Caps! -- Macintosh SE/30

Correction there is

10 - 47uf caps, not 9

there was one hiding here:



up-dated graphic:

Great! Now please add the voltage ratings too :b&w:

Any where from 16 to 50 is fine.

if you click the mouser links they show voltages.

Yuck, don't re-install the same crappy SMT electrolytics that leaked the first time. Look at the specs, they're only rated for a few thousand hours. Tantalum or ceramic chip capacitors are far superior for only a few dollars more per computer.

I agree on specifying Tantalums only for these recap database entries.

If someone wants to use electrolytics, they can easily to find compatible substitutes for the cap specifications posted in the 68kMLA's (grass roots) database development project.

James, it you'd hash it out with Jeff we could some help coming up with guidelines, equivalencies and acceptable variations from spec . . .

. . . if you can parse that, hopefully you know what I'm fumbling at saying.

Thread linked: Capacitor Replacement Thread . . .

Yuck, don't re-install the same crappy SMT electrolytics that leaked the first time.

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Agreed, and having all these threads on caps is diluting the good info already contained here in the forums. Also saying things like twist off caps and promoting other lazy methods of fixing stuff is frustrating to see. Think of it from the perspective of someone new coming here trying to find reliable info for fixing their gear without making it worse. I hope mods (it?) put in some input and try to improve quality vs quantity of info to buck the more recent trend. :-/

The first two caps recommended by uniserver are the incorrect form-factor, they should have axial leads, not radial leads.

Mk.588 has a good guide here: http://tinyurl.com/7r7jjor

Axial (all though radial works just fine)

(470uf $1.03 ea) http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/TVX1C471MAD1LS/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22cHXfaMHMarCo7Vys6jlzI8%3d

(220uf 71 Cents ea) http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/TVX1E221MAD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22SmzhV1iNnMtBDYPX%2fZfeKg%3d

My God you guys must be rich!

(Tantalum Capacitors)



(47uf $3.83 ea) http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AVX/TCJY476M020R0070/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22fnRm5uGzJq9RBUATwqbwck%3d

(1uf $2.19 ea) http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AVX/TCJP105M025R0500/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22d3aR4Z2SDGoaqL1ivgEHrY%3d

If they last 5 years I'd be happy. I'm sure that would be more than enough. After that they will most likely be just for sure mostly.

Agreed, and having all these threads on caps is diluting the good info already contained here in the forums.

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This is a work in progress, I like the feedback, if you'd post the links to existing threads/info in Capacitor Replacement Thread . . . it would be greatly appreciated.

uniserver, don't be defensive about constructive criticism, this is a group effort, your graphics are VERY helpful, but the commentary for all articles will need to be vetted, edited, aided and abetted by the rest f the gang.

Guys, I asked for help in compiling this database w/almost exactly this type of artwork quite a while back. uniserver is, so far, the only one to post content for the project, so take it easy and make sure commentary is helpful AND constructive . . . deal?

Rule #1 - Form factors and types should be strictly adhered to for this project, as well as appearance of parts if possible. Let's all work together to make this just right, @ troops!

@ tt & gang: how about jumping in with pics of the period correct cap types in tantalum and the specs and ordering info for them? Those on the rest of the continents, we need similar data for local parts suppliers.

Anyone wanting to substitute less expensive components may do so on their own hook, this project is meant to try to keep our toys working for another 25 years.

They are oem replacement parts, They will last (at a minimum) as long as the stock caps did.

Its like a GM Car has A/C delco spark plugs, sure you can go and buy Bosch +4's, but the car was designed / engineered / tested to operate with

Oem Stock Parts.

I am not taking offense, not at all. Its just these campfire stories, That your system is going to blow up like next year, using oem parts is ridiculous.

Keep in mind, with your costs, If at some point you do want to get some ROI on your vintage peace? It's not gonna happen if you do not keep an eye

on what you are spending.

These Kemets look identical to the AVXs, and only cost $.47 each.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kemet/T491D476K016AT/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22SjDo%2fRaJSx%252b4jYqLAhRWTo%3d

They have a higher ESR than the AVXs, but both have lower ESRs than the Cornell-Dubilier electrolytics. Might be worth a shot.

The tantalums I used were under 50 cents each. Arguably superior multilayer ceramic chip capacitors are around 80 cents. Those have the advantage of being non-polar and are potentially a bit more reliable than tantalum. I can poke around on Mouser this evening and find some links, but I just bought the same tantalums that were posted on some Mac re-capping page I found on the net. For what it's worth, I haven't yet found a bad through-hole cap on a Mac logic board. My policy with those has been to test the ESR, and if it checks ok (as they all have) I leave it alone. The through-hole caps that go bad are the really highly stressed ones in the power supply.

Any number of different parts will work here. The applications that used the SMT 'lytics are non-critical, they had to be, even when new the old caps had terrible specs, ESR of 10+ Ohms was not uncommon and that's with a brand new part. My reasoning for using more reliable parts is that each leakage damages the board, and each replacement risks lifting a pad or tearing a trace. When working with stuff that isn't made anymore IMO it's worth a few dollars more to do it once and be done with it. It's still only about 5 bucks to re-cap the whole board.

Yuck, don't re-install the same crappy SMT electrolytics that leaked the first time.

Click to expand...

Agreed, and having all these threads on caps is diluting the good info already contained here in the forums. Also saying things like twist off caps and promoting other lazy methods of fixing stuff is frustrating to see.

Click to expand...

There are a couple of folks on the forums who seem to have made it there mission in life to recommend the twisting off method in every single thread on the topic and they go out of their way to criticize desoldering the caps.

I've mostly been ignoring it, figuring folks can get the more reliable methods from the older threads, and I don't feel like having a war spread across dozens of threads. So I limit myself to stating that there are several available methods and different folks have different preferences.

However, the twist-off folks have been preaching their method as the one true method and that is extremely irritating and probably out right wrong.

Okay, grumpy-old-man mode off.

You can always order the tantalum caps from me. You're really not saving any money going with Mouser or Digi-Key at the prices you're qouting here. The only advantage is that Mouser and Digi-Key have on-line ordering forms and one must actually type a message or two to order from me -- although I'd respond fine to a simple PayPal payment with shipping address and a list of capacitors.

The whole point to all this effort is to get away from the good old boy, PM - word of mouth communication,

Here is your main board-

Here are the caps you need-

Here are the cap links-

Here is how much they cost-

Here is how many are in-stock-

Here is shipping/carrier/pay

On their way, The next day-

Buy.

Cap.

Done.

Guys, I asked for help in compiling this database w/almost exactly this type of artwork quite a while back. uniserver is, so far, the only one to post content for the project, so take it easy and make sure commentary is helpful AND constructive . . . deal?
Rule #1 - Form factors and types should be strictly adhered to for this project, as well as appearance of parts if possible. Let's all work together to make this just right, @ troops!

@ tt & gang: how about jumping in with pics of the period correct cap types in tantalum and the specs and ordering info for them? Those on the rest of the continents, we need similar data for local parts suppliers.

Click to expand...

Mk.588 did a good job outlining the different components. I think techknight, trag, jdw and others also covered it in different ways. I am not an electrical engineer so I defer to those more knowledgeable about picking the best components. I offered my own take when I found out about polymer caps as a different technology and did not really see anyone talking about them. I listed exactly what I used in that thread and re-posted in the cap replacement thread. If you use those parts they will work and their dimensions are as close to stock as what I could find at Mouser. I think it's also fine to use tantalums, but I offered that info. for people who might have a special board/machine they want to keep looking more original. Using electrolytics for the small caps seems suspect going on our collective past experience. I do not see a reason to buy the cheapest parts when the better alternatives are not very much more. The time you spend on the repair is worth using better parts and repair methods. You can order from Trag if you have no clue what to buy.

If you are going to list parts here, I say the rule is you have to actually use them before you recommend them as a substitute.

There are a couple of folks on the forums who seem to have made it there mission in life to recommend the twisting off method in every single thread on the topic and they go out of their way to criticize desoldering the caps.

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Yeah, I sort of feel it has become the norm and is turning off people that make this forum a great place to learn new things.

Gentlemen, Trag is correct. Why buy from anywhere else.

Here are my BEFORE/AFTER SE/30 logic board recapping pics, with complete description under the photo, including link-backs to various discussions on this site, as well as to Trag's recapping kit:

Gentleman, Trag should post his email address, so the many people that see this as a guest can contact him direct for a High-end Quality Cap kit.

I am probably going to start selling DIY kits, but with OEM STOCK parts in the kits for all the common boards,

Included will be a color laser legal print out of the main board, with my main board image.

I have to wait to get my paycheck, and to fix all these boards from macdrone first though.

going to use all my nifty mouser links and go to town. Get some usps padded envelopes.

I'd be more then happy to help you my way, World.

I will sell 2 cap packages, I'll call them:

- Package 1- "The Bone Stock Fix" - Alum Can Caps

- Package 2- "I am a cheap ass Fix" - All Radials - Aka "Christmas Trees"

(My prices will be much less then anyone else package kits)

Both packages will include basic to minimal customer service

iamcapsmack@gmail.com

Tantalum Capacitors -(Kemet) Solid SMD 10%

(47uf 43 Cents ea) http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kemet/T491C476K016AT/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtZ1n0r9vR22WQok64Lf3O1OdZc8yJGuPA%3d

(1uf 14 Cents ea) http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Kemet/T491A105K035AT/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuEN2agSAc2plg9mRgM350BQreS0dFWegk%3d

Gentleman, Trag should post his email address, so the many people that see this as a guest can contact him direct for a High-end Quality Cap kit.

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My email address is available in the FS posting sticky'd at the top of Trading Post and has been for the last five years.

It may be my imagination, but you seem kind of hostile. Any particular reason why?

The whole point to all this effort is to get away from the good old boy, PM - word of mouth communication,

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Our efforts to date have not done that. The needed capacitors are clearly listed in the Wiki. Anyone who wishes can go and order those parts for themselves at a regular supplier. For folks who aren't comfortable doing that, there's a link to my FS in Trading Post.

That's hardly a "good old boy PM, word of mouth communication".

It's a straight forward web page providing information that anyone can access. No limitation on access, as your "good old boy" reference would seem to imply. PM is totally unnecessary to any portion of the process and there's no word of mouth involved at all.

Adding links to the actual pages at the suppliers is nice, but those links change over time, and there are many workable choices available.

What is your problem, that you feel the need to run down the work done by others at great effort before you? It's great that you want to help out and contribute, but running down the efforts others have put in earlier is not helping. And suggesting that folks put radial caps on surface mount pads is just plain misguided. Radial caps provide a lever which can lift a pad quicker than any other mishap. Surface mount pads should only be populated with surface mount caps if you want the board to last.

And just so there's no confusion, I don't make money off of the capacitor selling. Oh, if one did a strict net in, net out accounting, I've probably managed to make a little more than I've spent by now. And I've donated some or all of that (uncertain since I don't know the amount) to 68kmla.

If you can come up with a perfect system which will get me out of the capacitor business, that would be swell, as the tiny return isn't what motivates me to put in the time and keep the materials around. However, in the mean time, I really don't appreciate the unwarranted criticism of our past efforts.

I'm sorry you feel that way,

however, what you are saying, is not what i am doing.

In regards to radials, i would suggest to lay them down, not stand them up,

if you chose to use this method as a fix.

In regards to you making money, hey, if you do great, if not, great.

We're trying to compile a collaborative effort here. That is what i'm doing.

This drama bull crap has to go.

Its not going to get people boards fixed, there are many ways to fix something,

that is in the decision of the person completing the work.

also in-reguadrs to the pricing in the links changing,

and ill take it one more level, in-stock availability as well.

This would require some maintenance witch i am willing to do, after all they are threads and the info can be updated.

We're trying to compile a collaborative effort here. That is what i'm doing.

This drama bull crap has to go.

Its not going to get people boards fixed, there are many ways to fix something,

that is in the decision of the person completing the work.

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No, what you're doing is failing to listen to anything anyone else has to say on the topic. That is not a collaborative effort. But you're obviously a man on a mission. You may be wrong about almost everything, but the energy you're putting in is really great. Carry on.

thanks! i appreciate that.

Hey post your email address in here, The Trading post is not available to the outside world,

maybe sell some Caps, Suggestion, Try to make some money, Profit is a good thing.

Also, I'v tried to buy stuff from you before and it was not a good experience,

you took like 3 days to get back to me, i told you what i wanted to re-cap, you were not sure what i needed,

and so on..

So work some on your customer service.

I am putting in this effort to benefit everyone. Not just the good ol boys on 68kmla.

For what it's worth, I've also used electrolytic radial capacitors to recap some other of my SE/30 motherboards in the past:




But again, I found the SMD tantalum capacitors offered by Trag to be a better solution in terms of capacitor longevity, and one that is also more aesthetically pleasing too. But perhaps one of the greatest benefits of getting the entire kit from Trag is the fact that many of us here in these forums live outside the United States. As such, it usually costs us a heck of a lot more money to buy individual capacitors from online sellers such as JAMECO or DigiKey, and here in Japan, there are no local Radio Shacks.

Trag has been an active member of our forum here for many years, and he has contributed positively on many topics regarding vintage Mac upgrades and mods, and he is an honest and trustworthy "friend," not merely a coldhearted "profiteering seller." I feel comradery toward Trag even though we've never met face to face. I myself would therefore not categorize Trag as "a good old boy," which is most often taken to mean "an old standby who's been around in this forum for so long he's collecting dust." If you take a look at Trag's profile, you will see he is an "employed electrical engineer." You will also see that the bulk of his posts have been made in this "Compact Mac forum," and not in "the Lounge." He has a genuine love for old Macs that shows.

I can only therefore offer advice to slow down a bit, realize that 3 days is not an eternity, and get to know people here on a more personal basis; because genuine friendships can be helpful down the line. Giving back to the vintage computing community involves more than just awesome posts about a new mod you're conquering. Giving back also includes consideration of others and respectfulness, even in cases where we strongly disagree or in cases where we think we've already gone out of our way to be respectful enough to another person. (And as someone whose had run-ins and disagreements with mods on this forum before, I know full well how challenging that can be.)

No one is suggesting that people who are recapping SE/30 motherboards "must exclusively buy from Trag." Anyone who comes here has the freedom to buy from whoever they wish to buy from and share whatever experiences about their vintage Macs that they like. And so I will admit that it's interesting for me to read through this thread to see how people are doing it differently. I also found your other thread on an internal hard drive connection for a Mac plus to be an interesting read as well. Thank you. Nevertheless, with regard to recapping SE/30 motherboards, from my own experience anyway, it is a very cost-effective way and a simple solution to just buy the high quality caps in kit form from Trag. He is a knowledgeable man who has earned my respect.

Happy vintage Macing! :b&w:

Thanks for the input,

You try to have your self a nice day.

Also, I'v tried to buy stuff from you before and it was not a good experience,you took like 3 days to get back to me, i told you what i wanted to re-cap, you were not sure what i needed,

and so on..

So work some on your customer service.

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I'm a real human. I sometimes don't check email over an entire weekend. I also some times actually go out of town.

As far as knowing what everyone needs, I don't have an example of every Mac on hand. If someone is going to recap their Mac, they're going to need to pull the logic board. Asking them to count the caps themselves, is hardly a hardship and will be a necessity. Additionally, we have seen logic board variations. Every SE/30 has had the same assortment of caps, but the IIci and the Classic II have shown variation. If the owner doesn't count the caps, he/she may not get the right ones.