Hidden menu bar

Huh, if a part of the image on the screen is missing, I'm inclined to think that a certain section of the RAM where that part of the video data is stored is damaged or the trace to it has been destroyed and thus it is not being rendered on-screen. You'll notice that part of the image seems to be completely missing from the screen, not just the menu bar, because the corners are square. On a properly rendered mac screen/desktop, the corners are always round, like the bottom of your screen/desktop.

Exactly, it is clearly appreciated by the detail of the full right angles to the corners.
 
So is it possible that the problem is because some SIMM memory module is defective?

If you look carefully, you can see the burn in where the menu bar usually is, so maybe the display *is* being rendered correctly, and it's simply a function of a corrupted System file or something?

Maybe??

Try reinstalling your System Software. That might help?

c

I also had in mind the possibility.
 
I even booted from a floppy disk installation and is still not visible this portion of the screen
 
I just install another set of SIMM modules and the problem persists

I recorded a video with very high brightness of the screen so that this horizontal scan lines are visible.
 
Please tell me if what you see is normal.
Here the video:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B75qCt15gEmOWmxfd2RmdGRGM1E/view?usp=sharing

Thank you.

The burn-in could easily be from before damage to the logic board occurred due to leaking caps, etc...

From that video, its clear its not even rendering the area for the menu bar, its stopping right at the sharp corners.

Maybe you do not appreciate too well in the video, but  the upper horizontal scan lines are more abundant.
 
Is this normal in a " healthy" screen?
 
See if someone can test with your mac increasing the brightness screen .
 
Thank you.

There's two adjusters for screen brightness most compacts. (except the Classic line of Compacts where they no longer sport the front brightness knob). The external one you can interact with and one on the analog board that you have to take the back cover off to reach.

If you set it too high the scanlines become visible. Even a healthy system would do this and it's a general habit of all CRTs if you adjust brightness too high. Most newer CRTs don't let you set brightness high enough for scanlines to appear. But the older ones like the compact macs can if you adjust the internal brightness meter too high which then allows the front brightness knob to send brightness to high causing the scanlines to appear.

The worst you'll get from running a mac like this is shorter run time for the phosphers of the CRT and the chance of burn in occurring at a quicker rate. I would say you should avoid that.

I adjusted mine so it gets the highest brightness without the scanlines appearing.

Though I don't usually have it that high on the front brightness knob. I just tightened it up a bit so I have the option of going max brightness.

As for the screen. You should take video of it rebooting. Are the screen corners rounded during boot but once Finder comes up, they vanish or are they present even during the happy mac boot screen?

If the corners are cut off even at bootscreen, a hardware fault like bad VRAM or trace to VRAM will cause that.

If it's a vram/trace issue, the menu bar should still be present. Did you try and move the mouse beyond the area being drawn on top? It should be easy to tell if the menu bar is actually gone or if it's a video problem. Move the cursor to where you think the Apple Menu will be. (assume the menu bar is above the visible screen area in this instance)

If the mouse actually stops at the edge of the visible screen perhaps it is a software issue. But since you haven't shown it rebooting, we can't rule out hardware fault.

The problem is not the scan lines, I force them to come out deliberately by itself gives a clue of the real problem.
 
The real problem is the lack of the upper portion of the screen image.
 
As I said this always happens, even booting an OS installation disc.

If I move the mouse up to the top, this is partially hidden but I can deploy menu options.

I will bet that your problem is related with the Analog board.

We think the same. But also could be a problem of the CRT, isn't it?

nope. not CRT. 

I dont think its the analog board either. Because if it was a vertical issue, you would see the menu bar and mouse pointer in the "foldover" section, appearing as a brighter line. 

But because you dont have that, tells me the logic board is the ACTUAL fault here.... probably related to one of the PAL/GALs. 

The only ever chance it could be the analog board, is if the back porch pulse is too wide and driving the CRT into cut-off for too long, thats generated by the flyback and feeds the vertical stage in a feedback format. 

But, since the scan drive is generated by the logic board, that sorta rules that out... Goes right back to the logic board... If you noticed in your video, the vertical raster period isnt on long enough. Back to the logic board!

A PAL/GAL of the logic board, pufff

How can we verify it?
And if possible can, find the faulty component. Any software testing perhaps?

You verify it by swapping logic boards.

It is not possible, Only have this

Any testing program?

Nope, its an abstract hardware fault. Software wouldn't be able to detect it.

So the layout of scanlines is normal, they are not too concentrated in the upper parts?

Could be, but again.. it goes back to my previous post. 

techknight said:

Could be, but again.. it goes back to my previous post. 

Click to expand...

ok, but you say too :

The only ever chance it could be the analog board, is if the back porch pulse is too wide and driving the CRT into cut-off for too long, thats generated by the flyback and feeds the vertical stage in a feedback format. 

TDA-1170N?

but the likelyhood of that is fairly small. Still possible, yes... but small... the circuitry is way too simple. Now if this were a color monitor, all bets are off... 

You need to try and find another logic board, even if its a regular SE. This will help point yourself in the right direction, otherwise I see you chasing your tail in circles all day long. 

Without that, the only other option is using a scope and watching the signals coming from the logic board, but then you need a known good board to compare the waveforms to. 

Thank you, but it isn't so easy for my find of another logic board for testing...

I think my only option is to find the solution without hurry and continue listening to expert opinion.

Techknight is about as expert as it gets.

Of course, I do not put it in doubt.
 
It's just that I'd like to know more opinions

You could try sending it to Uniserver. He's up there with techknight in the expert department, and he does really great work recapping everybody's boards (power supplies, logic boards, analog boards... he does it all!), and he may be able to help you out with your current problem as well.

maccaps.com is his web site, where he has more detailed information, plus lots of other helpful materials that may be of some benefit (including a PDF of the Dead Mac Scrolls, which is an invaluable book to have around for troubleshooting purposes).

c

Nice to know it!
 
Currently I have recapped both boards, not the power supply but I think don't there go the shots
 
Thank you.

My logic board recapped:







That these images serve also if you see something strange.

I have done all I can. Good luck!

Thank you.

So it was how it came to me.

Wow! That's probably the dirtiest SE/30 board I've ever seen!

Anyway, Uniserver does more than just recaps, so just ask, and I'm sure he can work something out with you.

Good luck!

c

I'm all ears!!
 
Send my boards to thousands of miles I think that it is not viable.
 
Thank you.

Interesting to see the cap goo bleed through the dust.

Whoa. Where were they keeping that thing, inside a vacuum cleaner?

Good luck!

It was inside the case The accumulation of dirt come it by the fan with the years simply through use. Even so functions as the first day.

Hi my friends.
 
I replaced TDA1170 from the analogic board and the problem persists.
 
Also I made a screenshot and I have extracted the picture from the machine to view that really should be displayed:

 

 
 

I would like to locate an a solution without having to change the logic board, as this is unattainable for me.
 
New ideas are welcome.
 
Thank you.

It's a long shot, but try changing the order of the SIMMs. Those are the long thin cards that rise up from the logic board, and there should be some kind of clips holding them in place. Release the clips and slide the card out. Take them all out and put them back in a different order. That will tell us if it is a faulty SIMM.

Thank you but but this long shot possibility was ruled out long time.

Your only solution is to either go trace-by-trace looking for the break, or replace it piece-by-piece until you find the piece that is broken.

OK. The first thing is to know where to start.
First I think that it should checking the VRAM and its route until the video signal generated which goes to the analog Board.
For this it is essential the schematic.
These are public domain?

Nope, no mac schematics are public domain. However, you may still be able to find them online. The guy that used to make them de novo has since retired, so that route is closed.

Wow, you say words that my translator is not able to interpret
 
You say that exist schematics for the network and there is nothing domain public, then I understand that for consult these schematics is necessary to pay.
 
It is possible that my difficulty in interpreting certain colloquial phrases in English are fact that misunderstood the meaning of them. Please tell me if.

Well, your translator was close. You may be able to find them online, though they would obviously be illegal copies. The guy who made new schematics for macs retired (is no longer working). Hopefully your translator will get my new phrasing.

I would imagine it choked on de novo, that's because its not English, its Latin (the dead language). It means from scratch, or starting new.

If I'd known you were using a translator, I would have used easier to translate wording.

Thank you. You're very kind, but still its second sentence is incomprehensible. Words like "Novo" are not recognized in your language or in mine, both languages, by the way, daughters of Latin.
 
The schematics which you mean should be these: http://www.maccaps.com/MacCaps/Schematics.html

Yep, the only difference, if I'm not mistaken, is that your version is 220v, not 120v. There tend to be a few differences on the analog board between 220v and 120 volt versions, but the logic board should be the same.

Where are you based ? from what i can see in the pictures above probably from a country speaking Spanish.

Your best try will be to find someone around having a working unit to compare with.

I have got dome schematics i can send to you if required, send me PM with a valid email.

Thank you.

I'm spanish and these Macintosh here are scarce, therefore making it very difficult to access another logic board to compare.

I'll has send a PM.

hi Sinclair - im in Ireland and if you post over the board id be glad to test it out for you. I have many macs and a few spares - don't want any money for it - gladly do it for free - you just cover postage over and back of just the logic board - Something you can test yourself is the continuity test on UE8 from each pin to the first via's you find. Do the same for UC8,UD8,UE8,UF8

-

ive seen many boards, allot of dust.......but WOW.....that was the most dust covered board ive ever seen -

cheers

Thank you falen5. 

I'll take your word for it!

I doubt the issue is related to UE8 in this situation, I never even thought to click on this thread due to title, op pm'ed me wanting to buy a ls166, I mean no problem I have a roll of hc166's . But I think mike is right on the money with a screwed up pal. Too bad on this darn revision they are soldered down, other revisions has them all in sockets .

I find the more dusty the less eaten by leaky cap goo, dust acts like a wick. That darn se30 has seen some hours. I would say that one probably paid for it's self for sure.

uniserver said:

...a screwed up pal. Too bad on this darn revision they are soldered down, other revisions has them all in sockets .

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.
 

Desoldering is no problem for me.
Tell me  please only the component(s) that you suspect and I can move forward.

https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/22545-macintosh-se30-killed-by-a-mouse/page-2

similar issue on this thread.

falen5
is fairly near you there in ireland.  maybe you can message him and buy a parts board off em or something?

I have seen pals go bad a few times…   but its not super common, i would say its more common for UE8 issues or VRAM issues… And i don't think you have issues with either of those, concerning your current issue. maybe the parts board you can get has good pals?

Thanks for the information.
 
Although there are parts of your response that I am not able to translate.
 
When you say "pal" would you tell PAL (part)?
The translator tells me that this word means 'friend'
 
I do not understand what I want to ask this:
 

uniserver said:

falen5

maybe the parts board you can get has good pals?

Click to expand...

Sorry for the inconvenience.

the only way to obtain some would be from a parts board,  and they are the I/C's marked by arrows in the image i posted.

OK. I understand.
 
I guess that these PAL are not known their equations and it is impossible to replace them in another way.

correct they are special chips, that are proprietary to apple. 

Ok.

I have tried to change the title of this thread because it isn't very descriptive but it is not possible.
 
Well, I am ruling out possibilities.
 
I have extracted the VIDEO ROM chip and tried to read its contents set up my programmer to read a 27c64/2764 but the programmer has not recognized the chip. However if I configure it as 2732/27c32 if I read it but the information does not seem complete.
Is this normal?
 
If not so, would, I tell someone where to get content of this ROM to burn it on another chip and follow with the tests?
 
The VIDEO ROM numbers are 341-0650-A
 
Thank you

Miguel,

you can find the content here:

http://www.synack.net/~bbraun/roms/

Good luck.

Thank you.

Finally got to read the ROM as W27c256.
 
I Wrote a new EEPROM with the content of the chip and the linked file above and the problem persists, the ROM working fine.

the ROM isnt the issue, it never was... 

Was only for discat things and because I was bored ;D

One more question:

This issue is compatible with VRAM?

Yep

Paralel said:

Yep

Click to expand...

okey!

I would like to confirm this before I have to unsolder the VRAM chips and having to buy new ones.
 
It seems that there is a software of diagnosis called "MacTest is / 30 '' (http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Companies/Apple/Documentation/Apple%20Technical%20Information%20Library/a2til197.txt) that it can help diagnose this problem.
 
The question now is where I can get this disk image.
 
Thank you.

Miguel,

I think the software you are looking for is for the Apple TechStep tool... was supplied to Apple technicians, but is a rare beast today:

Thanx Luis

Is rare found it but I'm sure that anybody has preserved.

Other diagnóstic tool is wellcome.

Some are availlable around, including among the folks here at 68Kmla, but is quite expensive if you can find one.

Also, is working with cartridge type "ROM Packs" and you should have the one suitable for your computer.

You will find information here:

http://www.forcedperfect.net/hardware/other/techstep/

Never seen one for real by the way.

With the disk image that indicated above would suffice.

This work has served to rule out a failure of VRAM:





I guess the next step is to replace the video muxes F253, .. or am I losing my time and money?  

PALs PALs PALs.... 

I guess this context was lost in translation somewhere? 

In fact. As I told the translator translates, "FRIENDs, FRIENDs, FRIENDs"
 
If I'm not mistaken there are at least 5 custom chips ...
Would you be so kind as to be a little more specific?

P.A.L. = Programmable Array Logic. Your translater shouldn't have any trouble with this!

c

Hahaha, of course, my translator and I know the meaning. I was just kidding
 
Thank you anyway.

Of course. We're all friends here! :lol:

By the way: I meant translator. Not translater.

c

after all its not like TK knows what he is takin bout or nothin  haha

I do not understand his slang phrase, but I guess the meaning.
Translators still have their limitations.
 
I Only try to exhaust all possibilities before having to pull my PCB because I can't no replace some components that are impossible to get.
 
This to You seem to have it easy and should also be the solution for you. 
On the other hand I should clinging to any possibility. 
Not know if you understand this.
 
So the next thing I will do is replace the video muxes and we will see what happens. The hope is the only thing to be not missed.

ok, sounds like your enjoying your self.  Personally if i know the piston is shot in my engine, but i start by changing the transmission … well hey all in good fun.!

I don't know if my car is wrong the engine or transmission, no one tells me anything clear, only receive invitations to carry the car to the workshop. But if I ask for parts to the "mechanics" say that they do not have, this is curious...
 
Of course I enjoy all this,  Do not you just that?
 
I think that it is not so crazy to think that failure can be the video muxes. But if I am wrong I invite to someone do a reasoning about this.
 
Enjoy it!!

The reason for this is most people who would fix it would scrounge up the pieces if needed to do the repair, but they're not going to go scrounging up pieces just to sell them to someone, that's way too much work for what the part alone would be worth, not to mention that the part in question may not be the cause, so they can go further if necessary to get the right solution. If you're willing to pay a rather perverse price for a piece that may or may not fix your problem, I'm sure you can find someone that can scrounge one up for you, but you would have to be willing to accept all the risk of installing the part and accepting that the part itself may not be the solution to your problem.

Thank you Parallel, but should look more at the productive part of this issue, not to disqualify and be more constructive.
 
I'm not begging for parts, I only say that I am surprised that there are people that says know the root of the problem and offering me a freePCB repair service and then tell that they can not provide me the parts needed to replace them myself. This is at least suspicious. I Do not say this for uniniserver, of course.
 
Be construtive, please.

yeah like fallen… i am sure he would send you the PALS?  

sounds to me like you are enjoying your self… as i said…  you can de-solder and re-solder every chip on there… it doesn't matter… but if you want to fix it..

then you will need to change out those PAL's … or there is a dead trace to one of them!!  that could be too i think.  but by all means … have fun.

that is what its all about…  I like your pictures.

ill send you pal's… but heck… i was thinking the other guy would be cheaper shipping to ya…  i can pull some and get you a price for shipping to spain...

Thanks unisever, that is, yes.

ok, i didn't know that was the problem…  ill get em on the way .  pm your address...

all packed up and ready to go.

You want to sent me a piece of PCB also bare?
I did not expect less from you. You are very kind.

huh?

1. i said i would send you the pal's

2. you didn't want the whole parts pcb

3. so i cut out that part for you including the IC/s Sockets, and that section of pcb so you could even trace lines.

4. i packed it up weighed it … and go you a price of 16 bucks to ship to you.

5. you wanted a picture.. so i took picture.

6. now you are sending me messages saying something about my foot in my mouth,and you are insinuating that i am sending you a bare pcb?

Ugh geez.. ok buddy.. hey have a nice one. 

I love your sense of humor.
 
I continued on my thread trying to repair my PCB.

ok well its 6:36 am i have been working all night shoot that 16 over so i can ship your package out .   i am leaving here and heading to the post office… then i gotta get home and get a couple hours of sleep before i start my other job.

Well. we return to the issue.
 
The question raised was whether the Video muxes (F253D) can be the cause of the image appears a little cut by top.
 
Are the responses are valuable only if they are reasoned.
 
Thank you.

Well, you want to try the muxes, knock yourself out, no one here is going to say no.

Without the board in hand I cant give you any advice on which part to replace, or to be specific on what. 

The problem here is, the board needs to be "TROUBLESHOT" Meaning, you need to know and understand electronics to really fix the issue without becoming the next "parts swapper" 

So in other words the board needs to have some troubleshooting done to it with appropriate equipment to figure out exactly which part is bad. So unless you are familiar with electronics repair, and know how to troubleshoot, you are going to chase your tail for days. 

So either replace every part on that board and hope it works, or send it to someone who knows how to fix electronics. 

nuff said. 

pals on the way!  hope they do the business for you!

Yesterday I unsolder and swap all the F253D IC's :







The issue no was been solved

uniserver said:

pals on the way!  hope they do the business for you!

Click to expand...

Thanks to you my friend!!
 
I am convinced that comes on the way the solution this issue.