Thread
I got a DUO!!!...but.......
So while all you guys are getting G4s and Xceed cards from Freecycle (lucky... 
), the only Freecycle Mac score that I can make (got it yesterday) is this one...Not bad, you might say, a PowerBook Duo 230, only my second Apple laptop! 
But...
It certainly is a very sweet machine, I can't believe how tiny it is, especially considering how old it is. It really is a lovely little design, like all of the old PowerBooks. It even has a trackball mouse - I've never seen one of these before and it feels as though it could be quite nice to use.
However, the but...(or should I say the buts... :'(
*No power adapter
*No screws in the bottom - despite this it has no problems staying together, although the keyboard is not very nice to use as it's not screwed down.
*Its working condition is unknown - the guy that gave it to me thought that it might not work even if I can find an adapter
On the plus side, it is in pretty good condition cosmetically, it seems to all be there (apart from the screws and adapter), and is that a memory upgrade of some description on the right there? I did put a wanted out on Freecycle for an adapter as soon as I got it home, but haven't had any responses a bit - I might try some more Freecycle groups to see if I can get one.
So, any ideas what I should do with it, seeing as it's pretty dead? What I have realised is that there is no floppy, CD, SCSI or ethernet on it, so is it impossible to install an OS and software on it without a DuoDock? (I did think the thing on the back under the cover was some sort of ultra-wide SCSI at first, but then I realised it must be for connecting it to the Dock) I guess if it already has an OS of some sort on it then you could LocalTalk a new system folder and software from another Mac, but otherwise you're stuffed? And these things can never get on the internet without the Dock either?
Some pictures of this little beauty, so sweet despite its dead-ness: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
PS I was flicking through the Apple Service Source manual for this model just to get an idea of where everything is on it, and I just had to show you guys this page, I knew you'd love it! 
), the only Freecycle Mac score that I can make (got it yesterday) is this one...Not bad, you might say, a PowerBook Duo 230, only my second Apple laptop! But...It certainly is a very sweet machine, I can't believe how tiny it is, especially considering how old it is. It really is a lovely little design, like all of the old PowerBooks. It even has a trackball mouse - I've never seen one of these before and it feels as though it could be quite nice to use.
However, the but...(or should I say the buts... :'(
*No power adapter
*No screws in the bottom - despite this it has no problems staying together, although the keyboard is not very nice to use as it's not screwed down.
*Its working condition is unknown - the guy that gave it to me thought that it might not work even if I can find an adapter
On the plus side, it is in pretty good condition cosmetically, it seems to all be there (apart from the screws and adapter), and is that a memory upgrade of some description on the right there? I did put a wanted out on Freecycle for an adapter as soon as I got it home, but haven't had any responses a bit - I might try some more Freecycle groups to see if I can get one.
So, any ideas what I should do with it, seeing as it's pretty dead?
What I have realised is that there is no floppy, CD, SCSI or ethernet on it, so is it impossible to install an OS and software on it without a DuoDock? (I did think the thing on the back under the cover was some sort of ultra-wide SCSI at first, but then I realised it must be for connecting it to the Dock) I guess if it already has an OS of some sort on it then you could LocalTalk a new system folder and software from another Mac, but otherwise you're stuffed? And these things can never get on the internet without the Dock either?Some pictures of this little beauty, so sweet despite its dead-ness: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
PS I was flicking through the Apple Service Source manual for this model just to get an idea of where everything is on it, and I just had to show you guys this page, I knew you'd love it!
I can't help you on most counts, but I will comment that it is possible to install an OS over the LocalTalk port -- assuming that you already have something to boot off of on the hard drive:
Boot, rename the old system folder, drag the system file to the trash, connect to the network via the LocalTalk port, run the installer from the other computer, when done verify that the new system folder is blessed else you will end up with a PowerBrick Duo 230. Reboot.
The Duos are nice machines. I once had one with over 32 MB RAM, and it was a dream to use in System 7. The keyboard was mushy though.
Boot, rename the old system folder, drag the system file to the trash, connect to the network via the LocalTalk port, run the installer from the other computer, when done verify that the new system folder is blessed else you will end up with a PowerBrick Duo 230. Reboot.
The Duos are nice machines. I once had one with over 32 MB RAM, and it was a dream to use in System 7. The keyboard was mushy though.
Since the screws are already out, you should probably try to open it the rest of the way and give it a good cleaning. You'd be amazed at the amount of dust and fluff that can get trapped inside a laptop.
Yes, I always worry about the amount of dust that must be inside my Acer as it has a lot of fans and vents on it and gets very hot even without being full of dust, but I'm too terrified to attempt opening it. I will probably wait and see if I can find an adapter before opening it though, as I would never risk opening a laptop that is working, as you can only make things worse
At them moment I have no idea whether or not it is in working order.Will screws from anything else work (I think I may have some spare PB520 screws, for instance, or just random ones that I can find lying around), or do they have to be specific Duo ones and therefore impossible to obtain without finding and scrapping another Duo?
Nice find there!
I have one of these (albeit the 280c) with Word 5.1, Spectre Challenger, etc preloaded. If I need to print something, I just connect it to the Personal LaserWriter NT. Simple.
I have one of these (albeit the 280c) with Word 5.1, Spectre Challenger, etc preloaded. If I need to print something, I just connect it to the Personal LaserWriter NT. Simple.
The Duos are not too bad to work in, unlike my old PBG4 (which had an uncountable number of screws, each of which seemed to be a different length, and the wrong length screw would result in a dysfunctional laptop).
But if you're expecting to clean out dust, I wouldn't bother. The Duo doesn't have a fan.
But if you're expecting to clean out dust, I wouldn't bother. The Duo doesn't have a fan.
FEETS!!!!!!!
My father told me that before getting good at stuff mechanically there is a certain amount of breakage that is going to occur, to the work, the tools, and your skin. It is best therefore to experiment gently on free stuff that is not rare and that is not known to be working... this minimizes any guilt!
Hmmm, in this particular case, for the lower section only with the missing screws, if you were to carefully follow the Apple Service Source Take Apart instructions, which are excellent, what could happen?
1. Might discover something significant inside missing/removed/burnt that means getting an adapter not required.
2. Might discover something conductive loose inside that should be secured/removed or a cable that should be reconnected before power up .
3. Hard drive could be gone, removed for privacy/security reasons.
4. Might find one or more metal inserts stripped or loose in their cracked plastic mountings that means replacement screws are not a sufficient fix.
5. Might discover blown fuses anywhere on the logic board.
6. Small creature got inside and never left.
7. Opportunity to clean and polish.
Maybe if you take apart something in unknown condition, especially if you have the service manual, you can only make things more likely to have the right outcome. And the more you do this, the better you will get. You can increase the odds by being gentle, taping removed screws near where they go back, and taking photos at key steps along the way. And by discharging any static charge to ground points, not IC signal connections. And should you fix it you will have bragging rights and be insufferably proud, which is what we want for you!
And what if you break something or lose your way? It was free, there will be more, you were never certain it would ever work anyway, now you know how we get our extensive spare parts collections built up, and we will never tell on you, as long as we never find out! [
] ]'>
Hmmm, in this particular case, for the lower section only with the missing screws, if you were to carefully follow the Apple Service Source Take Apart instructions, which are excellent, what could happen?
1. Might discover something significant inside missing/removed/burnt that means getting an adapter not required.
2. Might discover something conductive loose inside that should be secured/removed or a cable that should be reconnected before power up .
3. Hard drive could be gone, removed for privacy/security reasons.
4. Might find one or more metal inserts stripped or loose in their cracked plastic mountings that means replacement screws are not a sufficient fix.
5. Might discover blown fuses anywhere on the logic board.
6. Small creature got inside and never left.
7. Opportunity to clean and polish.
Maybe if you take apart something in unknown condition, especially if you have the service manual, you can only make things more likely to have the right outcome. And the more you do this, the better you will get. You can increase the odds by being gentle, taping removed screws near where they go back, and taking photos at key steps along the way. And by discharging any static charge to ground points, not IC signal connections. And should you fix it you will have bragging rights and be insufferably proud, which is what we want for you!
And what if you break something or lose your way? It was free, there will be more, you were never certain it would ever work anyway, now you know how we get our extensive spare parts collections built up, and we will never tell on you, as long as we never find out! [
] ]'>I can see your point; of course it's better to experiment on an old freebie computer than an expensive new one However, I really want to find an adapter first to see whether or not it is already in working order. Also it's such a sweet little machine and I'd feel terrible if I damaged it, even if it is found to be non-working Laptops don't appear on Freecycle very often so it wouldn't be easy to get another one anyway - I've only ever found one other Apple laptop before.
Desktop Macs I am willing to have a little look inside, for instance I found some bits and put them all inside my G3, though it was quite scary as it would have upset me so much to break that machine. Apples seem quite good for learning how to repair and upgrade computers in general, as the concepts are similar to PCs but they have the very detailed service manuals, which as you say are very helpful if you need guidance. Laptops, however, are generally best left to people who know what they're doing, as they're hard to open, easy to break, and not really upgradeable or repairable anyway. I think I've told the story before of the ThinkPad 570 that I was given a while ago, whose backlight wouldn't come on - I really wanted to get it to work but of course couldn't, couldn't even get the screws out of the thing! (it would probably have needed me to buy a new inverter or backlight anyway, even if I knew how to fit one, which I didn't want to do) Ended up eBaying it for about £20 profit, guess someone fixed it up and either got a good profit or a nice laptop out of it.
I will try the London Freecycle soon for one - there's so many members on there that you can usually get something that suits your requirements from there. I got the adapter and some screws for my PB 520 from there, which was also given to me minus adapter and screws! (yeah, I get all the best freebies don't I?! Not... )
However, I really want to find an adapter first to see whether or not it is already in working order. Also it's such a sweet little machine and I'd feel terrible if I damaged it, even if it is found to be non-working Laptops don't appear on Freecycle very often so it wouldn't be easy to get another one anyway - I've only ever found one other Apple laptop before.Desktop Macs I am willing to have a little look inside, for instance I found some bits and put them all inside my G3, though it was quite scary as it would have upset me so much to break that machine. Apples seem quite good for learning how to repair and upgrade computers in general, as the concepts are similar to PCs but they have the very detailed service manuals, which as you say are very helpful if you need guidance. Laptops, however, are generally best left to people who know what they're doing, as they're hard to open, easy to break, and not really upgradeable or repairable anyway. I think I've told the story before of the ThinkPad 570 that I was given a while ago, whose backlight wouldn't come on - I really wanted to get it to work but of course couldn't, couldn't even get the screws out of the thing!
(it would probably have needed me to buy a new inverter or backlight anyway, even if I knew how to fit one, which I didn't want to do) Ended up eBaying it for about £20 profit, guess someone fixed it up and either got a good profit or a nice laptop out of it.I will try the London Freecycle soon for one - there's so many members on there that you can usually get something that suits your requirements from there. I got the adapter and some screws for my PB 520 from there, which was also given to me minus adapter and screws! (yeah, I get all the best freebies don't I?! Not...
)I agree that Mac laptops are harder to liberate than desktop units but I think since you have the Apple manuals you really have a huge advantage over the average enthusiast wanting to learn. Again, I think there is an element of danger just powering up a new conquest in unknown condition that someone left partly open without doing an inside inspection first. It is frequently true that laptops and their accessories tend to have hidden screws, and even worse, those snap together once hidden plastic latches, that, even when you know where they are, and which way they unsnap, tend to break off when you try to unlatch them. But if you have no hidden screws, and no snap latches, just friction and a tight fit, laptops are not that much harder, just more packed. This may be the case with your Duo, I do not know. It's the part around the LCD screen that tends to have hidden latches and really well hidden screws, and if the service source tells you where they are you can learn to deal with it.
What I am thinking is that laptops that have no hope of being Internet usable, grayscale only, no PCMCIA slots and less than 32MB memory might be considered fair game to completely strip down and rebuild, getting you someday to the point where if a daily driver laptop needs some service or upgrade you already know the tricks to work with tight constructed plastics (including warming the plastic some with a hairdryer before bending it). If you could be ok with breaking some stuff to learn you eventually would become one of those people who know what they're doing. But if this one is too pretty, try finding another with a bashed in screen or broken case; the only way to get comfortable working on laptops is to take them apart and put them back together again with some help from manuals. More years on desktop systems is not going to help that much.
And if you plug in your adapter and hear some sizzle or arcing from inside, well, it was on my list of warnings. When I get something home with even loose screws, let alone all missing ones, that tells me someone else was in there for a reason, what was that reason?
What I am thinking is that laptops that have no hope of being Internet usable, grayscale only, no PCMCIA slots and less than 32MB memory might be considered fair game to completely strip down and rebuild, getting you someday to the point where if a daily driver laptop needs some service or upgrade you already know the tricks to work with tight constructed plastics (including warming the plastic some with a hairdryer before bending it). If you could be ok with breaking some stuff to learn you eventually would become one of those people who know what they're doing. But if this one is too pretty, try finding another with a bashed in screen or broken case; the only way to get comfortable working on laptops is to take them apart and put them back together again with some help from manuals. More years on desktop systems is not going to help that much.
And if you plug in your adapter and hear some sizzle or arcing from inside, well, it was on my list of warnings. When I get something home with even loose screws, let alone all missing ones, that tells me someone else was in there for a reason, what was that reason?
I think to "experiment" it would have to be something known to be completely dead, and also of no value for parts ie a 286 with a caved-in screen or something like that. This Duo is in nice condition, better than my 520 in fact, and it's a beautiful little thing really. And Macs have feelings, ya know It would be painful to break a Mac, especially one that might have worked if I'd left it alone. Newer known-broken stuff like the ThinkPad is no good either as they still have value, people buying them on eBay to repair or for parts, but not after someone's trashed them "experimenting"
The Apple manuals are useful, they certainly helped with the G3. They're available to anyone interested though, I just downloaded them (I've got all the 68k ones; I think I might archive all the PPC ones too at some point, as Apple keep shutting down the places hosting them and it would be annoying to not have access to them any more).
I did have a little peek under the keyboard, seeing as it's not screwed down - it all looks in order as far as I can see. I see your point about it being damaged inside, although I reckon on balance the chance of me making it worse by trying to open it up/not being able to get it to go back together again is higher than the chance of there being something loose inside that will kill it if I plug it in (presumably if that is the case then it was killed the last time it was plugged in anyway).
I think I'm too scared of breaking stuff (including myself, as in the case of CRT Macs, which I would never dare to open) to ever be a hardware guru :-/
It is the case that the Duo can never get online then? (as it doesn't really have any ports of any description) The 520 has seen the internet, although it does have built-in ethernet - for some reason it worked on the 100mbit network at uni, but didn't seem to like the router at home when I tried it.
Oh, and is that thing I showed in the picture at the top definitely a memory upgrade? If so is there any way of knowing what size it is without being able to power up the machine?
It would be painful to break a Mac, especially one that might have worked if I'd left it alone. Newer known-broken stuff like the ThinkPad is no good either as they still have value, people buying them on eBay to repair or for parts, but not after someone's trashed them "experimenting" The Apple manuals are useful, they certainly helped with the G3. They're available to anyone interested though, I just downloaded them (I've got all the 68k ones; I think I might archive all the PPC ones too at some point, as Apple keep shutting down the places hosting them and it would be annoying to not have access to them any more).
I did have a little peek under the keyboard, seeing as it's not screwed down - it all looks in order as far as I can see. I see your point about it being damaged inside, although I reckon on balance the chance of me making it worse by trying to open it up/not being able to get it to go back together again is higher than the chance of there being something loose inside that will kill it if I plug it in (presumably if that is the case then it was killed the last time it was plugged in anyway).
I think I'm too scared of breaking stuff (including myself, as in the case of CRT Macs, which I would never dare to open) to ever be a hardware guru :-/
It is the case that the Duo can never get online then? (as it doesn't really have any ports of any description) The 520 has seen the internet, although it does have built-in ethernet - for some reason it worked on the 100mbit network at uni, but didn't seem to like the router at home when I tried it.
Oh, and is that thing I showed in the picture at the top definitely a memory upgrade? If so is there any way of knowing what size it is without being able to power up the machine?
I read somewhere that there is 4MB soldered in and there can be 24MB total max for that model. Find the spec sheet for the memory chips, remove the single expansion board you have and count them (sometimes two sided surface mount), do the math and you know. Ground yourself if you do this as not to zap the electronics with static electricity. The other expansion position further to the rear is for a modem option, I believe.
Where do you find the specs of the memory? I tried searching the web with some of the codes printed on the top of each chip (below) but to no avail:
JAPAN 0013
9409 5NN
51W4800ATT8
It also says "KR 4094" on the memory board itself, but that didn't produce any relevant results either.
It's not clear how to get the memory module out either - in the manual they just show it as slotting in, but don't mention getting it out and it seems as though the side casing is in the way of sliding it anyway - I don't want to try just pulling at it!
Not that it matters greatly; I just wondered how much memory my PB had, as 4 MB is hopeless but if it's got 8 or even 12 then that would be quite nice. Haven't had any offers of an adapter yet though, so it looks like this little guy might be staying dead for a while longer :'(
JAPAN 0013
9409 5NN
51W4800ATT8
It also says "KR 4094" on the memory board itself, but that didn't produce any relevant results either.
It's not clear how to get the memory module out either - in the manual they just show it as slotting in, but don't mention getting it out and it seems as though the side casing is in the way of sliding it anyway - I don't want to try just pulling at it!
Not that it matters greatly; I just wondered how much memory my PB had, as 4 MB is hopeless but if it's got 8 or even 12 then that would be quite nice. Haven't had any offers of an adapter yet though, so it looks like this little guy might be staying dead for a while longer :'(
Only sometimes are you lucky enough to be able to find the specs, just the way you did, by Google searching the numbers marked. If the commercial part number is marked there is a small chance that you can find a spec sheet or part description of some sort. But most often memory parts have some special number that is negotiated between the big name memory chip maker and the expansion board manufacturer, yielding a dead end search. In the trade, these are called "house numbers" for in-house use only, forcing all would be outside service people to have to custom order a premium priced usually otherwise standard part from the board manufacturer.
My guess on those numbers is made in Japan, chip manufacturer identity code=13, ninth week in 1994 manufacturing date, mfg line, batch or process 5NN, customer or part number 51W4800ATT8, or just 51W4800, but I agree these do not look promising on my end either. In any case 24 MB is just not enough to have real fun on the internet, life begins at 48 MB and gets pleasant at 64 MB and above, IMHO. But for word processing and spreadsheets, I'm sure you have plenty as is, whatever the size of that expansion card. Originally Apple offered 2,4,6,8, or 10MB simm choices, at least as I read from an old Apple Compatibility Chart.
I looked at your photo again, and thought the logo looked like Hitachi. So I searched Hitachi memory catalog and saw the format of some of their commercial part numbers, that started with HM51..., so I reformatted your number as HM514800ATT8 and did a search. Eventually I got http://www.datasheets.org.uk/specsheet.php?part=HM514800ATT8 which says half a megabyte per chip.
Hold a dental mirror up to the modem option slot, which looks like the same socket manufacturer as the memory slot. However the modem is installed, chances are the memory board goes in the same direction...
Hold a dental mirror up to the modem option slot, which looks like the same socket manufacturer as the memory slot. However the modem is installed, chances are the memory board goes in the same direction...
Cool, thanks for that So that means at least 4 MB, 8 MB if there's chips on the other side too! 7.6.1 would be good on here, if only for an adapter and some sort of functioning OS already on the drive so that it could be installed from another Mac. Do you know what the thing in the modem slot is by any chance, is it some sort of board just to fill the space or something? It's not a modem as the space for a modem port on the back is blanked off, and the top of the board looks to be mostly just plain green with nothing on it.
So that means at least 4 MB, 8 MB if there's chips on the other side too! 7.6.1 would be good on here, if only for an adapter and some sort of functioning OS already on the drive so that it could be installed from another Mac. Do you know what the thing in the modem slot is by any chance, is it some sort of board just to fill the space or something? It's not a modem as the space for a modem port on the back is blanked off, and the top of the board looks to be mostly just plain green with nothing on it.The board in the modem slot doubles as some sort of power board; I think the reset button is there, in fact. The Duo modems also have it.
If you want to see if it works, any of the Duos will run from an adapter for the 1400, 2400, 3400, Wallstreet, etc. So while having a proper Duo adapter would be ideal, the easiest thing might be to find a pal with any of these others and try starting it up. It'll draw as many watts as it needs.
The 280c Duos are the pick of the 68k powerbook litter, in my estimation. Alas, I can't get mine to work properly, but I have a 270c which runs flawlessly. I even get a couple of hours out of the battery, using a ram disk.
There are some TV adverts for your own model, as I recall, archived (among other places) at www.danpalka.net/powerbookduo/ These offer a little light entertainment on a rainy day, and really show off the design element, which, as you say, is striking. My Duos are about the same size as my 12" Powerbook, and they are (for their time) stunners.
One small tip: once you get it going, persevere with the keyboard; they have a poor reputation, but mine improved dramatically with a little 'firm' use.
I also have a spare Duo power supply, but the shipping would be astronomical. Better to find something locally.
If you want to see if it works, any of the Duos will run from an adapter for the 1400, 2400, 3400, Wallstreet, etc. So while having a proper Duo adapter would be ideal, the easiest thing might be to find a pal with any of these others and try starting it up. It'll draw as many watts as it needs.
The 280c Duos are the pick of the 68k powerbook litter, in my estimation. Alas, I can't get mine to work properly, but I have a 270c which runs flawlessly. I even get a couple of hours out of the battery, using a ram disk.
There are some TV adverts for your own model, as I recall, archived (among other places) at www.danpalka.net/powerbookduo/ These offer a little light entertainment on a rainy day, and really show off the design element, which, as you say, is striking. My Duos are about the same size as my 12" Powerbook, and they are (for their time) stunners.
One small tip: once you get it going, persevere with the keyboard; they have a poor reputation, but mine improved dramatically with a little 'firm' use.
I also have a spare Duo power supply, but the shipping would be astronomical. Better to find something locally.
I don't know, originally I thought that was just the motherboard glass epoxy with an empty connector slot you could look into with a dental mirror, but now that you ask, maybe it is some kind of bus terminator that signals the machine things are normal, no modem installed, or maybe just electrically terminates some long signal runs so the waveforms look good to the rest of the system. You can try looking in the Apple service source for parts lists, maybe they will have a name rather than just a part number for the item.
Woah, seriously?! Awesome, that greatly increases my chances of getting a suitable adapter! I had looked at this page, where it seems to say that only Duo adapters (from any model of Duo) will work. Why is it less than "ideal" to use a non-Duo one though, will it cause damage long-term?
Do you know exactly which ones will and won't work then, as I need to know which ones to ask for on Freecycle. I'm pretty sure that the ones for later G3 PBs were different as the end of the YoYo adapter is much fatter than the hole on the Duo as far as I can remember what the YoYo is like, though I'm not sure what the first PowerBook that the YoYo fitted was.
Edit: hmmm, actually looking at it again it's not as narrow as I had first thought, it looks like there may be a gap around the inner ring in the hole, like on the machines that take the YoYo.
Ah, good idea
It says that it is an "on-off board", and is actually roughly underneath the location of the power button, so that is what it's for. Strange that the modem is combined with the machine's power button!They certainly are!
Amazing compared with what the PC world was offering back then. The only problem with them is the difficulty of getting software or files to them without the DuoDock. Shame they don't have a little USB port on the back, there's definitely space there! It would be ideal to use a Duo adapter only because it is a Duo adapter, so the plastics match, etc. As to which adapters will run it, I have had mine running off my brick Wallstreet adapter at times. In fact, I run a Wallstreet 233/ 12" screen from Duo adapter too.
I haven't tried the yoyo, but it should work: it runs the Wallstreet, so it should run the Duo.
I don't know if the extra wattage will cause problems long term. Anyone else care to comment?
I haven't tried the yoyo, but it should work: it runs the Wallstreet, so it should run the Duo.
I don't know if the extra wattage will cause problems long term. Anyone else care to comment?
I think it only takes what it needs.
OK then, I just looked up some eBay listings for G3 adapters, not because I'm thinking of buying one but because they normally list what is compatible with what. As far as I can see the adapter from any PPC up to and including all the G3 PBs and the 466 MHz iBook will work, except possibly the PB 5300, which none of the listings for G3 adapters seem to mention as being compatible. This is great news anyway, I will post a new Wanted on Freecycle and hopefully get something suitable! Thanks
If it were my Freecycle conquest I would just power it up with either my 1400 power adapter or a yo-yo, for test purposes and initial use. The only benefit of the Duo supply is that it will limit the damage more due to its lower current limit rating only if there should be an internal Duo overload or short, which I would have made unlikely by internal inspection before powering up. For a collection machine it is much nicer to have the exact Duo supply, for one the colors will match better. It's real good to have a 1400 and/or yo-yo supply around, they will power a number of models that will get you on the Internet comfortably.
Well I had given up on finding an adapter, but I just got this email in response to the note that I put on the university message board:
From the model numbers printed on the adapter it sounds like it might be an actual Duo 230, because M7777 is the Duo 230, M7778 is the external battery recharger for it and M7782 the Duo 230 battery. Do you reckon I should get just the adapter or the whole lot? I'm worried that the DuoDock might be absolutely massive, given that I'm really limited on storage space - does anyone have one? How does it compare in size to, say, a Mac LC? I don't know how far away it is yet ie how far I will have to carry it, which will be difficult if the Dock is heavy. Will I find the Dock useful - does it do much other than add the usual complement of Mac ports that the Duo lacks? Also I'm not sure from what they say if the Duo is jammed inside and so the whole lot might be useless, or whether they just don't have access to it or something like that.
I'd say it's about the size of 2 LC's stacked iirc. Definitely worth getting though! They probably can't get it for 2 reasons- It has not been turned on and ejected, or it is locked.
If it's locked without a key (they have a key?), is the whole lot useless then? The Duo can only be ejected while turned on can it? I think I'm going to have a look at it tomorrow, so I will decide upon seeing it whether I want all of it. Not quite sure what I'll do with two Duos though...
I had two Duo 230s a few years ago, but they were stolen when our house was broken into.
I'm on the hunt for a 270c/280c/2300c now.
I'm on the hunt for a 270c/280c/2300c now.
I don;t knowIf it does not have the key, I'm sure there are work-arounds.
With any of the Duos if you want to get online then you need to find of the micro-docks that have 10BaseT. Not the easiest things to find anymore
Otherwise you need to get a duo dock and add a Nubus ethernet card
Or a SCSI dock and a SCSI-Ethernet adapter, or one of the (slow) localtalk-ethernet adapters.
The ethernet microdocks are the best, though. Bummer I sold mine
The ethernet microdocks are the best, though. Bummer I sold mine
The Dock has slots? Wow, the Dock sounds really strange, almost like another entire computer. Apparently they can have graphics memory, a hard drive - everything you'd have in a complete computer! There is an AAUI ethernet card in my IIci - would that work or do you need special ones for the DuoDock?
Most Duo Docks has built in AAUI.
The Dock basically has everything that your Duo doesn't, to make it a full-fledged desktop computer. NuBus slots. Internal hard drive bay. Extra graphics memory.
I'm not really fond of AAUI transceivers. The connector doesn't really make a solid connection with the duo dock (or Apple laser printer) and can slip out if you move your equipment around. Besides, its way more fun to open the dock and install the Nubus card
Edit: spelling
Edit: spelling
Do not for get there is a place for the FPU chip
Ah I see - the card I have is only AAUI anyway. The transceivers have always been adequate in my experience at least, so I will have a go with that if I can get my router or wireless bridge to play nicely with old Macs this time! If I get the Dock I will have to have a close look at what's in it - I expect I will have lots of questions for you guys! Never really seen anything less conventional like this before...
Never really seen anything less conventional like this before...Right, I'm afraid I need your help...
So this morning I went and got these Duo bits, and I now have:
-DuoDock with Duo 210 laptop inside it (in addition to the first Duo 230 that I got before)
-Duo MiniDock (no ethernet though)
-HDI-20 Floppy drive
-Grey PowerBook-coloured ADB Mouse II (never seen one of these before)
-Apple Express Modem DAA
-Two Duo power adapters
-SCSI and USB (transparent) Zip drives with adapters - I was excited to see the SCSI one but sadly upon closer inspection the front is bent and there seems to be a bit of plastic floating around inside The USB one looks OK though.
However, most of this lot seems dead :'( First I plugged in the original Duo, and it does nothing when I press the power button on the front, and makes a high-pitched sound when I press the one on the back. The "new" Duo, the 210, briefly made that sound when I first plugged it in, but does fire up. The Dock simply makes faint ticking sounds when I plug it in (I had to get the 210 out by pressing the emergency eject switch on the side). Any ideas? :'(
The Duo service manual says "Make sure that the logic board mounting screw that also serves as a battery contact is installed. (Screw should be installed on contact located on right side)" - what is this about? Does it mean you need screws in the bottom of the case for it to work? I tried taking the battery out but it still wouldn't start up. Should I try holding down the rear power button?
The Duo 210 has a 75 MB hard drive and 16 MB Ram, currently with OS 7.1 installed, possibly some life in the battery though not sure if enough to actually be useable or not. Looks like it was last used in about 2001, judging by the documents on it. It has Netscape 2 on the desktop, which the homepage pointing to the university department's site - can't believe someone actually used that browser for serious web work even in 2001! It does at least have screws in the bottom, but has some security etchings on the underside of the case. It also has a shiny silver sticker on the top which doesn't want to come off - it seems more than just a paper sticker. Is there any way to get one of these off?
So this morning I went and got these Duo bits, and I now have:
-DuoDock with Duo 210 laptop inside it (in addition to the first Duo 230 that I got before)
-Duo MiniDock (no ethernet though)
-HDI-20 Floppy drive
-Grey PowerBook-coloured ADB Mouse II (never seen one of these before)
-Apple Express Modem DAA
-Two Duo power adapters
-SCSI and USB (transparent) Zip drives with adapters - I was excited to see the SCSI one but sadly upon closer inspection the front is bent and there seems to be a bit of plastic floating around inside
The USB one looks OK though.However, most of this lot seems dead :'( First I plugged in the original Duo, and it does nothing when I press the power button on the front, and makes a high-pitched sound when I press the one on the back. The "new" Duo, the 210, briefly made that sound when I first plugged it in, but does fire up. The Dock simply makes faint ticking sounds when I plug it in (I had to get the 210 out by pressing the emergency eject switch on the side). Any ideas? :'(
The Duo service manual says "Make sure that the logic board mounting screw that also serves as a battery contact is installed. (Screw should be installed on contact located on right side)" - what is this about? Does it mean you need screws in the bottom of the case for it to work? I tried taking the battery out but it still wouldn't start up. Should I try holding down the rear power button?
The Duo 210 has a 75 MB hard drive and 16 MB Ram, currently with OS 7.1 installed, possibly some life in the battery though not sure if enough to actually be useable or not. Looks like it was last used in about 2001, judging by the documents on it. It has Netscape 2 on the desktop, which the homepage pointing to the university department's site - can't believe someone actually used that browser for serious web work even in 2001! It does at least have screws in the bottom, but has some security etchings on the underside of the case. It also has a shiny silver sticker on the top which doesn't want to come off - it seems more than just a paper sticker. Is there any way to get one of these off?
OK, this whole lot seems a pile of junk - I tried the 210 again, having started it up and shut down again once, and it wouldn't respond when I pressed the front power switch, played death chimes (never heard any of those before on a real Mac) when I pressed the back one, and eventually started up normally after repeatedly jabbing at both the front and back switches. Should I just ditch all of this stuff, none of it seems to work properly? :'( :'( :'(
I have now at least managed to get the sticker off the lid of Duo 210, but it's left some gummy residue
I have now at least managed to get the sticker off the lid of Duo 210, but it's left some gummy residue
Hmmm, cost you nothing, not used for years...let's not be too hasty! Give the batteries in the 210, first the main and then the internal PRAM, time to charge overnight. Then if necessary you can research how to resync the power manager. Since the 210 does boot (admittedly with some extra effort) you can use it to verify both adaptors are good, and if either or both main batteries charge and have any capacity whatsoever. If you have at least one good adaptor and main battery pack, you can then apply them to the Duo 230 overnight to see if the PRAM internal battery can be recharged.OK, this whole lot seems a pile of junk...Should I just ditch all of this stuff, none of it seems to work properly? :'( :'( :'(
Apple uses a plastic alloy of polycarbonate and ABS in fabricating older Powerbooks so whatever solvent you use on the gummy residue needs to be compatible. Start with water and detergent. A mild citrus/petroleum distillate gum and tar remover (in the US, Goo Gone) works slowly but well. If you try to rush by rubbing with a paper towel the plastic finish will show rub marks when the surface is dry. Test on the bottom first to make sure the plastic is untouched, and avoid getting solvent drip on the LCD screen. Ethyl or isopropyl alcohol will remove some residues that the above gum and tar remover leaves untouched, but can lift the paint on some spray jobs. Avoid acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, and xylene, all of which will destroy the plastic.
NOOOO!!! Duo ditchers are shot at dawn around here [] ]'>
First step, read the profile of both models on lowendmac.com (from "mac specs" in the top navigation bar)
Then realise that all of these symptoms are common, fixable and have been encountered by folks here and at applefritter* dozens of times. Realise that the power adapters work, and you have a floppy drive and/or the Dock to do system software installs.
Then look at the fun fixit project you have in front of you, all free!
The batteries will be flat, if not dead. Leave the Duo on the charger (but not running) overnight or longer to get some juice into them.
Try removing the battery and the power, press the rear button and hold it down for a count of 60 seconds. Then put the power back in, but not the battery, and try a boot. Then try with the battery.
The 210 has decent specs for 7.1.
For the sticker goo, try naptha (sold as lighter fluid). A small drop on a cloth and rub away. Do a patch test on the underside first.
* btw the integrated search at applefritter is bloody useless. Use Google with "site:applefritter.com" after your keywords instead
] ]'>First step, read the profile of both models on lowendmac.com (from "mac specs" in the top navigation bar)
Then realise that all of these symptoms are common, fixable and have been encountered by folks here and at applefritter* dozens of times. Realise that the power adapters work, and you have a floppy drive and/or the Dock to do system software installs.
Then look at the fun fixit project you have in front of you, all free!
The batteries will be flat, if not dead. Leave the Duo on the charger (but not running) overnight or longer to get some juice into them.
Try removing the battery and the power, press the rear button and hold it down for a count of 60 seconds. Then put the power back in, but not the battery, and try a boot. Then try with the battery.
This is known as the "tick of death". Google that and duo-dock and you'll find details of the single capacitor that needs replacing in the power supply.
There's no picture?
The 210 has decent specs for 7.1.
For the sticker goo, try naptha (sold as lighter fluid). A small drop on a cloth and rub away. Do a patch test on the underside first.
* btw the integrated search at applefritter is bloody useless. Use Google with "site:applefritter.com" after your keywords instead
Thanks for the input so far, much appreciated
It just makes this high-pitched sound when I try to power it up using the rear button, the sound stopping when I release the button. The front button does nothing, not even the sound.
Earlier I pressed the 210's power button with the non-Apple battery inserted and no power adapter connected to see if there was any life in it, and the screen just flickered, as if there was a tiny bit of charge. After that I had the problem booting the 210 but since then it's been fine - could it be that it was unhappy about being almost started up like that but not having enough power to start up?
As for resetting the power manager, apparently you have to let it stand with no adapter, main battery or backup battery connected. The backup battery is buried away inside somewhere inaccessible, but it would maybe be possible to disconnect the cable connecting the backup battery to the logic board - is the one for the backup battery the one with three little wires, as opposed to the one with two wires (which is presumably the trackball)?
Both of the adapters appear to be functional though.
Edit: I just found a page that says these machines won't start up if the backup battery is dead - is this correct? The 210 was set to year 1904 when it started up, so presumably its battery wasn't charged either.
Oh, and another question about the batteries - the original Apple one seems to have a little slider on it that can be used to select between a picture of a full battery and one of an empty battery. Is this something to do with discharging it - are these the type of battery that has to be discharged before recharging? Should I do anything with this slider?
The power supply in my LC makes a very similar sound and then springs into life after about 10 minutes of doing that, but this doesn't seem to - is it a different issue? I do have a replacement LC power supply from Freecycle but haven't got round to putting it in yet, which will hopefully resolve that.
The little "Express Modem DAA" seems to rattle, so I don't know if that's dead too? This is maybe a stupid question, but is that supposed to plug into the port with a picture of a telephone sitting on a stand, or the one with a telephone handset and some dots coming out of it? What is the difference between those two ports? Most Macs only have the latter, don't they, whereas the MiniDock and DuoDock seem to have both.
Thanks again
Tried that just now with the 230, but still nothing
It just makes this high-pitched sound when I try to power it up using the rear button, the sound stopping when I release the button. The front button does nothing, not even the sound.So is it better to let the batteries charge and then try the 60-second thing described above? One of the batteries is a non-Apple one, so presumably a newer replacement, but that seemed to show 2 bars on the battery meter in OS 7.1, unchanging. The other (Apple) battery showed 5 bars when I started up just now, then dropped to 3 and is now back up to 5, apparently charging.
Earlier I pressed the 210's power button with the non-Apple battery inserted and no power adapter connected to see if there was any life in it, and the screen just flickered, as if there was a tiny bit of charge. After that I had the problem booting the 210 but since then it's been fine - could it be that it was unhappy about being almost started up like that but not having enough power to start up?
As for resetting the power manager, apparently you have to let it stand with no adapter, main battery or backup battery connected. The backup battery is buried away inside somewhere inaccessible, but it would maybe be possible to disconnect the cable connecting the backup battery to the logic board - is the one for the backup battery the one with three little wires, as opposed to the one with two wires (which is presumably the trackball)?
Both of the adapters appear to be functional though.
Edit: I just found a page that says these machines won't start up if the backup battery is dead - is this correct? The 210 was set to year 1904 when it started up, so presumably its battery wasn't charged either.
Oh, and another question about the batteries - the original Apple one seems to have a little slider on it that can be used to select between a picture of a full battery and one of an empty battery. Is this something to do with discharging it - are these the type of battery that has to be discharged before recharging? Should I do anything with this slider?
There's not, although I'm thinking now that it may be referring to one of the screws that is inside underneath the keyboard, as opposed to the ones in the underside of the machine (which are the ones that the 230 is missing).
Damn, so you mean it's dead? :'( (I can't do soldering/capacitors/power supply innards) I guess I will have to try freecycling it to someone else who wants it then - I have the MiniDock and HDI-20 floppy anyway, as well as a PowerBook SCSI adapter/SCSI CD drive from previous liberations, so I suppose I don't really need the main Dock - it doesn't seem to have the coprocessor, cards, Vram, or anything like that fitted, so there's presumably no advantage over the MiniDock? Is the floppy drive in it a standard auto-inject one that can be put in an LC or similar, as I do need one of those?
The power supply in my LC makes a very similar sound and then springs into life after about 10 minutes of doing that, but this doesn't seem to - is it a different issue? I do have a replacement LC power supply from Freecycle but haven't got round to putting it in yet, which will hopefully resolve that.
Nooo! *runs scared*NOOOO!!! Duo ditchers are shot at dawn around here [
The little "Express Modem DAA" seems to rattle, so I don't know if that's dead too? This is maybe a stupid question, but is that supposed to plug into the port with a picture of a telephone sitting on a stand, or the one with a telephone handset and some dots coming out of it? What is the difference between those two ports? Most Macs only have the latter, don't they, whereas the MiniDock and DuoDock seem to have both.
Thanks again
Don't toss/freecycle the dock! Really, you should try soldering. If you mess this up, it won't matter, right? If not...I Wonder about shipping to the US....
It's not just the fear of messing it up, more that I don't own any soldering kit, don't have any idea how to go about it, and don't really want to start doing messy/dangerous stuff like that which I'm sure I'd screw up anyway...and I don't know anything about capacitors either eg where you get them/which one to get/how to attach and detach them or anything at all...and I seem to remember hearing that it's very dangerous to open a power supply, they are meant to be left sealed (that's why they have all those warning signs stuck on them ).
The Dock isn't actually in great condition anyway - it's got the outline of a CRT monitor yellowed into the top, it has "Property of MRC molecular biology lab" etched into the top at the front", and as I said it doesn't have any of the bits fitted that make it better than the MiniDock (coprocessor, Vram etc - I assume there is no hard drive in there, though even if there is it will be tiny).
).The Dock isn't actually in great condition anyway - it's got the outline of a CRT monitor yellowed into the top, it has "Property of MRC molecular biology lab" etched into the top at the front", and as I said it doesn't have any of the bits fitted that make it better than the MiniDock (coprocessor, Vram etc - I assume there is no hard drive in there, though even if there is it will be tiny).
You might have to open up the 210 and disconnect and reseat the internal connectors. When I got the PB 150 I got recently home, it wouldn't power up and the hard drive just made clicking noises instead of spinning up. I took it all apart and reconnected all the cables and now it starts up and run fine (except the LCD screen which needs replacing due to a dead zone).
Do you mean the 230? (ie the one that seems totally dead, or the 210 that gave me death chimes at one point but seems OK now) Which cables in particular - do just the ones that I can reach under the keyboard do the trick?
I don't know what your Duos look like inside, but they can't be too dissimilar from my 150. I reseated the connections on the hard drive cable, the floppy cable, the lcd connectors, the modem card and another card that I couldn't identify that might be RAM. It powered right up after that. I don't know about the lock issue. Do you mean the Duo is secured inside the dock with a key and you can't get it out without it? You'll need a locksmith or someone gifted with a set of picks to get it open if that's the case.
No, I managed to get the 210 out of the Dock - luckily it wasn't locked as I didn't get the key with it. It wouldn't come out because I think it has to be ejected while powered on, but the Dock is dead so can't be powered on. I found some sort of emergency eject switch on the side though, which made it come out. The 210 that was in the Dock is the one that works; the 230 that I got originally (what started this whole thing! - If I hadn't got I'd never have got all this other Duo stuff and it'd still be languishing in a storeroom somewhere) is the one that just makes a high-pitched sound when I press the rear power button. I'm leaving it plugged in tonight as advised, though I don't know if that'll help to get it going or not...
I can't even see things like the hard drive from looking under the keyboard of the 230 - I think it is buried underneath somewhere. I don't really want to start demolishing it, so we will have to exhaust all other options first It may be that the 230 doesn't even work at all, as the person I got it from seemed unsure whether it worked.
- If I hadn't got I'd never have got all this other Duo stuff and it'd still be languishing in a storeroom somewhere) is the one that just makes a high-pitched sound when I press the rear power button. I'm leaving it plugged in tonight as advised, though I don't know if that'll help to get it going or not...I can't even see things like the hard drive from looking under the keyboard of the 230 - I think it is buried underneath somewhere. I don't really want to start demolishing it, so we will have to exhaust all other options first
It may be that the 230 doesn't even work at all, as the person I got it from seemed unsure whether it worked.I tried it again this morning but still no luck The only sign of life (?) it showed was that the Caps Lock light came on when I plugged it in after having unplugged it and held the rear button for 60 seconds. It didn't come on when I tried this for a second time though.
Also, any more thoughts on my questions in my post 7 above this?
The only sign of life (?) it showed was that the Caps Lock light came on when I plugged it in after having unplugged it and held the rear button for 60 seconds. It didn't come on when I tried this for a second time though.Also, any more thoughts on my questions in my post 7 above this?
When the 230 is powered up, can you turn the caps lock light on and off by repeated hits to that key?
Any response to repeated trials (like 15) of chorded (ctrl option command) keys held down simultaneously and pressing the keyboard front power button?
Will either dock support an external monitor and floppy with the 210? If so try the 230 in that dock with external monitor booting from a floppy. The interesting question is whether the 230 even tries to read anything. If the LCD is out, and the internal hard drive pulled, the caps lock key/light may be the only I/O bits connected without a dock.
Any response to repeated trials (like 15) of chorded (ctrl option command) keys held down simultaneously and pressing the keyboard front power button?
Will either dock support an external monitor and floppy with the 210? If so try the 230 in that dock with external monitor booting from a floppy. The interesting question is whether the 230 even tries to read anything. If the LCD is out, and the internal hard drive pulled, the caps lock key/light may be the only I/O bits connected without a dock.
Yes, I have had some response from the Caps Lock key, after having tried the thing you suggested of holding the rear button for one minute and with the battery out. Also, why do these machines seem to start up as soon as you plug them in (at least the 210 seems to), without actually having to press the power switch?
I don't seem to getting anything by repeatedly pressing the front power button with the other keys held down though. When I press the rear button it makes this high-pitched sound that doesn't stop until I release the button - what is that?
Would it not still chime if it was starting up but had no hard drive and the screen wasn't working? I can't try what you suggested at the moment as I'm not at home so don't have all my Mac bits here. I did try hooking up the MiniDock and the HDI-20 Floppy (the full-size DuoDock is apparently completely dead ) to see if I could hear it looking for a disc, but possibly Mac drives don't make that buzzing sound that PC ones do when there's no disc inserted.
Should I try disconnecting the backup battery for 10 minutes or not? I'm assuming it would be dead anyway so this wouldn't make any difference? If this is necessary, do you just pull out the cable to the logic board, there's no more to releasing the cable than that?
Holding down the rear button while it's plugged in wouldn't help would it? It just seems to make this squeaking sound if you do that.
Do you know whether they can actually start up with a dead backup battery? The battery in the other one is dead as far as I can tell but it still fires up - just I found a website that said you need a working battery to be able to start them up.
I don't seem to getting anything by repeatedly pressing the front power button with the other keys held down though. When I press the rear button it makes this high-pitched sound that doesn't stop until I release the button - what is that?
Would it not still chime if it was starting up but had no hard drive and the screen wasn't working? I can't try what you suggested at the moment as I'm not at home so don't have all my Mac bits here. I did try hooking up the MiniDock and the HDI-20 Floppy (the full-size DuoDock is apparently completely dead
) to see if I could hear it looking for a disc, but possibly Mac drives don't make that buzzing sound that PC ones do when there's no disc inserted.Should I try disconnecting the backup battery for 10 minutes or not? I'm assuming it would be dead anyway so this wouldn't make any difference? If this is necessary, do you just pull out the cable to the logic board, there's no more to releasing the cable than that?
Holding down the rear button while it's plugged in wouldn't help would it? It just seems to make this squeaking sound if you do that.
Do you know whether they can actually start up with a dead backup battery? The battery in the other one is dead as far as I can tell but it still fires up - just I found a website that said you need a working battery to be able to start them up.
If the caps lock light reliably can be toggled on and off with the key, at least some logic is powered up correctly, an encouraging but not definitive sign.
Some disassembly, close inspection, and disconnection may be necessary to locate the high pitched sound. Could be the speaker, or perhaps a malfunctioning LCD backlight inverter, or a malfunctioning onboard switching regulator having trouble charging some bad battery connections. If it's from the inverter swapping display components might yield a working 230.
Some of my powerbooks (PB1400) do not chime if the speaker volume is at minimum, do not know about the 230.
I think some 68kmla member commented that grayscale LCDs can be read even if their backlights are out if bright external light comes from the right angle. It would be good to look carefully to see if the blinking no boot disk found icon is being displayed with no backlight. Also try the contrast and brightness controls over their full range from min to max, if the PRAM is misbehaving these initial settings can be anywhere from full off to full on.
With respect to backup batteries, startup behavior upon plugin and power manager resetting, I am not an expert and my experience contradicts some of what I have read on the net. It's clearly best to have known good batteries from the 210 to debug the 230. I have seen powerbooks refuse to boot without charged PRAM batteries, and I have one yet to be investigated 520 that boots but looses PRAM LCD, date, time and mouse settings. I am suspecting there are degrees of badness, such as half battery voltage, that preserve settings but might disable writing or updating settings. Somewhere on the net I have seen a big list by powerbook model of how to reset the power manager, and it is model dependent. Some disassembly and measuring the voltage of the batteries and debugging with known good ones helps to reduce the number of unknowns.
I've not found it necessary to remove or disconnect the internal PRAM battery to do a reset, only the removable main battery and of course the adaptor plug followed by the button combinations that you have already tried. But I do support the recommendations of others to get inside and disconnect and reseat internal connectors, including the PRAM battery, just to overcome minor corrosion bad connections that are common due to age.
Some disassembly, close inspection, and disconnection may be necessary to locate the high pitched sound. Could be the speaker, or perhaps a malfunctioning LCD backlight inverter, or a malfunctioning onboard switching regulator having trouble charging some bad battery connections. If it's from the inverter swapping display components might yield a working 230.
Some of my powerbooks (PB1400) do not chime if the speaker volume is at minimum, do not know about the 230.
I think some 68kmla member commented that grayscale LCDs can be read even if their backlights are out if bright external light comes from the right angle. It would be good to look carefully to see if the blinking no boot disk found icon is being displayed with no backlight. Also try the contrast and brightness controls over their full range from min to max, if the PRAM is misbehaving these initial settings can be anywhere from full off to full on.
With respect to backup batteries, startup behavior upon plugin and power manager resetting, I am not an expert and my experience contradicts some of what I have read on the net. It's clearly best to have known good batteries from the 210 to debug the 230. I have seen powerbooks refuse to boot without charged PRAM batteries, and I have one yet to be investigated 520 that boots but looses PRAM LCD, date, time and mouse settings. I am suspecting there are degrees of badness, such as half battery voltage, that preserve settings but might disable writing or updating settings. Somewhere on the net I have seen a big list by powerbook model of how to reset the power manager, and it is model dependent. Some disassembly and measuring the voltage of the batteries and debugging with known good ones helps to reduce the number of unknowns.
I've not found it necessary to remove or disconnect the internal PRAM battery to do a reset, only the removable main battery and of course the adaptor plug followed by the button combinations that you have already tried. But I do support the recommendations of others to get inside and disconnect and reseat internal connectors, including the PRAM battery, just to overcome minor corrosion bad connections that are common due to age.
Pressing the rear button seems to (sometimes) get into a state where the caps lock light will work, while the front button does nothing. If I power it on with the rear button, pressing Cmd+Ctrl+front power doesn't make the caps lock light go out or seem to do anything. Pressing the rear button makes it go out, and also makes the squeaking sound (at the moment it seem to be making that noise only when I turn it off with the rear button, not on).
The backup battery in the 210 seems dead too, or at least it was showing year 1904. I don't have any working PB backup batteries - the 520's is dead too but it works without it (it does forget the backlight settings etc though).
The squeaking seems to be to do with power, though I don't know what - the 210 seems to do it briefly at the moment I plug the adapter in, while this one does it while I am pressing the rear switch.
There's nothing on the screen as far as I can see - no signs of life apart from squeaking and the caps lock light
This is the method for resetting the power manager that I found for the Duo - basically it just says hold the power button on the rear down for a while, and if that doesn't work try removing all power sources for 10 minutes and then try again (though it doesn't say whether to hold the rear power button again or not)). I've tried all that (except disconnecting the internal battery, which looks dead anyway) to no avail
Edit: the squeaking seems to be coming from the point where the power lead plugs into the machine, though as I said the 210 does it briefly when you first plug it in too, so I don't know if it's a problem or not (though this one does it when you press the rear switch, as opposed to when you plug it in).
The backup battery in the 210 seems dead too, or at least it was showing year 1904. I don't have any working PB backup batteries - the 520's is dead too but it works without it (it does forget the backlight settings etc though).
The squeaking seems to be to do with power, though I don't know what - the 210 seems to do it briefly at the moment I plug the adapter in, while this one does it while I am pressing the rear switch.
There's nothing on the screen as far as I can see - no signs of life apart from squeaking and the caps lock light
This is the method for resetting the power manager that I found for the Duo - basically it just says hold the power button on the rear down for a while, and if that doesn't work try removing all power sources for 10 minutes and then try again (though it doesn't say whether to hold the rear power button again or not)). I've tried all that (except disconnecting the internal battery, which looks dead anyway) to no avail
Yes, well that is the absolute last resort should nothing else work, second only to the poor 'book hitting the bin I guess... :'( :'( :'(
Edit: the squeaking seems to be coming from the point where the power lead plugs into the machine, though as I said the 210 does it briefly when you first plug it in too, so I don't know if it's a problem or not (though this one does it when you press the rear switch, as opposed to when you plug it in).
Well, you can't do better than that article for authoritative info on the power manager. Well, it's a bit beyond the warranty period anyway, you might have to go in and do some careful exploratory surgery on one or both DUOs. No guarantee that something else is not additionaly wrong, but the bad PRAM battery is a known boot stopper (sometimes) that needs to be overcome. And so are bad connections. Sometimes one of my 1400 powerbooks gets in a indeterminate startup state with blank screen on. The convenient escape seems to be three keys, control option command together with the front power button. The power manager is a bit of mystery to me, but the reset works for me.
Just now I seemed to get it into a state (by pressing combinations of power buttons etc) where it's emitting a little squeak from the place where the power cord enters the machine about every 2 seconds - the sound seems to be related to power going into/through the machine (come to think of it, it's a bit like that sound you get when the lead is coming a little way out of your laptop adapter, if you know the sound I mean), and is possibly coming from the direction of the two small square things in that corner of the machine under the keyboard that have white labels with some numbers and "AT+T" on them, and it looks like there's a coil of very thin copper wire underneath the label, whatever those things are. I tried unplugging it, and when I plugged it back in and pressed the front power switch it started doing the same thing again, a little squeak every two seconds.
I assume that the backup batteries are nothing resembling an ordinary battery though, so there is no way they could be easily replaced anyway, so if it needs replacing to be able to start up then the machine is dead :'(
I definitely want to avoid fiddling with the working and complete Duo (the 210), given that opening a working machine (especially having never opened a laptop before!) can only make things worse... The screws look to be those ones that can't easily be released with normal screwdrivers anyway.
They're 8 bit Torx screws, you'll need a Torx-8 screwdriver...you can get 'em at most electronics stores.
I took another close look at the photograph of the 230 you posted re memory expansion, which shows the whole logic board. It looks to me like all of the connections that one might unplug/replug are accessible when the keyboard is lifted. Just ground yourself to the metal outer frame to equalize any static charge difference before touching anything inside, although just lifting the keyboard by its frame probably does this anyway.
The two magnetic components marked AT&T are part of the DC power conversion apparatus for converting the 24 volts input to voltages needed for battery charging and by the laptop. When they are operating correctly they vibrate slightly at an ultrasonic frequency. Their solder joints need to be carefully inspected for cracking and if you can get really tight sharp (tripod mounted) photos of them (the solder joints) and of the area to the left of them and above D4 right around the 33/25V round surface mount electrolytic capacitor (yes, the very same case style that leaks and needs to be replaced in SE/30s) we can look for irregularities and corrosive fluid leakage.
If you look at the area right above the trackball, there (left to right) appear to be four connectors, first the case latch switch that commands sleep when the cover is closed, then the trackball connector, then the three wire PRAM battery connector, and then (gulp) the place where I think the hard drive flexible PC connector should have been plugged. If that connector block thing with 30 positions is marked J15, it is an indication that the drive was pulled.
Once the top cover is removed per the Apple service manual, the PRAM battery is easily replaced (a mail order or eBay item, but be careful you get the correct part number, some of the eBay ads are wrong!)
The two magnetic components marked AT&T are part of the DC power conversion apparatus for converting the 24 volts input to voltages needed for battery charging and by the laptop. When they are operating correctly they vibrate slightly at an ultrasonic frequency. Their solder joints need to be carefully inspected for cracking and if you can get really tight sharp (tripod mounted) photos of them (the solder joints) and of the area to the left of them and above D4 right around the 33/25V round surface mount electrolytic capacitor (yes, the very same case style that leaks and needs to be replaced in SE/30s) we can look for irregularities and corrosive fluid leakage.
If you look at the area right above the trackball, there (left to right) appear to be four connectors, first the case latch switch that commands sleep when the cover is closed, then the trackball connector, then the three wire PRAM battery connector, and then (gulp) the place where I think the hard drive flexible PC connector should have been plugged. If that connector block thing with 30 positions is marked J15, it is an indication that the drive was pulled.
Once the top cover is removed per the Apple service manual, the PRAM battery is easily replaced (a mail order or eBay item, but be careful you get the correct part number, some of the eBay ads are wrong!)
I tried removing and replacing the one that looks like the ribbon cable to the screen - there's not much else in there that would really come out as far as I could tell.
I can't see any problems in that area of the board with my untrained eye - as far as I can tell there's no leakage around the capacitor and the bits around the AT&T-marked components don't appear damaged. I don't have a proper camera, this is the best picture I can get with my phone at the moment (it might work better when it's sunnier here though), though you probably can't really see anything from that.
Damn!! >
:'( You mean that's where the cable from the hard drive is supposed to come in? Well if there's no drive in it then it's definitely dead then, as these drives are impossible to come by and I don't have any spares (even the one in my PB520 barely works). What's really irritating is that it's the better PowerBook that is dead - if it was the 210 that was dead then I'd just give it to one of you guys and be happy with the 230. As it is the 230 is better, and also the underside of the 210 has security etchings so is not such a good collector's piece.RIP PowerBook Duo 230, 1992-2007 :'(
One thing - could be bad RAM. Try with no extra RAM in the slot, then with known good RAM from the 210, and the 210's hard drive. The Duo can be a bit persnickety about RAM apparently.
How exactly do you get the Ram card out? They show it just being put down into the machine and then pushed into the slot in the service manual, to install it, but they don't show you how to get it out and there's not anywhere that I can see that you can get a grip on it to pull it out of the slot (it's all surrounded by other bits and there's no gaps around the slot that you can lever it out from) - it seems very firmly stuck in there.
Edit: nevermind, got it out in the end. Duo is still very much dead though :'(
PS the Ram card does have chips on both sides, so must be another 8 megger from what we discussed before about the chip sizes.
Edit: nevermind, got it out in the end. Duo is still very much dead though :'(
PS the Ram card does have chips on both sides, so must be another 8 megger from what we discussed before about the chip sizes.
Well, at this point you've got little to lose...
I've encountered several Duos (and other models, for that matter) with similar behaviors. If you look closely at your ckt boards, I'm willing to be that you'll see telltale smudges from goop that's leaked out of some electrolytic capacitors. If that's the case, you can revive the 'books by a thorough clean and replacement. Unfortunately, this involves soldering, which you have declared is a non-starter for you. If you're really determined not to solder, there's no harm in putting the logic board through the dishwasher (crazy as it sounds, I'm completely serious). Maybe a clean alone will get it to a functioning state.
I've encountered several Duos (and other models, for that matter) with similar behaviors. If you look closely at your ckt boards, I'm willing to be that you'll see telltale smudges from goop that's leaked out of some electrolytic capacitors. If that's the case, you can revive the 'books by a thorough clean and replacement. Unfortunately, this involves soldering, which you have declared is a non-starter for you. If you're really determined not to solder, there's no harm in putting the logic board through the dishwasher (crazy as it sounds, I'm completely serious). Maybe a clean alone will get it to a functioning state.
There was possibly a very very tiny amount of stuff near the capacitor in the top left under the keyboard (only one I can see in there), though so little it seems unlikely to make a difference - I just wiped it off but that made no difference, still squeaking when pressing the rear power button and just the caps lock light. I don't really see how the board could survive being washed - things like the coils look very delicate, and wouldn't the metal parts go rusty? I know people have done it, but it just seems so impossible!
Thing is, it's now looking like there's not even a hard drive in the 230, so even if it could be brought back from the dead it is still unusable, and there is no way I am going to try busting into the working 210 just to get its hard drive out, as I would probably just end up with two dead Duos instead of just one. So I think the Duo 230 is, very sadly, dead :'(
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about the "Apple Express Modem DAA" device that came with this lot of Duo bits? There seems to be very little info about it online, and while I'm unlikely to use it I would still like to know how it works.
I thought that on the Duo the modem is built-in, as there's a place inside for one and a blanked-off port on the back of the Duo, so is this DAA one an alternative to the built-in one or is this like one hlaf of the built-in one, and you have to connect both together for it to function? Neither of my Duos has the built-in one, but on the back of the MiniDock there are two identical ports that it would fit into, one with a picture of an entire telephone and one with just the telephone handset and some dots coming out of it. What is the difference between these two ports, and is the DAA modem meant to be connected to one of those in order to work? It's presumably only for the Duo - other Macs do seem to have the latter port though, but not the former.
I thought that on the Duo the modem is built-in, as there's a place inside for one and a blanked-off port on the back of the Duo, so is this DAA one an alternative to the built-in one or is this like one hlaf of the built-in one, and you have to connect both together for it to function? Neither of my Duos has the built-in one, but on the back of the MiniDock there are two identical ports that it would fit into, one with a picture of an entire telephone and one with just the telephone handset and some dots coming out of it. What is the difference between these two ports, and is the DAA modem meant to be connected to one of those in order to work? It's presumably only for the Duo - other Macs do seem to have the latter port though, but not the former.
See http://www.linkclub.or.jp/~maakun/EM.html for what appears to be two approaches to modems, one that is US-centric, with built in RJ-11 connection point, and another that pins out to a mini Din-8 and assumes an additional Direct Access Arrangement module that converts electrical signals to conform to the requirements of a specific country's telephone system.
Regarding symbols, the phone with the three dots is usually the label for the serial port that is preferred for serial connected external modems, and has higher interrupt priority than the printer port. These two ports conform to the RS-232/RS-422 standards in which data is communicated by two different levels of voltage to indicate 0/1. This is in contrast to the telephone line modem conventions, which vary widely but generally send 0/1 with different tones, and changes in amplitude and/or phase of tones.
The complete telephone symbol is usually the label for a telephone line connection, possibly through an required additional DAA module. Plugging the DAA module into either serial port would be futile, it goes strictly into the international modem port with the telephone symbol, where, when the correct international modem is installed, there is some elaborate circuitry that converts between computer 0/1 and the appropriate tone signals required for telephone dial up connection.
Regarding symbols, the phone with the three dots is usually the label for the serial port that is preferred for serial connected external modems, and has higher interrupt priority than the printer port. These two ports conform to the RS-232/RS-422 standards in which data is communicated by two different levels of voltage to indicate 0/1. This is in contrast to the telephone line modem conventions, which vary widely but generally send 0/1 with different tones, and changes in amplitude and/or phase of tones.
The complete telephone symbol is usually the label for a telephone line connection, possibly through an required additional DAA module. Plugging the DAA module into either serial port would be futile, it goes strictly into the international modem port with the telephone symbol, where, when the correct international modem is installed, there is some elaborate circuitry that converts between computer 0/1 and the appropriate tone signals required for telephone dial up connection.
The DAA (somfink somfink Adapter) was issued with international (non-US) versions of the Duo. It adapts the internal modem to the line conditions of different countries. That way they could install one modem card in all the export Duos, and just make a different DAA for each country's telecom regulations.
I would HIGHLY encourage you to continue with this project if you are finding it interesting so far. However, if you decide in the future to pack it in and scrap them for parts, would you be so kind as to PM me? [] ]'>
I would HIGHLY encourage you to continue with this project if you are finding it interesting so far. However, if you decide in the future to pack it in and scrap them for parts, would you be so kind as to PM me? [
] ]'>So the little "Express Modem DAA" box is like one half of a modem, and has to be connected to the port with the complete telephone on it to make a complete one? Is the other half of the modem built into the MiniDock, which has a port with that symbol on it, or do you have to have the modem card actually inside the Duo for that port on the MiniDock to be active?
Have to have the international modem installed in the Duo. It's like the DAA is the country specific 1/10 of a modem, the minidock is just a wiring pass through, and the international modem card contains the 9/10 of the modem function that is country independent.
Ah I see, thanks for the explanation I therefore couldn't use it anyway as neither Duo seems to have the internal bit. The 210 must have done at some stage though because it came with the Express DAA module and also the little blanking square for where the port goes is missing, but I don't know what happened to it!
I therefore couldn't use it anyway as neither Duo seems to have the internal bit. The 210 must have done at some stage though because it came with the Express DAA module and also the little blanking square for where the port goes is missing, but I don't know what happened to it!It must have been a marvel in its day to travel with such a lightweight laptop and a small collection of DAAs and be able to dialup for email back to corporate headquarters from just about anywhere in the world. [] ]'>
] ]'>Yes, the Duos must have been way ahead of their time when new, for many reasons. They just look so much more modern than the PC laptops of the day, and to me at least seem tiny even for a current laptop! Just a shame they don't have a USB port, maybe under the foot where there is a Mac serial port, as that would be an excellent way of getting files in and out of them without needing to have space occupied by drives. The DuoDock is a great idea in that it contains extra Ram and CPU power and everything, and really does give you the benefits of a tiny laptop and a full desktop together!It must have been a marvel in its day to travel with such a lightweight laptop and a small collection of DAAs and be able to dialup for email back to corporate headquarters from just about anywhere in the world. [
There's nothing really to continue with really - the 210 is complete and working, so I will set that up with OS 7.6 when I'm at home with my CD drive etc and have a little play with it, as it's such a sweet little Mac so should be plenty of fun (they both have 12 MB of Ram, which is a plus point of course). The power adapters and the MiniDock work, so they will be useful for that. The 230 is dead and missing parts, so will languish in the bottom of a drawer. The DuoDock is dead and is sadly on the way to being binned as no-one seems to want it - tonight I made an eBay listing for it but it probably won't sell. Postage will be around £10-£12 for the weight, and who's going to pay that for something that's dead?I would HIGHLY encourage you to continue with this project if you are finding it interesting so far. However, if you decide in the future to pack it in and scrap them for parts, would you be so kind as to PM me? [
The reason I'm probably going to hang on to the 230 is that I would love to combine the two into a working 230 without the etched-underside base of the 210 - there is no way at all I am busting into a fully working 210 to do that, but I just thought one day there might be a chance I will have built up the requisite knowledge and confidence by playing around with lots of dead laptops. For the cost of shipping to any of this stuff to Australia from here you could probably buy an iBook or something anyway!
For the want of a tuppence capacitor and two minutes of soldering time, you're going to bin the Dock?? NO says the MLA .... [}] ]'>
Remove the power supply and take printouts of the repair instructions to your local dodgy TV repair guy. He should fix it right up for a few squid, or maybe for free/beer if you're friendly
Then you will know the joy of cheap Nubus cards ...
BTW there's another hack that lets you use the Duo keyboard, trackball and screen while it's in the Dock...
] ]'>Remove the power supply and take printouts of the repair instructions to your local dodgy TV repair guy. He should fix it right up for a few squid, or maybe for free/beer if you're friendly
Then you will know the joy of cheap Nubus cards ...
BTW there's another hack that lets you use the Duo keyboard, trackball and screen while it's in the Dock...
How bad is the etched underside? Bog, sandpaper and a bit of paint can work wonders...
You'll all be pleased to know that there's a happy ending for the story of the Duo Dock that was heading for the bin: someone put a bid on the eBay listing I made for it, right at the last minute, and paid £0.99 for the Dock and nearly £40 for it to be posted to Portugal (it seems really expensive to post items heavier than 2kg overseas from the UK, for some reason)...must be one of you guys mustn't it, no-one else would be that crazy! ;D It's now on its way in a large box to a new life in sunny Portugal, having come so close to having to be "dragged to the Trash"...
Now to find someone that will combine the two Duos into one working Duo 230 with no base etchings, and take the extra bits for the second Duo off my hands }
;D It's now on its way in a large box to a new life in sunny Portugal, having come so close to having to be "dragged to the Trash"... Now to find someone that will combine the two Duos into one working Duo 230 with no base etchings, and take the extra bits for the second Duo off my hands }
Oh my gosh, forty pound? What a tart! 8-o Still, I guess there had to be one rich person with an insatiable fetish for old Mac gear in the world! Good to know we won't have to give you a dishonourable discharge! [8D]
If i was in the UK i'd be more than happy to help you out Macster, having completely stripped out and successfully reassembled a 210 before.
Well, I'd have to have kept it quiet had I needed to bin it, wouldn't I? Although it seems to be acceptable here to scrap dead hardware - from what I can tell, a lot of us have thrown out/scrapped for parts dead machines. I do hope my buyer isn't too disappointed when it turns up - it was very clear in my listing that it's dead though, and I reminded him of that fact before he paid. He seemed very friendly though - I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he hangs out here!Very jealous of your hardware skills, I really admire people that can do things like that
Dana's recent tale of the Wallstreet resurrection was amazing! It's really nice that you'd help if you could too - I'd make a set of Tiger discs for you or something like that in return Oh - dead. Missed that bit. Well, I hope it's acceptable considering what I did to that dead Classic, if anyone remembers that. A dock is a bit rarer though I s'pose.
Yeah, I don't really know how common they are to be honest - they don't seem to come up on eBay very often at all though.
That bloke has probably been sitting there every day typing in "duo dock" just waiting for one to come up. [] ]'>
Rather like what I do with Edwardian gilded monogrammed snuff boxes.
] ]'>Rather like what I do with Edwardian gilded monogrammed snuff boxes.
It does actually look like people are willing to pay silly amounts for Duo Dock stuff - look how much this seller thinks he will be able to get just for a working power supply (the part that causes all of them to die eventually - this is what was wrong with mine) for the Duo Dock! A Duo 250 with Duo Dock also sold for 130 Euros (£90), excluding postage, recently!
Silly!!
I doubt he'll get that for the power supply.
Some eBay sellers have their heads in the clouds. I don't understand how some of them break even - charging almost retail price for things when people could just go out and buy them immediately for only a little bit extra. Or sometimes the same price!
Like this plonker. Why would I pay $130 for a hat I can't even try on?: [8D]
http://tinyurl.com/ysbsgu
"Tell him he's dreamin'." :
I doubt he'll get that for the power supply.
Some eBay sellers have their heads in the clouds. I don't understand how some of them break even - charging almost retail price for things when people could just go out and buy them immediately for only a little bit extra. Or sometimes the same price!
Like this plonker. Why would I pay $130 for a hat I can't even try on?: [8D]
http://tinyurl.com/ysbsgu
"Tell him he's dreamin'." :
That's the same guy who sells Quadra 950's for almost $1000. His prices for other parts suck, too. He doesn't even provide photos of the items he is selling.
Now that I'm back at home, I gave the Duo 230 (the dead one) a try with the MiniDock, floppy drive and external monitor, and sure enough it does boot off the floppy disk and activate the external monitor, so it appears that the internal screen is dead as well as the hard drive missing (and possibly the speaker dead too, as it doesn't chime). However, I just get the grey background screen on the external monitor and the cursor appears if I roll the mouse across, so presumably it is making an extended desktop on there as I can hear the floppy booting but can't see the desktop icons/menu bar, and I can't see anything on the keyboard to switch it into mirroring (and can't see the control strip of course!). I tried starting up with the lid down, but it still insists on using the internal screen as the primary display. Anyway, this does confirm that this Duo is totally dead, given that the internal screen is not working :'( I can't see anything on the screen at all - it looks completely dead, as opposed to just a dead backlight where you can still see faintly (if these screens even work in the same way as the newer LCDs). I'm going to get the other one, the 210, out soon anyway, and get OS 7.6 set up on it