Thread

Do you guys (with multiple machines) stock extra keyboards and mice?

Do you guys (with multiple machines) stock extra keyboards and mice? Peripherals 26 posts May 19, 2015 — May 29, 2015

#1 Tue, 19 May 2015 - 23:33

I was wondering if you fellow collectors/hoarders have enough keyboards and mice for your whole collection (and maybe spares) or just use a couple depending on which machine you are playing with?

#1 Thu, 30 Oct 2014 - 14:13

A guide to Open Firmware - The Apple BIOS

Most Apple G3/G4 systems use a modified version of the Open Firmware standard. These machiens are normally referred to as "NewWorld Macs". Open Firmware acts as a type of bios for the PowerPC system, it is responsible for identifying various hardware components and uses a series of environment variables to all the user or developer to modify the boot behavior of the system. Open Firmware is pretty easy to access and navigate once you know how, this guide walks you through the basics, so you can get to know your system a little better.

Boot Process
The boot process starts with the PowerPC processor executing its reset vector as specified by the Hardware Initialization code. The boot ROM stored in NVRAM provides power on self test (POST - diagnostics), and initializes enough of the system to load Open Firmware. These POST tests are run in native PowerPC code and involve checksum testing, memory testing, detection of the manufacturing test pin and test manager support. With the new family of iMac systems, additional pre-firmware diagnostics are performed due to the addition of the UniNorth and KeyLargo ICs. When enough initialization has occurred to execute Open Firmware, the boot chime is played and Open Firmware is loaded.

OpenFirmware Init
Open Firmware will then probe the system's I/O buses to determine the device configuration and build a device tree, which describes the hardware it has located, the system will then examine the values of its enviroment variables. If the auto-boot? variable is flagged as true, the system will then read the value contained within the boot-device variable and attempt to boot from that device. If additional information is required the boot-file variable is read. If the auto-boot? variable is flagged as false, the system will halt the boot process and drop to the Open Firmware user interface.

Default Boot Device
The default boot device on Apple systems is "hd:,\\:tbxi". The system will automatically convert "hd" into the appropriate device path, as hd is simply an alias. The notation "" tells the system to start searching for "blessed" folders (directories) starting on the first HFS or HFS+ partition found on the system. The final part, "tbxi", tells the system to look for files of type tbxi. All versions of MacOS have a folder known as System Folder that is "blessed", and contains a MacOS Boot ROM file which is of type tbxi. The Boot ROM file is simply a stripped ELF executable image wrapped with a forth boot script. A "blessed" folder is simply one with a special attribute (or flag) set on it. The system will search all HFS partitions for a bblessed folder and a file of type tbxi within it, if none are located, the boot will fail. The system will always select the first one found, unless the boot-device is modified to a specific partition id.

Old vs. New
Apple's Open Firmware is part of their ROM-in-RAM design approach originally used in the first iMac systems. The approach uses a small ROM that contains sufficient code to initialize the hardware and load an operating system. The rest of the system code, that on previous Mac systems (old world) resided on a physical ROM (chip) is now loaded from disk or from network into RAM. Open Firmware is part of this "New World" boot system.

Overview of Open Firmware
Open Firmware is a boot environment developed using the Forth programming language. Open Firmware exists to provide a machine independent means of loading operating systems, from a variety of boot devices. Open Firmware probes the PCI bus for devices and possible Open Firmware device drivers for those devices. These drivers can either be integrated into the Open Firmware or provided on an external device, thus providing plug and play capabilities for new boot devices. Open Firmware is then capable of using these drivers to load an operating system from the device.

On the latest revision of Apple systems Open Firmware provides a variety of functions. One of the key functions of Open Firmware is to configure the UniNorth and Keylargo ICs, to constract a device tree, probe devices, include any device drivers and finally select a boot device. Open Firmware includes FCode channels for UltraDMA/33, Firewire (1394) and USB hardware channels. Interrupts are determined by information contained within the device tree.

Open Firmware capabilities
Apple's Open Firmware can load ELF binary images directly from a HFS standard, HFS extended or a ISO9660 file system. The ELF image can be loaded using the Open Firmware user interface command boot along with the syntax hd:5,\\image.elf. The "hd" is the alias for the hard disk, 5 is the partition id, and "\\image.elf", tells the system to look for image.elf in a blessed folder on that partition.

Open Firmware supports booting from a variety of devices, to provide some element of user-friendliness, Open Firmware supports the use of aliases for a variety of devices. For example, the primary hard disk and primary CD/DVD-ROM drives are represented by hd and cd aliases. These alises are constructed from the device-tree by Open Firmware, in reality the alias hd actually is a path within the device-tree such as /pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/ata-4@1f000/disk@0.

Navigating Open Firmware
Open Firmware is easily accessible at boot time by using a simple key combination of Command + Option (alt) + O + F. This key combination must be used during the initial boot sequence (as soon as the audible chime is heard), and held util the distinctive black on white, text based Open Firmware user interface appears. Open Firmware will display a message similar to this:

Weclome to Open Firmware
To continue booting, type "mac-boot" and press return.
To shut down, type "shut-down" and press return.

The Open Firmware interface is similar to the boot rom interface on Sun Microsystems SPARC systems, in that, it stores its environment variables through the use of the setenv command and variables can be viewed through the printenv command. Another commonality between the two systems, is that both are stored on NVRAM. While Open Firmware has several system and user definable variables, we will look at those involved in the boot process.

auto-boot? uses a boolean (true/false) value to determine whether to automatically boot or to drop to open firmware.

boot-device is a string value and is used to specify the boot device, partition and file type to load on boot.

boot-command is also a string value, and is used to supply an alias for booting the OS (eg. the default is mac-boot).

boot-file is another string value, and contains the location of a bootinfo.txt style script. This is a legacy open firmware variable that can be used to specify a chrp style script, similar to those used on the IBM RS/6000.

Apple's Open Firmware supports a variety of variables for network booting, these include variables that handle ip, subnet masks, router/gateways which can be used for network-booting the system using a boot protocol such as BOOTP.

Navigating: Examining Hardware Devices
Open Firmware can be used to provide valuable insight into the hardware configuration of the system. At boot time, Open Firmware collects information regarding each device within the system and builds a device-tree, there are a variety of commands available to examine not only the device information and current configuration, but also some of the underlying Forth source code that is used in the Open Firmware drivers for those devices. This type of hardware information is extremely useful for tuning performance, correcting errors or trying to implement new drivers for a device.

ls - displays contents of the current path in the device tree.
devalias - provides a list of short alias names for key hardware devices.
.properties - provides a list of properties for the selected device.
pwd - displays the current path within the device tree.
dev - selects a device (using either the alias or absolute/relative device tree path).
words - provides a list of forth scripts associated with the selected device.
source - executes a particular forth script.
load - loads a image from disk, cd, network or another device.
go - execites the currently loaded image.
see - displays the source code for a particular forth script.

The ls, dev, pwd and .properties commands can be used to navigate around the device-tree, this can be useful for learning which specific hardware devices are interconnected. The structure of the device tree reveals which particular hardware devices are connected to which hardware bus structures, for example the device tree indicates which devices are connected to which PCI bus and host controller, which devices are connected to the USB controller and so on. Device driver programmers can look at the underlying Forth scripts and examine the state of that Open Firmware will leave particular hardware devices in. Programmers can also re-write the forth scripts using the Open Firmware interface to test the behavior of particular hardware devices. A segment of the device tree for the pci bus is show below:

/pci@f0000000
- /uni-north-agp@b
- /ATY,RageM_Lp@10
/pci@f2000000
- /mac-io@17
  - ....
  - /ata-4@1f000
    - /disk
  - ....
- /usb@18
/pci@f4000000
- /ethernet@f

The segement of the device tree shown above, clearly shows the uni-north AGP controller and the ATI Rage Mobility are off pci1, while most of the input/output devices are driven from pci2. The second segement shows an example of the mac-io portion of the tree with an ATA device and a seperate USB portion of the tree. Finally pci3 has the ethernet device, and may contain additional devices such as a firewire bus (on the iMac DV for example).

Looking at the source
You can use the see command to look at some of the forth code that is used for a particular device. The code below is from the USB probe function in Open Firmware. It calls other routines and is pretty simple.

0 > see probe
:probe
debug-usb-flags fshowprobe and if
?cr"PROBE:" type
then
init-hardware debug-usb-flags fshowprobe and if
hc-base u
then
0 probe-hub debug-usb-flags fshowprobe and if
cr
then
;ok
0 > source probe ok
2 > _

The above code is a snapshot from Open Firmware, and is Copyright Apple Computer, it is displayed here for educational purposes only.

Accessing the device-tree in Linux
You do not need to be in open firmware to look at the device tree. You can examine it from within the /proc file system by simply cd'ing to /proc/device-tree. For example, you can cd to aliases within the device tree, then use ls to list the aliases, and cat to display the contents of an alias (eg. cat enet reveals /pci@f4000000/ethernet).

It might be a little easier to navigate the device tree under Linux, find what you are looking for then examine it in more detail in open firmware.

Disclaimer
Examining the contents of open firmware on your system can give you a wealth of information about your system, however modification of variables or forth code within open firmware itself can lead to your system being unusable if done incorrectly. We do not provide any gaurentee or warrenty with this document, and cannot be held liable for any damage to your system you may cause as a result of using information contained within this document. We strongly recommend that you only use this document to examine the contents of your system, and avoid modifications unless you know what you are doing.

#2 Tue, 19 May 2015 - 23:42

Right now I only have one ADB set and one spare USB set. I do want to get another ADB set though.

#2 Thu, 2 Dec 2010 - 15:45

Quote

start a telnet server so that you can interact with the firmware and boot process from a remote machine via an ethernet connection.

Now that is interesting... I never knew OF had telnet server built in, so you can run putty on a PC or another Mac and put OF command in remotely, I will try that this week

What is the default Telnet IP ? and Admin password ?

Quote

Before booting the operating system, the Open Firmware generates a device tree by probing components on the main board and expansion devices.

We can change values, but we ne need to find out if we can delete parts of the tree (rather than remove hardware) from unsupported G4s for Modified ROM 10.2.1 Testing

#3 Sat, 4 Dec 2010 - 16:41

wow telnet server? freaky;)

#3 Tue, 19 May 2015 - 23:55

I have one ADB keyboard and one ADB mouse, that came with a Mac SE.

ADB computers I have:

Mac SE (dual 1.44MB floppy drives)
Mac IIci (160MB hard drive)
PowerBook 1400cs/166 (my newest addition!) (1.3GB hard drive)

#4 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 00:26

I don't have any ADB keyboards or mice (should really get around to that) but I do have the matching keyboards and mice for my 2 iMac G3s and my Power Mac G4

#5 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 00:28

Well consider this: the prices of keyboards/mice are starting to go up quite a bit. So anyone without them, or without spares, should consider getting one.

#6 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 01:11

or invest in one of these PS/2 to Mac Adaptors. https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/20171-ps2-keyboard-on-mac-plus/

#7 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 01:14

I have bags of keyboards and mice. I have been lucky enough to seem to get 2 of each with every Mac I ever received.

Functionality may be in question but I am am set until I die I'm guessing.

#8 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 01:19

I try to have a keyboard, mouse and monitor for each computer I have. Sometimes it's hard to figure out what keyboard is accurate for the model with Apple products. I also try to get a period terminal for earlier computers. I really like complete systems.

#9 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 02:19

I always try for a full set, I may be 1 keyboard short. Need more bags through

#10 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 03:36

I have 1 mouse and 1 keyboard for most of my machines. The only thing is that I do not have KBs & Mice for duplicate machines. Like my LC pile - 4 LCs but 1 KB & Mouse. The SE\30 has its own KB & mouse, and the the IIcx/ci/ has their KB & Mouse but the duplicate IIci's and 1 space IIcx don't.

#11 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 03:53

I wish I was that fortunate. I have random keybs/mice, couple keyboards are good. rest are super yellowed/cracked/dead, and a couple good mice. the rest are missing balls, or dont ride well.

I did manage to pick up a non-yellowed AEKII for 10 bucks at the hamfest.

#12 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 04:25

Well I was out grilling and digging (in the garage) for my ADB drawing tablet and found a couple of boxes of ADB keyboards and mice I forgot about. I have a few cleaned and in the basement lab but mostly I use ADB KVMs.

Just wondering if people are just using a couple machines at a time so they slack on keeping enough keyboards and mice.

I should clean up the rest of them sooner or later.

#13 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 04:49

I have one set I use to test machines, work on em, etc.

I have a bunch of 128k/512k but these are specific to each machine (date codes). As for ADB keyboards, those I have very few of relative to machines. ADB mice on the other hand, a whole box full.

#14 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 05:39

I have enough for setting up 10-15 machines but would need at least double that to have a set for each.

#15 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 05:56

Box of about ten keyboard and mice under the house - various kinds of pre-ADB and ADB. Tend to keep Extended Keyboard IIs here, not so much the first Extended model.

#16 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 07:08

I have an entire cupboard full of them... Not sure I have enough for every single one of the 50ish Mac's I own, but certainly enough for every one that I would be using concurrently and then plenty left over.

#17 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 09:38

Eventually I want to have all the iMac G3s, with a matching keyboard and mouse. So far I have a complete bondi set (with two keyboards, though one's unusable junk) and my indigo iMac, but I can't remember if I still have a matching keyboard and know I don't have a matching mouse. If prices are going up, though, I may go into cat mode and start hunting for mice and keyboards even before I have the iMac to match.

Since the hockey puck mice are way too small for my hands I want to bundle them up like a flower bouquet and hang them from the ceiling or something in my computer room.

#18 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 09:47

I have few of them, but not as much as my collection of machines, mostly because i am runing out of space and there are few differences.

I have square and round mice, and a set of keyboards.

#19 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 11:06

Have two Al usb keyboards, a iMacG3 plastic one , and a MacClassic ADB.

Mice…. Many

Usual teardrop ADB shape : 2 beiges, 2 black, 1 grey. 1 squared shape ADB for the Classic.

1 wired Mighty mouse, 1 Bluetooth Mighty Mouse, 1 MacPro black/transparent, 2 usb iMacG3 round .

1 ADB non-Apple two-buttons mouse, can't remember the brand. And 1 ADB two-buttons NeXT , the strange shape one, work great on old Mac but I wish the squarish shape one was ADB...

And maybe 6 or 5 usb mice of various brands.

I collect Apple laptops, so don't know if I'm allowed to speak here

but seldom use trackpads...

#20 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 12:51

All my machines have their own keyboard and mouse. I've also got my "tech bench" combo (keyboard with a trackball where the numpad would be), a few NIB keyboards/mice, and a whole bunch of extra ADB keyboards/mice that I'm still not quite sure how I ended up with. I think I probably have at least one Plus style keyboard that wasn't working quite right as well.

#21 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 13:22

I have a couple of keyboard / mouse pairs for my hole collection, Just don't have the room to keep a pair for each machine

And I think the AEK II will be used with my mac pro oce i get around to buying / making a ADB -> USB adapter (so i'll be down to one pair)

#22 Wed, 20 May 2015 - 14:03

I actually have a few more ADB keyboards than systems but only two mice. The Plus is still keyboardless.

I've only held onto the decent ADBs though, such as the AEK\AEK IIs and the 3rd party Alps ones. If I'm going to go through the effort of cleaning and storing might as well make it a good one.

#23 Thu, 21 May 2015 - 08:06

Got all sorts - 128/512, Plus, Extended, TAM, Mac TV, black Extended, Adjustable, and so on.

#24 Thu, 21 May 2015 - 16:09

I've always made a point of collecting every period peripheral imaginable for all my Macs, not one for each Mac. The Apple Display Unit runs off a wireless PS-2 KBD/Mouse on an Omni-View Mac Adapter/PS-2 KVM I bought new for the Q630/386 desk I built for the Rugger's bedroom back in the day. Other than the nicely sized "chicklety" IIgs KBD in the HackStation and an AppleDesign for its long. straight cord for the KBD drawer of the IIfx desk, everything else is in a box somewhere.

I hated the functionless ADB2 that came with the SE so much I bought the VT-100 form factor DATADESK MAC-101 almost immediately. By about 2002, I'd worn out two of them (the second one was used) and now I've got a third one in its box ready to set up for a period period correct peripherals set. One of my best eBay snags evah! [

] ]'>

Juliet Elysa said:
Since the hockey puck mice are way too small for my hands I want to bundle them up like a flower bouquet and hang them from the ceiling or something in my computer room.

I've always wanted to snag one of each fruity puck in order to arrange them in a shadow box to frame a 3-D mini-poster that says: Yuck! [

] ]'>

#25 Fri, 22 May 2015 - 18:31

Have enough for everything plus a few but since I usually only set up one at a time, I normally only use the one set

#26 Fri, 29 May 2015 - 22:15

Most of my Macs have their own ADB keyboard and mouse (except the PowerBooks), which are stored away in a cupboard. I bought a BlackBox 4-port ADB/DA-15 KVM switch precisely to avoid having multiple keyboards and mice. I have just an AEK II and a Kensington Turbo Mouse and they are nice.