" that has been mentioned, and as such I'll shed some light on at least one data point of the new collector motivation and some observations fresh to the hobby.
Why: Nostalgia, desire for a low-distraction minimalist productivity environment, interest in setting up a safe(er) computing environment for my children. I think these are legit motivations.
What:
1. 7 eMate300s for $50 ($7.15 each). These were a good deal, but they need new cell repacks (which I have done in the garage). The seller didn't try and gull me.
2. LaserWriter Select 360. $90 ($60 of it shipping) I'm not satisfied--pending some work on my side. The seller had posted a photo of a printed page and though the unit is in good cosmetic condition and very complete in the original box, it just sits there after the power light blinks a while. Laserwriter utility says toner cartridge, so I have one on the way but I'm skeptical and think it might be a fuser lamp malf or even worse caps (I am going to wait to start digging into it).
3. Apple Keyboard II and Square Mouse for $25. These were in great condition and while the price is probably a little high, I don't have the time to go yard saling.
4. "Vintage" Mac IIci. $40. This one was a bit of a disappointment. Pretty sure the seller was a "recycler" who buys huge lots and disposes of it with as little work on his part as possible. The hard drive had been cut out with a pair of dykes but otherwise it works and the NUBUS cards made it worth it--this would have been easily identifiable but wasn't noted and I hadn't asked (lesson learned).
5. Powerbook 1400c. $100. This was an almost like-new 1400c, so in my mind the price was worth it. But, the "64MB RAM" was half virtual memory so was there a little shadyness going on? I could drive myself crazy going down all those rabbit holes.
6. Mac IIci with M1212 Monitor and 170MB external SCSI HD. $211. I spent the extra money because the photos verified that it would get to the desktop, I could tell that the internal HD was 80MB, there was a network card, cache card, and a video card, I could use the ext. HD to move files, there was probably some decent software on it, and both banks of RAM were filled with at least 1MB SIMMs, plus a network card. The seller packaged it like a nincompoop with boxes they got from the post office as padding and I was lucky it arrived in working order. But it is a working system and I hooked it up to a nice LCD and am satisfied (though I didn't get lucky with the RAM--only 8MB).
7. Powerbook 180. $35. This one was in great shape but not top of the line options. No complaints.
8. Powerbook 180. $28. This one was in good shape, minor cosmetic flaws but it had high RAM and the largest HD. No complaints.
Observations: Sometimes it's a little difficult to understand what is being presented. $600 for what I bought--is that a lot, is that not a lot? Was I an ignoramus? Did I unwittingly help drive prices up? Did I bore you? There's just so much to consider if you're thoughtful.
One thing that I will offer is that impatience, desire, and idle cash drives impulse purchases on eBay. A high BIN is like throwing a bit of bait out there. Some will bite, some won't, so what? There are probably sellers out there whose only reason for setting high BINs is that they don't even know how worthless what they have is, and they're only referencing some other seller's listing as a guide for what they should sell their "rare, vintage 128K MAC" for.
Anyway, definitely food for thought.
Best,
John
Could a major factor for the dramatic rise in prices over specifically the few years be generational interest? I am shocked out how perfectly these posts predict my teenage embrace of the Classic Macintosh; last January I was poking around the internet at night and came across a picture of a Macintosh SE, and remembered how when I was in 2nd grade I'd played with it at school the entireday and wanted nothing more than to own one myself. It then occurred to me that because I had a job and because those computers had been rendered obsolete over a decade ago, it would easily be affordable to me. Now, I must made an aside in this story and note that among the NYU crowd I seek dramatically lower prices for almost anything I can buy, usually preferring to buy anything from the used market if possible. The next day I wrote a Craigslist ad offering $25 for any working Classic-shape system and got a working Classic from a nearby colector pronto.
Yes, I first referred almost exclusively to LEM for information. Yes, I only ventured to this forum and signed up when I encountered challenges.
That first Mac I bought cost me $25 when it may have been some $1000 1994 dollars when I was in elementary school and had no hopes of earning that quality of fiat currency. Upon realizing the Classic's limitations, my interest grew and somehow I bought a $50 SE/30 and bidded $150 on a CC and something like $170 for a pimped out and internet configured SE.
Oh, and I'm not following the assumption that teenagers are necessarily using their parents' money to buy things online. I've always had the sense that eBay purchases are exactly the type of reason teenagers work grocery store and retail jobs,etc.
Yes, I first referred almost exclusively to LEM for information. Yes, I only ventured to this forum and signed up when I encountered challenges.
That first Mac I bought cost me $25 when it may have been some $1000 1994 dollars when I was in elementary school and had no hopes of earning that quality of fiat currency. Upon realizing the Classic's limitations, my interest grew and somehow I bought a $50 SE/30 and bidded $150 on a CC and something like $170 for a pimped out and internet configured SE.
This may be a time when people are realizing they can wholly afford with their salaries computers they'd dreamed about as a little kid. During a recession, to this collegiate eco-nut, getting a Classic Mac was like getting a '93 Dodge Viper, or at least I showed it off to that extent. The last wave of kids who used these Macintoshes in school are finally becoming adults, and vintage is in; I can't tell you how many Oregon Trail (Apple II version) hunting scene T-shirts I've seen. And upon witnessing that trend I've observed many compliments of them, many forging hipster camaraderie over a common love for the old technology whose archaic character rebels against Facebook, 3G and iPads. In this recession, Macs are a hip, lost-cost alternative to gadgets like iPads. Furthermore, I speculate that if so, similar people's interests and thus investment in this hobby could grow like mine, which could explain the escalating prices for fully functional units, if the fascination began at a small price point.
Oh, and I'm not following the assumption that teenagers are necessarily using their parents' money to buy things online. I've always had the sense that eBay purchases are exactly the type of reason teenagers work grocery store and retail jobs,etc.
It has to do with people wanting what they could not afford when younger, but also this particular stuff is also getting harder to find in good working condition.
I got into this hobby because I wanted to play around with video capture hardware I was reading about back in the early to mid 1990's (magazines I had subscriptions to). So in 2001 I think it was I purchased a 950 to setup. While looking at what parts I needed to do video I decided to spend $150 for a PM8500 and then spent a few hundred more on upgrades to run OS 9 well (G3-400, 256MB RAM, ATA/66 card, UltimateRez video). I had never touched a mac before but it seemed like a cool way to get into all the editing systems I read about in the 90's which were mostly mac based. From there I started putting together old 386/486 systems for playing DOS games and buying up more video editing cards and mac systems.
During the 2001- 2005 or so period I picked up plenty of old PC, mac, Commodore, Amiga, Atari St, IIgs stuff for very little money. Then I noticed Amiga hardware started to cost a lot more, a couple years later IIgs hardware went from being free to people actually wanting it. Now old 68K macs seem to be going up in price as well as old PC gaming cards. Even the old Thinkpads I started collecting a year ago now have multiple bids. So here I am wondering why everything I collect seems to get more expensive. Are more people my age starting to collect as a hobby? Are younger people with money and no patience starting to bid against each other? Has everyone gone recycling crazy and the supply is not meeting demand? Or has everyone who got in early just hoarded all the good stuff and there is nothing left for new collectors? How long will this upward price trend last? Is computer collecting going to end up being a legit hobby like coins, stamps, cars, comics where "experts" in the field come up with grading systems and you see mint examples at all the big auction houses?
I got into this hobby because I wanted to play around with video capture hardware I was reading about back in the early to mid 1990's (magazines I had subscriptions to). So in 2001 I think it was I purchased a 950 to setup. While looking at what parts I needed to do video I decided to spend $150 for a PM8500 and then spent a few hundred more on upgrades to run OS 9 well (G3-400, 256MB RAM, ATA/66 card, UltimateRez video). I had never touched a mac before but it seemed like a cool way to get into all the editing systems I read about in the 90's which were mostly mac based. From there I started putting together old 386/486 systems for playing DOS games and buying up more video editing cards and mac systems.
During the 2001- 2005 or so period I picked up plenty of old PC, mac, Commodore, Amiga, Atari St, IIgs stuff for very little money. Then I noticed Amiga hardware started to cost a lot more, a couple years later IIgs hardware went from being free to people actually wanting it. Now old 68K macs seem to be going up in price as well as old PC gaming cards. Even the old Thinkpads I started collecting a year ago now have multiple bids. So here I am wondering why everything I collect seems to get more expensive. Are more people my age starting to collect as a hobby? Are younger people with money and no patience starting to bid against each other? Has everyone gone recycling crazy and the supply is not meeting demand? Or has everyone who got in early just hoarded all the good stuff and there is nothing left for new collectors? How long will this upward price trend last? Is computer collecting going to end up being a legit hobby like coins, stamps, cars, comics where "experts" in the field come up with grading systems and you see mint examples at all the big auction houses?
I think these two last posts are spot on.
There was definitely an unresolved itch to scratch with the IIcis, the Powerbook 180s, and the Powerbook 1400c I purchased. As I get on in life, I think that all you end up with are your prides and your regrets. Hopefully the stuff you're proud of is actually meaningful, and hopefully the stuff you regret is curable by spending a little money on an old computer. I count myself lucky. 3 90s era Apple laptops, most of 2 IIcis, and the usual brace of peripherals and software is a lot less expensive than an H3 or a Mustang.
The reactionary urge is another thing as well. After I read the LEM article about software bloat and such I had to agree. I started thinking about the wonderful paper correspondences I once had with people--it's been well over ten years since I sent an envelope containing a letter that I wrote with a pen. I mean, gee, if all we got from cpu clock speeds increasing by two orders of magnitude was wow, I can achieve roughly the same things I did with 4MB and 16MHz, why not revert? If I'm not the only one thinking this way, there should be an increase in the sort of purchasing trends that will see stiffer competition for classic equipment.
Also, there is someone out there right now who as a teenager thought if they only had a Lombard G3, they would be the next great American novelist. Instead, they settled on something else and when the time is ripe, they will look to eBay for succour. What's popular will shift. But there will never be a run on IIvis. Ever. Never happen.
On another note: I mentioned to someone, "You ever try to write a difficult paper on a computer hooked up to the internet?" Sweet Christ sometimes how I long for a computer that is physically unable to download and display a video of Elton John, Sting, Lady GaGa, and Bruce Springsteen singing Don't Stop Believin' by Steve Perry.
I know that some people purchase this sort of thing to establish "geek cred." I know that I get a lot of laughs from the Vectrex that sits in the corner of my office. I came by it honestly as a Christmas present in 1983. But there are people who will buy it just to display it, like a sculpture.
Consider this: If you can purchase $50 worth of broken gear, recap it and cannibalize it and put it in working order and sell it for more, is this good or bad for the hobby? Is this good or bad for the 68K community?
Best,
John
There was definitely an unresolved itch to scratch with the IIcis, the Powerbook 180s, and the Powerbook 1400c I purchased. As I get on in life, I think that all you end up with are your prides and your regrets. Hopefully the stuff you're proud of is actually meaningful, and hopefully the stuff you regret is curable by spending a little money on an old computer. I count myself lucky. 3 90s era Apple laptops, most of 2 IIcis, and the usual brace of peripherals and software is a lot less expensive than an H3 or a Mustang.
The reactionary urge is another thing as well. After I read the LEM article about software bloat and such I had to agree. I started thinking about the wonderful paper correspondences I once had with people--it's been well over ten years since I sent an envelope containing a letter that I wrote with a pen. I mean, gee, if all we got from cpu clock speeds increasing by two orders of magnitude was wow, I can achieve roughly the same things I did with 4MB and 16MHz, why not revert? If I'm not the only one thinking this way, there should be an increase in the sort of purchasing trends that will see stiffer competition for classic equipment.
Also, there is someone out there right now who as a teenager thought if they only had a Lombard G3, they would be the next great American novelist. Instead, they settled on something else and when the time is ripe, they will look to eBay for succour. What's popular will shift. But there will never be a run on IIvis. Ever. Never happen.
On another note: I mentioned to someone, "You ever try to write a difficult paper on a computer hooked up to the internet?" Sweet Christ sometimes how I long for a computer that is physically unable to download and display a video of Elton John, Sting, Lady GaGa, and Bruce Springsteen singing Don't Stop Believin' by Steve Perry.
I know that some people purchase this sort of thing to establish "geek cred." I know that I get a lot of laughs from the Vectrex that sits in the corner of my office. I came by it honestly as a Christmas present in 1983. But there are people who will buy it just to display it, like a sculpture.
Consider this: If you can purchase $50 worth of broken gear, recap it and cannibalize it and put it in working order and sell it for more, is this good or bad for the hobby? Is this good or bad for the 68K community?
Best,
John
Re: the $470 one on ebay...
I've been collecting compact macs for about 18 months now. I've got a few 128ks (here in the UK I'd say a simple unboxed (but non-yellowed) example, working but with maybe a flaky floppy drive goes for about £100-£200. I've been after a boxed one for a while but they're always for silly money. I sat there at 11pm and had a price in mind - I never put in bids, I decide what it's worth to me, considering the shipping as well and put that price in with 3 seconds left. Everything else is obviously pointless.
I was prepared to go to about $685 I think. This got me the machine delivered to my door for less than £550.
The price considered the unit was working, a bit yellowed, but most importantly - looking truely complete.
I never expect to get it for $685 but it was worth a punt. But I win. So I'm thinking - this guy has it listed as a buy-it-now the previous week for $1984.00 - crazy money - but that's obviously what he thinks it's worth. It goes for $470 - am I going to have problems?
Next morning - "sorry mate - I put the wrong power lead in to test how much memory it has and it started smoking - I emailed all the bidders to say it was fried". Wrong lead? There isn't such a thing as a wrong lead. He has good feedback so maybe it did smoke by chance or maybe he is looking to get out. So I gave him the choice - I felt $470 was a reasonable deal and would take it for that price needing attention or I could file a dispute and ultimately leave bad feedback (he has an unblemished record I doubt he woud like to cloud).
He said he would do that, throw in some extras and he feels bad.
So maybe when I get it, it will just work. Maybe I'll need to take a look.
Talking about the thread topic. I buy and sell a bit. I mainly keep, but sometimes I don't have enough money to keep it all. One of the factors in differences in price I've found is that macs in the UK go cheap to people in the UK (because they're common). However, if you offer it to Europe with a reasonable shipping price, you find there is a big demand for them in Spain, Portugal and Greece. They pay more because a lot of sellers won't ship to Europe. I do admit I sell them (successfully) at the highest price point I see on ebay, but as far as I am concerned, I take lots of pictures, pack it well, descibe it properly and provide a service others don't and it allows me to pursue my collection without it impacting on my pathetic salary. One other factor is that the price has to be a bit higher to ship to Europe etc because I take on a quantity of the risk that it might arrive damaged or broken. With Paypal, I know if there is a problem, as the seller I am at a disadvantage. So I factor in that maybe 1 in 20 deals will go sour through no fault of my own. UPS are renowned for being a complete pain in the ar5e when it comes to claims - to the point I won't claim unless it's a very valuable item.
Not sure if this all makes me an evil empire or not.... As and when I meet another collector then the price/swap changes to that level. It's just appropriation of price to the market the item is within.
I've been collecting compact macs for about 18 months now. I've got a few 128ks (here in the UK I'd say a simple unboxed (but non-yellowed) example, working but with maybe a flaky floppy drive goes for about £100-£200. I've been after a boxed one for a while but they're always for silly money. I sat there at 11pm and had a price in mind - I never put in bids, I decide what it's worth to me, considering the shipping as well and put that price in with 3 seconds left. Everything else is obviously pointless.
I was prepared to go to about $685 I think. This got me the machine delivered to my door for less than £550.
The price considered the unit was working, a bit yellowed, but most importantly - looking truely complete.
I never expect to get it for $685 but it was worth a punt. But I win. So I'm thinking - this guy has it listed as a buy-it-now the previous week for $1984.00 - crazy money - but that's obviously what he thinks it's worth. It goes for $470 - am I going to have problems?
Next morning - "sorry mate - I put the wrong power lead in to test how much memory it has and it started smoking - I emailed all the bidders to say it was fried". Wrong lead? There isn't such a thing as a wrong lead. He has good feedback so maybe it did smoke by chance or maybe he is looking to get out. So I gave him the choice - I felt $470 was a reasonable deal and would take it for that price needing attention or I could file a dispute and ultimately leave bad feedback (he has an unblemished record I doubt he woud like to cloud).
He said he would do that, throw in some extras and he feels bad.
So maybe when I get it, it will just work. Maybe I'll need to take a look.
Talking about the thread topic. I buy and sell a bit. I mainly keep, but sometimes I don't have enough money to keep it all. One of the factors in differences in price I've found is that macs in the UK go cheap to people in the UK (because they're common). However, if you offer it to Europe with a reasonable shipping price, you find there is a big demand for them in Spain, Portugal and Greece. They pay more because a lot of sellers won't ship to Europe. I do admit I sell them (successfully) at the highest price point I see on ebay, but as far as I am concerned, I take lots of pictures, pack it well, descibe it properly and provide a service others don't and it allows me to pursue my collection without it impacting on my pathetic salary. One other factor is that the price has to be a bit higher to ship to Europe etc because I take on a quantity of the risk that it might arrive damaged or broken. With Paypal, I know if there is a problem, as the seller I am at a disadvantage. So I factor in that maybe 1 in 20 deals will go sour through no fault of my own. UPS are renowned for being a complete pain in the ar5e when it comes to claims - to the point I won't claim unless it's a very valuable item.
Not sure if this all makes me an evil empire or not.... As and when I meet another collector then the price/swap changes to that level. It's just appropriation of price to the market the item is within.
solidpro, thanks for that background. You definitely would have won it regardless, so I'm glad I didn't jump in to drive the price up any higher for you. Not to mention, how much less it actually cost you thanks to the current exchange rate with the robust British Pound!
And yes I agree I think these last few posts are particularly cogent. One of these days I will post a graph of the prices I have been monitoring so we can all get better picture of the price fluctuations and speculate further. But I am almost certain, that eBay is like Vegas, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't depending who is in the market for a 128K Mac at any given time.
And to address JDW's cynicism (and I in no way deny you that JDW ... getting burned always leaves a bad taste in your mouth), eBay is not much different than going into a Persian Bazaar, you really don't know what you've bought until you get it home and appraised. I think by this time, any veteran of eBay must go in eyes-wide-open. In the case of solidpro's steal, I stand by that. Yes, the analogue board is non-funtional, but likely repairable. If not, there are several analogue boards available now on eBay for less than $100. So let's say it costs him $570, it's still a STEAL! Even without the Mac, if solidpro had acquired the box and each accessory separately, I suspect he would have paid well over half of what he paid for the complete system. Considering even non-working 128Ks are selling for almost $200, yeah, I'd say it's a good deal.
And that is the pact we collectors make with ourselves. We weigh the value of what we bought with how much we are willing to pay. Now, for someone else, say some of Danapplemacman's buyers, who arguably pay his premiums for the guarantee of a fully serviced and functional 128K, who expects a no hassle experience, akin to buying one new in 1984, would not tolerate receiving an item in that condition, for any amount of money. You know those people who have never even seen a soldering iron. Then again, for that price (depending on how much you had to spend on such a hobby), considering you have received an otherwise complete boxed system, I would consider selling the CPU "as-is" and looking for a working one. Otherwise I would force the seller to return the item and credit a full refund.
In the end, it's still up to the buyer to do the research. In solidpro's case, it seems like the seller was pretty upfront about what was going on, even if he actually decided to swap out the functional board for a non-working board because the auction didn't get the price he wanted. At least he let solidpro know before he shipped it, and then played dumb (which I know allegedly happens). So I maintain it was a good deal, and would suggest it was a good deal for anyone one who might have purchased it – and at the risk of overusing that hot-button word, good deals on eBay are RARE!
Again, solidpro, congrats on your win, and do let us know the condition of what you finally receive ... I'm sure we're all curious now.
And yes I agree I think these last few posts are particularly cogent. One of these days I will post a graph of the prices I have been monitoring so we can all get better picture of the price fluctuations and speculate further. But I am almost certain, that eBay is like Vegas, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't depending who is in the market for a 128K Mac at any given time.
And to address JDW's cynicism (and I in no way deny you that JDW ... getting burned always leaves a bad taste in your mouth), eBay is not much different than going into a Persian Bazaar, you really don't know what you've bought until you get it home and appraised. I think by this time, any veteran of eBay must go in eyes-wide-open. In the case of solidpro's steal, I stand by that. Yes, the analogue board is non-funtional, but likely repairable. If not, there are several analogue boards available now on eBay for less than $100. So let's say it costs him $570, it's still a STEAL! Even without the Mac, if solidpro had acquired the box and each accessory separately, I suspect he would have paid well over half of what he paid for the complete system. Considering even non-working 128Ks are selling for almost $200, yeah, I'd say it's a good deal.
And that is the pact we collectors make with ourselves. We weigh the value of what we bought with how much we are willing to pay. Now, for someone else, say some of Danapplemacman's buyers, who arguably pay his premiums for the guarantee of a fully serviced and functional 128K, who expects a no hassle experience, akin to buying one new in 1984, would not tolerate receiving an item in that condition, for any amount of money. You know those people who have never even seen a soldering iron. Then again, for that price (depending on how much you had to spend on such a hobby), considering you have received an otherwise complete boxed system, I would consider selling the CPU "as-is" and looking for a working one. Otherwise I would force the seller to return the item and credit a full refund.
In the end, it's still up to the buyer to do the research. In solidpro's case, it seems like the seller was pretty upfront about what was going on, even if he actually decided to swap out the functional board for a non-working board because the auction didn't get the price he wanted. At least he let solidpro know before he shipped it, and then played dumb (which I know allegedly happens). So I maintain it was a good deal, and would suggest it was a good deal for anyone one who might have purchased it – and at the risk of overusing that hot-button word, good deals on eBay are RARE!
Again, solidpro, congrats on your win, and do let us know the condition of what you finally receive ... I'm sure we're all curious now.
Hmm. If your inbound toner cartridge doesn't fix that, I would call that a tad dubious.
Perhaps a little - or on the other hand a seller not understanding the difference between "Installed memory" and "Total memory" in System Profiler. It's a mistake I've seen genuine n00bs make before. The fact that a 1400 can only take 56MB of RAM might have been a small giveaway
Not overly. Considering the productive set-up you have assembled, that seems like a fair total, especially given that you didn't want to wait forever for bargain basement specials. IMHO you got a mix of genuine bargains (those eMates!) slightly over the odds (second IIci - unless that included shipping?) average/fair price, and a spot of bad luck (the Laserwriter). Seems par for the ebay course to me, and you have what you want at a price you're OK with, so .. yay.
No more so than everyone else who bid on those items. Such is the market. And no, not at all, that was a very interesting and relevant post. Thankyou.
/EDIT/ And thanks to everyone else who has posted about their experiences here. Most helpful and informative.
Seems everymac concurs. I am probably misrememberating.
Given the accessory bundle you got with it and the fact that shipping included a monitor, not excessively.
Don't mind me, I'm still pining for the days when you could pick up a dozen compacts for a dollar
) :scrambled: Watch out for all the Mac spec sites. Many of them have errors.
Some examples I can think of:
1. Mac SE/30: Many sites say it was discontinued in October 1990. It was discontinued in October 1991.
2. Mac LC II: Apple officially recommends 6.0.8 or higher, but many sites do not acknowledge that it can actually run 6.0.7 (although some do recognize the fact that an SE or Classic can run SSW older than the original version). I have been using an LC II with 6.0.7 for the past two days to test drives.
3. Mac SE: I don't think any of the major sites have recognition of the machines produced after the original discontinuation date. An SE can be as new as January 1991 (there may even be some from early February out there).
4. Macintosh ED: There's a good thread on here that explains this Mac. Most sites get it wrong and fail to recognize the many different computers tagged as such.
Some examples I can think of:
1. Mac SE/30: Many sites say it was discontinued in October 1990. It was discontinued in October 1991.
2. Mac LC II: Apple officially recommends 6.0.8 or higher, but many sites do not acknowledge that it can actually run 6.0.7 (although some do recognize the fact that an SE or Classic can run SSW older than the original version). I have been using an LC II with 6.0.7 for the past two days to test drives.
3. Mac SE: I don't think any of the major sites have recognition of the machines produced after the original discontinuation date. An SE can be as new as January 1991 (there may even be some from early February out there).
4. Macintosh ED: There's a good thread on here that explains this Mac. Most sites get it wrong and fail to recognize the many different computers tagged as such.
Since this topic was sort of hidden in the closet these days, I thought I would offer this opinion. Sometimes all of the above reasons are right, just at different times. I bought a 128k off of Craigslist after having bad to disastrous experiences with an SE, Classic, and Classic II. The vintage hard disks let me down on the SE, the Classic was working for several months (but not as long as the SE between both hard disks) and then the video blew out, and the Classic II was packed so poorly it died in shipping.
So I see that, after about 20 other vintage to retro computers with around 30 different vintage to retro hard disks all failed in the end, that I would have to forego the safety net of mass storage and try for the one machine I had previously shoved aside as not rare enough, not capable enough, not anything enough, and see if it would do better.
Long story short, I found a 128k that had all of the characteristics I insisted on, even if I had to accept every single one of the things I was willing to compromise on. It wound up working for over a year and is still working today. I couldn't get that out of more modern computers. (I had a Quadra 700, but it's hard disk died after 2 weeks. Click of Death. Same thing with an LC 575, and the SE with 2 separate 20SC hard disks. Had that not happened, I might still have those three machines today, and be much happier. Also happened to a Performa 6400/200 with 3 different hard disks. That machine I could watch TV on.
I now have an ImageWriter, a carrying case, an M0130 external floppy drive, and have purchased but not received a Kensington System Saver (those four from evilBay sadly) and I have not regretted going without a hard disk on a retro computer.
(The 400k floppy drives used in these older machines seem to be much more durable, even given that they are removable.)
Kindest wishes sincerely most,
Alex Harris
(P.S. The Twiggy prototype that just recently dropped to the slightly more affordable sum of $74,995 and some odd cents is an extreme case in point.)
So I see that, after about 20 other vintage to retro computers with around 30 different vintage to retro hard disks all failed in the end, that I would have to forego the safety net of mass storage and try for the one machine I had previously shoved aside as not rare enough, not capable enough, not anything enough, and see if it would do better.
Long story short, I found a 128k that had all of the characteristics I insisted on, even if I had to accept every single one of the things I was willing to compromise on. It wound up working for over a year and is still working today. I couldn't get that out of more modern computers. (I had a Quadra 700, but it's hard disk died after 2 weeks. Click of Death. Same thing with an LC 575, and the SE with 2 separate 20SC hard disks. Had that not happened, I might still have those three machines today, and be much happier. Also happened to a Performa 6400/200 with 3 different hard disks. That machine I could watch TV on.
I now have an ImageWriter, a carrying case, an M0130 external floppy drive, and have purchased but not received a Kensington System Saver (those four from evilBay sadly) and I have not regretted going without a hard disk on a retro computer.
(The 400k floppy drives used in these older machines seem to be much more durable, even given that they are removable.)
Kindest wishes sincerely most,
Alex Harris
(P.S. The Twiggy prototype that just recently dropped to the slightly more affordable sum of $74,995 and some odd cents is an extreme case in point.)
For compact Macs, I would agree that hard disks are more trouble than they are worth. Personally, given the limitations of the 68000, I prefer using an external ZIP drive -- even on a 68030 compact which might benefit from more storage. Let's face it, the old SCSI drives are getting more and more unreliable, they are generally noisy, and can be difficult to format and maintain.
With the obvious exception of stock 128 & 512k, a Zip drive can be used successfully on any Mac. Upgrading the ROM of a 128k & 512k and adding a SCSI port allows the ZIP to work with the earliest Mac. The Zip is quite, easy to use, reliable, and cheap, as well as making it easy to organize your software, rather than searching all over a large formatted hard disk without a decent search function in Vintage Macs.
Http://mac128.com/zip
Another option available to you on the 128K and 512K which makes a world of difference in lieu of a hard drive, is using an external (or internal) 800K drive. You'll find a link for this at the same site.
If Apple had released the first Mac with an 800K drive (as the Twiggy drive would have been), even with only 128K RAM, it would have been a much more pleasant experience, and might have changed Apple's future. Actually thinking about that prototype, that might have been one of the 11th hour unexpected problems with the Mac ... The developers had all been using 800K disks, so no one experienced what it was like to be constrained to a mere 400K until it was too late to do anything about it.
With the obvious exception of stock 128 & 512k, a Zip drive can be used successfully on any Mac. Upgrading the ROM of a 128k & 512k and adding a SCSI port allows the ZIP to work with the earliest Mac. The Zip is quite, easy to use, reliable, and cheap, as well as making it easy to organize your software, rather than searching all over a large formatted hard disk without a decent search function in Vintage Macs.
Http://mac128.com/zip
Another option available to you on the 128K and 512K which makes a world of difference in lieu of a hard drive, is using an external (or internal) 800K drive. You'll find a link for this at the same site.
If Apple had released the first Mac with an 800K drive (as the Twiggy drive would have been), even with only 128K RAM, it would have been a much more pleasant experience, and might have changed Apple's future. Actually thinking about that prototype, that might have been one of the 11th hour unexpected problems with the Mac ... The developers had all been using 800K disks, so no one experienced what it was like to be constrained to a mere 400K until it was too late to do anything about it.
yes the first thing i do when i get a vintage mac in, is plug in the local talk and copy all to my powermac 7500,
just because a hard drive works when you fire it up for the first time in 10 years, doesn't mean it works. i've had it happen 2 times now where
it boots up works, sits over night, or for a week, and then spin up click click, and spin down. very frustrating. right now i have 2 quantum 160 meg drives , i open up the drive and if i move the head over (a little) once it fully spins up it starts to work, both are doing that. if i don't move the head, they just spin up and then spin down.
just because a hard drive works when you fire it up for the first time in 10 years, doesn't mean it works. i've had it happen 2 times now where
it boots up works, sits over night, or for a week, and then spin up click click, and spin down. very frustrating. right now i have 2 quantum 160 meg drives , i open up the drive and if i move the head over (a little) once it fully spins up it starts to work, both are doing that. if i don't move the head, they just spin up and then spin down.
I was fiddling with the conquest material on Sunday and fired up the SE/30 to inspect some floppy disks and plug in the trackball. I heard the sound of a grinding spinning media encountering resistance for about a second. It instantly commanded my attention and reminded me of the perilousness of digital media.
Computers and their infrastructure are rather frail. Basically, we have with our electronic gadgetry, a large superstructure supported by rather weak bonds. A real big gust of wind, and the building comes down.
Something to think about: If every electronic gadget that is in common use today, ie calculators, computers, cell phones, electronic cash registers, StuxNet infected PLCs, and so forth was instantly *gone*, how many of us would be able to do it the "old" way?
I don't have friend circles the size of celebrities, but there is only one person (although you could make that two) that knows (or says they know) how to use a slide rule (besides me). I mean, it's not critical to daily life, but a slide rule does have certain properties that are advantageous to its principle. One, a good K&E slide rule could last down to your grandchildren if it was well-cared for; two, no circuits to diagnose; three, it trains the mind to understand more fully what is going on, compared to just crunching √40 into a calculator (which, approximated, is 2√10, which is 2x3.1, or about 6.2, just off my head).
Computers and their infrastructure are rather frail. Basically, we have with our electronic gadgetry, a large superstructure supported by rather weak bonds. A real big gust of wind, and the building comes down.
Something to think about: If every electronic gadget that is in common use today, ie calculators, computers, cell phones, electronic cash registers, StuxNet infected PLCs, and so forth was instantly *gone*, how many of us would be able to do it the "old" way?
I don't have friend circles the size of celebrities, but there is only one person (although you could make that two) that knows (or says they know) how to use a slide rule (besides me). I mean, it's not critical to daily life, but a slide rule does have certain properties that are advantageous to its principle. One, a good K&E slide rule could last down to your grandchildren if it was well-cared for; two, no circuits to diagnose; three, it trains the mind to understand more fully what is going on, compared to just crunching √40 into a calculator (which, approximated, is 2√10, which is 2x3.1, or about 6.2, just off my head).
Interestingly, JJ Abrams is producing a new series for NBC this Fall which deals with that exact situation, in which not only has the grid gone down, but some kind of "dampening field" prevents electrical current from flowing, so it can't be repaired. Tune in to see what one person thinks would happen ...
I've noticed whats happening to compact macs is what happens generally to cars.
Something fairly ubiquitous in the 80s, then they're everywhere, then they become cheap and disposable, then they become less and less, people start gathering good examples, selling them as rare and the price inflates.
When I picked up the Mac Plus in the late 90s, it was at a car boot sale (similar to "yard sale" / "flea market" etc) the man had a table full of them, I picked mine up for a £5, despite it not working (bad solder) and I thought I could pick up an ADB mouse for it (little did I know).
Schools, companies, offices, homes were getting rid of their compacts and they were everywhere.
Now, the only people who have compacts are those who want to collect them, so they aren't looking rid of them for small amounts of money.
Something fairly ubiquitous in the 80s, then they're everywhere, then they become cheap and disposable, then they become less and less, people start gathering good examples, selling them as rare and the price inflates.
When I picked up the Mac Plus in the late 90s, it was at a car boot sale (similar to "yard sale" / "flea market" etc) the man had a table full of them, I picked mine up for a £5, despite it not working (bad solder) and I thought I could pick up an ADB mouse for it (little did I know).
Schools, companies, offices, homes were getting rid of their compacts and they were everywhere.
Now, the only people who have compacts are those who want to collect them, so they aren't looking rid of them for small amounts of money.
I think some of it may have to do with nostalgia and the death of Steve Jobs. I've wanted to put together a little "Mac museum" for over 10 years but upon hearing hearing of Steve Jobs passing, I actually started feeling nostalgic and re-buying some of these old Macs. I now have about 12 vintage Macs and I'm currently seeking an original 128 and if I can ever afford it, a Lisa
Due to the rise of the iPhone and iPad, everyone thinks they're a fanboy now. Rising stock prices? Maybe. People that 2 years ago never so much as touched an Apple computer are now being exposed to "our world". They see an Apple logo and think, "Wow, I bet I can get a ton of money for that. Apple's hot!"
I've seen post after post on eBay of people selling old PowerBook s, etc with the disclaimer. "I don't know anything about this so it's being sold as is" They're obviously not the original owner, came into possession of an old Mac, and they’re trying to sell it for $200.
Anyone else notice that the prices went through the roof after Steve died? People just cashing in. Same as when Michael Jackson died. eBay saw a huge in-rush of Michael Jackson memorabilia going for ridiculous prices.
I remember in 2008, I bought a complete mint condition Mac Plus on eBay for $20 bucks. I bought my SE complete in the carrying case with external 800k drive for $70 bucks. These prices were common. Now people want $300 for a beat up yellowed SE.
Hopefully it dies down soon and the prices go back to being more realistic.
I've seen post after post on eBay of people selling old PowerBook s, etc with the disclaimer. "I don't know anything about this so it's being sold as is" They're obviously not the original owner, came into possession of an old Mac, and they’re trying to sell it for $200.
Anyone else notice that the prices went through the roof after Steve died? People just cashing in. Same as when Michael Jackson died. eBay saw a huge in-rush of Michael Jackson memorabilia going for ridiculous prices.
I remember in 2008, I bought a complete mint condition Mac Plus on eBay for $20 bucks. I bought my SE complete in the carrying case with external 800k drive for $70 bucks. These prices were common. Now people want $300 for a beat up yellowed SE.
Hopefully it dies down soon and the prices go back to being more realistic.
Krye, it won't happen anytime soon. I say this unfortunate fact while sharing in your sorrow over the auction sharks. Apple is perpetually in the news because they're doing well. They're making a movie about the life of Steve Jobs, as if the Pirates of Silicon Valley wasn't enough. I don't expect to EBay prices to wane until Apple's popularity wanes, and the media puts less emphasis on Apple. For most people (which exclude most of us), the old adage "out of sight, out of mind" rings true.
I see it as a combination of apple riding the crest of the iphone wave and the current trend for retro.
They're like classic cars, people bought up classics in the 80s and then after the 90s recession they weren't worth that much. Enjoy them for what they are but people shouldn't be stockpiling them as an investment.
A lot of people are snapping them up to sell on to make a quick buck. They're likely the same type of wheeler dealers that buy an old car on gumtree and relist it an hour later with a fake service history.
Why do I have 2 compacts then?
I bought the plus about 13 years ago for £5 as I liked the compacts in school and fancied one for home. It didn't work, sat about then went into the attic when I went to university (UK version of 'college'). I picked up the classic 2 from a local art gallery that must have been clearing out, looked in good condition and a reasonable price, local too (difficult to find items locally). Brings back memories of typing articles into the old school newsletter or IT classes, printing your letters from Clarisworks to the Laserwriter.
Yes they may be worth a few pound, but then over the years the caps are likely to leak or some other catastrophe, so I'm not seeing them as long term investments. I would like to keep them as nice as possible and as long as possible, but physics is against that.
I mind I was watching that Pawn Stars on the TV and someone came in with a IIGS and was looking a few hundred dollars. They offered a low price and were in the back playing games on it.
They're like classic cars, people bought up classics in the 80s and then after the 90s recession they weren't worth that much. Enjoy them for what they are but people shouldn't be stockpiling them as an investment.
A lot of people are snapping them up to sell on to make a quick buck. They're likely the same type of wheeler dealers that buy an old car on gumtree and relist it an hour later with a fake service history.
Why do I have 2 compacts then?
I bought the plus about 13 years ago for £5 as I liked the compacts in school and fancied one for home. It didn't work, sat about then went into the attic when I went to university (UK version of 'college'). I picked up the classic 2 from a local art gallery that must have been clearing out, looked in good condition and a reasonable price, local too (difficult to find items locally). Brings back memories of typing articles into the old school newsletter or IT classes, printing your letters from Clarisworks to the Laserwriter.
Yes they may be worth a few pound, but then over the years the caps are likely to leak or some other catastrophe, so I'm not seeing them as long term investments. I would like to keep them as nice as possible and as long as possible, but physics is against that.
I mind I was watching that Pawn Stars on the TV and someone came in with a IIGS and was looking a few hundred dollars. They offered a low price and were in the back playing games on it.