Thread
Fanless LCIII/ LC475?
Does anyone know whether it is advisable to run an LCIII or an LC475 constantly (24/7), without a case fan?
The reason for the question is that I want to replace a Powerbook 520 that I presently run as an Appletalk router, using the old Apple Internet Router software. I use this to keep some old LaserWriters in service, as well as to bridge localtalk and ethertalk generally.
I find that the 520 is a bit unreliable for these purposes because of the state of the battery (after a power cut, it will not automatically restart, and this wreaks havoc with the home network). Having a PowerBook with a battery that old constantly plugged in is also a safety concern. So I am wanting to replace the 520 with something well able to do the simple business at hand, but that is energy efficient. An LC pizzabox looks like the solution, and I have suitable machines in my collection.
The machine chosen would be otherwise stock, running from a RAM disk with the HD spun down via Sleeper, and with a pds ethernet card installed. It would be located in a basement room where the temperature tends to a constant 18-22ºC, depending on the season.
Silence is the goal, along with an absolute minimum of moving parts — old scsi drives in particular do not like to run 24/7. I could cope with the noise from the case fan, but I would prefer to avoid it too if possible.
Has anyone run one of these machines long-term without a fan?
The reason for the question is that I want to replace a Powerbook 520 that I presently run as an Appletalk router, using the old Apple Internet Router software. I use this to keep some old LaserWriters in service, as well as to bridge localtalk and ethertalk generally.
I find that the 520 is a bit unreliable for these purposes because of the state of the battery (after a power cut, it will not automatically restart, and this wreaks havoc with the home network). Having a PowerBook with a battery that old constantly plugged in is also a safety concern. So I am wanting to replace the 520 with something well able to do the simple business at hand, but that is energy efficient. An LC pizzabox looks like the solution, and I have suitable machines in my collection.
The machine chosen would be otherwise stock, running from a RAM disk with the HD spun down via Sleeper, and with a pds ethernet card installed. It would be located in a basement room where the temperature tends to a constant 18-22ºC, depending on the season.
Silence is the goal, along with an absolute minimum of moving parts — old scsi drives in particular do not like to run 24/7. I could cope with the noise from the case fan, but I would prefer to avoid it too if possible.
Has anyone run one of these machines long-term without a fan?
I'd keep it going, as the fan it actually very quiet in the pizza box style cases - even more if you re-oil and clear out all the dust from the unit. The '040 can get fairly warm, along with the HD without some sort of basic cooling.
Do tell more. All I could find about Apple Internet Router 3 was almost zero. Do you need a 300 page manual to set it up? It strikes me as rather unfriendly to configure.
On topic, I found that the 68030s are actually rather cool, unless you really push them. A simple thermal pad and aluminum heatsink should be a solid solution. Take for instance, the Duo 2300c -- no fan, can run fairly hot, but is generally OK. A 68030 is capable enough in this situation to handle the tasks you describe.
Not difficult at all, really. There is a text-only manual available from Apple's archives. As it dates from the era of the 68030, it doesn't need much horsepower to run, and it is very stable.
The "Internet" part refers to something other than our internet, of course. The idea seems to have been to bridge more than one AppleTalk network, and hence it was an internet router.
The "Internet" part refers to something other than our internet, of course. The idea seems to have been to bridge more than one AppleTalk network, and hence it was an internet router.
i would say yes as long as the top case lid is off.
Link? I couldn't find anything via Google.
http://www.wedophones.com/Manuals/AppleComputer/Apple%20Internet%20Router.pdf
Include "localtalk" in the search and you get past the current associations of "internet" and "router".
Include "localtalk" in the search and you get past the current associations of "internet" and "router".
Great. I'll review it and probably throw it up on the Guide. Doubt I'll play with it though...I found that it requires 7.0/7.1 >only< and will ruin a 7.5+ (I first had a go at it with 7.5.3) install.
/thread hijack
/thread hijack
Weird, that product didn't even come with MacIP routing capabilities. If the machine in question is just routing Appletalk, you could switch to a dedicated Localtalk-to-Ethernet bridge. No fan and uses less power/space. If you need multiple Appletalk zones for some reason or MacIP capabilities for the Localtalk side, only the high end routers like the Fastpath and Gatorbox provide them.
With the lid on, I don't think you'd want to have the fan not running at all. You may be fine to put a resistor in series with the fan to slow it down a bit, reducing the noise but still keeping a bit of air moving. Otherwise leave the lid off and it'll be fine with no fan.
I have two router boxes, neither of which is nearly as robust as Apple Internet Router. My Asante box, e.g., needs restarted regularly, whereas AIN is rock-solid. The setup needs to be reliable or I have unhappy family syndrome.
I just need a rock solid machine to run it on, just as quietly as it runs from the RAM disk on the 520.
Mind you, I suppose I could just fix the 520's battery....
I just need a rock solid machine to run it on, just as quietly as it runs from the RAM disk on the 520.
Mind you, I suppose I could just fix the 520's battery....
you could … or you could just, buy a battery back up APC from walmart for 28.88 just keep your 520 plugged into that.
That would probably run your 520 for 30 to 45 min from battery.
That would probably run your 520 for 30 to 45 min from battery.
After 7 years the Big 12v AGM batteries went bad in our APC 1000xl (runs the servers/router/cable modulator|de-modulator), I realized it was nice enough to let me change the battery hot 
I wouldn't recomend it long-term. I disconnected the fan once or twice while listening to bad-cap screech from the loud-speaker. During those five minutes, I managed to burn my fingers on the CPU.
But when I used to run the Mac from a RAM disk I had a bit of fun once or twice by disconnecting the fan for short periods of time. It was rather weird using a completely silent computer.
But when I used to run the Mac from a RAM disk I had a bit of fun once or twice by disconnecting the fan for short periods of time. It was rather weird using a completely silent computer.
Has anyone tried fitting a heatsink (maybe an old 486 one) to the CPU to see if that makes any difference?
The way I see it, the problem here is airflow. If the iMac can manage it through convection alone I'm sure it can be done on a pizzabox Mac. I think a few strategically placed vents, and an adequate heatsink for the processor, should do the trick.
The way I see it, the problem here is airflow. If the iMac can manage it through convection alone I'm sure it can be done on a pizzabox Mac. I think a few strategically placed vents, and an adequate heatsink for the processor, should do the trick.
Flies in that ointment: the iMac almost posseses enough vertical space to produce an adequate chimney effect for convection cooling, much like the 128k. Neither was adequate for long term serviceability from what I've seen. In the LC/605 'zaBox form factors, vertical dimension for convection cooling is conspicuously absent on the one hand and on the other, the horizontal offsets of entry/exit and CPU pose what I'd consider insurmountable obstacles to proper cooling via convection.
Hacking a proper MacChimney or turning the case on end for a blade config might change that, however. }
Hacking a proper MacChimney or turning the case on end for a blade config might change that, however. }
yeah , interesting jt, that is a good idea make a chimney and attach it to the vents in the middle of the case. then you would get chimney effect cooling.
or make a new case out of wood that stands vertical, that also has a nice chimney They did it pretty nicely with the G4 cube. jt. do you have a G4 Cube?
or make a new case out of wood that stands vertical, that also has a nice chimney
They did it pretty nicely with the G4 cube. jt. do you have a G4 Cube?No slots = no gots }
G4 cube with SSD would be silent and fanless.
. . . but still slotless. 
G4 Cube has one slot.
That is like saying "but" I'm a **religion goes here**, --That is why I will not come to your christmas party.
-- even though it looks super awesome, and I'm sure I would enjoy my self if I went
-- even though it looks super awesome, and I'm sure I would enjoy my self if I went
Heh, not even close! :lol: The Cube's Video Subsystem interface can hardly be considered an expansion slot unless you count runin' the sucker headless with a useful card in there!
Can you run a Dual Head VidCard in the Cube? }
Can you run a Dual Head VidCard in the Cube? }
You can run two monitors yes, with the card from a G4 I put in mine I can run ADC an a VGA. I've seen serial ports put in place of the modem. Not sure what expansion he needs. I was just saying it would be fanless and quiet. I have an airport card in mine also and a newer combo drive out of a dead G5 in mine. Someday I hope to get an upgrade G4 processor but I'm not holding my breath.
I wonder if the Airport is a real PCMCIA slot. If so you could omit the WIFI and install some PC-Card
PCMCIA-based, yes… but it's been modified so PCMCIA cards don't work.
I think it was just a case of one or two pins being rearranged, so a simple pin-pin adapter might work. Some PCMCIA cards have been shown to work without modifications, IIRC: namely Lucent Orinoco Wifi cards. Good luck getting anything else recognised in there.
The original AirPort cards were Lucent WaveLAN cards with the internal antenna hacked off and Apple's firmware flashed on in such a way that it's pretty impossible to flash it back unlike other rebranded WaveLAN cards with OEM branding. This is why Apple's own AirPort driver supported the WaveLAN cards.
You know how you get your fanless LC475? WATERCOOLING! :rambo:
You just have to use a decent size radiator positioned in a reasonable space if you want to run it passive. Though you will of course need a pump; there are many available.
The tricky thing is the waterblocks. You would have to use an adhesive to attach them to the CPU and any other chip and that brings up the issue of reversal in the future. Though you could probably just run it with a disconnected waterblock and not have any issues since these CPUs were fine with no heatsinks and only the case airflow.
An advantage is that the waterblock can be any cheap old outdated one at a good used price!
Optionally you could build a new case with mounts for a couple 120mm or larger fans. They can be incredibly quiet but still move decent air. Extra points for tossing in a fan controller to crank them up during high load.
You just have to use a decent size radiator positioned in a reasonable space if you want to run it passive. Though you will of course need a pump; there are many available.
The tricky thing is the waterblocks. You would have to use an adhesive to attach them to the CPU and any other chip and that brings up the issue of reversal in the future. Though you could probably just run it with a disconnected waterblock and not have any issues since these CPUs were fine with no heatsinks and only the case airflow.
An advantage is that the waterblock can be any cheap old outdated one at a good used price!
Optionally you could build a new case with mounts for a couple 120mm or larger fans. They can be incredibly quiet but still move decent air. Extra points for tossing in a fan controller to crank them up during high load.
The LCIII's 68030 @ 25mhz would surely not need to be cooled. Even at 33mhz the 68030 in an LCIII+ ought to be good. The 68030 runs cool.
An LC475 that has no FPU and that hasn't been overclocked should also be reasonably cool (witness the 040 PowerBooks), but I'd be less confident about using it than the LCIII. An 040 runs hotter than an 030 and consumes a good deal more power (e.g., there is a big difference between the runtime of the same Duo battery in a Duo 270c and a 280c).
What I am most concerned about, frankly, is the power supply. Mind you, there again, I suppose that a PowerBook power supply needs no fan, and it is essentially the same animal as the one in an LCIII/475, is it not?
I'll give it a try soon, once I get a spare couple of hours.
An LC475 that has no FPU and that hasn't been overclocked should also be reasonably cool (witness the 040 PowerBooks), but I'd be less confident about using it than the LCIII. An 040 runs hotter than an 030 and consumes a good deal more power (e.g., there is a big difference between the runtime of the same Duo battery in a Duo 270c and a 280c).
What I am most concerned about, frankly, is the power supply. Mind you, there again, I suppose that a PowerBook power supply needs no fan, and it is essentially the same animal as the one in an LCIII/475, is it not?
I'll give it a try soon, once I get a spare couple of hours.
Having tested it pretty thoroughly last night and today, I can report that my fanless scheme won't work as planned for either model.
Without a fan, and even with the top removed, the 33mhz LCIII+ gets very hot in a couple of spots, especially on the 68030; the slower 25mhz LCIII is a bit better, but still too hot for me to be comfortable running it fanless. The heat from the 68030 especially surprised me, as I thought that all 68030s ran cool.
The LC475's 68LC040 gets pretty hot as well, of course. I went to the lengths of spinning down the hard drive via Sleeper, installing a 33mhz 68LC040 from an LC630 board (with the thought that running it at 25mhz would keep it cool), and popping a large heatsink on the processor. I then put on the lid and went away for an hour. After an hour, the whole centre of the logic board was warm, the heatsink was distinctly hot, the PS was getting too warm -- and I figured that this was just not a good idea.
Now, were I do run the LC475 without the top on, and arrange matters so that it got convection ventilation, I suspect that all would be fine. Will ponder that as an alternative possibility. I have been wondering about trying to make myself a sort of 68040-based Cube, so maybe now is the time.
Without a fan, and even with the top removed, the 33mhz LCIII+ gets very hot in a couple of spots, especially on the 68030; the slower 25mhz LCIII is a bit better, but still too hot for me to be comfortable running it fanless. The heat from the 68030 especially surprised me, as I thought that all 68030s ran cool.
The LC475's 68LC040 gets pretty hot as well, of course. I went to the lengths of spinning down the hard drive via Sleeper, installing a 33mhz 68LC040 from an LC630 board (with the thought that running it at 25mhz would keep it cool), and popping a large heatsink on the processor. I then put on the lid and went away for an hour. After an hour, the whole centre of the logic board was warm, the heatsink was distinctly hot, the PS was getting too warm -- and I figured that this was just not a good idea.
Now, were I do run the LC475 without the top on, and arrange matters so that it got convection ventilation, I suspect that all would be fine. Will ponder that as an alternative possibility. I have been wondering about trying to make myself a sort of 68040-based Cube, so maybe now is the time.
I think you need to get some temperature readings.
maybe use a IR thermometer?
You can sit around 130 degrees F and be just fine.
Touching 130 degrees is going to hurt like hell.. but is perfectly safe for your computer, well most of it. That is a little much for the hard drive in my opinion.
but only way to know is to leave it on after an hour and get some readings.
maybe use a IR thermometer?
You can sit around 130 degrees F and be just fine.
Touching 130 degrees is going to hurt like hell.. but is perfectly safe for your computer, well most of it. That is a little much for the hard drive in my opinion.
but only way to know is to leave it on after an hour and get some readings.
You know what is better than fanless? A fan controller! 
Thanks for the info/ ideas.
I haven't exactly been working steadily on this, so I haven't yet sourced a thermometer to check, but on further research, 130ºF seems to be well within the maximum telerances for the 68040, which according to the Motorola datasheet is a whopping 110ºC, which is enough to burn. So fanless should still be possible.
To make things as "cool" as can be, though, I am toying now with the idea of popping the 475 logic board in the "display" of a Classic front bezel I have lying around, so making it into something computerartsy. The board would be mounted about 1.75" behind the bezel to allow for good airflow, but, you know what? In my mock-ups, it actually looks pretty darned cool. Air circulation would then deal with the heat dissipation.
I don't need the bezel and I don't need a monitor for the AppleTalk router in question — so it might just work. Drive and ps would be relocated to the rear. Doesn't even need a floppy. And no machines will be killed for the hack: I have the spare parts.
I haven't exactly been working steadily on this, so I haven't yet sourced a thermometer to check, but on further research, 130ºF seems to be well within the maximum telerances for the 68040, which according to the Motorola datasheet is a whopping 110ºC, which is enough to burn. So fanless should still be possible.
To make things as "cool" as can be, though, I am toying now with the idea of popping the 475 logic board in the "display" of a Classic front bezel I have lying around, so making it into something computerartsy. The board would be mounted about 1.75" behind the bezel to allow for good airflow, but, you know what? In my mock-ups, it actually looks pretty darned cool. Air circulation would then deal with the heat dissipation.
I don't need the bezel and I don't need a monitor for the AppleTalk router in question — so it might just work. Drive and ps would be relocated to the rear. Doesn't even need a floppy. And no machines will be killed for the hack: I have the spare parts.
Something I've discovered during the process of uprading my '475 is that the simple trick of turning the fan upside down has the effect of dramatically improving cooling (this way it sucks air upwards into the case and blows it out through the case slots and floppy drive).