(a thought) A lesson the US has never learned but most other countries have:

It's called Vietnam. I would call that Pretty humiliating, Another thing would probably somalia.

True dat!

I guess you missed the whole Vietnam thing. And Tehran. And Riyad, and Beirut. Ad infinitum.

WTF are you talking about?

Close but no cigar. Nam was certainly embarrassing, but not humiliating. You got away with a bruised forehead and a genereation of disgruntled veterans. I am talking _humiliation_!

Matter of degrees, I suppose. Vietnam is a minor setback compared to the humiliation visited upon Germany by their own excesses. Or the humilitations of past great Empires falling for England, Spain, Portugal, France. Or the humiliation of a bankrupt "evil empire" in the USSR.

I suppose Americans could learn from the humiliation of others, but that lesson does seem to be widely ignored.

I fear for my country. I fear for the what the arrogance of nationalism might do to it.

I (an American) felt pretty humiliated when Clinton was doing nasty things in office...literally, in his office.

United Kingdom was an empire that crumbled, once a proud world power now little remains but a memory.

Germany almost lain to waste in two world wars.

France occupied and raped in WWII, was a center of destruction in the Revolution and spawned a megalomainiac that ruined that countries chance of becoming a major power (Napoleon).

Chech Republic was torn asunder to appeace the Third Reich.

Poland was stapled by the balls by the same Third Reich and used for the most infamous mass murders in history (thank you Hollywood)

Japan was nuked twice. Both times in a civilan center (aka city).

Russia was the playground of Bolscheviks for 80 years, and caused prettty much the wipeout of intellect and pride.

Norway was ruled as a second thought by Sweden and Denmark for hundreds of years, betrayed by them in WWII causing the Germans to burn half of the country down in the final years of WWII.

Need I go on. Do you understand what I mean by humiliation?

And, clearly, this is from a guy who *knows* about humiliation.

However, you listed many countries that provided the immigrants who became citizens of the United States, so the memory of those humiliations is in fact ingrained in the culture.

Melting pot, you know.

I know that my German teacher in high school was humiliated that anyone would even associate her, as a survivor of the holocaust, as a Nazi simply by her German accent. She applied the lessons she learned there to the politics she practiced in the new country.

Er. What is your point? (was that just kneejerking or do you have some information to add?)

I just wanted to add the Balkans to your list. 500 years of Turkish oppression changed that part of the world in the most fundamental psychological way imaginable.

But even in our own backyard:

Consider the attitude most Americans show towards the humiliation of Native Americans when they take even the most minimal steps to reclaim their dignity. Or the "get over it" expression that greets the first generation of African-Americans since segregation when they struggle to find their place in America.

As a very young nation we have a lot to learn. I would rather see us learn it by studying history than by repeating it.

Good point. The US is made from millions of immigrants from many countries. I never said the US was a _hopeless_ case

But wouldn't you say that there is a certain pride that follows the history of the US. The history of the immigrants is a more often than not a history of unfair prosecution that led to their emigration from their original country to the new world. The world of hope, of a new beginning, a world where everybody would be their own king.

While many many US individuals know humiliation personally or through history, the collective is still very very proud. The survivors of injustice, the decendants of freedomfighters that emerged victorious and made a superpower with their own hands. While that gives the collective every reason to be proud, some humiliation is very good too.

I find that individual Americans are very often nice intelligent people, with much compassion.. human in short. But they (as a nation) missed out on some very important lesson that the rest of the world went through. Not their fault or anything, just missed it. So in a sense the American collective is a bit 19th century-ish at its heart. Like my grandfather

What about the American South? (Here's an opportunity to brush up on your Faulkner and Welty.) Certainly, many Confederates believed their defeat to be humiliating and degrading; the Lost Cause has been the cornerstone of southern culture -- political and otherwise -- for more than a century.

"The South's losses in human wealth were pathetic. It was forced to skip almost a generation of young men, dead of disease, killed in battle, or wounded into economic incompetency...The wounded came back generally with the loss of an arm or leg. In some communities, at least a third of the veterans lacked a limb. Mississippi spent, in 1866, a fifth of her revenues on artificial arms and legs. ..."
--Coulter E. Merton in The South During Reconstruction

How's this for humilation:

A President of the USA getting caught with an intern under the desk with a stained dressed and a cigar?

If that isn't humilating....

By the way... that was your precious Clinton who got caught with his pants down.

I see someone beat me to this post, but I had to say it.

Yes, the Civil War. That left a scar. Don't know much about it and I don't think it would be right for me to judge it either way. So I'd rather ask Americans the question: did the Civil War affect Americans in such a way that they still remember the lesson it brought? What was that lesson?

I'll brush up on my Civil War knowledge asap (after exams).

Comeon! That wasn't humiliating. That actually earned you guys _respect_ in the world. One mans sexual endevours is *not* what I am talking about here. Jeez.

Actually the South is a very very good point. I think that is precisely the kind of thing Voodoo is talking about. I know southerners with close ties to the war generation certainly understand humiliation.

Well, it's subjective, but compared to having a foreign army take over your entire country in a matter of a few weeks, I sort of prefer the whole president/blowjob thing.

Not that we have to choose, of course. ...

If this is how a country's leader earns respect in the world, then I don't want my president to ever have respect.

How bizarre! What president Bush is doing is seen as a horrific, imperialistic, and Hitler-esque and what Clinton does is viewed as respectful.

you liberals really think that wasn't a big deal... boy... you need heads examined... that was a huge "blow" to the legitimacy of the presidency... and to top it off, he went on national television, and LIED about it. Thank god we have a moral human being as our president now, proving to the world that the US Presidency is legit.

by the way... who was the only president in history to be impeached? that's right it was Clinton.

Bizzarre? Perhaps. True? You bet!

It was a pretty close call for Nixon, young grasshopper. Good thing he was pardoned.

Hmmm if I had to choose I would go with the sex monger as president rather than cokehead. If I got to choose


LOL oh no he lied about getting a blowjob from his intern, truly the end of the world

Agreed... doens't make sense to me either... but you know those liberals.. clinton was great president, so they say...

if you watch FoxNews you'll actually hear the polls that say that a majority of people believe in the war and support President Bush.

How can those liberals out there defend a ruthless #$%@#$%@#$% like Hussein, when liberated Iraqis are praising Bush for their liberation??? Get with it you liberal morons!!!

I can't figure out if you are being sarcastic or actually insinuating that Foxnews is not a right wing propaganda machine...

I'm sure that you didn't intend that pun, but anyway...

I'm curious - in what way did Clinton's actions (gawd, why are we still talking about this.....???) harm (sorry, I can't use the word blow) the Presidency? Please explain what tangible harm occurred?

Hardly, but what, then, is so humiliating about having sex? It's actually quite nice when performed by consenting adults. I myself am a big fan.

Andrew Johnson was impeached. 1868. Pick up a history book some time.

And voodoo, I think the most lingering legacy of the Civil War for the average American today is a brisk trade in "You lost. Get over it" and "Happiness is a northbound Yankee" bumper stickers. And the knowledge that the federal government is in charge.

--Josh

Wow. The Yankees are _still_ rubbing it in. Ouch.