Thread
Classic II: "This startup disk will not work..."
Hello everyone!
Conducted a search, but was unable to find anything on this. My machine information follows:
Machine: Macintosh Classic II
10 MB RAM
80 MB HD
OS 7.53, Revision 2
Well, a few time that I restarted my machine, it froze. I reset it a few times, and then it seemed to run a bit more smoothly. Still, that wasn't right, so I found and installed Disk First Aid. It found all kinds of problems, "Missing file record for file thread, XXXX,XX" about a dozen times, with the message, "The volume "XXXX" needs to be repaired."
So, I happen to have a Disk Tools floppy. So I popped it in to boot and fix my HD, only it came up with the following message:
"This startup disk will not work on this Macintosh model. Use the latest Installer to update this disk for this model." :disapprove:
The good news is that my Classic II is web-capable through an Asante Desktop EN/SC, internet courtesy of Netscape 2.02. :approve:
So now I'm stuck and could use some advice. How do I make a startup disk for my machine that it will recognize?
Conducted a search, but was unable to find anything on this. My machine information follows:
Machine: Macintosh Classic II
10 MB RAM
80 MB HD
OS 7.53, Revision 2
Well, a few time that I restarted my machine, it froze. I reset it a few times, and then it seemed to run a bit more smoothly. Still, that wasn't right, so I found and installed Disk First Aid. It found all kinds of problems, "Missing file record for file thread, XXXX,XX" about a dozen times, with the message, "The volume "XXXX" needs to be repaired."
So, I happen to have a Disk Tools floppy. So I popped it in to boot and fix my HD, only it came up with the following message:
"This startup disk will not work on this Macintosh model. Use the latest Installer to update this disk for this model." :disapprove:
The good news is that my Classic II is web-capable through an Asante Desktop EN/SC, internet courtesy of Netscape 2.02. :approve:
So now I'm stuck and could use some advice. How do I make a startup disk for my machine that it will recognize?
If I remember correctly, the Mac OS 8.1 Disk Tools 1 disk will boot up an '030 machine no problem. Contains a stripped down System 7.5 install. Another option would be to hunt down a 7.1 Disk Tools disk... I take it, your Disk Tools disk is for System 7.0? For some reason, Apple decided that the 7.0 Disk Tools disk should be System 6.0.7.
-J
-J
http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/
If you have the means to create a floppy from an image, disk 2 of that set is is "Disk Tools 1" followed by disk 3 being "Disk Tools 2". disk 1 is a "Before you begin" disk.
)
If you have the means to create a floppy from an image, disk 2 of that set is is "Disk Tools 1" followed by disk 3 being "Disk Tools 2". disk 1 is a "Before you begin" disk.
) Thanks for the replies. Will look into the recommendations. Starting to wonder whether or not the drive is going bad, since a few disks now are reading bad after having initialized them on my Classic II.
I heard of a virus that says that a volume needs to be repaired. Run Disinfectant-it eradicates the virus.
In any case, don't let the virus do the repair! (It's behaves more like a disk formatter utility :lol: !)
In any case, don't let the virus do the repair! (It's behaves more like a disk formatter utility :lol: !)
Virus on OS 7? Wow, didn't know those existed. Where can I go to get Disinfectant?
Ran Disinfectant 3.7.1, and it found no viruses, but one alert ("There is not enough memory to check this file").
Am finding that I'm ruining perfectly good disks after inserting them - tried to run Disk Copy on three floppies, all of which detected problems during the process. Then inserted them only to find the computer no longer recognized them and wanted to initialize each of them. Prior to trying to use Disk Copy, the disks were readable, so wonder if the drive is going bad.
Am finding that I'm ruining perfectly good disks after inserting them - tried to run Disk Copy on three floppies, all of which detected problems during the process. Then inserted them only to find the computer no longer recognized them and wanted to initialize each of them. Prior to trying to use Disk Copy, the disks were readable, so wonder if the drive is going bad.
I've never heard that the virus stops floppy drives from working, so I dont' think it's a virus. But just to make sure, did you make sure that you got the latest version of Disinfectant (FYI, I got the one from Macintosh Garden)?
Okay, picked up another floppy drive, and I'm still seeing similar activity. I'm running out of floppy disks with which to experiment. The things just aren't as plentiful as they once were. Checked a bunch of older PC disks, and the Mac reads them fine - though I'm afraid to try writing anything on them.
I do have a new USB FDD coming in, so will be checking the now "bad" disks on it once it arrives.
I do have a new USB FDD coming in, so will be checking the now "bad" disks on it once it arrives.
What do you mean by "running out" of disks? Does it wreak them to the point of not even reformatting being possible?
Have you recapped the Analog and logic board of your Classic II ?
I have seen this kind of trouble due to failing capacitors: the voltage swings or is too low and causes the logic board and floppy drive to malfunction and so causing all sorts of weird errors.
The capacitors on the Classic I/II analog boards are of very poor quality. Have you checked the +5 and +12 voltage lines ?
As for the floppy discs: the high density one's are still very easy to find and cheap compared to the DD.
Or just use some sticky tape over the hole on the HD disk, then reformat it as a DD disk 
!
!Tried the double-density trick. The FDD saw the disk as a DD, but again, no luck initializing.
Here is the error I am always getting:
"Disk initialization failed because the disk is defective!"
My confusion is this: Why does the FDD have no challenge in reading any disk I put in there (other than the ones it failed to initialize - which is all of them - eight and counting), but it cannot initialize them? All of the disks I attempted to initialize were perfectly readable before the failed attempts. It can't be the FDDs themselves, since both demonstrate the exact same symptoms.
I still have a USB FDD in-bound, so all is not lost. I assume I can initialize a disk with that on my Mac Pro that my Classic II will be able to read. Even so, that doesn't answer the mail on my initialization demon.
Okay, did a forum search on recapping, and I discovered what that meant. Sadly, my last attempt to solder something much simpler was an unqualified disaster, ruining that with which I touched the iron. Really don't want to screw up my Classic II on the possibility that capacitors might need to be replaced. I'll study the boards to see if I can spot any leakage though. Can't irreversibly screw up anything that way, right?
Okay, looked very close at (what I think are) the capacitors on the motherboard, and to my very untrained eye there seems to be some slight corrosion around the bottom of them . I counted what looks to be seventeen of the things scattered around - that's a lot of screw-up potential for me. I might try washing the board with alcohol to see if that helps with the FDD issue. If it doesn't, I can see me quickly ruining that which now works on the board if I try to try my pathetic skills at soldering. Guess if I hose it up, I can always pick up another broken Classic II for spare parts.
Here is the error I am always getting:
"Disk initialization failed because the disk is defective!"
My confusion is this: Why does the FDD have no challenge in reading any disk I put in there (other than the ones it failed to initialize - which is all of them - eight and counting), but it cannot initialize them? All of the disks I attempted to initialize were perfectly readable before the failed attempts. It can't be the FDDs themselves, since both demonstrate the exact same symptoms.
I still have a USB FDD in-bound, so all is not lost. I assume I can initialize a disk with that on my Mac Pro that my Classic II will be able to read. Even so, that doesn't answer the mail on my initialization demon.
Okay, did a forum search on recapping, and I discovered what that meant. Sadly, my last attempt to solder something much simpler was an unqualified disaster, ruining that with which I touched the iron. Really don't want to screw up my Classic II on the possibility that capacitors might need to be replaced. I'll study the boards to see if I can spot any leakage though. Can't irreversibly screw up anything that way, right?
Okay, looked very close at (what I think are) the capacitors on the motherboard, and to my very untrained eye there seems to be some slight corrosion around the bottom of them . I counted what looks to be seventeen of the things scattered around - that's a lot of screw-up potential for me. I might try washing the board with alcohol to see if that helps with the FDD issue. If it doesn't, I can see me quickly ruining that which now works on the board if I try to try my pathetic skills at soldering. Guess if I hose it up, I can always pick up another broken Classic II for spare parts.
Ask around before you try it yourself, as I've read of some people here who will offer to recap your board for you.
Thanks. Someone did indeed offer to recap the board for me. Apparently, mine isn't the usual Classic II board, but rather a later version with more caps than the first version.
Oh! More trouble for you then :lol: ! Does it work now?
Found this
: http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19815
Found this
: http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19815Waiting on the caps to arrive, probably late next week. Then I'll send them off with the mainboard to the cat who will replace them. Figure I'll have it ready for battle after Christmas.
Of course, there's no guarantee that replacing the caps will fix my FDD issue. :-/
Do have a PowerMac 3400C coming in from ebay, which will allow me to write floppy disks my Classic II can read, which ironically I cannot do on much newer Macs even with a USB FDD.
Of course, there's no guarantee that replacing the caps will fix my FDD issue. :-/
Do have a PowerMac 3400C coming in from ebay, which will allow me to write floppy disks my Classic II can read, which ironically I cannot do on much newer Macs even with a USB FDD.
Okay!
Have a recapped main board, and am still getting the same message with either disk drive (got another to swap out in case the drive was going bad). In fact, once the computer starts up on HD, the disks aren't even readable (wants to initialize them), and think it's ruining perfectly-good disks.
I know they're good disks, because my PowerBook's FDD reads them.
Any other suggestions? :-/
Have a recapped main board, and am still getting the same message with either disk drive (got another to swap out in case the drive was going bad). In fact, once the computer starts up on HD, the disks aren't even readable (wants to initialize them), and think it's ruining perfectly-good disks.
I know they're good disks, because my PowerBook's FDD reads them.
Any other suggestions? :-/
Let's prove if it's really ruining them!
Does the PowerBook still read them after you put them in the Classic? Also, if the PowerBook doesn't read them, can they be reformatted?
Does the PowerBook still read them after you put them in the Classic? Also, if the PowerBook doesn't read them, can they be reformatted?
When I put them in the PowerBook (from the Classic II, after it "erases" them), it can no longer read them - has to initialize them again. It can do so, and it can then re-image Disk Tools 1 and Disk Tools 2. Can boot the PowerBook with Disk Tools 2, though not with Disk Tools 1. It does read it, but just can't boot from it.
It's worth noting that I get the when booting the Classic II from either Disk Tools 1 or Disk Tools 2, but I then get the message, "This startup disk will not work on this Macintosh..." with both disks - though they remain unaltered.
It's worth noting that I get the
when booting the Classic II from either Disk Tools 1 or Disk Tools 2, but I then get the message, "This startup disk will not work on this Macintosh..." with both disks - though they remain unaltered.So to recap, this Classic II boots from the hard drive? Its just the floppy is not working?
I have had lots of issues with floppy drives, there are all kinds of threads on here that go over how to repair a auto inject superdrive.
They are not really a wear item, but they are a place where filth collects, Sometimes the heads get magnetized and need to be DE-magnitized.
Again with the filth, and dried caked grease in there... Can cause all kinds of issues.
first suggestion is to take both super drives all apart and clean them very well, then relube all the mechanicals.
you might have to re-adjust the head pressure, you can do that my removing the top and bottom head assm, and then adjusting the head tension spring to the next tighter setting on the 3 position adjustable spring perch.
you can buy de-magnitizers at some hardware-dollor stores.
I have had lots of issues with floppy drives, there are all kinds of threads on here that go over how to repair a auto inject superdrive.
They are not really a wear item, but they are a place where filth collects, Sometimes the heads get magnetized and need to be DE-magnitized.
Again with the filth, and dried caked grease in there... Can cause all kinds of issues.
first suggestion is to take both super drives all apart and clean them very well, then relube all the mechanicals.
you might have to re-adjust the head pressure, you can do that my removing the top and bottom head assm, and then adjusting the head tension spring to the next tighter setting on the 3 position adjustable spring perch.
you can buy de-magnitizers at some hardware-dollor stores.
Thanks for the recommendation - will look into that.
When the Classic II is booting from the Disk Tools disks, it recognizes that they're system disks, but it gives the message that they're the wrong disks for that system. Wondering if there is an earlier version than Disk Tools 1.
Think it's odd that I get the same errors on both floppy disk drives, vice just one - especially considering those errors did not exist before last year. But suppose they could both have the very same mechanical errors, simultaneously. If that's the case, wouldn't the drive not even recognize the Disk Tools disks as system disks on boot?
When the Classic II is booting from the Disk Tools disks, it recognizes that they're system disks, but it gives the message that they're the wrong disks for that system. Wondering if there is an earlier version than Disk Tools 1.
Think it's odd that I get the same errors on both floppy disk drives, vice just one - especially considering those errors did not exist before last year. But suppose they could both have the very same mechanical errors, simultaneously. If that's the case, wouldn't the drive not even recognize the Disk Tools disks as system disks on boot?
by the way i am running 6.0.8L on my Classic II and it works really great.
have you checked this ?
The capacitors on the Classic I/II analog boards are of very poor quality. Have you checked the +5 and +12 voltage lines ?
per. "nvdeynde" suggestion.
The capacitors on the Classic I/II analog boards are of very poor quality. Have you checked the +5 and +12 voltage lines ?
per. "nvdeynde" suggestion.
Have not checked the voltage on the analog board, but would be willing to try - keeping in mind that I know as much about checking such things as I do writing a dissertation on Astrophysics.
Again, sent off the logic board to get recapped, but not the analog board. Not really excited about going to the time and expense to do so, only to discover that wasn't the issue (as happened with recapping the logic board). Then again, if that's the only viable course of action, so be it.
Will create some System 6 boot disks to see if I can boot the Classic II from that.
Again, sent off the logic board to get recapped, but not the analog board. Not really excited about going to the time and expense to do so, only to discover that wasn't the issue (as happened with recapping the logic board). Then again, if that's the only viable course of action, so be it.
Will create some System 6 boot disks to see if I can boot the Classic II from that.
just get a multimeter and check the from the header going to the mobo, +12 should be 12volts etc, not less.
did you get that 7.5.3 Disk tool's image they suggested? boot that up.. should work.
i havent done a analog board in a classic II yet, but i am sure i could figure it out.
did you get that 7.5.3 Disk tool's image they suggested? boot that up.. should work.
i havent done a analog board in a classic II yet, but i am sure i could figure it out.
Okay, can't mess that up, and do have a multimeter.
Before that (and the possibility of electrocuting myself through my own ignorance), will see if I can't find the 7.5.3 Disk Tools.
Edit: Found this, which showed downloads for Disk Tools 1 and Disk Tools 2, both of which I've already got, and neither of which will boot my Classic II (shows wrong system disk error message).
Before that (and the possibility of electrocuting myself through my own ignorance), will see if I can't find the 7.5.3 Disk Tools.
Edit: Found this, which showed downloads for Disk Tools 1 and Disk Tools 2, both of which I've already got, and neither of which will boot my Classic II (shows wrong system disk error message).
Okay, after more searching, found out that the popular Disk Tools 1 and Disk Tools 2 do not work with anything earlier than a 68040, my Classic II being a 68030.
So, found, downloaded, and burned the disks for System 6 ... and my Macintosh spit it out without hesitation and booted to the HD.
Then, found, downloaded, and burned disks for System 7 ... Huzzah! Those worked wonderfully. Found out my HD has some damage that Disk Tools (the one that came with System 7) could not correct - so will eventually have to get a replacement HD.
For now, am initializing the HD. Will then attempt to install System 7 on the machine, then updated to 7.5.3, then 7.5.5.
Should be fun!
So, found, downloaded, and burned the disks for System 6 ... and my Macintosh spit it out without hesitation and booted to the HD.
Then, found, downloaded, and burned disks for System 7 ... Huzzah! Those worked wonderfully. Found out my HD has some damage that Disk Tools (the one that came with System 7) could not correct - so will eventually have to get a replacement HD.
For now, am initializing the HD. Will then attempt to install System 7 on the machine, then updated to 7.5.3, then 7.5.5.
Should be fun!
I got the "This startup disk will not work" message when I was trying to align my floppy drive's head. Once I got it aligned, the disks worked fine. Here's my thread: http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=19884.
Thanks for the link. Am now faced with a new challenge: Can boot up with System 7.0 disks and install the system software on the machine.
Am unable to do the same with System 7.5.3 - the machine says it cannot install that system software for some reason, nor can I upgrade to System 7.5.3, once System 7.0 is installed.
Ah, a new puzzle!
Am unable to do the same with System 7.5.3 - the machine says it cannot install that system software for some reason, nor can I upgrade to System 7.5.3, once System 7.0 is installed.
Ah, a new puzzle!
What reason does it give? Could you quote the error message?
sorry to be repetitive, but try 6.0.8L it was made just for your machine... it works really good!
Regarding OS 6.0.8, put the startup disk for that in and my Classic II, and I got the following message:
"This startup disk will not work on this Macintosh model. Use the latest Installer to update this disk for this model. (System 6.08 does not work on this model; you need a newer version that does.)"
Regarding OS 7.5.3, put in the startup disk, and it stated the following:
"This startup disk will not work on this Macintosh model. Use the latest installer to update this disk for this model."
For some reason, the only OS I can install is System 7.01. It installs without a hitch. Strange, since it had System 7.55 on it before I wiped it. Is there a certain way I must prepare the HD with Disk Tools?
"This startup disk will not work on this Macintosh model. Use the latest Installer to update this disk for this model. (System 6.08 does not work on this model; you need a newer version that does.)"
Regarding OS 7.5.3, put in the startup disk, and it stated the following:
"This startup disk will not work on this Macintosh model. Use the latest installer to update this disk for this model."
For some reason, the only OS I can install is System 7.01. It installs without a hitch. Strange, since it had System 7.55 on it before I wiped it. Is there a certain way I must prepare the HD with Disk Tools?
You need 7.5, then install the 7.5.3 update then the 7.5.5 update. Welcome to the system 7.5 strangeness. Alot of models will not boot from 7.5.3 because of enablers that they just kind of forgot. The updates should leave the enabler and allow pdating without issue.
Hmmm, well only 7.5.3 is available from Apple for full download, so if I need 7.5 to get there it might be a show-stopper.
Still, 7.01 appears to be working fine right now. Just need to find a browser that will fit on a 1.44 FDD and get my Classic II back online.
Still, 7.01 appears to be working fine right now. Just need to find a browser that will fit on a 1.44 FDD and get my Classic II back online.
Messing around, found a way to start the installation of 7.5.3 (with 7.0.1 running the machine), even though the installer stated it didn't support the machine, using custom install.
If this works, will post its success. If it mucks things up, then wiping and reinstalling 7.0.1 will be easy.
If this works, will post its success. If it mucks things up, then wiping and reinstalling 7.0.1 will be easy.
6.0.8L is not available on apples site, you have to get that from a google search.
SYSTEM SOFTWARE VERSION 6.0.8L
For the Macintosh Classic II and Macintosh PowerBook 100
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA28558
SYSTEM SOFTWARE VERSION 6.0.8L
For the Macintosh Classic II and Macintosh PowerBook 100
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA28558
Will google the 6.0.8.L. Read nothing about networking in the linked ReadMe file, so how did you crack the nut on open transport and gaining internet through a LAN (I have a SCSI Asante ethernet adapter)?
Ah, thats a good question,
I know the Classic II has only 10 megs of ram available, and no fpu, after the os loads and all its OT overhead, + netscape 2.0 you are already using most of that.
haha, if i was was going to try and get to the internet, i would install 7.5.3, only because i am lazy, i have a version of 7.5.5 on a zip disk hacked with OT 1.3, witch makes it awfully nice to TCP/IP over apple talk to my powermac 7500, that way i can keep sneaker net on (for the older machines) and have the ability to connect through ethernet for use with machines that have a NIC(all at the same time)
ITs pretty nice you got your hands on one of those SCSI ethernet adaptors.
those appear to be quite rare these days.
I know the Classic II has only 10 megs of ram available, and no fpu, after the os loads and all its OT overhead, + netscape 2.0 you are already using most of that.
haha, if i was was going to try and get to the internet, i would install 7.5.3, only because i am lazy, i have a version of 7.5.5 on a zip disk hacked with OT 1.3, witch makes it awfully nice to TCP/IP over apple talk to my powermac 7500, that way i can keep sneaker net on (for the older machines) and have the ability to connect through ethernet for use with machines that have a NIC(all at the same time)
ITs pretty nice you got your hands on one of those SCSI ethernet adaptors.
those appear to be quite rare these days.
This is getting beyond me!
>
>
Update: My work-around attempt to install 7.5.3 fell flat. Had to reinstall 7.0.1 after initializing.
Miss all the open transport options with TCP/IP configuration though - can't find a way to crack that nut in 7.0.1, even with the Asante Ethernet software.
Miss all the open transport options with TCP/IP configuration though - can't find a way to crack that nut in 7.0.1, even with the Asante Ethernet software.
Finally met with success. I had two sets of System 7.5.3 floppy disks, and neither was able to install to my Classic II.
So, I copied the 7.5.3 images from the Apple site, and moved each image over to the Classic II from my PowerBook 3400c, one disk at a time. Copy, switch, copy, switch - rinse and repeat, until all images were on the Classic II - yeah, it took a while.
Finally, I ran the installer, and it acted like a CD installation - Huzzah! Have 7.5.3 on my Classic II!
So, I copied the 7.5.3 images from the Apple site, and moved each image over to the Classic II from my PowerBook 3400c, one disk at a time. Copy, switch, copy, switch - rinse and repeat, until all images were on the Classic II - yeah, it took a while.
Finally, I ran the installer, and it acted like a CD installation - Huzzah! Have 7.5.3 on my Classic II!
scsi ethernet working? good job.
good job.Yep. Internet's up and working. Now have to put a decent browser on there.
Now have my Classic II on the web through my Asante ethernet adapter, and can browse CD ROMs. It officially does everything I'd hoped it would do.
that is really great!