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HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP

68kMLA Hardware 42 posts Dec 6, 2014 to Jan 6, 2015
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#1 Sat, 6 Dec 2014 - 17:19 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #1
Hello Guys,

I have a Macintosh Performa 200, it has a good power supply, Hard drive, CRT.. everything is okay with it except the logic board. 

The logic board has leaking capacitors, I have replaced them all with good quality ones, the motherboard has been soaked in battery distilled water for a whole night and cleaned thoroughly. the ram and SIMMS chips have been re-seated properly. even after doing all this, when the macintosh is fired up, it only shows scrambled black and white vertical lines with no start up sound. i have left this macintosh turned on for a while to see if it actually came back to its normal system display but it just stays like that forever. I have also heated the motherboard on a very low heat range with a heat gun to make sure all the solder joints are refreshed. 

everything I could think off and found on the internet has been done with it but its still not come back to its normal lifestyle. 

I have even also tried different RAM chips to see if thats the case but its still not helped.. what I am suspecting is that maybe the SIMMS chips are whats fiddling about. Do you guys think thats the case? I don't see any other issue with the logic board.. even if it was any solder joints, that would've been correct with the heat gun.. i really think its the SIMMS chips..

You must be think if i know the problem then why am i posting this issue here, the thing is i am not quite sure what SIMMS chips i can replace this with.. I have a working macintosh classic ii, SE, Macintosh Plus... 

your help would be really appreciated. 

THANK YOU in advance

See the images attached.. 

View attachment 4897

View attachment 4898

#2 Sat, 6 Dec 2014 - 17:39 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #2
Was the board washed before or after the caps were replaced?

And the electrolytic can caps on the board, you replaced those or those were original, and were they washed?

If you soaked the board with those caps on the board, then they have shorted out and needs to be replaced. 24 hours for a board washing is too long, and could have shorted out those caps. A washing should be 10 - 15 minutes, a 1/2 hour tops. Then after washing, the water should be chased out with acetone and alcohol and then blown dry with compressed air (best) or a hair blow dryer set to high.

Also, remove the ROMs from the socket and look at sockets and blow dry that.

#3 Sat, 6 Dec 2014 - 18:49 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #3
Yeah the motherboard was washed with the capacistors removed :. I did dry it up with a fan left on it for 2 hours and then with a blower and a heat gun.. So no chance of it being still wet.. I removed the ram and SIMMS chip plus the battery aswell

#5 Sat, 6 Dec 2014 - 19:25 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #5
Water can still be in there, like under the chips where space is tight. Alcohol can chase the water out, but I'm thinking what other damage a drowned board can have. These are 4 to 6 layer boards, and this can have other issues like the board pulling itself apart at the seams from the water that seeped in between the microscopic cracks, or traces broken as the board expanded while it was going out for a long swim.

360alaska has a good idea but I do not know if this late in the game it would work for you. Best you can do it try it out.

#6 Sat, 6 Dec 2014 - 19:39 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #6
ROLLERMANZ said:
The logic board has leaking capacitors, I have replaced them all with good quality ones, the motherboard has been soaked in battery distilled water for a whole night and cleaned thoroughly. the ram and SIMMS chips have been re-seated properly. even after doing all this, when the macintosh is fired up, it only shows scrambled black and white vertical lines with no start up sound. i have left this macintosh turned on for a while to see if it actually came back to its normal system display but it just stays like that forever. I have also heated the motherboard on a very low heat range with a heat gun to make sure all the solder joints are refreshed. 
Click to expand...
Hi Rollermanz, I'm not sure where you got this advice but I reckon you've hosed the board (literally, sorry to say!) by sitting it in water for hours on end.  Any water used to "wash" a PCB should be promptly taken away then allowed days of drying time to properly remove any remnants left behind.  Personally I don't like the "wash" method unless you have nothing to lose, I'd prefer to manually clean the board using isopropyl alcohol wipes/spray with the idea that it'll quickly evaporate once any capacitor goo has been removed.

Also using a heat gun at very low heat range isn't going to do a thing to "refresh" solder I'm sorry to say.

JB

#7 Sat, 6 Dec 2014 - 19:50 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #7
I forgot to mention that I first took the old leaky capacistors off and put the new ones on, i then tried it on and it showed the scrambled vertical lines .. So i thought maybe washing it up would be a good idea .. So this shows that soaking it in water didnt make it any worse, its jus been the same ..before i washed it up, i tried it on with new capacistors and tried it after washing with the same capacistors ..

Also i have soaked around 8 motherboards in the past and they all worked fine this way .. And always dried them up with a blower and a fan for hours .. It always worked out like that

#8 Sat, 6 Dec 2014 - 20:42 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #8
Ok. Look for bad traces, may need to check for point to point continuity.

Goo can eat right through them. Also look for uniservers thread and make sure polarity is correct. Some silks teens have been found to be incorrect.

Reseat any chips that are socketed as corrosion can cause issues also.

#9 Sun, 7 Dec 2014 - 00:46 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #9
Will it boot up properly with the RAM removed?

The other obvious question would be whether the recap was done right, but it sounds like you know what you are doing in that department.

#11 Sun, 7 Dec 2014 - 15:05 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #11
Well in your photo after recap there looks to bet "wet goo" spots in the areas by the capacitors.  

Its kind of the reason we keep mentioning caps.  i have had to use needles and screwdrivers to scrape some of it off from years of leakage.

#12 Sun, 7 Dec 2014 - 17:15 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #12
When you're use a distilled water bath, do you add a base (ammonia) to it to neutralise the acid?

Water only will not remove the dried acid on the print board that easily. A warm bath is also working much better than a cold one.

After the bad, an air duster can, or even a bicycle air pump (with a balloon valve for example) can be used to chase the water that stays under the chips, ROM sockets, CPU and the expansion slot.

I had very good results with these methods.

#14 Sun, 7 Dec 2014 - 19:19 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #14
There are no marks of water, whats on the board looking like water is some bits of the flux nt water .. But water wouldnt show scrambled screen.. Im quite sure its the SIMMS.. How can i sort out the SIMMS CHIPS.. Thanks

#16 Sun, 7 Dec 2014 - 19:48 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #16
Like 360alasks says, "bake it." But also look at ever trace with a magnifying glass and visually inspect the board! See it there are bad/rotted traces, pads and connections. Check with a multimeter, even a good looking trace could be bad. Fix what you find.

#20 Sun, 7 Dec 2014 - 20:25 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #20
Do 2 hours at 200F... And really, the best thing to do would have been to removed the old caps, put it in the dishwasher, rinse it with distilled water, put it in the over for 2 hours at 200f on a piece of cardboard and then solder on new caps...

#22 Sun, 7 Dec 2014 - 20:31 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #22
Guys to be honest, i am sure its not even wet.. I have washed 8 boards before and always dried them up like this and they always worked.. Im sure its not that case.. I want to know what can i do with the SIMMS CHIPS? How can i replace them and what can i replace them to ?

#25 Mon, 8 Dec 2014 - 06:22 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #25
40/60 solder melts at 368°F (186°C). Putting it into a 400°F oven will reflow the solder but it can also loosen other parts as the solder begins to flow. Timing would be tight on this if it is done: too much and parts begin to get loose, shift about and fall off; too little and nothing happens. You can also fry your chips at this temp if left too long.

200°F sounds better, but its not hot enough to reflow the solder. It will chase out any and all moisture from the board. And at long exposure it wont cook the chips.

#26 Mon, 8 Dec 2014 - 07:32 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #26
In order to do that correctly you would need to bring the board temperature up slowly to minimize heat shock, and you might also have to apply flux on a massive scale... Furthermore, when these boards are wave soldered at the factory the smt components are glued down so hopefully that glue still holds...

#27 Mon, 8 Dec 2014 - 15:54 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #27
The glue holding things down depends on how old it is and how much is used. I noticed in recapping some Powerbook Duos, the the least likely that glue is doing it's job on small pieces though it will be on larger pieces on older Duos (210 - 230, and at least 1 250 I've seen). On the newer PowerBook Duos (270s, 280s, 2300s) , that glue is still holding on all the pieces. This glue is red in color what what I seen.

#29 Mon, 8 Dec 2014 - 22:00 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #29
Get extra 30 pin Simms and solder on new chips.

The 30 pin sims in the slots you just pull out like normal memory.

But again have yet to see bad on board memory on these.

#32 Tue, 9 Dec 2014 - 05:56 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #32
ROLLERMANZ said:
just tell me what can I do with the SIMMS chips.. what can i replace them to ? I have a real feeling, it is them SIMMS chips whats causing the issue. 
Click to expand...
The Perfoma 200 is a Classic II; which has 4megs on the mother board. The RAM on the SIMM slots is supposed to take it to 10megs at most (2 more 4Megs will take it to 12Megs which 2megs it is blind too).

Question here is, does the Performa turn on and boots or gives a "?" inside a disk icon or does it still gives stripes? Getting the icon then it might be the SIMM RAM or something with the SIMM Socket. If it still gives stripes.... well, there is more to look for.

#36 Tue, 9 Dec 2014 - 15:24 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #36
It sucks they are soldered directly to the LB. In my 1st gen Classic II they are all socketed. Much easier to replace. You should be able to gut any Classic II and steal the ROMs from it to fix your problem if it is indeed the ROMs, since the Classic II and Performa 200 are identical (I'm fairly certain it comes up as a Classic II on the System 7 versions that identify the particular machine in "About This Mac")

Just make sure to check all the ROM traces on the LB before you go replacing the ROMs. If its actually a rotted trace and not the ROMs then replacing the ROMs will give you the same error as the trace will still be rotted.

#38 Tue, 9 Dec 2014 - 16:06 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #38
You could send me the board and I can at least swap the roms in from my P200 and tell you if it is in fact the roms... Someone with the right equipment could clone them conceivably... Also: I would suggest giving your newly soldered capacitors a gentle tug each way to ensure they are properly bonded... 

#39 Tue, 9 Dec 2014 - 17:38 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #39
Paralel said:
(I'm fairly certain it comes up as a Classic II on the System 7 versions that identify the particular machine in "About This Mac")
Click to expand...
Performas come with their System 7 that says Performa on "About this Mac." The issues here is the system end in a "P" like System 7.0.1P in the Performa 400. But if the system crashes and you reinstall a system from a Generic CD or Floppies, the "About this Mac" come up with the Non-Performa machine version; that Performa 400 I stated before becomes an LC II.

For the Perfoma 200, is you replace the Performa System version with a regular System Version, it becomes a Classic II on "About this Mac." Except for the label, they are the same machine.

#40 Tue, 9 Dec 2014 - 17:47 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #40
ROLLERMANZ said:
See the link attached.. These are the ROM/SIMMS CHIPS i am talking about which i am sure are the problem..

http://www.downtowndougbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/OriginalROMs.jpg
Click to expand...
Those are not SIMMs, those are the actual chips; called DIPs for Dual Inline Package. A SIMM is a Single Inline Memory Module, and goes onto a clip-socket on the mother board.

The problems is not (usually) the ROMs but the circuits that access them. Its more than likely that it's a bad or broken trace on it. You can check the connection of the ROMs themselves with a multi-meter. All but 10 - 12 pins on each ROM should be connected to the others. These 10 are 8 data lines and 2 - 4 Read/Write and Chip Select lines. These 10 - 12 lines you need to check to the connected VIA or the CPU. The ROM Address Lines should also connect to a VIA.

Edit Add: I have the same freaking issue with a SE/30 and I know that the issue is with rotted traces to a couple 74LS series chips on the board (the 74LS chips are replaced by the VIA on your board). I just have to sit down and actually trace the lines and replace the broken traces with thin wires. Just been too busy to get it done.

#41 Sun, 4 Jan 2015 - 11:22 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #41
I don't know if this helps or not, probably not but this video 

does show an SE30 with very similar symptoms. If the logic board on the performa 200 is similiar to the SE30 in particular the video chips perhaps this video can help.
#42 Tue, 6 Jan 2015 - 16:04 HELP WITH MACINTOSH PERFORMA 200 BOOT UP — #42
The Performa 200 is a Classic II. That is a BIG difference between a SE30 and a Classic II. The Classic II's board is 1/2 the size of the SE30 board; from the ports of the SE/30 to the first set of SIMMs and with a lot fewer chips. It is more like an LC II than a SE/30.

Because of this, the problems might be similar, its cure won't be. Where all those tiny chips on the SE30 board, there is only 1 chip on the Classic II board that replaces them all. So chances are that chip is either dead (highly doubtful) or you got rotten and broken traces around the chip.