Thread
PowerBook G3 Wallstreet PDQ RAM Compatibility
I recently purchased a PB G3 PDQ 266MHz for $15 (plus shipping). It was a nice find that I intend to use as a link machine between an old Mac 512k and modern OS X Lion Macs, as described in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16849&p=159095#p157775
But of course, that will not the exclusive use for my new Wallstreet, so I am mulling upgrades for it so it can better serve me in other applications too. One upgrade of course is to max out the RAM. I have heard that 512MB will work, however, there is some doubt in my mind as to what is and is not compatible. Some say that the RAM would have to be single-sided (i.e., chips on only 1 side of the board, not both sides), otherwise the PB G3 would only use half of the RAM (i.e., use only 64MB of a 128MB 2-sided stick of RAM). Is this true? What is your experience? And do you have a brand and model number that you could direct me to?
Also, I have the opportunity to purchase a 500MHz G3 accelerator for my new Wallstreet, which would make it abundantly more usable that its stock 266MHz speed. I noticed that OWC sells 256MB RAM sticks that they say are compatible with the Wallstreet:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/100SO256168L/
Being unsure if they would work with the 500MHz upgrade I've been mulling, I wrote to OWC. I thought they might have the answers I needed in light of the fact that OWC once sold the 500MHz G3 accelerator I have the opportunity to buy. Dave from OWC offered me the following reply:
..."we believe the [500MHz upgrade] board requires single-sided RAM chips, which OWC's variety does not comply with. Like I mentioned earlier, that does not mean they will not work - we just don't believe they will. This portion of your upgrade should be relatively painless though - the sticks are relatively inexpensive, and come with a 30 day money back guarantee from OWC, if they do not work. So worst case scenario is you pay shipping there and back to test them."
My main problem is that I live in Japan, so the time and cost of shipping works against me to "experiment" with things like this. Hence, I am posting here in hopes of finding out more from those of you who have experience. I especially would love to hear from you Wallstreet owners who also have a G3 accelerator inside your Wallstreet, as they would tell me the exact RAM I need (assuming you have 512MB total in your machine).
I look forward to reading your thoughts and experiences.
Thank you.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16849&p=159095#p157775
But of course, that will not the exclusive use for my new Wallstreet, so I am mulling upgrades for it so it can better serve me in other applications too. One upgrade of course is to max out the RAM. I have heard that 512MB will work, however, there is some doubt in my mind as to what is and is not compatible. Some say that the RAM would have to be single-sided (i.e., chips on only 1 side of the board, not both sides), otherwise the PB G3 would only use half of the RAM (i.e., use only 64MB of a 128MB 2-sided stick of RAM). Is this true? What is your experience? And do you have a brand and model number that you could direct me to?
Also, I have the opportunity to purchase a 500MHz G3 accelerator for my new Wallstreet, which would make it abundantly more usable that its stock 266MHz speed. I noticed that OWC sells 256MB RAM sticks that they say are compatible with the Wallstreet:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/100SO256168L/
Being unsure if they would work with the 500MHz upgrade I've been mulling, I wrote to OWC. I thought they might have the answers I needed in light of the fact that OWC once sold the 500MHz G3 accelerator I have the opportunity to buy. Dave from OWC offered me the following reply:
..."we believe the [500MHz upgrade] board requires single-sided RAM chips, which OWC's variety does not comply with. Like I mentioned earlier, that does not mean they will not work - we just don't believe they will. This portion of your upgrade should be relatively painless though - the sticks are relatively inexpensive, and come with a 30 day money back guarantee from OWC, if they do not work. So worst case scenario is you pay shipping there and back to test them."
My main problem is that I live in Japan, so the time and cost of shipping works against me to "experiment" with things like this. Hence, I am posting here in hopes of finding out more from those of you who have experience. I especially would love to hear from you Wallstreet owners who also have a G3 accelerator inside your Wallstreet, as they would tell me the exact RAM I need (assuming you have 512MB total in your machine).
I look forward to reading your thoughts and experiences.
Thank you.
So that would be a "PowerLogix Blue Chip G3 500" or a "Sonnet Crescendo/WS G3 500"?
One nice thing about the WS's & choosing CPU upgrades is that you don't have to choose between fast G3 and not-as-fast G4. The G3 & G4 upgrades both top at 500MHz, making the G4, if available, the easy winner. btw - If you come across a G4 WS upgrade.. Let me know!!!
As for the RAM issue:
The bus runs at 83 or 66. Even the 66MHz ones came with (I think) PC100 RAM. The bus can only be cranked so high by an accelerator before things go awry. Either way, I'd guess at best it is 100 Bus at 5x Multiplier. PC 100 would work. Go with 133, and you can be sure your bases are covered. As for the type, I'm not sure. I've heard the term "Low-Density", but idk exactly what that means. (I believe it is a greater # of smaller chips, but I'm not sure. :?: ) I'm glad you posted this as I still need to max my WS's RAM, and the input will be helpful.
EDIT- Forgot, Allegro also had their "Super Cool" G3 500.
Thanks for your reply, theos911. The upgrade I have been considering the purchase of is the Sonnet 500MHz G3. I've not considered a G4 as seriously as a G3 upgrade because I am happy to stick with OS 8 and OS 9 on the Wallstreet (no need for OS X on such an old machine). The G4 is more suited for OS X, as discussed here:
http://lowendmac.com/misc/03/1020.html
I too have been searching for the ALLEGRO. In fact, I wrote an email to Wegener Media, who once were distributors of the ALLEGRO. They even have the ALLEGRO web page still up here:
http://www.wegenermedia.com/wllst500.htm
That web page said they stopped selling the ALLEGRO due to "issues on the Motorola chipset." Confused by that, I inquired further with them. Dave (at Wegener Media) wrote me the following reply:
Anyway, getting back to the topic of this thread...
I thought that a PC133 SODIMM would do it, but I didn't know about the "2-sided" part. If any of you would happen to have single sided RAM in the 256MB size, and PC133 speed, I may be interested in buying it from you.
Also, this web page seems to indicate that there is no such thing as a single-sided 256MB "low density" SODIMM:
http://www.allmemoryupgrades.com/pc133sodimm.html
http://lowendmac.com/misc/03/1020.html
I too have been searching for the ALLEGRO. In fact, I wrote an email to Wegener Media, who once were distributors of the ALLEGRO. They even have the ALLEGRO web page still up here:
http://www.wegenermedia.com/wllst500.htm
That web page said they stopped selling the ALLEGRO due to "issues on the Motorola chipset." Confused by that, I inquired further with them. Dave (at Wegener Media) wrote me the following reply:
Of course, his reply only resulted in more questions in my mind. For truly, the G3's used in these upgrade cards were of a newer, lower power lot than the older version G3s that Apple used. And that is precisely why the ALLEGRO ran cooler than the stock CPU (or so the LEM article says). Therefore, I don't see why the Allegro would put more strain on the PMU than the stock CPU! But I didn't inquire further with Dave about that to know for sure.
Anyway, getting back to the topic of this thread...
I thought that a PC133 SODIMM would do it, but I didn't know about the "2-sided" part. If any of you would happen to have single sided RAM in the 256MB size, and PC133 speed, I may be interested in buying it from you.
Also, this web page seems to indicate that there is no such thing as a single-sided 256MB "low density" SODIMM:
http://www.allmemoryupgrades.com/pc133sodimm.html
Well after a considerable amount of Googling, I have found my answer:
http://www.applefritter.com/node/10169#comment-44810
http://lowendmac.com/pb2/wallstreet-powerbook-g3-i.html
Okay, "almost" found my answer. I now know what will work. But alas, searching for that Kingston part number (KTA-PB100/256) only yields high density SO-DIMMs, not the low density versions shown on Sonny's photos. Any ideas on where I can buy these would be appreciated.
http://www.applefritter.com/node/10169#comment-44810
http://lowendmac.com/pb2/wallstreet-powerbook-g3-i.html
Okay, "almost" found my answer. I now know what will work. But alas, searching for that Kingston part number (KTA-PB100/256) only yields high density SO-DIMMs, not the low density versions shown on Sonny's photos. Any ideas on where I can buy these would be appreciated.
Awesome, that is the easiest to work with. You still need to do the ROM Load & Dump depending on how new/old it is. Luckily, there is no fiddly cache enabling software needed for either 9 or X. One issue is... and it can be a massive issue if you have a 2nd Gen wallstreet: If your upgrade is used, and it got its ROM from a 1st Gen PDQ and it was not one of the ones that came with a ROM from sonnet(Which all came with a R2 ROM IIRC) then there is a chance that is has a 1st. gen ROM loaded, which will not work with the video hardware in a 2nd gen WS. It won't hurt your WS, but you'll have an effectively brick'd upgrade unless Sonnet stil offers the ROM wiping service. On that note, I don't see why we couldn't just find the write enable line and manually do it ourselves, but that is over my head... As far as I know, their ROM dumping utility will not overwrite an older ROM over a newer ROM and more importantly in this case... a Newer over an Older. Hopefully, you won't have this issue.
) Here is a thread about the issue. https://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24079If you can, be sure to get CL2 (2-2-2) RAM. This is the proper CL for the WS.
Hidden in this article behind the obvious stuff is some nice Tech info. http://www.techedgeezine.com/cart_mac_pb1.html
Currently relevant part:
You need Double-sided Low-Density (more than 4 chips per side) for a total of 256MB.
So if you get a compatible 256MB SoDIMM, it needs to be PC-100 SoDIMM with 8 chips per side. Double-Sided 4 chips per side is High-Density.
I have experienced this. I have 4 of these DIMMs but they are all used. I found that the only type of 8 chips total for 256MB I have come across are all high density, so you would only get 128MB. My Pismo will use both high density and low density RAM, but the lombard has the same issue as the PDQ. Required double-sided low-density.
Easy way to tell compatibility if the physical chips are from Hynix/Kingston/major brands, has 16 chips totaled from both sides.
You will notice that 512MB High-Density takes 16 chips on each side and basically puts 256MB Per-side.
Hit ebay and look for 256MB Chips that are PC-100 (!Avoid 133, most 256MB even if both sides are high density if the 256MB is 133Mhz!), use both sides, and have 16 chips total. Easy way. I will look for some chips on ebay and post links
EDIT: This will work for you just fine.
So if you get a compatible 256MB SoDIMM, it needs to be PC-100 SoDIMM with 8 chips per side. Double-Sided 4 chips per side is High-Density.
I have experienced this. I have 4 of these DIMMs but they are all used. I found that the only type of 8 chips total for 256MB I have come across are all high density, so you would only get 128MB. My Pismo will use both high density and low density RAM, but the lombard has the same issue as the PDQ. Required double-sided low-density.
Easy way to tell compatibility if the physical chips are from Hynix/Kingston/major brands, has 16 chips totaled from both sides.
You will notice that 512MB High-Density takes 16 chips on each side and basically puts 256MB Per-side.
Hit ebay and look for 256MB Chips that are PC-100 (!Avoid 133, most 256MB even if both sides are high density if the 256MB is 133Mhz!), use both sides, and have 16 chips total. Easy way. I will look for some chips on ebay and post links
EDIT: This will work for you just fine.
Yes, but it is china.....
Would this work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/256MB-PC100-SODIMM-144-PIN-Low-Density-Laptop-Ram-Memory-SDRAM-1-YEAR-WARRANTY-/280750307123?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415e05b733 The listing even claims compatibility with the PDQ, but I want to ensure.
If so, I'll gladly pay the extra 2$ to get it before Christmas.
Would this work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/256MB-PC100-SODIMM-144-PIN-Low-Density-Laptop-Ram-Memory-SDRAM-1-YEAR-WARRANTY-/280750307123?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415e05b733 The listing even claims compatibility with the PDQ, but I want to ensure.
If so, I'll gladly pay the extra 2$ to get it before Christmas.
Yup. pretty much same thing. Look for major memory chip makers. they usually set the specs for RAM and anytime you see something like Memorex/Kingston/Crucial/Hynix you will 99% of the time be compatible with almost everything.
They were Memorex, so I went ahead and snagged both. Max RAM and my new CF card should give MintPPC a new lease on life. (Once I re-install and remember to use ext4 this time...)
I had been eyeing this Kingston RAM, but it doesn't say anything about CL2 (2-2-2):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110523542421&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123#ht_17312wt_1413
I wrote the seller to confirm.
As to the ROM and VIDEO issues you mentioned, I am not seeing anything about "video problems" in the Sonnet Product FAQ:
http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=364&expand=_a1_a3_a2_b75_b234&action=a1#a1
You'll also note that even though the FAQ and Manual are on that page, there is nothing in the "Firmware" section. Since Sonnet doesn't support this upgrade card anymore (and certainly won't do a ROM upgrade for it), I am not sure if the card is worth the risk. I might be paying for "a brick" as you say.
Well, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Only the very early upgrades needed a ROM dump. The later ones shipped with it. Assuming you do end up with one that needed a dump, there is still only a 50/50 chance it'll be relegated to R1 only. Even then, I'm sure there is SOME WAY to overwrite the ROM. The nice thing being, if the overwrite is a failure, you didn't lose anything.
Only the very early upgrades needed a ROM dump. The later ones shipped with it. Assuming you do end up with one that needed a dump, there is still only a 50/50 chance it'll be relegated to R1 only. Even then, I'm sure there is SOME WAY to overwrite the ROM. The nice thing being, if the overwrite is a failure, you didn't lose anything.
Well, I see I missed out on a good deal for the RAM I needed. But at least there is another auction for the same RAM here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/256MB-PC100-CL2-16x8-144-pin-Sodimm-Laptop-Memory-/230621403706#ht_2998wt_840
But will these fit? On one side of the PowerBook G3's CPU card, sure. But the other side of the CPU card requires a low-profile SO-DIMM. These are only "semi" low-profile.
The serial number of the Sonnet card I have the opportunity to purchase is A2388. According to the Sonnet FAQ, any serial higher than A1950 was built after February 2002. Taking into consideration that the Wallstreet PDQs (the newest and last of the Wallstreets) were discontinued in May 1999, what are your thoughts about this Sonnet card and the ROM? (I don't know how you define "very early upgrades," which is why I ask.)
I don't define very early. Even now, I'm questioning myself. I thought the info about them stopping to need a ROM dump was in the keeping current article. I don't see it there, so, I want to find where I read before I continue to make judgments.
What I recall,but can't find my source any longer: Was at some point they had enough ROMs to ship with them. However, I'm thinking Sonnet didn't require a return of the old CPU... thus they wouldn't get ROMs back... I think my brain is blending two or three different companies.
Though I'm not sure of when/if if they stopped using the ROM dump tool, I am certain about that video issue if that thread is to be given any credibility.
Looking at LEM for the video hardware:
1g- ATI 3D Rage LT
2g- ATI Rage LT Pro
The 1g also had a 12 inch model that was 800x600 and only had 2MB of VRAM as opposed to 4.
It would make sense to use 1 ROM for a 1g WS's, even if that means supporting two different VRAM configurations, since it is the same GPU controller. (What I mean is, I doubt there are 2 1g ROMs.) However, is is definitely likely that the 1g GPU part of the ROM is quite different from the 2g GPU part of the ROM. With that possibility in mind, I am inclinded to trust the thread mentioned above on the differeing ROMs.
In short: I can't tell you when they stopped using the ROM dump, if at all :'( * However, I can tell you that I trust the video/ROM issue does exist. The easiest way to test would be to try a 1g CPU in a 2g WS.
*until I do more research... when I get back from school today.
What I recall,but can't find my source any longer: Was at some point they had enough ROMs to ship with them. However, I'm thinking Sonnet didn't require a return of the old CPU... thus they wouldn't get ROMs back... I think my brain is blending two or three different companies.
Though I'm not sure of when/if if they stopped using the ROM dump tool, I am certain about that video issue if that thread is to be given any credibility.
Looking at LEM for the video hardware:
1g- ATI 3D Rage LT
2g- ATI Rage LT Pro
The 1g also had a 12 inch model that was 800x600 and only had 2MB of VRAM as opposed to 4.
It would make sense to use 1 ROM for a 1g WS's, even if that means supporting two different VRAM configurations, since it is the same GPU controller. (What I mean is, I doubt there are 2 1g ROMs.) However, is is definitely likely that the 1g GPU part of the ROM is quite different from the 2g GPU part of the ROM. With that possibility in mind, I am inclinded to trust the thread mentioned above on the differeing ROMs.
In short: I can't tell you when they stopped using the ROM dump, if at all :'( * However, I can tell you that I trust the video/ROM issue does exist. The easiest way to test would be to try a 1g CPU in a 2g WS.
*until I do more research... when I get back from school today.
I certainly appreciate your help thus far and anticipate any further research you might be able to dig up. (If you have time.) :beige:
I would also appreciate hearing your thoughts in my earlier post, which asks about whether those SO-DIMMs will truly fit in both slots on the CPU card. For truly, they are not the lowest profile SO-DIMMs I've seen. And yet they are not full height SO-DIMMs either.
Thank you!
I think they will fit. I've only seen two heights of RAM. The high and low. I only have one high and that was the apple offered 128MB upper slot upgrade.
This is the Tall chip.
...
and it turns out Ubuntu doesn't like my camera or my card reader. I'll need to re-install windows on a thumb drive or something to get the pictures...
/disapointed
EDIT- I also need windows to Jailbreak my iPod, so this time, the re-install is likely to happen)
This is the Tall chip.
...
and it turns out Ubuntu doesn't like my camera or my card reader. I'll need to re-install windows on a thumb drive or something to get the pictures...
/disapointed
EDIT- I also need windows to Jailbreak my iPod, so this time, the re-install is likely to happen
)
Well, I wrote to Sonnet last night in hopes if getting the definitive word on their 500MHz Crescendo G3 CPU upgrade for the Wallstreet PowerBooks. Here is what I wrote to them:
Neil from Sonnet Customer Service kindly responded a few hours later, as follows
Of course, I've not yet purchased the Sonnet CPU upgrade yet, but I wrote to Sonnet going under the assumption that the CPU card had already been flashed on a PowerBook G3 Wallstreet. And since it is not known if the PowerBook was in fact a PDQ edition, there is no way to know if it wouldn't have the same "dead video" as reported by a couple other users in those other threads. And since Sonnet says restoring the ROM to its pre-flashed state is now impossible, the only way to safely know if the CPU upgrade would work is if you know 100% that the upgrade had been flashed in the same exact "revision" model as the PowerBook you own.
In retrospect it seems quite foolish to me that Sonnet setup the card this way, as it put the support burden on them for reflashing. And now after all these years, it has become impossible to reflash the cards at all.
The other unclear point is about the requirement for the "stock 2GB hard drive" that some have reported. Let's say you acquire a Sonnet CPU upgrade that was flashed on another PDQ and you wish to use it on your PowerBook G3 PDQ. You would need to use Sonnet's Installer software, so it would install the appropriate extensions on your machine. But would that installer not work if you lack the stock 2GB hard drive (which many PowerBook G3 users do lack these days)? Or would it simply refuse to reflash the CPU upgrade, which cannot be done anyway once its flashed?
All said, I must admit I am rather disappointed.
Neil from Sonnet Customer Service kindly responded a few hours later, as follows
Of course, I've not yet purchased the Sonnet CPU upgrade yet, but I wrote to Sonnet going under the assumption that the CPU card had already been flashed on a PowerBook G3 Wallstreet. And since it is not known if the PowerBook was in fact a PDQ edition, there is no way to know if it wouldn't have the same "dead video" as reported by a couple other users in those other threads. And since Sonnet says restoring the ROM to its pre-flashed state is now impossible, the only way to safely know if the CPU upgrade would work is if you know 100% that the upgrade had been flashed in the same exact "revision" model as the PowerBook you own.
In retrospect it seems quite foolish to me that Sonnet setup the card this way, as it put the support burden on them for reflashing. And now after all these years, it has become impossible to reflash the cards at all.
The other unclear point is about the requirement for the "stock 2GB hard drive" that some have reported. Let's say you acquire a Sonnet CPU upgrade that was flashed on another PDQ and you wish to use it on your PowerBook G3 PDQ. You would need to use Sonnet's Installer software, so it would install the appropriate extensions on your machine. But would that installer not work if you lack the stock 2GB hard drive (which many PowerBook G3 users do lack these days)? Or would it simply refuse to reflash the CPU upgrade, which cannot be done anyway once its flashed?
All said, I must admit I am rather disappointed.
...and the crap has hit the fan :'(
...maybe you could ask if it is possible with an original HDD? They might have said impossible if you don't have the original HDD, but possibly possible otherwise... just stabbing in the dark here...
EDIT- Also, it would probably be best to ensure it was really scrapped. I'm sure you know how there can be ...lets call them... "disconnects" between tech service/PR and what is actually going on.
"Hey Dorris, We get rid of the ROM Flasher?"
"Yup, scrapped it a few years ago."
(While the ROM dumper is really sitting in the back storage area...)
EDIT - I'm nearly positive there is a way to re-flash it now. If a machine could do it, then that means it is re-writable. All we need to do is find the write enable lines and make a programmer board. Which, example dougg3, is quite possible if one knows their stuff.* Our advantage being we can test it on any Ole WS/PDQ cpu board, since they are designed to be the same.
Since the software can write it, It can't be too hard. I'm guessing the need for an apple drive is because it somehow stores the BIOS on a disk cache and loads it to the new CPU card... otherwise, I can't figure where the ROM would be to allow it to boot... thoughts?
*not to imply that I have anywhere near the skillset to do something like that...
...maybe you could ask if it is possible with an original HDD? They might have said impossible if you don't have the original HDD, but possibly possible otherwise... just stabbing in the dark here...
EDIT- Also, it would probably be best to ensure it was really scrapped. I'm sure you know how there can be ...lets call them... "disconnects" between tech service/PR and what is actually going on.
"Hey Dorris, We get rid of the ROM Flasher?"
"Yup, scrapped it a few years ago."
(While the ROM dumper is really sitting in the back storage area...)
EDIT - I'm nearly positive there is a way to re-flash it now. If a machine could do it, then that means it is re-writable. All we need to do is find the write enable lines and make a programmer board. Which, example dougg3, is quite possible if one knows their stuff.* Our advantage being we can test it on any Ole WS/PDQ cpu board, since they are designed to be the same.
Since the software can write it, It can't be too hard. I'm guessing the need for an apple drive is because it somehow stores the BIOS on a disk cache and loads it to the new CPU card... otherwise, I can't figure where the ROM would be to allow it to boot... thoughts?
*not to imply that I have anywhere near the skillset to do something like that...
Anyway, Here are the RAM Pictures:
And my CF->IDE Set-Up
And my CF->IDE Set-Up
I actually wrote them a second email about the "original hard drive" requirement, to confirm whether or not it truly is a "requirement." I had been waiting for a reply, but so far they have not given me one. In light of how fast they gave me their first reply, the delay in getting me a second reply indicates that they feel they said all that was needed to be said about an obsolete, discontinued product. Of course, I am dissatisfied with that, especially in light of the fact that I told them I would be posting their information in a vintage Mac forum for other enthusiasts to read, thus eliminating any future questions about the issue. Indeed, I sought to extend them a favor, but they (so far anyway) have given me the cold shoulder with regard to my second question. Perhaps they simply don't know. But in that case, they should have sent me an email saying so. Or at the very least, they could have sent me a reply that said, "No guarantees, but we'll look into it." But no reply at all is just not right, even for a discontinued and obsolete product. (If they truly wanted to rid themselves of every single memory of such ancient Sonnet products, why then maintain a product web page and FAQ for those old products? Logically, it makes no sense.)
Of course, if they do offer me the courtesy of a reply, I will be 100% content and I will of course post that here for all to read.
Since Sonnet hasn't replied to the second email I sent to them yesterday, I doubt they would respond to another email about that. But perhaps it would do them good if you or another one of us contacted them directly: support@sonnettech.com
Truly, if Sonnet sees that it's not just me alone who is asking them about these old products, they may see the wisdom in my original advise to them and tell us what we want to know so we won't bother them anymore. The end result will be good for them and good for us.
You're right about them most likely still having a ROM flasher. It doesn't make sense that they would have merely trashed it. And if they had, what modern company these days doesn't keep records on what they buy, sell or dispose of? It's not nuclear waste, for crying out loud.
I don't wish to make the reader feel I am unduly harping on Sonnet. I have actually purchased other upgrades from them in the past (e.g., for my G4 Cube) and have always been satisfied with the company. They did make some great upgrade products. I simply am distraught over spending all these hours researching the 500MHz G3 CPU upgrade and still not having all the answers, even though the answers are so close within my grasp.
Lastly, thank you for the photos. I see that the "semi low profile" SO-DIMMs should indeed fit in either CPU card slot.
It seems to me more likely than not that, back in the day, if someone had been going to spend real money on upgrading a WS, it would have been on the best of them. The best of them were the last of them: the models with the 14" screen, and the (common) 266MHz or (rare) 300MHz processors with 1MB L2 backside cache. Some of the earlier WS series were rather poor (12" passive matrix screens that were truly dire and that at 800x600 only, or 13" active-matrix screens that were highly unreliable, and some even had anemic, cacheless processors), so that you'd have been nuts to want to invest any more money in one. You couldn't even swap the screens between good and bad models, mostly. But they got much, much better. There is a reason that it is the last iterations of the WS that you mostly see for sale, as those are the ones that most pleased, were most reliable, and thus that most often have been valued and have survived.
Frankly, though, I would not fuss over a Sonnet upgrade for a minute. A 266MHz WS is already a slick, genuinely "old world" PowerBook for OS 8.1-9.22 work, and it will even run X.3 relatively well if you have the RAM for it (X.3 via xpostfacto). I would judge it to make much more sense to spend the money on a Pismo if greater speed in OS9 or if OSX on a classic 'book is desired. Unless you are doing something crazy like encoding mp3s on the WS, you will not really want for more megahertz. Most everything is perfectly snappy already.
I used a 14" WS, 266MHz, daily for several years in OS9 and it never really disappointed — with the exception of 3D games. Even Bugdom was a struggle (my youngsters used to play it on the thing). But then, a processor upgrade is not really going to help you there.
I still have that 14" machine and use it still more than most for this and that. The localtalk port, floppy bay, and so on makes them very flexible units. The keyboard is really superb — much better than a Pismo's (do not believe anyone, e.g. on LEM, no matter how illustrious, Canadian and bearded, who says otherwise).
I also have a fair number of spare parts, by the way, should you need something when the time comes, as I obtained several spares as they appeared for small sums over the years in order to refurbish and give away, and to keep mine ship-shape. I became pretty adept at it, and must have stripped down various WS machines completely twenty or thirty times. I have no spare large RAM chips, alas, though I do have a sizeable number of small (32MB, 64MB) ones.
Frankly, though, I would not fuss over a Sonnet upgrade for a minute. A 266MHz WS is already a slick, genuinely "old world" PowerBook for OS 8.1-9.22 work, and it will even run X.3 relatively well if you have the RAM for it (X.3 via xpostfacto). I would judge it to make much more sense to spend the money on a Pismo if greater speed in OS9 or if OSX on a classic 'book is desired. Unless you are doing something crazy like encoding mp3s on the WS, you will not really want for more megahertz. Most everything is perfectly snappy already.
I used a 14" WS, 266MHz, daily for several years in OS9 and it never really disappointed — with the exception of 3D games. Even Bugdom was a struggle (my youngsters used to play it on the thing). But then, a processor upgrade is not really going to help you there.
I still have that 14" machine and use it still more than most for this and that. The localtalk port, floppy bay, and so on makes them very flexible units. The keyboard is really superb — much better than a Pismo's (do not believe anyone, e.g. on LEM, no matter how illustrious, Canadian and bearded, who says otherwise).
I also have a fair number of spare parts, by the way, should you need something when the time comes, as I obtained several spares as they appeared for small sums over the years in order to refurbish and give away, and to keep mine ship-shape. I became pretty adept at it, and must have stripped down various WS machines completely twenty or thirty times. I have no spare large RAM chips, alas, though I do have a sizeable number of small (32MB, 64MB) ones.
I have a 300. The legacy ports are why I have it. I could upgrade, but I'd lose my ports... Besides, fully upgraded (w/ 500 G4) I'd need a TiBook 800 to out CPU it. (Look at those benchmarks... it beats a TiBook 667, HOW? idk, but that's some serious Old World pride right there.)
Also, I want to!
I've toyed with the idea of getting a 1GHz TiBook for OS 9, but it seems ...cheap...
Lastly, my PDQ isn't just my main OS 9 machine. It is my main laptop. Thus, whatever I can do to improve it, I'm all for. (In my mind) I'd rather push it some than buy a newer one.
Also, I want to!
I've toyed with the idea of getting a 1GHz TiBook for OS 9, but it seems ...cheap...
Lastly, my PDQ isn't just my main OS 9 machine. It is my main laptop. Thus, whatever I can do to improve it, I'm all for. (In my mind) I'd rather push it some than buy a newer one.
Hi Beachy,
Thanks for sharing your Wallstreet PDQ experience!
As I mentioned in my opening post, I intend to use my Wallstreet as a link machine between an old Mac 512k and modern OS X Lion Macs, as described in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16849&p=159095#p157775
This is why I didn't think twice about newer Lombard or Pismo models, because they don't have the serial port necessary for LocalTalk networking.
But at the same time, I wanted to make this machine more than a one-trick pony. That's why I've pondered the 500MHz G3 upgrade. I've also considered additional RAM, although I probably won't need more than the 128MB I have right now in OS 9, since I won't be putting OS X on it.
You're correct about the slow video though. So I don't know how much more use out of it I'd get from a 500MHz G3 when using fun or educational OS 9 software for my kids. I do know it would just be "snappier" overall.
I also have been mulling the OWC Legacy 40GB SSD. But the $150+shipping gives me pause. I will wait and see what kind of discounts BLACK FRIDAY brings this year and make a purchasing decision then.
I also need a battery, since my Wallstreet didn't come with one. OWC sells them "new" (however old that "new" stock is, I don't know), but man they are expensive at $100 each. I see a guy on EBAY who sells the official Apple branded batteries. He even charges and tests them to see how much battery life they get. On one he claims it gets more than 4 hours. But I worry about those Apple branded ones because we all know when they were last made. After 10 years they should be about dead, even if they were never used before. Which brings me back to OWC and their good but expensive batteries. But again, we'll see what BLACK FRIDAY brings.
Thanks for sharing your Wallstreet PDQ experience!
As I mentioned in my opening post, I intend to use my Wallstreet as a link machine between an old Mac 512k and modern OS X Lion Macs, as described in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16849&p=159095#p157775
This is why I didn't think twice about newer Lombard or Pismo models, because they don't have the serial port necessary for LocalTalk networking.
But at the same time, I wanted to make this machine more than a one-trick pony. That's why I've pondered the 500MHz G3 upgrade. I've also considered additional RAM, although I probably won't need more than the 128MB I have right now in OS 9, since I won't be putting OS X on it.
You're correct about the slow video though. So I don't know how much more use out of it I'd get from a 500MHz G3 when using fun or educational OS 9 software for my kids. I do know it would just be "snappier" overall.
I also have been mulling the OWC Legacy 40GB SSD. But the $150+shipping gives me pause. I will wait and see what kind of discounts BLACK FRIDAY brings this year and make a purchasing decision then.
I also need a battery, since my Wallstreet didn't come with one. OWC sells them "new" (however old that "new" stock is, I don't know), but man they are expensive at $100 each. I see a guy on EBAY who sells the official Apple branded batteries. He even charges and tests them to see how much battery life they get. On one he claims it gets more than 4 hours. But I worry about those Apple branded ones because we all know when they were last made. After 10 years they should be about dead, even if they were never used before. Which brings me back to OWC and their good but expensive batteries. But again, we'll see what BLACK FRIDAY brings.
Well, the 500MHz G3 is a dead end. It's confirmed. The seller sent me the serial number of the Wallstreet in which he tested the CPU card and confirmed it worked: CK8211W8CWH
If you look up that serial here you'll see its a 13" model, pre-PDQ:
http://www.chipmunk.nl/klantenservice/applemodel.html
For sake of comparing, my Wallstreet has the following serial: QT9031GPE6D
And here's the WIKI on what defines a PDQ:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G3#PowerBook_G3_Series_.28Wallstreet_Series_II.2C_AKA_PDQ.29
I'm still rather upset Sonnet was didn't have the foresight to design their cards to be more easily restored to their pre-flashed state. The end user should be able to do that!
So let this thread be a warning for those of you who find CPU cards for Wallstreets online, especially from Sonnet. They may not work in your machine, depending on what machine they were originally flashed in.
But for those of you who wish to tinker and possible restore the ROM yourself, here is the product I had so badly wanted to buy:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00006BBLK/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
Siragan was very helpful. He appears to be an enthusiast too. I'm sure he'd answer any questions you might have (which aren't already answered in this thread).
If you look up that serial here you'll see its a 13" model, pre-PDQ:
http://www.chipmunk.nl/klantenservice/applemodel.html
For sake of comparing, my Wallstreet has the following serial: QT9031GPE6D
And here's the WIKI on what defines a PDQ:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G3#PowerBook_G3_Series_.28Wallstreet_Series_II.2C_AKA_PDQ.29
I'm still rather upset Sonnet was didn't have the foresight to design their cards to be more easily restored to their pre-flashed state. The end user should be able to do that!
So let this thread be a warning for those of you who find CPU cards for Wallstreets online, especially from Sonnet. They may not work in your machine, depending on what machine they were originally flashed in.
But for those of you who wish to tinker and possible restore the ROM yourself, here is the product I had so badly wanted to buy:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00006BBLK/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
Siragan was very helpful. He appears to be an enthusiast too. I'm sure he'd answer any questions you might have (which aren't already answered in this thread).
I don't see how this is a definite end. It works in an earlier model, so.... that means it could have a R1 OR R2 ROM.
Is he the original owner that did the flashing? Did he do it in that powerbook? Or, was it just the test bed?
Is he the original owner that did the flashing? Did he do it in that powerbook? Or, was it just the test bed?
The seller did not originally flash the card. He merely used the 13" PB as a test bed. If you define R1 as Revision 1, then that is what is flashed in the Sonnet card, as evidenced by the fact it works (with video) in that R1 Wallstreet 13". And that shows it won't work in the R2 (newer PDQs) as the R1 ROM refers to a video chip that the R2 PDQ's don't have. That is why some Sonnet users have reported no video when they moved the Sonnet card to a newer machine. Scroll back up and read the threads I linked for you which talk about this.
A R2 ROM will work in a R1 machine. It is the vice versa that is the problem. That is why you can put a R2 cpu board in a R1 WS, but not vice versa.
It working in a R1 means:
It works
It works in a R1
b:
It may work in a R2 :-/
So, at this point...
Feeling lucky... punk?
Unless of course I'm wrong and you can't use R2 cpus in a R1, but I'm pretty sure you can.
It working in a R1 means:
It works
It works in a R1
b: It may work in a R2 :-/
So, at this point...
Feeling lucky... punk?
Unless of course I'm wrong and you can't use R2 cpus in a R1, but I'm pretty sure you can.
Defining terms for all who come after reading this:
R1 = Revision 1 ROM, pre-PDQ Wallstreet (specifically including the 13" screen editions)
R2 = Revision 2 ROM, PDQ Wallstreet (the last revision of the Wallstreet Apple manufactured before they moved to Lombard)
Now, as was stated previously, the Amazon seller of the CPU card tested the 500MHz G3 Sonnet card in a R1 Wallstreet with 13" screen. It worked perfectly on that machine, which shows it will not work perfectly on an R2 machine. Why? Because as stated previously the ROM of the Sonnet card has been flashed with R1, and R1 won't recognize the video chip in R2 Wallstreets. And according to Sonnet, they lack the hardware device to reflash Sonnet CPU cards that have already been flashed. (If you doubt this, please email Sonnet tech support and beg them to search their warehouse. They never replied back to me though about my question concerning the "stock hard drive" requirement.)
So unless you use a 13" Wallstreet or another R1 Wallstreet with that particular Sonnet card, or unless you are a techno genius who can figure out how to restore the ROM in the Sonnet card to its pre-flashed (empty) state, you will not be able to use that Sonnet card in an R2 Wallstreet.
The seller of the Sonnet card contacted me today to say that he is willing to sell his 13" Wallstreet along with the Sonnet card, for anyone interested. I already have a PDQ, so I am not interested. And I don't feel lucky enough to think that buying this Sonnet card will magically make it work in my PDQ. The card is being sold for $120, plus shipping. And since I live in Japan, shipping is often quite high. So for those of you who can get cheap domestic shipping in the US, by all means, give it a try!
R1 = Revision 1 ROM, pre-PDQ Wallstreet (specifically including the 13" screen editions)
R2 = Revision 2 ROM, PDQ Wallstreet (the last revision of the Wallstreet Apple manufactured before they moved to Lombard)
Now, as was stated previously, the Amazon seller of the CPU card tested the 500MHz G3 Sonnet card in a R1 Wallstreet with 13" screen. It worked perfectly on that machine, which shows it will not work perfectly on an R2 machine. Why? Because as stated previously the ROM of the Sonnet card has been flashed with R1, and R1 won't recognize the video chip in R2 Wallstreets. And according to Sonnet, they lack the hardware device to reflash Sonnet CPU cards that have already been flashed. (If you doubt this, please email Sonnet tech support and beg them to search their warehouse. They never replied back to me though about my question concerning the "stock hard drive" requirement.)
So unless you use a 13" Wallstreet or another R1 Wallstreet with that particular Sonnet card, or unless you are a techno genius who can figure out how to restore the ROM in the Sonnet card to its pre-flashed (empty) state, you will not be able to use that Sonnet card in an R2 Wallstreet.
The seller of the Sonnet card contacted me today to say that he is willing to sell his 13" Wallstreet along with the Sonnet card, for anyone interested. I already have a PDQ, so I am not interested. And I don't feel lucky enough to think that buying this Sonnet card will magically make it work in my PDQ. The card is being sold for $120, plus shipping. And since I live in Japan, shipping is often quite high. So for those of you who can get cheap domestic shipping in the US, by all means, give it a try!
How do you know it is flashed with a R1 ROM? A R2 (to the best of my knowledge) will work fine in a R1. This is why you can use R2 cpu boards in a R1 mb, but not vice versa.
Thus, the fact that it works in a R1 PB does not explicitly imply that it is a R1 ROM. It could be either R1 or R2.
Sorry, I awoke with a major headache this morning and I'm still awaiting relieve from my Excedrin tablet. Your thinking is logical. I will speak with the seller and see what he has to say.