(a thought) A lesson the US has never learned but most other countries have:

It's called Vietnam. I would call that Pretty humiliating, Another thing would probably somalia.

True dat!

I guess you missed the whole Vietnam thing. And Tehran. And Riyad, and Beirut. Ad infinitum.

WTF are you talking about?

Close but no cigar. Nam was certainly embarrassing, but not humiliating. You got away with a bruised forehead and a genereation of disgruntled veterans. I am talking _humiliation_!

Matter of degrees, I suppose. Vietnam is a minor setback compared to the humiliation visited upon Germany by their own excesses. Or the humilitations of past great Empires falling for England, Spain, Portugal, France. Or the humiliation of a bankrupt "evil empire" in the USSR.

I suppose Americans could learn from the humiliation of others, but that lesson does seem to be widely ignored.

I fear for my country. I fear for the what the arrogance of nationalism might do to it.

I (an American) felt pretty humiliated when Clinton was doing nasty things in office...literally, in his office.

United Kingdom was an empire that crumbled, once a proud world power now little remains but a memory.

Germany almost lain to waste in two world wars.

France occupied and raped in WWII, was a center of destruction in the Revolution and spawned a megalomainiac that ruined that countries chance of becoming a major power (Napoleon).

Chech Republic was torn asunder to appeace the Third Reich.

Poland was stapled by the balls by the same Third Reich and used for the most infamous mass murders in history (thank you Hollywood)

Japan was nuked twice. Both times in a civilan center (aka city).

Russia was the playground of Bolscheviks for 80 years, and caused prettty much the wipeout of intellect and pride.

Norway was ruled as a second thought by Sweden and Denmark for hundreds of years, betrayed by them in WWII causing the Germans to burn half of the country down in the final years of WWII.

Need I go on. Do you understand what I mean by humiliation?

And, clearly, this is from a guy who *knows* about humiliation.

However, you listed many countries that provided the immigrants who became citizens of the United States, so the memory of those humiliations is in fact ingrained in the culture.

Melting pot, you know.

I know that my German teacher in high school was humiliated that anyone would even associate her, as a survivor of the holocaust, as a Nazi simply by her German accent. She applied the lessons she learned there to the politics she practiced in the new country.

Er. What is your point? (was that just kneejerking or do you have some information to add?)

I just wanted to add the Balkans to your list. 500 years of Turkish oppression changed that part of the world in the most fundamental psychological way imaginable.

But even in our own backyard:

Consider the attitude most Americans show towards the humiliation of Native Americans when they take even the most minimal steps to reclaim their dignity. Or the "get over it" expression that greets the first generation of African-Americans since segregation when they struggle to find their place in America.

As a very young nation we have a lot to learn. I would rather see us learn it by studying history than by repeating it.

Good point. The US is made from millions of immigrants from many countries. I never said the US was a _hopeless_ case

But wouldn't you say that there is a certain pride that follows the history of the US. The history of the immigrants is a more often than not a history of unfair prosecution that led to their emigration from their original country to the new world. The world of hope, of a new beginning, a world where everybody would be their own king.

While many many US individuals know humiliation personally or through history, the collective is still very very proud. The survivors of injustice, the decendants of freedomfighters that emerged victorious and made a superpower with their own hands. While that gives the collective every reason to be proud, some humiliation is very good too.

I find that individual Americans are very often nice intelligent people, with much compassion.. human in short. But they (as a nation) missed out on some very important lesson that the rest of the world went through. Not their fault or anything, just missed it. So in a sense the American collective is a bit 19th century-ish at its heart. Like my grandfather

What about the American South? (Here's an opportunity to brush up on your Faulkner and Welty.) Certainly, many Confederates believed their defeat to be humiliating and degrading; the Lost Cause has been the cornerstone of southern culture -- political and otherwise -- for more than a century.

"The South's losses in human wealth were pathetic. It was forced to skip almost a generation of young men, dead of disease, killed in battle, or wounded into economic incompetency...The wounded came back generally with the loss of an arm or leg. In some communities, at least a third of the veterans lacked a limb. Mississippi spent, in 1866, a fifth of her revenues on artificial arms and legs. ..."
--Coulter E. Merton in The South During Reconstruction

How's this for humilation:

A President of the USA getting caught with an intern under the desk with a stained dressed and a cigar?

If that isn't humilating....

By the way... that was your precious Clinton who got caught with his pants down.

I see someone beat me to this post, but I had to say it.

Yes, the Civil War. That left a scar. Don't know much about it and I don't think it would be right for me to judge it either way. So I'd rather ask Americans the question: did the Civil War affect Americans in such a way that they still remember the lesson it brought? What was that lesson?

I'll brush up on my Civil War knowledge asap (after exams).

Comeon! That wasn't humiliating. That actually earned you guys _respect_ in the world. One mans sexual endevours is *not* what I am talking about here. Jeez.

Actually the South is a very very good point. I think that is precisely the kind of thing Voodoo is talking about. I know southerners with close ties to the war generation certainly understand humiliation.

Well, it's subjective, but compared to having a foreign army take over your entire country in a matter of a few weeks, I sort of prefer the whole president/blowjob thing.

Not that we have to choose, of course. ...

If this is how a country's leader earns respect in the world, then I don't want my president to ever have respect.

How bizarre! What president Bush is doing is seen as a horrific, imperialistic, and Hitler-esque and what Clinton does is viewed as respectful.

you liberals really think that wasn't a big deal... boy... you need heads examined... that was a huge "blow" to the legitimacy of the presidency... and to top it off, he went on national television, and LIED about it. Thank god we have a moral human being as our president now, proving to the world that the US Presidency is legit.

by the way... who was the only president in history to be impeached? that's right it was Clinton.

Bizzarre? Perhaps. True? You bet!

It was a pretty close call for Nixon, young grasshopper. Good thing he was pardoned.

Hmmm if I had to choose I would go with the sex monger as president rather than cokehead. If I got to choose


LOL oh no he lied about getting a blowjob from his intern, truly the end of the world

Agreed... doens't make sense to me either... but you know those liberals.. clinton was great president, so they say...

if you watch FoxNews you'll actually hear the polls that say that a majority of people believe in the war and support President Bush.

How can those liberals out there defend a ruthless #$%@#$%@#$% like Hussein, when liberated Iraqis are praising Bush for their liberation??? Get with it you liberal morons!!!

I can't figure out if you are being sarcastic or actually insinuating that Foxnews is not a right wing propaganda machine...

I'm sure that you didn't intend that pun, but anyway...

I'm curious - in what way did Clinton's actions (gawd, why are we still talking about this.....???) harm (sorry, I can't use the word blow) the Presidency? Please explain what tangible harm occurred?

Hardly, but what, then, is so humiliating about having sex? It's actually quite nice when performed by consenting adults. I myself am a big fan.

Andrew Johnson was impeached. 1868. Pick up a history book some time.

And voodoo, I think the most lingering legacy of the Civil War for the average American today is a brisk trade in "You lost. Get over it" and "Happiness is a northbound Yankee" bumper stickers. And the knowledge that the federal government is in charge.

--Josh

Wow. The Yankees are _still_ rubbing it in. Ouch.

Granted, Clinton was a terrible president.

However, having consensual sex with someone (even oral sex or, god forbid, some other "perverse" variant) is not wrong, morally or otherwise.

What precisely is the arguement, then?

Who believes Clinton was a good president, besides deluded centrists and the business elite?

append "in the 20th century" to my previous comment. pardon my mishap. and don't try to bring up Nixon.... that's getting old.

but it is fair to note that the two presidents that have been impeached were both (D)'s.

I think the South are actually the ones that still carry the torch of the war more than the North. Hence the "You lost, get over it" attitude. No one in the North really understands the whole "Dixie pride" thing.

It's the South who do the Civil War reenactments and have the Stars and Bars plastered all over everything and have signs on their pickups proclaiming that "The South will rise again." I think they hang onto some false notion of the South being this high class land of freedom, forgetting the part where that land was toiled over and supported by slaves. I could go on, but if you really want to understand, go visit Georgia or Alabama and talk to people. You'll learn a lot.

--Josh

It's also fair to note that Johnson was tried for the most specious of reasons, mostly centering on his ignoring a law later ruled to be unconstitutional. It was really just a pissing match because Johnson didn't want to grind his heel on the South as much as the Republican-controlled Congress did.



Well, I don't care if he had consensual sex. Nothing immoral about it. However, being a jerk by cheating on his wife, and lying to the American public and legal system because he wasn't enough of a man to just own up to his actions was immoral. Not something to impeach him over, but still pretty low.

--Josh

I'm kinda surprised that you don't see what's wrong with this picture. When a man makes a commitment to another person (i.e.: his wife) it is taken to mean that both parties will be committed to one another in all aspects of marriage, including sexually.</basic assumption> Respect? Yeah. That seems like a gimme...but it's surprising what is passed off oh-so-non-chalantly nowadays. Shocking.

Plus, while it's bad enough that this had to occur, that it occurred in the oval office makes it despicable.

Edit: Oh yeah, and then he lied to all of us about it! Now, if you're making a case that it isn't wrong at all...why did he even have to lie? He should have come out and been all like "Duh, yeah, I ***** her with a cigar both ********* and ******. And THEN I ****** on her."

Oh, there is no doubt. He was a scumbag. Why would anyone expect differently? He was the President, after all.

Like I said, he was a scumbag. I don't know why anyone holds the president to a higher standard, though (not that you personally do). If anything, we should hold the president to a lower standard, if history is any judge.

What would be shocking is if the president didn't bend an intern over his oval office desk. Honestly, I'm amazed they didn't call a press conference and proceed to have sex on the podium. Pretty sad state of affairs, no?

What a wonderful world we live in here in America. Nothing worse has happened to us than one of our presidents cheated on his wife and got caught. Oh the humanity!!!


There are plenty of things that would challenge the notion that the US has yet to learn humility, but citing a sex scandal as proof of our suffering just goes to show how completely out of touch with real suffering some Americans are.

In fact, it just might prove Voodoo's point more than anything anyone could have said.

No doubt! If anything people aren't having ENOUGH sex!

Amen.

Oh my god. That is the smartest thing I've heard all day. Can I put you on my double-awesome un-ignore list?

Perhaps it is symptomatic of the political laziness in this country that we can advocate war and death "over there," but refuse to tolerate it here (or even the images of it in the news). More "Not my problem"-ism.

Where were the defenders of Iraqi freedom during the Indonesian occupation of East Timor, or cocescu's reign of terror, or the assualts on NIcaragua, or the Shi'ite uprisings after the 1st gulf war, or the continued massacre of Kurds in Turkey, or the Taliban regime in Afghanisatan prior to 9-11, to name a few relatively modern examples of either US enacted or US supported atrocities. Or, hell, where was all the talk of Iraqi freedom prior to september of 2002, when bush announced his plans? All of a sudden, America slaps its forehead and says "oh yeah, we love freedom! Let's get that douche outta there!" I defy any single person on this board who is in favor of the war in Iraq to point to any attempt to bring attention to the plight of the Iraqis prior to septmeber. Of course, we're all commited to freedom! But it's not a one-shot thing. You have to really be commited to it, every day of your life, not just when your president says you should.

If there's one thing history has shown us, it's this:

Every empire falls eventually.

The US will be superceded as the world's dominant power at some point. No empire can exist forever without exhausting resources, or becoming so large that its own structure causes it to falter. I'd propose that while geographically and geopolitically the US does not fit the empire model, the propagation of american culture is a pretty effective way of co-opting other nations. Case in point - I would contest that the government of Eastern Europe was not ended by diplomacy and bombs - it was ended by the fact that its citizens no longer wanted to wear Bulgarian shoes, and had learned a thing or two about the decadent West from watching Dallas. Shown no better alternative, they'd still be in their former position today. Shown a better option however...

It's just fin de siecle. You can call it a long-overdue humiliation, or karma, but really, it's just the way of the world.

Just got back:

1. Who are you talking to with this "you liberals" stuff?

2, Two presidents in American history have been impeached: Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton. Your question reveals how little you know. ... Are you really this stupid?

3. If you want to quiz me about American history, crack a book sometime this decade. Then maybe you'll be ready (but I doubt it).

OK, but back to my original point, it doesn't really compare with having your government overthrown.

Yeah, no sh�t. It continues to baffle me how this mass genocide that was supported by dozens of American presidents (now they don't have to support the genocide anymore cause we've wiped them all out) is forever swept under the rug, dismissed as part of the past. I can't think of anything much more humiliating than being more or less wiped off the face of the earth with the survivors herded onto a bunch of little chunks of land we don't want and told to run casinos for the rest of their lives.

/rant

Welcome to the bizarro world of people with "progressive" morals.

Clinton was a sexual predator. That is what he was being investigated for. He had problems with sex. Monica was some of the proof. Clinton lied under oath making her and many other Americans out to be liars to save his own ass. He did this, on the clock, talking to foreign diplomats while recieving oral sex. Real respectful man indeed.

Clinton had a sexual harrasement problem. And probably still has one.

I hate to get into this debate...

All presidents who have been impeached or under threat of impeachment did minor misdeeds.

Clinton was impeached for lying under oath (Ken Starr never claimed perjury, Congress did) in an immaterial (read: irrelevant) portion of a civil lawsuit that was later thrown out of court.

Nixon was accused of knowing about a breaking and entering.

Johnson wasn't even charged with anything until after he was impeached.

Interestingly the people we considered the best Presidents, FDR and Lincoln, did some really nasty things that should have gotten them impeached.

A lesson most other countries have learned but the US has never learned:

HUMILITY.

Please.

I think we all learned some of that 9/11

Actually I would call the Democrats Defeat this past election cycle Pretty Humiliating for them. They thought they had a lock on the American Public.