Thread

Schematics - Mac IIsi and others

68kMLA Software 25 posts Mar 20, 2013 to Apr 6, 2013

#1 Wed, 20 Mar 2013 - 06:18 68kMLA

I've been in touch with a guy who has an archive of reverse-engineered schematics, including for Mac IIsi and its PSU. I've told him I'm a restorer and he is willing to provide, but only by paper post and to a postal address in USA.

If any other IIsi owner wants these and has a US address, please PM me and we can see what's possible.

Rick

#2 Wed, 20 Mar 2013 - 08:30 68kMLA

Would he be willing to grant permission to have them scanned and uploaded? As they're reconstructed by him, and not Apple-original copyright, it would be legit, and a load easier to get his permission than Apple's.

#3 Wed, 20 Mar 2013 - 11:21 68kMLA

I'm sure the docs are legit, but I doubt the owner would want to release them to public domain as they are part of a former business that he owns. PM for details if interested.

Rick

#4 Wed, 20 Mar 2013 - 12:17 68kMLA

Definitely interested.

#5 Wed, 20 Mar 2013 - 14:20 68kMLA

pm'd sent address. they can be sent to me. Then i can get them to you guys.

#6 Wed, 20 Mar 2013 - 17:48 68kMLA

Does he have schematics for the IIci case itself? Or is it strictly electronics? I was thinking of making a custom reproduction case using a CNC router and some transparent plastic.

#7 Wed, 20 Mar 2013 - 23:49 68kMLA

Aren't the mainboards multilayered? How does one reverse engineer those?

#8 Thu, 21 Mar 2013 - 00:18 68kMLA

It's http://www.bomarc.org/

I've purchased several schematics from him. He's a great guy, the schematics have been accurate for everything I've used them for, and the prices aren't outrageous. Rather than scanning and sharing them, they are still for sale and reasonably priced IMO.

#9 Thu, 21 Mar 2013 - 01:00 68kMLA

Does he have schematics for the IIci case itself? Or is it strictly electronics?

Electronics only AFAIK, and not PCB files (layouts would be copyright)

Rather than scanning and sharing them, they are still for sale and reasonably priced IMO.

Agree with bbraun - the guy should not be ripped off as he invested years into that work and you would not want to kill the goose that lays golden eggs. It's just that anyone outside USA can only purchase via somebody in USA. I'm following up PMs thanks.

Rick

#10 Fri, 22 Mar 2013 - 17:48 68kMLA

As they're reconstructed by him, and not Apple-original copyright, it would be legit, and a load easier to get his permission than Apple's.

Although it's not usually legal to reverse-engineer something in the first place.

#11 Fri, 22 Mar 2013 - 17:53 68kMLA

If you would like a IIsi OOM i can sell you one for a great deal.

let me know.

OOM- Read this graphic: substitute boss with mod.

boss_is_always_right.gif.f03823eeca0293a4e4386cc82fedd1fc.gif

#12 Fri, 22 Mar 2013 - 20:04 68kMLA

As they're reconstructed by him, and not Apple-original copyright, it would be legit, and a load easier to get his permission than Apple's.

Click to expand...

Although it's not usually legal to reverse-engineer something in the first place.

Only if you violate copyright or trademark. Clean Room reverse engineering is legal for the most part, it's how we got the first IBM PC compatibles.

#13 Fri, 22 Mar 2013 - 22:39 68kMLA

Well I haven't seen the product yet, but what I am expecting is not reverse-engineered layouts for the dies of proprietary chips. AFAIK this small operation did not work with clean-rooms and electron microscopes, just painstaking buzzing out of circuits, notation and deduction of values, and analysis of functions to chip pinouts. So a functional schematic created that way should not be any kind of copyright violation. Mind you, the intellectual property speculation mafia have been quite successful at convincing dumb judges and juries that you can patent a passing thought scribbled on a napkin.

Rick

#14 Sat, 23 Mar 2013 - 09:20 68kMLA

Although it's not usually legal to reverse-engineer something in the first place.

Where on earth did you get that impression?

I agree with RickNel here, now that I have more information. This guy deserves a few bucks for his hard work.

#15 Sat, 23 Mar 2013 - 14:45 68kMLA

A schematic is a street map of the board. It shows the lanes and alleys that connect buildings, but not the layouts of the buildings.

#16 Sat, 23 Mar 2013 - 14:59 68kMLA

Clean room reverse engineering of code is legal, copying code is not. This usually pertains to OS and Firmware cloning. Schematics don't even remotely resemble a PCB layout, which is subject to copyright.

#17 Sat, 23 Mar 2013 - 17:04 68kMLA

This was said already but I am going to say it again.

Please respect this guy and his work. Do not go and just pass them out everywhere. I understand that having information available may be nice, but to be perfectly blunt 98% of the people on this forum are not doing anything that would require these schematics.

I understand that communities like to preserve things, but again, if it is still available for sale then chances are it is going to be reasonably safe.

#18 Tue, 26 Mar 2013 - 17:45 68kMLA

Although it's not usually legal to reverse-engineer something in the first place.

Click to expand...

Where on earth did you get that impression?

From software/hardware copyright notices:

You cannot redistribute, copy, or reverse-engineer (alternatively decompile) this software/hardware without prior permission.

#19 Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 09:00 68kMLA

That's a very strict and narrow usage of the phrase "reverse engineer" though, to mean directly stealing someone else's code and/or design. That's not the generally accepted meaning of the phrase.

#20 Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 17:04 68kMLA

Please respect this guy and his work. Do not go and just pass them out everywhere. I understand that having information available may be nice, but to be perfectly blunt 98% of the people on this forum are not doing anything that would require these schematics.

Amen to that, comrade. I offered my mail drop specifically to limit distribution. I'm glad it's going direct. How much are the schematics anyway?

@ Bunsen: reverse engineering to clone/undercut an existing product is considered bad form in general, I think.

#21 Sat, 6 Apr 2013 - 00:36 68kMLA

Aren't the mainboards multilayered? How does one reverse engineer those?

I've done it, although not with anything as complex as a whole motherboard. I x-ray the PCB, use a multimeter, visual inspection, datasheets for the ICs, and a bit of intuition. It takes a lot of patience and a good eye but it's certainly possible. If you don't care about reusing the board, removing many of the parts makes it easier to see what's going on with the traces. Most of the time there isn't much on the inner layers besides ground and power planes, most of the traces connecting parts are on the surface.

If the guy is willing to part with the schematics, what harm is there in scanning and posting them somewhere? There is no commercial value in schematics for 20-30 year old computers, the only people interested will be hobbyists trying to keep vintage machines going.

#22 Sat, 6 Apr 2013 - 01:12 68kMLA

There is no commercial value in schematics for 20-30 year old computers, the only people interested will be hobbyists trying to keep vintage machines going.

In this case, the author of the schematics still has direct commercial interest - he is selling them himself actively at the link posted above by bbraun...

#23 Sat, 6 Apr 2013 - 03:14 68kMLA

And I don't think his prices are too bad - $1.50 per sheet. Most of the Macs are 10-12 sheets (I think the 840av is the largest at 21 sheets).

#24 Sat, 6 Apr 2013 - 08:58 68kMLA

what harm is there in scanning and posting them somewhere?

Are you even remotely serious? You just went through a paragraph describing the amount of work involved in buzzing out simpler boards, and you want to dick this guy out of $1.50 a sheet for his work - against his express, legally enforceable wishes?

Man, apart from having a terrible understanding of how copyright works, you're just plain rude.

#25 Sat, 6 Apr 2013 - 09:03 68kMLA

To be honest, I wasn't expecting his prices to be so low.