Thread
Two Requests
I don't have a machine that is capable of doing the feats listed below at the present time, so I thought I'd ask for some help. (This is for the Guide.)
1.) Can a Mac with an internal floppy drive, like a Molar Mac, when booted into OS X such as Jaguar, recognize 800K disks? I heard that OS X does not support 800K disks, and I also heard that Mac OS X Server 10.0 and 10.1 can read them only. But I'd like to know for sure on the real thing. I'm pretty sure Molar Macs and machines like the beige G3 series with internal FDDs can work with 800Ks in OS 9.
2.) Can a Mac running System 6 connect to OS X 10.3.9 over Ethernet and MacTCP? I've heard that Jaguar is the last to speak "Old AppleTalk" but I'd like to tick off that box concerning 10.3 on the Chart. System 7.0.1 should be able to do it, but I've never known myself as I've never even owned 10.3.
I'd appreciate the help, surely!
1.) Can a Mac with an internal floppy drive, like a Molar Mac, when booted into OS X such as Jaguar, recognize 800K disks? I heard that OS X does not support 800K disks, and I also heard that Mac OS X Server 10.0 and 10.1 can read them only. But I'd like to know for sure on the real thing. I'm pretty sure Molar Macs and machines like the beige G3 series with internal FDDs can work with 800Ks in OS 9.
2.) Can a Mac running System 6 connect to OS X 10.3.9 over Ethernet and MacTCP? I've heard that Jaguar is the last to speak "Old AppleTalk" but I'd like to tick off that box concerning 10.3 on the Chart. System 7.0.1 should be able to do it, but I've never known myself as I've never even owned 10.3.
I'd appreciate the help, surely!
I can try the 6.0.8 to 10.3.9 setup, I am just not on the ball with getting 6.0.8 and MacTCP setup correctly on my SE :-( It's running 7.1 ATM. I have 6.0.8 on a zip but that install is not setup for networking.
OS X does not natively support the SWIM floppy controller in pre-iMac Macs. Thus, by default, it cannot read *ANY* disk in an internal floppy (like in a Molar Mac.)
An 800 kB disk will work fine booted into OS 9.
There was a project that ported a MkLinux floppy driver to OS X, but it was very buggy and insanely slow.
Hey, a quick search turns up my writeup on it from five years ago.
USB floppy drives work fine, but only with HD floppies, not 800k Apple floppies.
An 800 kB disk will work fine booted into OS 9.
There was a project that ported a MkLinux floppy driver to OS X, but it was very buggy and insanely slow.
Hey, a quick search turns up my writeup on it from five years ago.
USB floppy drives work fine, but only with HD floppies, not 800k Apple floppies.
Great info. I've been obsessively tracking down all sorts of info to make the section on Disk Images extra-comprehensive.
I take it this also includes the floppy bay module for the G3 PowerBook series like the Wallstreet? Does that module also read 800Ks under OS 9?
Use a System 6.0.8 NAD. One of the best recovery disks I've ever made.
I have even made 6.0.8 NADs with 800K disks (2), with a full finder and features. It's a bit tricky, but completely possible.
Every floppy drive that shipped directly from Apple internal to a Macintosh (barring the very earliest 400k drives, of course,) can read and write 800k disks when booted directly into the classic Mac OS. But it must be an Apple-original. The VST expansion-bay floppy drive is actually a 120 MB "SuperDisk" drive, which can NOT read 800k floppies.
Really? I thought it was just a conventional 1.44MB drive?
Color me surprised. Correction will be forthcoming...AFIAK the only "external module floppy drive" for any Old World Mac was the module for the PowerBook Duo. Am I correct? All the others had it either built in or didn't have an option for it at all -- the external floppy port stopped with the Mac II series and AFAIK the Color Classic doesn't have one. There might be a PowerBook that doesn't have an internal drive, but requires an external, and said external has 800K support -- but I wouldn't know for Macs other than the Duo series.
Right now I'm planning the next major update to the Guide. Reordering and restructuring, followed by condensing to make it shorter and more concise. In the beginning it was about all-out horizontal and vertical growth, but I'll be making efforts to trim it down considerably while still covering just about everything.
Can anybody else check out 10.3 compatibility for me?
Color me surprised. Correction will be forthcoming...AFIAK the only "external module floppy drive" for any Old World Mac was the module for the PowerBook Duo. Am I correct? All the others had it either built in or didn't have an option for it at all -- the external floppy port stopped with the Mac II series and AFAIK the Color Classic doesn't have one. There might be a PowerBook that doesn't have an internal drive, but requires an external, and said external has 800K support -- but I wouldn't know for Macs other than the Duo series.
Right now I'm planning the next major update to the Guide. Reordering and restructuring, followed by condensing to make it shorter and more concise. In the beginning it was about all-out horizontal and vertical growth, but I'll be making efforts to trim it down considerably while still covering just about everything.
Can anybody else check out 10.3 compatibility for me?
I'm setting up 6.0.8 tonight so I will know or not if it works.
What all do you want tested?
Just file sharing back and forth over appletalk?
Screenshots of either?
(besides the writeup of my findings of course)
What all do you want tested?
Just file sharing back and forth over appletalk?
Screenshots of either?
(besides the writeup of my findings of course)
If it shows up in the Chooser, that is usually good -- but not always (*looks over at OS X Tiger*).
A quick upload and download should be fine. See if there's read/write access -- IIRC in System 6 with my test of Jaguar I didn't always have write access. Check the section on Jaguar if need be -- you'll most likely have to enable "use_appletalk" as per 10.2.
System 6 cannot be mounted by the Panther system onto to the Panther's desktop -- it's a client only. Do me a favor and check if Panther can mount System 7.0.1/7.1 on Panther's desktop and xfer files.
A quick upload and download should be fine. See if there's read/write access -- IIRC in System 6 with my test of Jaguar I didn't always have write access. Check the section on Jaguar if need be -- you'll most likely have to enable "use_appletalk" as per 10.2.
System 6 cannot be mounted by the Panther system onto to the Panther's desktop -- it's a client only. Do me a favor and check if Panther can mount System 7.0.1/7.1 on Panther's desktop and xfer files.
Still trying to get System 6 to play Nice with a Farallon EtherMac SE.. in 7.1 I have to use "Ethernet Built-In" for any kind of connection to work. That option/driver isn't on NSI 1.4.5 so I'm trying to get it from the 1.5.1 disk over to 6.0.8.
In the meantime, Pantera/G3 sees my SE "Maxine" under network. Click on it and asks for authentication. After entering password, it shows the SE's Hard drive and asks to mount it. Click OK and nothing happens, the window just dissapears. I hear the SE crank for a second but no connection is made.
Going the other way, 7.1/SE under chooser, shows my 'Pantera Macintosh'. Click on it to connect and it says that the server is running an incompatible version of appletalk. It's 10.3.9.
I'm guessing (from the patch notes) that in the 10.3.6 update they made a change to AFP protocol that made it incompatible. I wish I could roll back the 10.3.9 update and check.
Will post back once I get (If I can get) System 6 online.
It gets really hot in a small room with a G3/SE/PC and macbook all doing things.. heh
In the meantime, Pantera/G3 sees my SE "Maxine" under network. Click on it and asks for authentication. After entering password, it shows the SE's Hard drive and asks to mount it. Click OK and nothing happens, the window just dissapears. I hear the SE crank for a second but no connection is made.
Going the other way, 7.1/SE under chooser, shows my 'Pantera Macintosh'. Click on it to connect and it says that the server is running an incompatible version of appletalk. It's 10.3.9.
I'm guessing (from the patch notes) that in the 10.3.6 update they made a change to AFP protocol that made it incompatible. I wish I could roll back the 10.3.9 update and check.
Will post back once I get (If I can get) System 6 online.
It gets really hot in a small room with a G3/SE/PC and macbook all doing things.. heh
I got the files copied over but System 6 doesn't like this NIC card.
I'm guessing since it was made in 1994, 6 might be too old?
It works just fine in system 7, maybe it requires it?
I really hope someone else chimes in and you get the answers you are looking for.
(On a side note, system 8.6<=>7.1 with no issues on the same two computers.)
I'm guessing since it was made in 1994, 6 might be too old?
It works just fine in system 7, maybe it requires it?
I really hope someone else chimes in and you get the answers you are looking for.
(On a side note, system 8.6<=>7.1 with no issues on the same two computers.)
I haven't had coffee yet, so I'm not sure I understand the question . . .
Does the "Duo" FDD have 800k support? It actually dates back to the PowerBook 100 with its onboard FDD controller. I wonder if that might support 800k floppies? I haven't got the DevNote for the PB100 handy, but the Luggable had a discrete SWIM chip, if SWIM was gobbled up by an ASIC in the 100, then that might be a dead end as well.
I'd add the 2400 to the FDD free 'Book list as well, but I've no experience with that one.
Does the "Duo" FDD have 800k support? It actually dates back to the PowerBook 100 with its onboard FDD controller. I wonder if that might support 800k floppies? I haven't got the DevNote for the PB100 handy, but the Luggable had a discrete SWIM chip, if SWIM was gobbled up by an ASIC in the 100, then that might be a dead end as well.
I'd add the 2400 to the FDD free 'Book list as well, but I've no experience with that one.
Hmmm.
Here's what you can do. (I'm under the assumption the SE has a 1.44 drive.)
Start up with a plain basic System 6 floppy disk. Even better if you have two floppies available. Then get ahold of RAMDisk+ 2.01 and use it to create a ~1.5MB RAM disk. (Assuming you have 4MB RAM, which is a pitifully easy thing to achieve these days.) Next, make the RAMDisk bootable, and hotswap over to it. Take a fresh formatted 1.44 and install a basic installation of System 6 on it, selecting "Installation for the Macintosh SE". Make another disk just like it, so you end up with two fresh 6.0.8 bootable floppies.
Now, get ahold of AS WS 3.5. Install it onto both floppies. Next, take 1.4.5 and you'll note that you have the option of "Ethernet NB" and "EtherTalk". Install "Ethernet NB" on one disk and "EtherTalk" on to the other disk.
Repeat the 10.3 trails and see what happens. If it still fails, then if you have the Farallon install disk, try that. If you don't, I can't say where to get one within the rules of the forum but I have a backup of mine that came with the former SE/30's Farallon Ethermac card.
RE: Duo floppies:
This will be slightly interesting because the Duo 230/100 (which was not long ago converted back into a 2300cTB) appears to have some slight Mobo issues. The first is that zTerm .9 is hiccuping over the serial ports, which is an obstacle for my Serial Data Transfer project. This means the modem port (and I installed the internal modem software just yesterday, still doesn't work) and the GeoPort isn't playing nice at all, even with AppleTalk off.
So, awhile back I was very interested in fixing a mistake I made on the DC 4.2 version of AS 1.1 for the 512K/512Ke 400K boot disk. So I knew that 7.5 was the last to write to 400K disks, so I tried "fixing it" and the machine froze when copying data to a new 400K disk I had formatted on the SE/30 when I still had it. (This'll have to wait for another machine to solve this problem.)
As far as 800Ks go though, it reads them perfectly fine.
But awhile back I was also strongly interested to know if a 400K disk could be written without actually having 7.5. So I installed 8.1, which cannot even read 400K MFS disks entirely, and wrote some 400K MFS disk image I had laying around. Rebooted into 7.6.1 which can read 400K MFS only, and it worked perfectly fine, aside from the usual System 7 "issues".
If I hadn't relieved myself of that 100MB SCSI 2.5" HDD that came with a certain Duo 230, I could check under 7.1, but I guarantee that the Duo disk drive will read 400K MFS disks given the proper system version.
Here's what you can do. (I'm under the assumption the SE has a 1.44 drive.)
Start up with a plain basic System 6 floppy disk. Even better if you have two floppies available. Then get ahold of RAMDisk+ 2.01 and use it to create a ~1.5MB RAM disk. (Assuming you have 4MB RAM, which is a pitifully easy thing to achieve these days.) Next, make the RAMDisk bootable, and hotswap over to it. Take a fresh formatted 1.44 and install a basic installation of System 6 on it, selecting "Installation for the Macintosh SE". Make another disk just like it, so you end up with two fresh 6.0.8 bootable floppies.
Now, get ahold of AS WS 3.5. Install it onto both floppies. Next, take 1.4.5 and you'll note that you have the option of "Ethernet NB" and "EtherTalk". Install "Ethernet NB" on one disk and "EtherTalk" on to the other disk.
Repeat the 10.3 trails and see what happens. If it still fails, then if you have the Farallon install disk, try that. If you don't, I can't say where to get one within the rules of the forum but I have a backup of mine that came with the former SE/30's Farallon Ethermac card.
RE: Duo floppies:
This will be slightly interesting because the Duo 230/100 (which was not long ago converted back into a 2300cTB) appears to have some slight Mobo issues. The first is that zTerm .9 is hiccuping over the serial ports, which is an obstacle for my Serial Data Transfer project. This means the modem port (and I installed the internal modem software just yesterday, still doesn't work) and the GeoPort isn't playing nice at all, even with AppleTalk off.
So, awhile back I was very interested in fixing a mistake I made on the DC 4.2 version of AS 1.1 for the 512K/512Ke 400K boot disk. So I knew that 7.5 was the last to write to 400K disks, so I tried "fixing it" and the machine froze when copying data to a new 400K disk I had formatted on the SE/30 when I still had it. (This'll have to wait for another machine to solve this problem.)
As far as 800Ks go though, it reads them perfectly fine.
But awhile back I was also strongly interested to know if a 400K disk could be written without actually having 7.5. So I installed 8.1, which cannot even read 400K MFS disks entirely, and wrote some 400K MFS disk image I had laying around. Rebooted into 7.6.1 which can read 400K MFS only, and it worked perfectly fine, aside from the usual System 7 "issues".
If I hadn't relieved myself of that 100MB SCSI 2.5" HDD that came with a certain Duo 230, I could check under 7.1, but I guarantee that the Duo disk drive will read 400K MFS disks given the proper system version.
Ah, yes. Sorry, I was only referring to very late Macs with floppy drives.
Apple-made "Superdrive" externals also work with both 1.4 MB and 800 k disks:
- The (rare) standard desktop-port Superdrive external floppy drives. It only works with 1.4 MB disks with a very few systems - ones that both have an internal Superdrive AND have an external floppy port, such as the SE Superdrive, SE/30, Classic, IIx, IIci. HOWEVER - *ANY* system compatible with an 800k external drive can use it to read/write 800k (and 400k) floppy disks.
The "Duo" drive, which is the same drive as used on the PowerBook 100.
The PowerBook 2400C external drive.
@Mk.558
What "guide" is this we're talking about? Sounds interesting.
What "guide" is this we're talking about? Sounds interesting.
The module for the 3400c is a conventional 800K-capable drive too, right? The PB G3 series is the only one that has that SuperDISK type module?
Request #3:
More information on Netatalk, compiling it from source and setting it up to be used with MacTCP. I only was able to get Netatalk working with OT 1.3. I emailed the netatalk-dev team and got nothing useful.
http://www.lyonlabs.org/macintosh/index.html
I know it's possible, but the steps are extremely elusive. I emailed Mr. Holmer last month and he said he'd be picking up an SE/30 ( :approve: ) but I fired off another email last week and haven't heard anything back.
Request #3:
More information on Netatalk, compiling it from source and setting it up to be used with MacTCP. I only was able to get Netatalk working with OT 1.3. I emailed the netatalk-dev team and got nothing useful.
http://www.lyonlabs.org/macintosh/index.html
I know it's possible, but the steps are extremely elusive. I emailed Mr. Holmer last month and he said he'd be picking up an SE/30 ( :approve: ) but I fired off another email last week and haven't heard anything back.
Anybody else want to take a crack at this?
One option is to start with a bare-bones basic 10.3.0, and incrementally upgrade it all the way up, 10.3.1, 10.3.3, etc up to 10.3.9.
One option is to start with a bare-bones basic 10.3.0, and incrementally upgrade it all the way up, 10.3.1, 10.3.3, etc up to 10.3.9.
Yes, Jaguar (10.2) was the last OS X variant to speak pure AppleTalk when it came to file sharing. I think Panther (10.3) could use AppleTalk for discovery, but the subsequent connection was made with TCP/IP, requiring a Mac with 7.5., and a minimum version of Open Transport and the AppleShare client.
AppleTalk remained in 10.3 to 10.5, but was really only there for printing.
AppleTalk remained in 10.3 to 10.5, but was really only there for printing.
Just to clarify:
The Powerbook G3 shipped with an original Apple floppy drive removable drive bay cartridge (which can read/write 800k Apple floppies under OS 9 and earlier), and there was also a third party SuperDisk cartridge from VST (which can only read 1.4MB floppies and the proprietary 100MB SuperDisks).
The Powerbook G3 shipped with an original Apple floppy drive removable drive bay cartridge (which can read/write 800k Apple floppies under OS 9 and earlier), and there was also a third party SuperDisk cartridge from VST (which can only read 1.4MB floppies and the proprietary 100MB SuperDisks).
Gotcha. This applied for all the PB G3s -- Wallstreet, Pismo, Kanga, ...?
Well, I'm not sure if the Apple floppy shipped as standard or as an option with the Pismo, but it was definitely available. Did the Kanga even have a removable drivebay? Wallstreet and Lombard - definitely.
Yep, the Kanga was basically a 3400c/G3.
IIRC I was running OS 10.2 on my wallstreet when I made disk images of all my old floppies... Definitely had 800k disks in the bunch... But I can't be 100% certan I know 9.2.1 was also installed on it, and that was a good 8+ years ago.
As for apple talk, OS 10.5 does a crap job with AppleTalk for printing, my pb180 can see the printers but it can't seem to print to them (using 10.5 server's print server). Been using FTP to transfer files... Eventually I may try 7.6.1, have CD, just have to work out how to get that installed with out having a CD-ROM drive that'll connect to the PowerBook.
As for apple talk, OS 10.5 does a crap job with AppleTalk for printing, my pb180 can see the printers but it can't seem to print to them (using 10.5 server's print server). Been using FTP to transfer files... Eventually I may try 7.6.1, have CD, just have to work out how to get that installed with out having a CD-ROM drive that'll connect to the PowerBook.
^ You're using a SCSI to Ethernet adapter?
For installing 7.6, you can share the CD out from 10.5 and access it through FTP. Better is to get ahold of something like this which is about 10 years old -- and binhex the installer files, then push them out via ftp.
Netatalk -- anybody would like to figure it out? In the upcoming version 3, I've removed the instructions for setting up netatalk under the Linux section for three reasons: 1) the linux version is already going out of date (11.10); 2) once the repositories get updated to netatalk 3.0, it'll be worthless as netatalk 3.0 doesn't have afp support; and 3) because of the highly dynamic nature of Linux, showing the instructions for one distro isn't exactly conclusive because the only way I got it to work was via installing from the repositories.
Installing from source will eventually be the only way forward. I tried looking for clues from the A2 crowd because there is support for net-booting a IIGS from netatalk with the A2BOOT flag.
For installing 7.6, you can share the CD out from 10.5 and access it through FTP. Better is to get ahold of something like this which is about 10 years old -- and binhex the installer files, then push them out via ftp.
Netatalk -- anybody would like to figure it out? In the upcoming version 3, I've removed the instructions for setting up netatalk under the Linux section for three reasons: 1) the linux version is already going out of date (11.10); 2) once the repositories get updated to netatalk 3.0, it'll be worthless as netatalk 3.0 doesn't have afp support; and 3) because of the highly dynamic nature of Linux, showing the instructions for one distro isn't exactly conclusive because the only way I got it to work was via installing from the repositories.
Installing from source will eventually be the only way forward. I tried looking for clues from the A2 crowd because there is support for net-booting a IIGS from netatalk with the A2BOOT flag.
Yup, I have the one Asante mini EN/SC. I'll try binhexing it...
other thing I'd love to have figured out, in classic networking is a MacIP router software that'll work on a moderish(OSX) mac. that way I could use the Appletalk to Ethernet box I've got to get the plus online too.
other thing I'd love to have figured out, in classic networking is a MacIP router software that'll work on a moderish(OSX) mac. that way I could use the Appletalk to Ethernet box I've got to get the plus online too.
I found Netatalk to be the best solution for AppleShare. I have 2.1.6 running in a Debian virtual machine and have connected to it with System 6 up to 10.8. I had problems connecting without TCP/IP with 2.2.1 so I've stuck with 2.1.6 ever since.
Using MacIP in the TCP/IP control panel is for LocalTalk only and will not work out to TCP/IP. Furthermore, an AFP bridge will only work with AFP over AppleTalk with LocalTalk to AFP over AppleTalk with Ethernet. Only exotic bridges like the Cayman Systems Gatorbox can do like what you're describing. They are also rare-ish and expensive.Yup, I have the one Asante mini EN/SC. I'll try binhexing it...
other thing I'd love to have figured out, in classic networking is a MacIP router software that'll work on a moderish(OSX) mac. that way I could use the Appletalk to Ethernet box I've got to get the plus online too.
Great. Have you tried 2.2.4? It's the last version of version 2, wasn't sure if it would work.
Would you be so kind as to detail the steps? This is what the rest of the internet provides: [&%√˙©ƒ@Ω£]. I can't make any sense of it, and neither do they detail how they compiled it from source. The last time I did it, the Netatalk library was installed in the wrong directory. The official man pages are rather broadly written, and there's probably a dozen gotchas relating to not using a certain flag or something.
I do have a laptop with 9.10 on it, runs "A bit sluggish", probably would run a bit better on 512MB RAM rather than 384 which is has now (XP SP3 runs perfectly fine). I would install Netatalk on it but because it's a pentaboot and reinstalling an OS would be a major irritation, I'll probably test the "Procedure" in a VM first. I'd like to have Netatalk on it because with the Ubuntu distro, there is $ dd, HFS read support and many other neat little things to help grease the wheels.
I haven't tried 2.2.4. I'm working on the if-it-ain't-broken principle. I'm not very linux literate either and had to google up every step of the way so I took notes as I went along. This guide was helpful, particularly with setting up avahi (which enables auto-discovery for OS X). It also details how to add shares etc.
Compiling netatalk (this is for 2.1.6 and debian)
Required dependencies: libavahi-client-dev libcups2-dev libdb-dev libssl-dev (install these first using apt-get or whatever package manager the distro uses)
Configure: ./configure --enable-debian --enable-zeroconf --enable-ddp --enable-cups --enable-ssl --sysconfdir=/etc --with-uams-path=/usr/lib/netatalk
Make it load on startup: update-rc.d netatalk defaults
Installing it in a VM is also handy because it also makes it portable. If you reinstall your system or want to install the server on another machine you just have to install the VM software and import your VM. I'm using VirtualBox here.
Since you say that it can be mounted in System 6, that means that your .conf files are at least somewhat correct. Would you be so kind as to upload all the contents (XXXXXXXX out any you'd consider "sensitive") of the afpd.conf, /etc/default/netatalk and /etc/netatalk/AppleVolumes.default files to pastebin?
That kremalicious thing was my source for doing it on the Guide, but that was from repository source, not compiling it manually. Any notes of yours you'd like to share?
EDIT: Did you also load the Berkeley DB libraries? If so, how?
That kremalicious thing was my source for doing it on the Guide, but that was from repository source, not compiling it manually. Any notes of yours you'd like to share?
EDIT: Did you also load the Berkeley DB libraries? If so, how?
Here's my conf files. On System 6 the shares were initially mounted read-only. When I updated the AppleShare Client to whatever version would run on System 6 (I can't remember now and those Macs are gone) I was able to write as well.
afpd.conf
AppleVolumes.default
The media/sf_ folders are folders on the host PC attached using VirtualBox's folder sharing. This is also why I redirected their database files to folders inside the VM. The Essentials share is a folder in the VM.
atalkd.conf
This was largely (completely?) system-generated. If eth0 is missing from the end of your file just add it and I think it will fill in the rest later.
As for compiling from source, after installing the required dependencies I just downloaded the 2.1.6 tarball, extracted it and ran the configure string in my previous post. Then probably followed up with "make install" (I haven't anything in my notes about this so I'm assuming it was standard operating procedure after configure).
I haven't got any mention of the Berkeley DB libraries in my notes. Are they needed?
afpd.conf
Code:
- -transall -uamlist uams_clrtxt.so,uams_dhx.so,uams_dhx2.so -nosavepassword
Code:
:DEFAULT: options:upriv,usedots
/media/sf_Macintosh "Macintosh Archive" dbpath:/home/mac/.dbfiles/macintosh options:ro
/media/sf_Shared "Shared Folder" dbpath:/home/mac/.dbfiles/shared
/software/Essentials "Essentials"atalkd.conf
Code:
eth0 -phase 2 -net 0-65534 -addr 65280.163As for compiling from source, after installing the required dependencies I just downloaded the 2.1.6 tarball, extracted it and ran the configure string in my previous post. Then probably followed up with "make install" (I haven't anything in my notes about this so I'm assuming it was standard operating procedure after configure).
I haven't got any mention of the Berkeley DB libraries in my notes. Are they needed?