Thread
Best Preservation Methods For Macs?
So we all know that the vintage compacts we so dearly love have a limited lifespan. While the cases may last for ever, the electronics are not likely to fare so well. That got me thinking. Many of us have certain Macs we dedicate for use and experimentation. But most of us have pristine examples of some Macs, which we maintain in "museum" condition. So here's the question:
Which is better for the Mac? Using it and keeping in good operational condition, thus hastening the deterioration of the components, or storing it in a cool dry location to preserve it for the future, perhaps bringing it out on special occasion to demonstrate, or play with it? In other words, once a Mac goes into a museum exhibit, is its lifespan more limited than actually using it?
Obviously anything mechanical must be regularly maintained as anyone who has received a 400K drive which has not been used in years knows. But what about the electronics? We all know the capacitors are going to leak sooner or later, no matter how they are stored. That will happen whether used or not. Obviously one can't just store a Mac and forget about it, as at least a regular check up is required to prevent irreparable damage. But in general principle, does using a Mac, or storing a Mac cause more damage to the electronics? Like the "weekend warrior" who is more likely to have a heart attack because they are sedentary for 5 days and then suddenly active, does that kind of activity also adversely affect a Mac? Is running it once in a while more harmful than running it regularly?
So the bottom line is, are we actually preserving our precious Macs by carefully storing them?
Which is better for the Mac? Using it and keeping in good operational condition, thus hastening the deterioration of the components, or storing it in a cool dry location to preserve it for the future, perhaps bringing it out on special occasion to demonstrate, or play with it? In other words, once a Mac goes into a museum exhibit, is its lifespan more limited than actually using it?
Obviously anything mechanical must be regularly maintained as anyone who has received a 400K drive which has not been used in years knows. But what about the electronics? We all know the capacitors are going to leak sooner or later, no matter how they are stored. That will happen whether used or not. Obviously one can't just store a Mac and forget about it, as at least a regular check up is required to prevent irreparable damage. But in general principle, does using a Mac, or storing a Mac cause more damage to the electronics? Like the "weekend warrior" who is more likely to have a heart attack because they are sedentary for 5 days and then suddenly active, does that kind of activity also adversely affect a Mac? Is running it once in a while more harmful than running it regularly?
So the bottom line is, are we actually preserving our precious Macs by carefully storing them?
I think electronics should be used at least every once in a while. Using them will also help find problems before they become major problems (leaking capacitors and PRAM batteries for one). Storing them in a cool dry place will help keep them working, too many people stick them in attics or barns where the elements kill them over time.
I am sure many hoarders think they are saving machines for future generations, but most will end up in the trash when they pass away anyway (or have to move). All the stuff I have is stuff I want to use, I keep them running so I can use them.
I am sure many hoarders think they are saving machines for future generations, but most will end up in the trash when they pass away anyway (or have to move). All the stuff I have is stuff I want to use, I keep them running so I can use them.
I would imagine old computer are a lot like old cars. Moisture and lack of use tend to be the biggest villains to avoid. I would imagine firing up a computer at least 3 or 4 times a year would be a good thing for the capacitors and whatnot inside. Moisture would also lead to corrosion on contacts and added dust collection, so I bet that would be the worst thing.
I'm with Hrududu on this one. Sure, the capacitors are going to fail, now if not then in 5 years. But that is a way of life. If you just make your Mac into a museum piece and not use it for productivity, then it defeats the purpose of Mac ownership. My actions allow for more use out of these great machines. I am in hope that at least we can be a reference to others even though these machines have been moved out of the mainstream use.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we don't have to own every single model but just have a handful around, just in case. For me, I'll gladly hand on to the three Macs I own; one for each era of processor family change. Should I run into somebody who has an old disc with personal files they wish to get transferred to more new formats, then they can rely on me.
We live in a disposable society. Electronic technology is constantly evolving and there are a lot of people who are just throwing the old in the trash. I hate to think of all those machines being dumped in some landfill, their toxic chemicals seeping into the groundwater in some third world country. If we can save just x number of machines from that kind of fate, we are doing our part on making this a much cleaner place to live. Heck, even if you don't want to keep it, donate them to someone who can't afford a computer. Give these inexpensive machines one last free ride before they truly give up their ghost.
73s de Phreakout. :rambo:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we don't have to own every single model but just have a handful around, just in case. For me, I'll gladly hand on to the three Macs I own; one for each era of processor family change. Should I run into somebody who has an old disc with personal files they wish to get transferred to more new formats, then they can rely on me.
We live in a disposable society. Electronic technology is constantly evolving and there are a lot of people who are just throwing the old in the trash. I hate to think of all those machines being dumped in some landfill, their toxic chemicals seeping into the groundwater in some third world country. If we can save just x number of machines from that kind of fate, we are doing our part on making this a much cleaner place to live. Heck, even if you don't want to keep it, donate them to someone who can't afford a computer. Give these inexpensive machines one last free ride before they truly give up their ghost.
73s de Phreakout. :rambo:
Giving a poor person a vintage 68K mac as their main machine is about the same as throwing it away. There are tons of much newer and usable machines they could get for free or close to it and get work done.
The way I see it saving a machine from recycling is not permanent. Somewhere along the line the next owner will either like to mess with it, be able to pass it on to another collector, or will recycle it. The best machines of the time that still exist will end up with collectors (if there are any), a few of roadapples will be around because of rarity (most will have been recycled). There has to be a want or need for the old gear or it will end up recycled today or 10 years down the road. Don't worry about just preserving items for other generations, trust me if they want it they will find it or make a new one.
The way I see it saving a machine from recycling is not permanent. Somewhere along the line the next owner will either like to mess with it, be able to pass it on to another collector, or will recycle it. The best machines of the time that still exist will end up with collectors (if there are any), a few of roadapples will be around because of rarity (most will have been recycled). There has to be a want or need for the old gear or it will end up recycled today or 10 years down the road. Don't worry about just preserving items for other generations, trust me if they want it they will find it or make a new one.
Agreed. It's easy for us to say that you can get by with a 68k as a main machine, after all, that's what they, and many of us, did back in the day. But right now the main concern is internet connectivity, and for that you'd need a pretty recent version of Mac OS X for it to work well.
Sometimes, internet connectivity is not the goal. Instead, lack of internet is desired in a handful of cases.
As many of you know, I am a huge advocate of 68K Macs in education. We all know what they can do in terms of enriching an education through programs such as Math Blaster and Carmen Sandiego. In fact, some of us learned a few things from these games when we were children. However, there are other reasons why you may not want a web connection:
1. The web can provide for many distractions (at all age levels--think about it, a computer without chat, social networking sites, online games--this is exactly what you want for your kids who need to focus on homework and studies).
2. There is bad stuff on the web. Yes, we've been hearing this for about 20 years now, but it's true. Besides, kids can get around web filters and disable tracking software--they're tech-savvy and curious, just as we were years ago when we found ways to get around At Ease. Also, some kids are extremely gullible and will fall for anything they read online--be it an unreliable Wikipedia page, a dating profile of a 39 year old ex-con posing as a 13 year old, the temptation to illegally download music, or some offer for free stuff that winds up installing a virus on the computer. Depending on the maturity level of the kid, the internet may not be for them to use unsupervised.
3. Even for those who are mature enough to know how to use the web, it can be distracting! Online chat, social networking sites, fantasy sports, and even forums like this one can get in the way of productivity. Yes, the papers may get done, but they may not be done until 1AM. By using the web-capable computer as a reward for finishing the paper, there is incentive to get it done on the machine without a web connection. (If it has to be turned in online, simply put it on a floppy and copy it over--Snow Leopard can read floppies, it just can't write them.
4. I'm sure some of us on this forum like to go camping. (I mean real camping, as in going outdoors with a tent--not sleeping outside the mall where the newest Apple Store is about to open with an iPad, iPhone, two iPods, and a MacBook in tow). When you camp, you usually do so to get away from the fast-paced, tech-heavy, overindustrialized world we live in today and sit back to enjoy the simplicity of nature and a world without distractions. Even if you don't camp, you probably like to take a vacation on a beach now and then to escape the daily grind. Think of a web-free computer as a camping trip--back to the basics.
With the last point in mind, we like to preserve land for campers so they can go and enjoy the same camping experience the great grandparents they talk about over a campfire did years ago. Of course, this land has to be maintained and used to be worth preserving. Our old Macs are the same way. We aren't going to let camping die out because we want our children to have the same memories we did of escaping the complexity of society that we did. Likewise, we shouldn't let these old Macs die out and need to do our part to run them regularly, store them at room temperature, take the PRAM batteries out when not in use, re-cap the boards if need be, celebrate them for their virtues, use them when the need calls, and preserve the experience of a computer without the treacheries of the internet for future generations--the "camping" experience of computing for many.
(If you were in Boy Scouts, you probably remember the Outdoor Code. The last sentence in the preceding paragraph is the 68K version of the Outdoor Code and should be memorized by all users of older Macs--a request from Scoutmaster Scott).
As many of you know, I am a huge advocate of 68K Macs in education. We all know what they can do in terms of enriching an education through programs such as Math Blaster and Carmen Sandiego. In fact, some of us learned a few things from these games when we were children. However, there are other reasons why you may not want a web connection:
1. The web can provide for many distractions (at all age levels--think about it, a computer without chat, social networking sites, online games--this is exactly what you want for your kids who need to focus on homework and studies).
2. There is bad stuff on the web. Yes, we've been hearing this for about 20 years now, but it's true. Besides, kids can get around web filters and disable tracking software--they're tech-savvy and curious, just as we were years ago when we found ways to get around At Ease. Also, some kids are extremely gullible and will fall for anything they read online--be it an unreliable Wikipedia page, a dating profile of a 39 year old ex-con posing as a 13 year old, the temptation to illegally download music, or some offer for free stuff that winds up installing a virus on the computer. Depending on the maturity level of the kid, the internet may not be for them to use unsupervised.
3. Even for those who are mature enough to know how to use the web, it can be distracting! Online chat, social networking sites, fantasy sports, and even forums like this one can get in the way of productivity. Yes, the papers may get done, but they may not be done until 1AM. By using the web-capable computer as a reward for finishing the paper, there is incentive to get it done on the machine without a web connection. (If it has to be turned in online, simply put it on a floppy and copy it over--Snow Leopard can read floppies, it just can't write them.
4. I'm sure some of us on this forum like to go camping. (I mean real camping, as in going outdoors with a tent--not sleeping outside the mall where the newest Apple Store is about to open with an iPad, iPhone, two iPods, and a MacBook in tow). When you camp, you usually do so to get away from the fast-paced, tech-heavy, overindustrialized world we live in today and sit back to enjoy the simplicity of nature and a world without distractions. Even if you don't camp, you probably like to take a vacation on a beach now and then to escape the daily grind. Think of a web-free computer as a camping trip--back to the basics.
With the last point in mind, we like to preserve land for campers so they can go and enjoy the same camping experience the great grandparents they talk about over a campfire did years ago. Of course, this land has to be maintained and used to be worth preserving. Our old Macs are the same way. We aren't going to let camping die out because we want our children to have the same memories we did of escaping the complexity of society that we did. Likewise, we shouldn't let these old Macs die out and need to do our part to run them regularly, store them at room temperature, take the PRAM batteries out when not in use, re-cap the boards if need be, celebrate them for their virtues, use them when the need calls, and preserve the experience of a computer without the treacheries of the internet for future generations--the "camping" experience of computing for many.
(If you were in Boy Scouts, you probably remember the Outdoor Code. The last sentence in the preceding paragraph is the 68K version of the Outdoor Code and should be memorized by all users of older Macs--a request from Scoutmaster Scott).
Long live the mini vMac.
I know about about a dozen LC 575/580 owning low-income families with grade-schoolers reading above level that would strongly disagree. Once again, the fact that it doesn't surf like a champion doesn't make it unworthy of preservation.
I was thinking mainly adults, but for kids, an early PowerMac could be just the thing. And they would still be able to use e-mail, I'd let the kids have that. Add a nice suite of educational and productivity software and it would be a great learning aid.
preservation and shoving these things onto poor people are 2 different things, its one to hobby around, but really? if you want to help the poor I know many of us have our little treasure troves where you can get a palette of 1ghz p3's for the cost of scrap, that can run a current OS and unless your doing something frivolous (ie trying to play the sims 2 or hd video over flash) actually run just fine
I almost think its mean to hand someone a grossly outdated computer and tell them to educate their kids on it, sure its fine for stickybear but you just gimped the kid by a decade (cause we all know that the future lies in system 7 right?)
You think it's cruel to give a poor 5 year-old a classic Mac and a stack of educational software?
The next time you're in Best Buy, walk into the educational software section. You'll find two categories of early education software. One is the new stuff - laden with absurd features designed to engage, but in reality only succeeding in distracting the students from the learning objectives. The other category is the software that is essentially a port of the same thing they've been selling since System 7. So I'm not convinced that the classic Mac is grossly outdated for the purposes I am describing (the ones you are ignoring).
Academic learning objectives are the purpose to which I'm referring - no one is saying "here's a Performa 577, now go to college and do your research." I'm not even saying they will learn computing skills at all, but those skills aren't the point (they will get rudimentary computing skills later in school) The goal here is to eliminate the inherent disadvantages associated with young low-income kids as they enter the school environment (mostly attributable to parents failing to read to children). My point is that classic educational software is more effective than modern educational software when it comes to young children - so why not run it on classic Macs and keep them out of the landfill?
OT hijacking over - adios amigos. :beige:
The next time you're in Best Buy, walk into the educational software section. You'll find two categories of early education software. One is the new stuff - laden with absurd features designed to engage, but in reality only succeeding in distracting the students from the learning objectives. The other category is the software that is essentially a port of the same thing they've been selling since System 7. So I'm not convinced that the classic Mac is grossly outdated for the purposes I am describing (the ones you are ignoring).
Academic learning objectives are the purpose to which I'm referring - no one is saying "here's a Performa 577, now go to college and do your research." I'm not even saying they will learn computing skills at all, but those skills aren't the point (they will get rudimentary computing skills later in school) The goal here is to eliminate the inherent disadvantages associated with young low-income kids as they enter the school environment (mostly attributable to parents failing to read to children). My point is that classic educational software is more effective than modern educational software when it comes to young children - so why not run it on classic Macs and keep them out of the landfill?
OT hijacking over - adios amigos. :beige:
I never said its cruel, now your putting words in my mouth, and whatever the educational software out there today is just as much crap as it was back when, your just bias because YOU grew up on that stuff
I sure would not give a kid a //e and math blaster thinking its some great community service that helps us both
sure they do, I have a guy at work that graduated in 2007, he didnt even know what the start menu was, just got an email address 2 months ago, and made his first ever online purchase yesterday
now are you saying if I had given him a SE 10 years ago he would be better off? probably not, If I had given him a windows 95/98 machine 10 years ago, maybe
Calm down Osgeld. I'm not putting words into your mouth - I'm using a synonym. Look into it.
do you have a point?
almost mean != cruel I dont care how you think your spinning it :-*
almost mean != cruel I dont care how you think your spinning it :-*
Place your Mac in a 15 gallon pot and cover with water. Add a pound of sugar and bring to the boil. Simmer and ...
... ohwait.
... ohwait.
I'm going to have to agree with Osgeld on this matter. I can understand why some of you think that 68k and old PPC Macs are still useful today. Yes they still boot and run their software well, and it seems like a working computer should still fit someone's needs just fine. However, giving someone a 68k or old PPC Mac is not the same as giving someone an old car or TV that still works. The tasks that we use computers for today have changed far too much to make something from say 1994 worthwhile. Lets be honest here guys, classic Macs are literally useless these days. Before you jump on me with things like, "But you can still use Word, Excel, and Netscape 4 on them!!!" really think about it. The internet has become the single most important "application" for almost every computer user today. How long do you really spend on your computer that isn't in some way online? If you're anything like me, without an internet connection, I don't really have much use for my Mac. Right now people need computers that are fully internet capable (and when I say that, I mean running a modern browser on a modern OS). Thats why I think if you are giving/selling somebody a Mac for them to really use, it should be at least 800MHz and running Tiger. Its 2010 now, and G3 iMacs & early G4 towers cost the same as 25MHz 040 systems to most everyone. 68k systems are fun hobbies, but don't confuse functioning with usefulness.
For any disadvantaged kid any computer is better than no computer at all.
I know when I got my first outdated system (a grayscale 286/16 at the beginning of the Pentium era) as a kid I was f***ing thrilled! I ran that sucker until it literally gave out.
I know when I got my first outdated system (a grayscale 286/16 at the beginning of the Pentium era) as a kid I was f***ing thrilled! I ran that sucker until it literally gave out.
Agreed. We only give 68k/early PPC Macs as educational tools after a professional educational-needs assessment along with a customized package of software to address those identified needs. We offer 500 MHz iMac G3s, Power Mac G4's and eMac 1.25s for everyday use, all for free. :b&w:
I apologize to the original poster for leading the thread astray, because it's actually a good topic.
The point is a P3 1Ghz or early P4 PC is worthless today but usable, an old 68k or pre g4 PPC is just useless. There are plenty of usable but discarded 5 year old computers out there that giving somebody a 10+ year old unsupported relic is not a good idea. it is getting to the point where you can get a new system for a few hundred with a warrenty.
I think educational software in general is crap and has always been that way.
I think educational software in general is crap and has always been that way.
I actually think that, objectively speaking, it seems pretty silly to go around using a machine running a multi-user OS designed for a server environment and capable of doing maybe a hundred thousand times more than anyone ever asks of it, rather than an appliance that just does its thing. What I think is even more silly is that we pay hundreds or thousands for these multi-user über-machines and then in a year or two, regard them as morbidly redundant. Would you do that with a good saw? a washing machine? a book? a classic wooden boat?
Alas, the world does not agree (being pretty stupid, on the whole), and thus like everyone else here, I have little choice in the matter. The chief illustration of that fact can be the observation that here we are on this forum, which is a PITA to access using many of the machines we converse about with such enthusiasm. As much as one might regret it, in short, families and schoolchildren these days can't actually do without the web for many and even most purposes, which has the unavoidable implication that any 68k or early PPC machine is a poor substitute for a more recent computer that can actually do the web-based things people need them to do.
Where connectivity is the name of the game, in other words, and where the rules of the game are in constant (and perhaps deliberate) flux, machines that cannot make connections because they can't play by the rules are pretty much curiosities. Call it what you will — a mistake, a shame, progress, a money-making racket, whatever — it is just how it is. And until users change the game being played, perhaps by government regulation out of disgust at the mountains of e-waste (which it is in more ways than one) being generated, it will continue that way.
Alas, the world does not agree (being pretty stupid, on the whole), and thus like everyone else here, I have little choice in the matter. The chief illustration of that fact can be the observation that here we are on this forum, which is a PITA to access using many of the machines we converse about with such enthusiasm. As much as one might regret it, in short, families and schoolchildren these days can't actually do without the web for many and even most purposes, which has the unavoidable implication that any 68k or early PPC machine is a poor substitute for a more recent computer that can actually do the web-based things people need them to do.
Where connectivity is the name of the game, in other words, and where the rules of the game are in constant (and perhaps deliberate) flux, machines that cannot make connections because they can't play by the rules are pretty much curiosities. Call it what you will — a mistake, a shame, progress, a money-making racket, whatever — it is just how it is. And until users change the game being played, perhaps by government regulation out of disgust at the mountains of e-waste (which it is in more ways than one) being generated, it will continue that way.
I personally do believe there's something to be said for giving a kid a massively obsolete computer of their own to muck with if the kid shows some interest in seriously engaging with "computers", something they can experiment with/take apart/break/repair without dire consequences. However, I do say that with the asterisk that the machines that qualify as the best computer learning tools are the ones *least like Macintoshes*.
The most educational machines I ever owned were a pair of TRS-80 Model I's I bought at a garage sale. They were a bizarre combination of a surprisingly engaging user interface and DOS (much friendlier than MS-DOS or CP/M in many respects) and *really hackish* (or, as Apple would paint it, "minimalistic and elegant") hardware. In addition to the casual machine-language futzing I hit those machines with the soldering iron, pressed together cables with vice grips, interfaced them to hardware stolen from more modern machines, and all of these things were surprisingly easy because the Model I hardware was so simple and forgiving yet, believe it or not, "standards compliant". (Much hardware harvested from an IBM PC works in a TRS-80 with little or no work.) Those machines were weird enough to be compelling yet simple enough to *fully understand*. Undoubtedly everyone around my age has some 8-bit wonder that they could similarly wax poetically about. Those machines taught you to about *computers* simply from using them. You had it shoved down your throat, and if you had the temper for it you enjoyed it.
The problem with an old Macintosh is it's *not* going to do the same thing unless you really force it. It's designed to be an appliance that runs applications. Using it will teach you what it takes to use the particular applications you run, IE, the syntax trivia and mouse motor memory it takes to type a letter or click a Stickybear. It won't (as a consequence of its arcane primitiveness) accidentally teach you how a computer *works*, and an "application oriented" person who doesn't want to learn a computer is going to be put off when they discover that they can't run the applications that the "application-using world" expects them to be able to run. ("What, you can't open that .doc file I sent you?" "Why aren't you on Facebook... your computer can't load it? Lame.") And to top it off, what hard-computer skills someone *does* learn from mucking with an old Mac won't translate well to anything else. ("Uhm, rebuild your desktop? You don't have to do that?" "Where's the popup to allocate memory to Netscape in OS X? There isn't one?" "Wait, your computer *doesn't* crash half the time when you switch from your web browser to your email program while a page is loading? I gave up even trying to do that on mine...") There just isn't the push to take it to "the next level" with a Macintosh... indeed, outside of things like Hypercard the learning curve for programming the Classic MacOS is one of the steepest ones there is. As for hardware hacking Macintosh-compatible (68k-early PPC-vintage) hardware is rare and getting rarer. Heck, nearly every plug on a beige Macintosh besides Ethernet is *completely* absent from modern systems. It's still fairly trivial to maintain a 15 year old PC even if you're limited to going to "Fry's" or another Big Box retailer (Although the "why bother?" question comes up) but a similar age Mac? Not so much. It gets better of course once you break the "iMac threshold", but if you're above that line you should be running OS X if you possibly can, thus making for a different discussion. Then it's no longer an "Ancient Mac", it's just an annoyingly slow and crufty "modern" one.
It just really doesn't seem worth sticking the "needy" with a 68k/early PPC when, as stated, a decent caliber Pentium III or 4 is just as "cheap"... arguably cheaper since a machine like that will easily run a modern Linux distribution with all-free apps while the Mac will almost certainly require at least some software that is either purchased or... scrounged (read "pirated"?). The Pentium III+ will give someone a decent Internet experience *and* at the same time be more accessible for hardware hackery... despite being newer it's actually more "disposable". Seems like a no-brainer to me. If you really want them to run Stickybear slap BasiliskII or SheepShaver on it, it'll run it faster than the real thing.
Anyway... Bleah. :^b
The most educational machines I ever owned were a pair of TRS-80 Model I's I bought at a garage sale. They were a bizarre combination of a surprisingly engaging user interface and DOS (much friendlier than MS-DOS or CP/M in many respects) and *really hackish* (or, as Apple would paint it, "minimalistic and elegant") hardware. In addition to the casual machine-language futzing I hit those machines with the soldering iron, pressed together cables with vice grips, interfaced them to hardware stolen from more modern machines, and all of these things were surprisingly easy because the Model I hardware was so simple and forgiving yet, believe it or not, "standards compliant". (Much hardware harvested from an IBM PC works in a TRS-80 with little or no work.) Those machines were weird enough to be compelling yet simple enough to *fully understand*. Undoubtedly everyone around my age has some 8-bit wonder that they could similarly wax poetically about. Those machines taught you to about *computers* simply from using them. You had it shoved down your throat, and if you had the temper for it you enjoyed it.
The problem with an old Macintosh is it's *not* going to do the same thing unless you really force it. It's designed to be an appliance that runs applications. Using it will teach you what it takes to use the particular applications you run, IE, the syntax trivia and mouse motor memory it takes to type a letter or click a Stickybear. It won't (as a consequence of its arcane primitiveness) accidentally teach you how a computer *works*, and an "application oriented" person who doesn't want to learn a computer is going to be put off when they discover that they can't run the applications that the "application-using world" expects them to be able to run. ("What, you can't open that .doc file I sent you?" "Why aren't you on Facebook... your computer can't load it? Lame.") And to top it off, what hard-computer skills someone *does* learn from mucking with an old Mac won't translate well to anything else. ("Uhm, rebuild your desktop? You don't have to do that?" "Where's the popup to allocate memory to Netscape in OS X? There isn't one?" "Wait, your computer *doesn't* crash half the time when you switch from your web browser to your email program while a page is loading? I gave up even trying to do that on mine...") There just isn't the push to take it to "the next level" with a Macintosh... indeed, outside of things like Hypercard the learning curve for programming the Classic MacOS is one of the steepest ones there is. As for hardware hacking Macintosh-compatible (68k-early PPC-vintage) hardware is rare and getting rarer. Heck, nearly every plug on a beige Macintosh besides Ethernet is *completely* absent from modern systems. It's still fairly trivial to maintain a 15 year old PC even if you're limited to going to "Fry's" or another Big Box retailer (Although the "why bother?" question comes up) but a similar age Mac? Not so much. It gets better of course once you break the "iMac threshold", but if you're above that line you should be running OS X if you possibly can, thus making for a different discussion. Then it's no longer an "Ancient Mac", it's just an annoyingly slow and crufty "modern" one.
It just really doesn't seem worth sticking the "needy" with a 68k/early PPC when, as stated, a decent caliber Pentium III or 4 is just as "cheap"... arguably cheaper since a machine like that will easily run a modern Linux distribution with all-free apps while the Mac will almost certainly require at least some software that is either purchased or... scrounged (read "pirated"?). The Pentium III+ will give someone a decent Internet experience *and* at the same time be more accessible for hardware hackery... despite being newer it's actually more "disposable". Seems like a no-brainer to me. If you really want them to run Stickybear slap BasiliskII or SheepShaver on it, it'll run it faster than the real thing.
Anyway... Bleah. :^b
Okay. I guess I opened a big can of worms on my last post. Judging by the amount of responses generated since then.
Basically, I don't see it as cruel or punishing to give people of low-income a Mac that may very well be way out of date. And I am under the knowledge that eventually these retro Macs will be handed down to the next individual when that time comes and continue that cycle. I am hoping that these machines will help teach everyone young and old how to type, to use a computer and to learn more topics through other software. For me, neither I nor my parents had the money to buy a computer, since they were still way too expensive. When the time came that a teacher wanted to get rid of one for free, I gladly accepted it. It may have been outdated, a DOS , Windows 3.x or C64 type machine, but I didn't care; it was a computer, nonetheless.
The software may be decades old, but the content and teaching tools are still valid. Math Blaster still teaches kids numbers and math, Reader Rabbit will still teach someone how to read and HyperCard will put basic programming ideas into the hands of those who want that type of career in life.
I guess I've said all I can for now. I'll leave the rest for you to think over and discuss.
73 de Phreakout. :rambo:
PS: Read "Silicon Snake Oil: Second Thoughts About The Information Superhighway" and "High-Tech Heretic: Why Computers Don't Belong in Schools" by Clifford Stoll. They may appear anti-technology at first, but he did a d-mn good job at pointing out the goods and bad, while saying that it is up to us for making the final decisions that effect our future.
Basically, I don't see it as cruel or punishing to give people of low-income a Mac that may very well be way out of date. And I am under the knowledge that eventually these retro Macs will be handed down to the next individual when that time comes and continue that cycle. I am hoping that these machines will help teach everyone young and old how to type, to use a computer and to learn more topics through other software. For me, neither I nor my parents had the money to buy a computer, since they were still way too expensive. When the time came that a teacher wanted to get rid of one for free, I gladly accepted it. It may have been outdated, a DOS , Windows 3.x or C64 type machine, but I didn't care; it was a computer, nonetheless.
The software may be decades old, but the content and teaching tools are still valid. Math Blaster still teaches kids numbers and math, Reader Rabbit will still teach someone how to read and HyperCard will put basic programming ideas into the hands of those who want that type of career in life.
I guess I've said all I can for now. I'll leave the rest for you to think over and discuss.
73 de Phreakout. :rambo:
PS: Read "Silicon Snake Oil: Second Thoughts About The Information Superhighway" and "High-Tech Heretic: Why Computers Don't Belong in Schools" by Clifford Stoll. They may appear anti-technology at first, but he did a d-mn good job at pointing out the goods and bad, while saying that it is up to us for making the final decisions that effect our future.
I was in Kindergarten in 1995, about the time I began to learn about programming from my kid's V-Tech laptop that came with a version of BASIC. My uncle gave me an old 286 laptop that booted DOS and QBASIC off of a floppy, and this was at a time when Windows 95 was out and on our home computer. I also had a lot of exposure to 68K Macs at school and fell in love with them.
Computer skills are computer skills. If you threw me an operating system I'd never used before, I could figure it out. I understand how a mouse works and the basics of a computer from using them all my life. If the kid learns how to launch programs, save files, and check his email through a 68K or PPC Mac, they can easily figure out how on a newer platform since it's still the same concept. It's just OS X dock vs opening the folder and double clicking the icon.
Computer skills are computer skills. If you threw me an operating system I'd never used before, I could figure it out. I understand how a mouse works and the basics of a computer from using them all my life. If the kid learns how to launch programs, save files, and check his email through a 68K or PPC Mac, they can easily figure out how on a newer platform since it's still the same concept. It's just OS X dock vs opening the folder and double clicking the icon.
There are clearly situations where an old Mac is still an excellent thing to give to somebody, but they are few and far between.
The trouble is that kids and families are generally not aware of such niche uses, haven't the room for a machine that can do them, or have the standard prejudice that new technology is always best. That's what the culture teaches them. But most of all, they want the web (my teen-aged kids, for example, don't know their friends' phone numbers, such is the ubiquity of FaceBook), and that is the real limiting factor.
- There is first of all the collector/ tinkerer who will genuinely enjoy the thing (and most likely join the 68kmla).
Three years ago, I gave a PowerBook 540c to a mentally handicapped adult, installed At Ease with some simple games, and it is still being used more or less daily. He has some friends like himself who have asked where to buy the machine and the games, because of course they can't find anything like them in the shops. Where else could you find such ease of use than on an old Mac, prior to OSX?
Just today at work I used Acrobat 5 in System 9 on a Pismo to do something that, as far as I know, otherwise could not have been done without actually buying a current version of Acrobat; the price I paid for version 5 at a Garage Sale sure beats the price of it new. Thus the Pismo+OS9.2+Acrobat 5 handily outperformed the high-end Intel iMac on my office desk for usefulness.
The trouble is that kids and families are generally not aware of such niche uses, haven't the room for a machine that can do them, or have the standard prejudice that new technology is always best. That's what the culture teaches them. But most of all, they want the web (my teen-aged kids, for example, don't know their friends' phone numbers, such is the ubiquity of FaceBook), and that is the real limiting factor.
Glad to see there's healthy opposition to these trends..
You said it ...
... despite this topic going way off track of what I intended ...
... but that's exactly why I keep my Pismo around, because I don't feel the need to pony up yet more money to run the latest greatest version of software which predecessor runs just fine on my G3 Pismo, yet is crippled under Snow Leopard.
Computers are a function of need. For years after the Mac SE was truly productive, A friend was able to use it to develop some FIleMaker software which he then took into work and installed under Windows '98 and OS 8 where it ran flawlessly over a network. The fact is, if you need a way to type papers, reports, novels, ideas, manage accounting, inventory possessions, and a host of other things even the original 128K Mac can handle, a 90s era 68K Mac will handle that task just fine. I do believe that it is unrealistic to expect a 68K Mac to substitute in any way for the purposes a computer built in the last 5 years was. The good news is, there are ways around this, a $99 smart phone for instance, or the computer at work – which comes with full IT support as well. But having a computer of any kind at home that makes a task not otherwise possible, is important no matter its limitations. That cannot be underestimated. If the end user is made aware of its limitations, the Mac's software is far easier to use for specific tasks than a PC of the same era.
Now, to get back on track ... my concern was that I have a pristine 128K Mac, which I'd like to keep that way, so daily use and tinkering is out. But I also don't want it to fester away somewhere and ultimately become non-functional. I've often wondered, if a brand new, never opened 128K was discovered in a cool dry basement somewhere, whether it would work perfectly once un-boxed and turned on. And even if it did, how long it would operate flawlessly. At the end of the day this is a fantasy and most of the units we come across will have endured some hard use during their lives and must be treated accordingly. But some are in better shape than others, and those should not be further subjected to deterioration if at all possible. So what's the best way to preserve them? Is limited use truly better than routine use and maintenance? Or will such on again off again use actually cause more damage? Unlike a car analogy as alluded to above, there are not that many mechanical parts or fluids to settle in and cause major damage and mechanical failure between use. Alternately, I have often heard that TVs in bars lasted longer than home televisions because they were on all the time, the electronics in their happiest state: on, not constantly going from cold to warm.
the cold to warm is something to think about, especially on systems where the solder may already be fragile, but even that is kind of an extreme, is your house really really cold, does a mac instantly heat up? yes over time it can have effect, but unless there is a design flaw in the machine (early apple ///) this should be well within tolerances
bout the only thing your saving IMO by not using a machine is its exposure to the outside world, course we know of the damages that can happen to the case plastics, but also in terms of power spikes or even "dirty" power which of course hammers the capacitors (which can be somewhat restricted by the use of a really good surge suppressor or ups)
the tv's in bars thing does hold some truth keeping in mind any tv made past the 1980's is mostly empty and heat is not a major issue (it defiantly would be in old analog n tube systems), but it also burns out the crt the quickest
bout the only thing your saving IMO by not using a machine is its exposure to the outside world, course we know of the damages that can happen to the case plastics, but also in terms of power spikes or even "dirty" power which of course hammers the capacitors (which can be somewhat restricted by the use of a really good surge suppressor or ups)
the tv's in bars thing does hold some truth keeping in mind any tv made past the 1980's is mostly empty and heat is not a major issue (it defiantly would be in old analog n tube systems), but it also burns out the crt the quickest
What happens when the brightness knob is turned all the way down? Would that prolong the life of the CRT?
The way you describe it, I should set my 128K Mac up in a vacuum sealed room similar to the CIA computer room in Mission Impossible. A protected and regulated power source, temperature and humidity controlled, with HEPA filtered air, UV light filters and possibly minimal O2 mixture to inhibit the oxidation of the plastic compounds.
you wont be able to use it
but yes it may prolong the crt visually, on a monochrome screen I dont think it is as big of a deal cause the pixels are so much larger physically vs a 3 color per pixel screen (course monochrome screens tend to burn in easier too)Ideally yes, that is why they make those kind's of rooms (although MI's is a movie exaggeration) but its not realistic ,
but you can also sorta mimic some of the attributes of a CIA room, temp is generally easy in a residence, humidity can be handled with a k-mart machine, and filtered power can come from a good solid surge suppressor (often the big ones have big caps) or a battery backup
Is it really necessary? that depends on your end goal
me, its a 2$ power strip and a good dusting on the inside every once in a while
or... think of it this way, if your using it, when (lets say) a cap or battery craps out, least it doesnt have years or even decades to eat into the board