Thread
Can't get Quadra 650 SCSI set up.
I can't get my Quadra 650 to recognise its CD drive or the 80pin drive i added. I managed to get a 7.5 network access disk made on my old windows 98se computer, so it does boot.
Not sure if its the 50 pin cable or a termination problem. This is my first Macintosh of any kind, not related but i also have an Apple II E Enhanced. I have a Macintosh Color Display for the Quadra which does work fine.
The HDD and Optical drive spin up and get power. I'm using a 80pin to 64/50pin adapter. Also i was told 8.1 would be okay on an 040 as long as i had enough ram.
Not sure if its the 50 pin cable or a termination problem. This is my first Macintosh of any kind, not related but i also have an Apple II E Enhanced. I have a Macintosh Color Display for the Quadra which does work fine.
The HDD and Optical drive spin up and get power. I'm using a 80pin to 64/50pin adapter. Also i was told 8.1 would be okay on an 040 as long as i had enough ram.
First your cd rom has scsi I'd set as 0 and 1. 0 is the main hard disk ID, so remove that jumper. Termination on the chain is always the way to go so termination power jumper is correct there. Ill look into the hard drive but the cd rom for sure to start is an issue. Also the cd rom may need a Mac driver if it isn't apple branded.
That my friend is the original CD drive for the Quadra 650, it's back in the computer now but i believe its a 2x speed drive Apple 300 plus if that helps.
Ok that drive is huge and disk tools or a formatting software must be used to even see it. It must be initialized, partitioned into 2 gb sections or less. Hard disk tool kit may work if the disk tools disk can't see it. Since its your first Mac I suggest finding someone who is close on the forums to help you as you will need software you don't have.
Good Luck.
Good Luck.
Did the cd drive operate from the beginning? That's good it's an apple drive so its bootable. The reason I asked if it worked from the get go is the ID jumpers should not have two ID's set.
Even without the HDD, the CD Drive should boot from disc without a hard drive by holding C at boot. Will i be able to get the hard drive formatted without using another Mac? SCSI! i'm glad i use a regular IDE CF adapter in my Amiga 1200.
Cheers for the help.
EDIT: Yeah the drive never booted at all, i know the drive gets power. It came only without a HDD, i just imagined the CD drive would be set correctly. The Seagate drive thats 80pin is what i had to hand without spending lots of money on a 50pin drive.
Cheers for the help.
EDIT: Yeah the drive never booted at all, i know the drive gets power. It came only without a HDD, i just imagined the CD drive would be set correctly. The Seagate drive thats 80pin is what i had to hand without spending lots of money on a 50pin drive.
That's why I asked if the cd drive worked from the start also. It may just be dead it is like twenty years old. I mean mine are fifty fifty on working so its a toss up on yours working. With two scsi IDs set it will not boot off CD. It will fail to do anything. All scsi pieces must have a single unique scsi ID. Hard drive is zero all else are higher.
The hard drive may not need I'd set as bus may or may not set its ID to zero. You can try both way as one way will work the other wont. Of course terminate the drive.
http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/scsi/75789506g.pdf
Manual for the HDD, i forgot i had it bookmarked. I've set the jumper to 0.
Manual for the HDD, i forgot i had it bookmarked. I've set the jumper to 0.
alright i set the cd drive to ID1 and still nothing
It shouldn't matter what SCSI ID you have your drives set to as long as they are different. Have you tried setting the hard drive to 1 and the CD-ROM to 2? Also some SCSI hard drives have a termination power jumper as well, it may be on your adapter board. I'd remove that on the hard drive but leave it on the CD-ROM so that the last device in your chain is terminated.
There seems to be a little confusion about how one sets a SCSI ID.
The jumpers, ID0, ID1 and ID2 are the three bits, 0, 1, 2 of the SCSI ID. With three bits, one may count from 0 to 7.
So, if you put a jumper on ID0, you have ID = 1. If you put a jumper on ID1, you have ID = 2. If you put a jumper on ID2, you have ID = 4. Put jumpers on all three and you have ID = 1 + 2 + 4 = 7, which is bad, because the host of the SCSI bus is usually 7.
In the photo, you have a jumper on parity, which the Macintosh won't care about one way or the other, and jumpers on ID0 and ID1, which gives you a setting of ID = 3. This is the typical SCSI ID used for a CDROM drive on the Mac, and as such was just fine.
However, the CDROM drive does not have any provision for providing SCSI termination. At least, none that is documented. It is entirely possible that Toshiba built termination enable into the unlabeled jumper on the drive, but left it unlabeled because Apple did not want it.
Apple tended to supply termination by providing a four position SCSI cable, putting the hard drive and CDROM drive on two of the connectors, and a cable terminator on the third. The logic board connector gets the fourth, of course.
So, I see two avenues open to you. First, see if you can find a Toshiba part number on the drive (something like XM7nnn, most likely) and if so, try to find an old datasheet/manual for that drive. Failing that, get an internal 50 pin IDC (IDC is the type of connector) connector terminator which you can put on an unused connector on your SCSI cable. Then plug one end of the SCSI cable into the logic board. Plug the terminator into the other end of your SCSI cable. Plug your CDROM drive into one of the connectors in between those two.
Do not enable Termination Power on the CDROM drive. It is already supplied by the Macintosh logic board and supplying it from more than one device can create voltage contention issues which may prevent the SCSI bus from working.
Now, test the CDROM drive to see if the Mac will see it. Holding down the C key at boot, specifically looks for a device at ID3. So if you tried to boot in this manner, with the CDROM set to a different ID, it probably wouldn't work (not sure if the machine will seek other SCSI IDs after it fails to find anything at ID = 3).
You will need a bootable CDROM for this test. As long as the CDROM drive is Apple branded, any bootable CDROM should do the trick.
After you get things sorted out with the CDROM drive, try adding the hard drive to the cable and see if it works. However, unless you got a SCA to 50 pin adapter which actually has termination on board (none of the < $20 ones do) then you way have termination issues with the adapted SCA drive.
Even though your cable is now properly terminated, the problem is that the upper 8 bits of your wide SCA drive are not terminated. They are not connected to anything, so there is no way for them to be terminated. Without an adapter which is selectively able to terminate just the upper data byte, there is no way to terminate the upper bits. However, despite that, a cheaply adapted SCA drive will usually work anyway, provided that the bottom 8 bits and control lines (50 wires on SCSI ribbon) are properly terminated.
The jumpers, ID0, ID1 and ID2 are the three bits, 0, 1, 2 of the SCSI ID. With three bits, one may count from 0 to 7.
So, if you put a jumper on ID0, you have ID = 1. If you put a jumper on ID1, you have ID = 2. If you put a jumper on ID2, you have ID = 4. Put jumpers on all three and you have ID = 1 + 2 + 4 = 7, which is bad, because the host of the SCSI bus is usually 7.
In the photo, you have a jumper on parity, which the Macintosh won't care about one way or the other, and jumpers on ID0 and ID1, which gives you a setting of ID = 3. This is the typical SCSI ID used for a CDROM drive on the Mac, and as such was just fine.
However, the CDROM drive does not have any provision for providing SCSI termination. At least, none that is documented. It is entirely possible that Toshiba built termination enable into the unlabeled jumper on the drive, but left it unlabeled because Apple did not want it.
Apple tended to supply termination by providing a four position SCSI cable, putting the hard drive and CDROM drive on two of the connectors, and a cable terminator on the third. The logic board connector gets the fourth, of course.
So, I see two avenues open to you. First, see if you can find a Toshiba part number on the drive (something like XM7nnn, most likely) and if so, try to find an old datasheet/manual for that drive. Failing that, get an internal 50 pin IDC (IDC is the type of connector) connector terminator which you can put on an unused connector on your SCSI cable. Then plug one end of the SCSI cable into the logic board. Plug the terminator into the other end of your SCSI cable. Plug your CDROM drive into one of the connectors in between those two.
Do not enable Termination Power on the CDROM drive. It is already supplied by the Macintosh logic board and supplying it from more than one device can create voltage contention issues which may prevent the SCSI bus from working.
Now, test the CDROM drive to see if the Mac will see it. Holding down the C key at boot, specifically looks for a device at ID3. So if you tried to boot in this manner, with the CDROM set to a different ID, it probably wouldn't work (not sure if the machine will seek other SCSI IDs after it fails to find anything at ID = 3).
You will need a bootable CDROM for this test. As long as the CDROM drive is Apple branded, any bootable CDROM should do the trick.
After you get things sorted out with the CDROM drive, try adding the hard drive to the cable and see if it works. However, unless you got a SCA to 50 pin adapter which actually has termination on board (none of the < $20 ones do) then you way have termination issues with the adapted SCA drive.
Even though your cable is now properly terminated, the problem is that the upper 8 bits of your wide SCA drive are not terminated. They are not connected to anything, so there is no way for them to be terminated. Without an adapter which is selectively able to terminate just the upper data byte, there is no way to terminate the upper bits. However, despite that, a cheaply adapted SCA drive will usually work anyway, provided that the bottom 8 bits and control lines (50 wires on SCSI ribbon) are properly terminated.
The Mac came with a 50 pin cable with 3 connectors, one for the motherboard, 2 for devices; ONLY a CD Drive was connected. I think the stock jumper settings where fine and it wont boot because nothing is terminated. Would i only need to terminate the last device? The CD drive is UNDER the HDD so the HDD is the last device on the "chain".
Yes, the last device in the chain should be terminated. Problem is, SCSI signals bounce back at the end of the connection. The signal then is seen on all devices again, but with a slight time difference, thus smudging all signals. A terminator (basically a resistor) avoids that.
I think all you need to know is in this document:
http://support.apple.com/kb/ta27743
To get a running system, i would buy one Zip100/SCSI and one Zip100/USB. The latter can be used with BasiliskII. Basically you dd a Zip100 medium into a file, format it with a running system inside BasiliskII, slap a MacOS, MacOS installer and hard disk tools on it, and dd it back to the Zip100. Then you boot from that on your Q650, partition the disk (bootable partitions should be within the first 2 GB), install the MacOS system and reboot.
Of course other options exist. Network bootable floppy and a netatalk server with the MacOS installer on it. Or put the HDD into a system where BasiliskII can access it.
I think all you need to know is in this document:
http://support.apple.com/kb/ta27743
To get a running system, i would buy one Zip100/SCSI and one Zip100/USB. The latter can be used with BasiliskII. Basically you dd a Zip100 medium into a file, format it with a running system inside BasiliskII, slap a MacOS, MacOS installer and hard disk tools on it, and dd it back to the Zip100. Then you boot from that on your Q650, partition the disk (bootable partitions should be within the first 2 GB), install the MacOS system and reboot.
Of course other options exist. Network bootable floppy and a netatalk server with the MacOS installer on it. Or put the HDD into a system where BasiliskII can access it.
Can i stick a passthrough terminator right on the SCSI adapter? or do i have to buy a 4 connection cable and stick a terminator on the very end?
If you've got room for both the SCA adapter and an IDC50 passthru terminator, I don't see any problem with that setup.
@trag: I'm glad you got the ID issue straightened out. Nice tidbit on the "C" Key = SCSI ID 3 for boot drive. Is that the same as for using externals with the four-key combo before the advent of internal CDs? Were Aple external CDs customarily set to ID 3?
I've yet to have any termination issues at all with SCA drives. Are U320 drives built with active termination on board for hot-swapping?
@trag: I'm glad you got the ID issue straightened out. Nice tidbit on the "C" Key = SCSI ID 3 for boot drive. Is that the same as for using externals with the four-key combo before the advent of internal CDs? Were Aple external CDs customarily set to ID 3?
I've yet to have any termination issues at all with SCA drives. Are U320 drives built with active termination on board for hot-swapping?
Yeah there is plenty of room for a passthrough terminator and the adapter.
Look what i found
http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/iguides/scsi/89507b.pdf
Look what i found
http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/iguides/scsi/89507b.pdfSo Single Ended means i have to stick a terminator on the last connector meaning i need a new 4 way cable? I'm going to assume whatever drive apple stuck in there had internal termination.
Nope, that may be the way Apple did it, but the same cable with a passthru terminator on the adapter should be fine.
I've got some really nice 68 pin cables set up with the terminator hanging off the end of the cable, but nothing special ought to be necessary for SCSI 1 on the Mac.
Now that I think of it . . . have you tried a different internal cable at all as yet? :?:
I've got some really nice 68 pin cables set up with the terminator hanging off the end of the cable, but nothing special ought to be necessary for SCSI 1 on the Mac.
Now that I think of it . . . have you tried a different internal cable at all as yet? :?:
I've got plenty of PC related stuff like IDE and SATA cables spare, but no SCSI internal 50 pin cables so id have to buy a new one to test. Right i think i'll cost a passthrough terminator. It won't matter if its a 50pin or a 80pin SCA?
As long as the terminator is within (IIRC) 3" of the end of the cable it is within specification. So a passthrough terminator right before the SCA adapter will be fine, provided that the SCA adapter/hard drive.
Depending on the cost of a pass-through terminator, consider getting a good SCA adapter, which can provide termination, instead:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111035026224?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Then all you need is the SCA adapter, and no additional pass-through terminator.
I'd really like to find a SCA adapter like the one I just listed for less than $10. There's not that much difference in component count between it and the $3 ones, but for some reason, the ones which can actually let you configure your SCSI chain properly cost seven times as much.
"Single-Ended" has nothing to do with termination. SCSI went through several versions, starting with just SCSI, then SCSI-2, which included the enhancement Fast SCSI-2, then Ultra-SCSI. After Ultra-SCSI, came Ultra2-SCSI and everything was LVD SCSI, which stands for Low Voltage Differential.
Everything which is not LVD SCSI is Single-Ended (SE) SCSI. Only, we never called it that, because we didn't really need a special name for it, until LVD became common. Until LVD came along there was nothing to distinguish early SCSI from (except early differential SCSI of HVD SCSI, but everyone has happily forgotten about that).
The reason why SCSI is separated into early SE SCSI and later LVD SCSI is because the analog method of sending the digital signals changed. In single ended SCSI each signal just has one wire. The electronics compare that wire against GND and determine whether it is low or high (0 or 1). But low and high are kind murky. Low might be anything under 2V. High might be anything over 3V. The range in between might be uncertain, or different for each wire.
In low voltage differential SCSI, each signal has two wires. For a 1 one wire is high and the other low. For a 0 the previous situation is reversed. There is no GND, which just sits at 0 all the time, involved in the signal. The electronics have a much easier time comparing these two wires, and just deciding which is higher in order to determine 0 or 1.
So old SCSI is Single Ended. Only 1 wire changes to indicate the data value. Newer SCSI is differential. Two wires are compared (the difference is found) and their relative state determines the value of the data. Newer SCSI is usually built so that it is capable of using the old signaling method. The second wire for each signal just becomes a GND wire and the signal wire is interpreted the old way.
Newer SCSI is also called "low voltage" because it uses a lower signaling voltage for its differential signals than the older and mostly forgotten, original differential SCSI. If we had never had old differential SCSI we'd probably just call the new stuff "differential" and leave off the LV.
There's a wealth of information here: http://www.scsifaq.org Or, there used to be. I haven't read the site in a long time to see if it is still good. But these old UseNet derived FAQ sites don't usually change much.
Strangely, the Wikipedia article doesn't reference it. But then the Wiki article gets a few other things about SCSI wrong too.
Depending on the cost of a pass-through terminator, consider getting a good SCA adapter, which can provide termination, instead:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111035026224?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Then all you need is the SCA adapter, and no additional pass-through terminator.
I'd really like to find a SCA adapter like the one I just listed for less than $10. There's not that much difference in component count between it and the $3 ones, but for some reason, the ones which can actually let you configure your SCSI chain properly cost seven times as much.
"Single-Ended" has nothing to do with termination. SCSI went through several versions, starting with just SCSI, then SCSI-2, which included the enhancement Fast SCSI-2, then Ultra-SCSI. After Ultra-SCSI, came Ultra2-SCSI and everything was LVD SCSI, which stands for Low Voltage Differential.
Everything which is not LVD SCSI is Single-Ended (SE) SCSI. Only, we never called it that, because we didn't really need a special name for it, until LVD became common. Until LVD came along there was nothing to distinguish early SCSI from (except early differential SCSI of HVD SCSI, but everyone has happily forgotten about that).
The reason why SCSI is separated into early SE SCSI and later LVD SCSI is because the analog method of sending the digital signals changed. In single ended SCSI each signal just has one wire. The electronics compare that wire against GND and determine whether it is low or high (0 or 1). But low and high are kind murky. Low might be anything under 2V. High might be anything over 3V. The range in between might be uncertain, or different for each wire.
In low voltage differential SCSI, each signal has two wires. For a 1 one wire is high and the other low. For a 0 the previous situation is reversed. There is no GND, which just sits at 0 all the time, involved in the signal. The electronics have a much easier time comparing these two wires, and just deciding which is higher in order to determine 0 or 1.
So old SCSI is Single Ended. Only 1 wire changes to indicate the data value. Newer SCSI is differential. Two wires are compared (the difference is found) and their relative state determines the value of the data. Newer SCSI is usually built so that it is capable of using the old signaling method. The second wire for each signal just becomes a GND wire and the signal wire is interpreted the old way.
Newer SCSI is also called "low voltage" because it uses a lower signaling voltage for its differential signals than the older and mostly forgotten, original differential SCSI. If we had never had old differential SCSI we'd probably just call the new stuff "differential" and leave off the LV.
There's a wealth of information here: http://www.scsifaq.org Or, there used to be. I haven't read the site in a long time to see if it is still good. But these old UseNet derived FAQ sites don't usually change much.
Strangely, the Wikipedia article doesn't reference it. But then the Wiki article gets a few other things about SCSI wrong too.
I ended up buying a 50 pin passthrough terminator, it worked out cheaper. Well just got to wait now, I've retrobrite by keyboard and adb mouse so i might do the case next while its not in use. I used creme peroxide to do the "retrobrite".
How does one harvest UV radiation during this time of year in the UK? :lol:
Hehe yeah we're known for dull weather. The peroxide doesn't dry out because its not hot, but theres plenty of light recently between the rain lol. Since it doesn't dry out easily i can leave items out longer.
I'm really annoyed with this, the 50 pin pass through terminator i bought came in the mail today and so i installed it. It does F**K all! Really i have no idea why this thing wont boot from CD now. The HDD not being apple or formatted at the moment should not be a problem for the CD drive to boot.
What next?
EDIT: Okay so i'm thinking it has to be the SCSI cable itself. I swapped the hard drive and cd drive around, just the same. I can't have them set up that way as they don't fit in the case like that, HDD cage is on top of the CD drive.
What next?
EDIT: Okay so i'm thinking it has to be the SCSI cable itself. I swapped the hard drive and cd drive around, just the same. I can't have them set up that way as they don't fit in the case like that, HDD cage is on top of the CD drive.
If i make sure the last and first device are terminated could i leave a connector free (no device)? or am i better to buy a 2 device cable for the HDD and CD Drive. I know the first connection is to the mobo and its already terminated.
It's fine to leave empty connectors on the cable. Leave middle connectors empty. Always have terminated devices on the connectors at the two ends.
If I was you, I would try just the CDROM drive with the pass-through terminator on the last connector on the cable. See if you can boot at all. Once you get that working, you can look at adding the hard drive into the mix.
If I was you, I would try just the CDROM drive with the pass-through terminator on the last connector on the cable. See if you can boot at all. Once you get that working, you can look at adding the hard drive into the mix.
Battery was not burst, but it was rusted and dead so i took it out; glad i found it so no damage can be done. STILL I HAVE NO IDEA about why it wont boot from CD. My drive ejects but doesn't read discs.
Ive tried just the passthrough adapter on one end, tried a brand new cable. Bought a new CPC Lithium battery on ebay, 1/2 AA 3.6v so waiting for that to arrive.
Im going to try the cable again just to make sure, but im only getting the flashing ? logo unless i use a disk.
I held the key combo to boot from a specific SCSI ID and it did nothing.
Ive tried just the passthrough adapter on one end, tried a brand new cable. Bought a new CPC Lithium battery on ebay, 1/2 AA 3.6v so waiting for that to arrive.
Im going to try the cable again just to make sure, but im only getting the flashing ? logo unless i use a disk.
I held the key combo to boot from a specific SCSI ID and it did nothing.
Okay the new battery i dont even know if it did anything but its fitted.
Thanks for all the help guys i appreciate it, but i think im going to give up on this. The only things left i think are to get a new CD drive or try another terminator and SCSI cable with only the terminator at the end.
Thanks for all the help guys i appreciate it, but i think im going to give up on this. The only things left i think are to get a new CD drive or try another terminator and SCSI cable with only the terminator at the end.
I need a boot disk image that has CD drivers so i can test to see if the CD Drive is working. The Macintosh might not even be able to boot from CD at startup, this is why i need a floppy to test.
Better late than never. Finally got it set up, i just installed OS 8.1 because it was easier than 7.6.
What happened is that i bought a Macintosh Classic II and a 500gb Apple hard drive 25 pin ect, never used it in the Classic II so i stuck it in the Quadra 650.
LOL first time i booted the CD i got 7 drives because it thinks i had set 7 scsi devices, so i had to go back and change the jumpers. The CD drive works perfect so it must have been a SCSI problem with termination with the 80pin drive.
What happened is that i bought a Macintosh Classic II and a 500gb Apple hard drive 25 pin ect, never used it in the Classic II so i stuck it in the Quadra 650.
LOL first time i booted the CD i got 7 drives because it thinks i had set 7 scsi devices, so i had to go back and change the jumpers. The CD drive works perfect so it must have been a SCSI problem with termination with the 80pin drive.