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Enlighten me: SE/30 PDS slot?

Enlighten me: SE/30 PDS slot? Hardware 33 posts Oct 13, 2010 — Dec 11, 2010
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#1 Wed, 13 Oct 2010 - 00:47
So I've just come into possession of a Mac SE/30 :b&w: Having a thing for the old compact Macs, and this being the best of the bunch, I'd like to try and get it all clean and beef it up a bit (ideally, I'd like to run Linux/m68k on it, just for fun.) However, I'm slightly confused by this whole PDS thing. It looks, from Wikipedia, like the PDS slot exists in a number of mostly mutually-incompatible versions? One reference I looked at suggests that the SE/30 and IIsi share a PDS version, but another section implies that a later LC version is backwards-compatible with an earlier version, so there is some degree of cross-compatiblity? I'm confused. Which kind(s) of PDS cards will work with my SE/30 - and specifically, which Ethernet cards?

#2 Wed, 13 Oct 2010 - 01:01
Most of the SE/30 cards are vertical due to the layout of the motherboard and case. Someone else, I'm sure, can give you details, but you won't be looking at LC PDS cards and thinking they could go in an SE/30.

Regarding m68k GNU/Linux, please do let us know how far you get with it. The last time I checked the state of Debian on m68k was pretty poor due to a lack of up to date toolchain parts. If they ever do get things worked out, I'd love to give it a go.

#3 Wed, 13 Oct 2010 - 02:39
The LC compatibility issue is related to later LCs. When the LCIII came out, an LCIII PDS was introduced with extra pins. However, the LCIII and later models with the LCIII PDS can use original LC/LCII cards.

The SE/30 PDS is unique and works only on the SE/30.

For the record, a list of PDS types:

-SE/SE SuperDrive (works only in these models)

-SE/30 (works only in this model)

-IIsi (works only in this model; IIsi PDS can be adapted to accept NuBus)

-Classic II (works only in this model; does not allow for external connectivity and usually used for 68882 card)

-LC/LCII (works in any LC series machine including Performa variants and the Color Classic)

-LCIII and later (works only in LC series machines with this style of PDS)

#4 Wed, 13 Oct 2010 - 07:04
Okay, got it home from the recycle center and plugged in. I know it has a hard drive installed, since I can see the activity light flashing and hear the disk rattle to life on bootup, and it attempts to boot from the drive, but can't actually boot; I get the question-mark disk icon. No big deal, I have install disks. The problem is, when I boot from floppies into System 6 or 7.5, it doesn't display a partition and can't find a valid SCSI device in Hard Disk SC Setup. Is there a way to figure out what's wrong, short of tracking down an ultra-long Torx screwdriver and opening the case for a look?

#6 Wed, 13 Oct 2010 - 08:59
The SE/30 PDS is unique and works only on the SE/30.
Click to expand...
The IIsi PDS slot is identical *, the difference is in the orientation and clearance of added PDS cards within the case. Some cards will fit both machines and some will not. This is the only compatibility the SE/30 PDS shares with any other Mac.

* See below for small correction

#7 Wed, 13 Oct 2010 - 17:00
No luck with the patched version, either. I think I might just have to shell out for a long-shank Torx bit...

#8 Wed, 13 Oct 2010 - 20:20
In the meantime, shove SCSI Probe onto one of your boot floppies and see what it reports about the hard disk. If it only reports the host controller, you'll know that your disk is dead.

#9 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 - 05:48
Hmm. Version 5.2 is the version of SCSI Probe I can find, but it claims to require SCSI Manager 4.3, and I'm just about out of space on the disk tools floppy. Is there an earlier version that doesn't require it? Where could I find that?

#10 Thu, 14 Oct 2010 - 21:50
SCSI Probe:

Version 5.2 -- requires Mac OS 7.x or higher (final version?). Requires SCSI Manager 4.3

Version 4.3 -- supports multiple SCSI buses, some conflicts with System 7.5. Works with System 6 and 7.

Version 3.5 -- first version that works with SCSI Manager 4.3.

#11 Sat, 16 Oct 2010 - 23:09
You could try Lido, although I'm not sure how large it is or what OS it needs to run. It's never failed me with third party SCSI drives.

#12 Sun, 17 Oct 2010 - 05:00
Looks like it's a System 7 app, so I'll give it a try and see what happens. I finally broke down and purchased an extra-extra-long shank Torx bit, so I should be able to open the computer up for a look in the near future.

#13 Mon, 25 Oct 2010 - 17:51
Okay, after obtaining the mother of all Torx screwdrivers (18" blade! Longer than the computer is deep!) since I couldn't find a more appropriately-sized one for cheaper, I opened up my SE/30. Tried replacing the hard drive with the one from my IIsi, and it booted halfway before complaining that it didn't have the right system software, so it looks like the hard drive is indeed the problem. Which is okay, since it's only a 40MB drive and I was wanting to put something a little bigger in anyway.

One other question: the sound is very faint or entirely silent, even when I turn the volume up all the way via control panel, even when using headphones. Any idea what the cause of this would be?

#14 Mon, 25 Oct 2010 - 19:35
Bad capacitors in the audio section.

#15 Mon, 25 Oct 2010 - 20:05
Ah, that'll be interesting to address. Wonder if I can get a replacement analog board for cheap...

#16 Mon, 25 Oct 2010 - 20:26
Just recap the main board to fix the sound, I did both of my SE/30's.

#17 Mon, 25 Oct 2010 - 20:55
Yeah, I suppose. Never re-capped anything before, but there's a first time for everything...

#19 Thu, 4 Nov 2010 - 16:20
Well, I have obtained a new hard drive for use with the SE/30. Unfortunately, that means more contending with the vagaries of SCSI configuration. Here's how it's sitting at the moment. The drive I bought is an IBM 92F0428 1GB drive (looks from what I can find like this is just a re-branded Maxtor.) Going by the label on the drive, there are five valid jumper positions: three for ID, one for termination, and one labeled "M" that I have no idea what it does (can't find any documentation for the drive, either.) When I hook it into my SE/30, HD SC Setup gives me the same spiel about being unable to find a hard drive, and I can't get Lido on the SE/30, since it requires System 6.0.4 or later and I only have 6.0.2 and 7.5, which won't let me eject the boot floppy.

I've also tried connecting the drive to my IIsi via an external enclosure (after changing the ID number;) however, this seems to drive it various forms of batty. If I leave the external enclosure off, I can boot the IIsi and get Lido loaded; however, as soon as I power it on and re-scan the bus, it freezes.

Can anybody help me figure out what to do here? I'm completely at a loss.

#20 Sat, 6 Nov 2010 - 00:28
That IBM drive model number is suspicious. I can't dig up anything on it, so you need to determine the drive type from other info on the drive label.

Have a look at the drive label atop my 4.5GB IBM SCSI drive to see how I identified mine:




Now have a look at your drive's label again and verify if your drive is in this list (Hitachi now owns rights to those old IBM drives):

http://web.archive.org/web/20070128205753/http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/CBD730A1B7F8CA4586256D5000676A7E/$file/Quick_Spec_2005-03-07.pdf

#21 Mon, 8 Nov 2010 - 02:50
Well, I'm afraid that datasheet has me completely lost. I know pretty much nothing about reading this stuff, but here's the various bar codes/ID strings on the drive:

L1 B3B 192222

FRU PN 92F0428

EC895987

PN45G9490

E150455 LR34074 R9371775

SN 13 192222 S3

ESP2242411 FSP45G9883

EC 895964 4.0

Type 0662

Does any of this clear anything up?

#22 Mon, 8 Nov 2010 - 03:04
Sorry, commodore, but I am completely lost by that data. And since I could not dig anything up on the original drive number (model no.?) that you provided, I cannot find out any descriptions for the individual jumper settings.

#23 Mon, 8 Nov 2010 - 04:36
Bummer. The only one I'm really confused by is "M," but the bigger question is what the Macs are looking for that the drive isn't giving them, which I don't understand at all.

#24 Mon, 8 Nov 2010 - 05:51
So you're saying that it doesn't freeze the Mac if you install it internally with termination on and SCSI ID 0, but it does freeze externally?

Do all versions of HDSC setup work with all drives or should we have Commodore put it back internally and try a different version that will see it? I am getting confused by the hackable Apple CD/DVD driver so I need some verification.

#25 Mon, 8 Nov 2010 - 16:09
Not 100% sure on that. When I install internally in the SE/30 with termination on and SCSI ID 0, it doesn't freeze, but HD SC Setup (patched version) fails to recognize it. When I install it in the external case and use it with the IIsi, it freezes the computer on boot unless I boot with it off, then freezes the computer when I turn it on. I haven't tried it internally in the IIsi or externally with the SE/30, though I suppose that might be worth a shot...

#26 Wed, 10 Nov 2010 - 21:33
Well, I'm afraid that datasheet has me completely lost. I know pretty much nothing about reading this stuff, but here's the various bar codes/ID strings on the drive:
L1 B3B 192222

FRU PN 92F0428

EC895987

PN45G9490

E150455 LR34074 R9371775

SN 13 192222 S3

ESP2242411 FSP45G9883

EC 895964 4.0

Type 0662

Does any of this clear anything up?
Click to expand...
Can you post a picture of the drive? Something about those numbers rings a bell. Are you sure it's a 1 GB drive and not a 2 GB drive? IBM sold an odd ball 2 GB drive which showed up in a lot surplus type places for a while, which did not fit in their normal part numbering scheme. My memory says it was a 0664 instead of 0662 but how accurate is that memory likely to be? Anyway, the thing had a sort of frame around it instead of the solid cases we're used to now and was half-height 1.65" tall.

The thing about this line of drives is that there's no termination jumper. IBM shipped the drives with a pass-through terminator one could put on the ribbon cable at the drive connector, but those terminators all got lost by the time the drives showed up on teh surplus market.

Anyway, I have not read the whole thread, but I expect you have a termination issue. Folks might to attack it from that angle.

#27 Wed, 10 Nov 2010 - 21:52
Well, it was advertised as a 1GB drive, but I'll take a picture this weekend. If it doesn't have a termination jumper, it's certainly labeled like it does...

#29 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 - 05:14
Well, the 50-pin jumper block detailed in there does look like the SMP variant described there. It's currently configured as device 4 with auto-start and active termination enabled; any ideas on what it should be set to, either in the SE/30 or as an external device for the IIsi?

#30 Thu, 11 Nov 2010 - 07:24
Just a guess...if you have that "Bottom Options Jumper Block for SMP Versions", try three jumpers to disable TI Sync Negotiations, disable SCSI parity, and disable Unit Attentions.

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