Thread
Need help - Mac 512Ke floppy drive
Hello all... After 28 years, I managed to get my original Mac 512Ke back from a friend (who kep it in my home country after I moved).
For a quick laugh, see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWd_HQbeeoE&feature=youtu.be
Two problems!
1) Anyhow, the problem I had after shooting this video was that first the External floppy drive started making a strange sound... constantly. I can insert a disk no problem, but it doesn't seem like it is reading it or anything. I opened it up and the sound seems to be coming from a black part with the word OMRON like the one in the bottom right in this picture:
https://wiki.68kmla.org/File:Floppy1.jpg. The sound is like a mechanical grind of sorts. I have to use a paperclip to eject.
2) 2 minutes later, the INTERNAL floppy does a strange sound as well. Now the issue with the internal is that it feels strange mechanically... when I insert a disk it doesn't feel like it is mechanically engaging correctly. It feels a little 'loose' in there. The mac doesn't react to disc insertion in any way, and I have to user a peperclip to eject. I dont think lubrication is the issue here. Can't boot anymore!
What are the odds! But oh well, 28 years is a long time. Aside from the Disk drive issues, everything else operated normally.
Any ideas what these drive issues are about? I'm wanting to get the internal one fixed with higher priority, because I dont think I can boot from the external floppy drive (if I recall correctly).
Thanks for any help!
For a quick laugh, see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWd_HQbeeoE&feature=youtu.be
Two problems!
1) Anyhow, the problem I had after shooting this video was that first the External floppy drive started making a strange sound... constantly. I can insert a disk no problem, but it doesn't seem like it is reading it or anything. I opened it up and the sound seems to be coming from a black part with the word OMRON like the one in the bottom right in this picture:
https://wiki.68kmla.org/File:Floppy1.jpg. The sound is like a mechanical grind of sorts. I have to use a paperclip to eject.
2) 2 minutes later, the INTERNAL floppy does a strange sound as well. Now the issue with the internal is that it feels strange mechanically... when I insert a disk it doesn't feel like it is mechanically engaging correctly. It feels a little 'loose' in there. The mac doesn't react to disc insertion in any way, and I have to user a peperclip to eject. I dont think lubrication is the issue here. Can't boot anymore!
What are the odds! But oh well, 28 years is a long time. Aside from the Disk drive issues, everything else operated normally.
Any ideas what these drive issues are about? I'm wanting to get the internal one fixed with higher priority, because I dont think I can boot from the external floppy drive (if I recall correctly).
Thanks for any help!
These drives gum up with age, making it harder to eject. Then what happens is it literally destroys the gears in the eject motor, causing it to lock up or spin forever.
These days, running unserviced floppy drives is a dangerous endevour. if you dont do maintenance to the drive, you can literally kill it for life! you will likely need replacement eject motors now. Which you might as well find new drives.
These days, running unserviced floppy drives is a dangerous endevour. if you dont do maintenance to the drive, you can literally kill it for life! you will likely need replacement eject motors now. Which you might as well find new drives.
Thanks techknight. Im not sure the problem here has anything to do with ejection...? I can't even get the disks to read, and one of the drives makes an odd grinding sound. the other makes no sound. Thanks.
Get the drive lubed and check for broken/bent/damaged parts.
Here is a simple guide to start with. Use a small artist paintbrush to remove the dust bunnies you may find.
https://wiki.68kmla.org/Floppy_Drive_Lubrication
Here is a simple guide to start with. Use a small artist paintbrush to remove the dust bunnies you may find.
https://wiki.68kmla.org/Floppy_Drive_Lubrication
I got a long torx screwdriver on eBay to open her up. Assuming I stay WELL AWAY from the CRT/Flyback, it looks like removing the internal drive is achievable without discharging the CRT. Risks aside, is this correct?
Risk is minimal if you stay away from the CRT HV Cable. Remove the floppy cable first and then you can shimmy logic board off the rails and unclip the board from the analog board connector. Its a tight squeeze, but doable. Then the Logic board falls off.
Under the frame is 4 phillips screws that holds the floppy drive mounting case to the frame. If not, then there 1 screw at the back of the mounting frame under the CRT. Its rare but there could be 5 screws holding the frame in place- the 4 at the bottom and the 1 at the back. Either way when the screws are off, the back of the mounting frame tilts up and then you can pull out to the back the whole thing as one unit. The drive is in the mounting frame by 4 screws, 2 on each side. remove them and the drive should slide out of the front of the drive.
Under the frame is 4 phillips screws that holds the floppy drive mounting case to the frame. If not, then there 1 screw at the back of the mounting frame under the CRT. Its rare but there could be 5 screws holding the frame in place- the 4 at the bottom and the 1 at the back. Either way when the screws are off, the back of the mounting frame tilts up and then you can pull out to the back the whole thing as one unit. The drive is in the mounting frame by 4 screws, 2 on each side. remove them and the drive should slide out of the front of the drive.
Thank you Elfen, I will have a look and report back!
Related question...does anybody know if a Macintosh 512 KE can be boot from the external drive?
Elfen,
Thanks for your detailed explanation. I opened the Mac today (finally got the extra long 9" torx tool), and followed your instructions - partially. Everything makes sense, and I only see 4 screws holding the frame in place, so it should be simple to remove once I get the logic board out of the way.
At any rate, I got a little cowardly at disconnecting the Analog board connector from the Logic board connector. I think this is absolutely necessary for the logic board to slide out of the rails...
AIs there any risk of high voltage when touching that connector? I am picturing it in this post just for clarity... I can stick my hand in there without getting too close to the CRT or the larger capacitors I see on the board. Just want to be sure...
Thanks for your detailed explanation. I opened the Mac today (finally got the extra long 9" torx tool), and followed your instructions - partially. Everything makes sense, and I only see 4 screws holding the frame in place, so it should be simple to remove once I get the logic board out of the way.
At any rate, I got a little cowardly at disconnecting the Analog board connector from the Logic board connector. I think this is absolutely necessary for the logic board to slide out of the rails...
AIs there any risk of high voltage when touching that connector? I am picturing it in this post just for clarity... I can stick my hand in there without getting too close to the CRT or the larger capacitors I see on the board. Just want to be sure...
So I have serviced the drive cleaning out all dry Grease and lubricating all over again. I am still noticing what I think is abnormal behavior.
Please refer to attached video. The drive doesn't seem to inject the floppy be in one go. If I push it really fast it will all go in, but most of the time it just behaves the way I am showing in the video.
Please refer to attached video. The drive doesn't seem to inject the floppy be in one go. If I push it really fast it will all go in, but most of the time it just behaves the way I am showing in the video.
if i wouldn't have watched your video, then i would have never seen this 
I shed a tear for that was so nice!
LOL! Help a brother now . Is that normal for a floppy drive? Fix?
. Is that normal for a floppy drive? Fix?Its because you need more lubrication. There are grease joints under the sled carriage, and the actual base itself that always gets missed. They need hit. Unless you have a lightweight machine oil that will penetrate the two pieces of metal, you will need to remove the entire carriage assembly and then remove the 4 retaining washers, that will expose the joints.
I don't believe that is normal....but basically it is just lowering slightly until you push it in further and then it goes the whole way, doesn't appear that it would be an issue in its functionality.
or lube the heck out of it as stated above lol
or lube the heck out of it as stated above lol
I have it apart. Can you tell me from this picture what needs to be removed and lubed?
Indeed! That "Floppy Drive Orchestra" is quite novel!!
It's amazing what things one can do with this stuff.
c
It's amazing what things one can do with this stuff.
c
That carriage assembly, you will need to remove the 4 plastic retaining washers, and remove that slide carriage. There points directly underneath that contain gooed lithium grease that needs cleaned and relubed.
You will need to remove the eject motor beforehand. Also the eject motor contains a reed switch that tends to fowl up, and when it does, the eject motor will only turn half-way and stop. This will cause the drive to hang, not accepting nor ejecting a disk. it will appear to get stuck "half-way" and not accept a full insertion, after an eject is attempted.
This may sound odd, but it seems like I have been fixing nothing but floppy drives in my collection. My portable, then my mac classic, and then the Q700 also fowled up. And the mac plus. I had to do a track re-alignment on my Q700 drive.
You will need to remove the eject motor beforehand. Also the eject motor contains a reed switch that tends to fowl up, and when it does, the eject motor will only turn half-way and stop. This will cause the drive to hang, not accepting nor ejecting a disk. it will appear to get stuck "half-way" and not accept a full insertion, after an eject is attempted.
This may sound odd, but it seems like I have been fixing nothing but floppy drives in my collection. My portable, then my mac classic, and then the Q700 also fowled up. And the mac plus. I had to do a track re-alignment on my Q700 drive.
I assume the four washers you are referring to are the ones on the top of the picture I posted above. They just don't seem plastic to me, rather seam metal. In any case, I did not find a way to remove them. If you have any tips please let me know.
On a sidenote, I looked at the eject motor of my external drive, and I found that one of the small plastic gears had two or three teeth missing. I think that is the only failure on the external drive, which is making a weird grinding sound. Attached is a picture. Is it possible to find new or used Omron eject motors?
On a sidenote, I looked at the eject motor of my external drive, and I found that one of the small plastic gears had two or three teeth missing. I think that is the only failure on the external drive, which is making a weird grinding sound. Attached is a picture. Is it possible to find new or used Omron eject motors?
if the eject motor blows itself apart, its garbage, you would need a replacement drive. the gears are unobtanium.
The ones I always worked on, those clips are plastic. But you could have a different revision of the drive.
The ones I always worked on, those clips are plastic. But you could have a different revision of the drive.
Do you remove the clips from top!?
Anyway, I'm thinking: 3D print gear.
Or just remove the motor and eject manually?
Anyway, I'm thinking: 3D print gear.
Or just remove the motor and eject manually?
30 mins and I created a replica gear using ISO standard Gear ratios, which this seems to be based upon. 10:30 teeth count. Measured everything with micrometer.
I will try 3D printing, but I have no idea if a printed gear will withstand the necessary force... it may be too brittle. We'll see.
I will try 3D printing, but I have no idea if a printed gear will withstand the necessary force... it may be too brittle. We'll see.
if you had a microextruder, i dont see it being a problem at all.
I wish i knew more about cad and that shit, but I dont.
I wish i knew more about cad and that shit, but I dont.
The gear, due to its small size, should work great. It it were larger, there would be more strain on the plastic. "The Laws of Physics can not be scaled up no down." (Michio Kaku in his Physics of Science Fiction class, 1986)
Let us know how it goes.
Let us know how it goes.
Well if you make a bunch of these, and they work, let me know. I need some gears for mine. Depending on which gear it is your copying. I have one that needs both gears, the same one that broke on yours, and the one next to it.
Since I'm in the research stage of buying a 3D Printer, I would have to say that if your printer has a heated bed, it should make a stronger gear as the plastic cools slower and thus stronger and harder. The problem is in a fast cooling process where the gear would end up as weak and brittle.
And like I said before, at that size, there should be no problem with the gear. Forces at that size is at the milligram and gram (fractions of an ounce) level and not at the ounce and pound level. If that gear as 4-5cm (about 2 inches) then it would be too weak to do the task at hand.
that gear is smaller than a dime elfin.
Grear arrives Monday. I should be able to test it and will report back on results.
Update. I had partial success with the printed 3-D gear. It is making good contact along the small (slave) gear as you can see in the attached video. However the gear at the base is not making proper contact with the master motor gear.
I will print a few variations of this and see what works best. It may just be a resolution problem. We will try and see.
I will print a few variations of this and see what works best. It may just be a resolution problem. We will try and see.
So I just realized that I selected the worst possible material to print that part!. They do have an ultra fine detail option which I will be testing next. I have high hopes that it will work I will post progress soon!
Is the small side of the new gear, the part that's supposed to be making contact with the gear to the left of it in the video?
rather than the front side which we can see a gap?
rather than the front side which we can see a gap?
The new gear is on the far right. It is a compound gear, so it has a small gear at the top and the larger gear at the base. The one at the top is making proper contact. The one of the bottom is completely missing the master motor gear driver which you can see is not moving. It is the small golden gear. In confident the new part I am printing now will work.
I didnt think 3D printers had that kind of resolution. thats neat.
^ wow
The latest 3D printers have quite fine spatial resolutions.
It looks good. I agree, it might be a resolution problem. Or the plastic shrinking a tiny amount when it cools. I know you will get it, gnolivos.
What type of cad program, and printer are you using?
What type of cad program, and printer are you using?
Solidworks for cad. Shapeways for printing.
What is the diameter of the necessary gear? I see some 3010 gears on Ebay but it looks like they're about 16mm in diameter or a little more than 1/2 inch.
Ah, here we go. I was just seeing collections of many sizes, but here's one made up of several 3010-2B gears:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/20pcs-New-3010-2B-Plastic-Gears-Modulus-0-5-Robot-Parts-for-Toy-DIY-Accessories-/161182886963?pt=Radio_Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item25873fac33
Big diameter is 16mm. Small diameter is 6mm. Is that too big. Above TK wrote that the gear is smaller than a dime, so I'm guessing it is too big....
Ah, here we go. I was just seeing collections of many sizes, but here's one made up of several 3010-2B gears:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/20pcs-New-3010-2B-Plastic-Gears-Modulus-0-5-Robot-Parts-for-Toy-DIY-Accessories-/161182886963?pt=Radio_Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item25873fac33
Big diameter is 16mm. Small diameter is 6mm. Is that too big. Above TK wrote that the gear is smaller than a dime, so I'm guessing it is too big....
Diameter of the large gear is 9.4mm. Believe me, I looked all over the Internet and found several places selling these, but nothing in the exact size.
I have generated precise CAD for all four gears of the floppy drive. I am currently printing them in fine detail, and will be testing as soon as they arrive. I would let you all know if this works out the way I expected to.
arrive? as in you have to order them?
Yessir. I print at Shapeways.com
Ah. I see
A quick nerdy update to keep us all entertained
As long as the parts can print with fine enough detail, this is going to work like a charm, and we will be able to rescue a lot of 'bad' Mac floppy drives/motors. I heard from a few of you, that not only the smaller gear gets damaged over time, so now we will have a full set available to fix these floppy eject mechanisms.... if all goes well!
Heres some proof, a quick motion analysis I made of the parts I created (reverse engineered). Everything seems like it would engage properly with clearances etc.
As long as the parts can print with fine enough detail, this is going to work like a charm, and we will be able to rescue a lot of 'bad' Mac floppy drives/motors. I heard from a few of you, that not only the smaller gear gets damaged over time, so now we will have a full set available to fix these floppy eject mechanisms.... if all goes well!
Heres some proof, a quick motion analysis I made of the parts I created (reverse engineered). Everything seems like it would engage properly with clearances etc.
Super awesome! i love it.
Render...
More fun info while I wait for the gears!
You might want to check with some of the custom gear companies on-line and get a quote. It might be cheaper to have 100 sets run off than to print 20 sets. I don't know, but it's an avenue worth investigating, I think, unless the printed gears are already very affordable.
For example, when I needed a new gasket/seal for my vintage digital watch, I was able to send my last unused original to an O'ring company and they ran off 200 of them at less than $.50 each. Of course, I don't need 200 of them...
For example, you might ask for a quote from these guys:
http://www.rushgears.com/Replacement_Parts/
For example, when I needed a new gasket/seal for my vintage digital watch, I was able to send my last unused original to an O'ring company and they ran off 200 of them at less than $.50 each. Of course, I don't need 200 of them...
For example, you might ask for a quote from these guys:
http://www.rushgears.com/Replacement_Parts/
I can get a full printed set for about $17. Not bad.
Does anybody have a donor floppy eject motor that they want to give away to me? I really only need the black plastic enclosure, I managed to break mine and I can't further test of the gears although it looks like ithey will work very well!
Small gear tested, making it available to all HERE: https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/24328-replacement-gear-for-floppy-eject-mechanism/
Full set available now. Makes more sense to post this on the trading post / Classified boards...
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/24332-replacement-floppy-drive-gears/
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/24332-replacement-floppy-drive-gears/