Question for other Christians about death

Just a small bit of advise for you:

Dont beleive everything 'Billy Graham' says.

Spiritual maturity is not bound to any particualr religion (and even less to 'organized religion').

Good luck.

Our consciousness comes through our brain. For example those who have mental problems have an actual problem with their brain not their soul.

Very true. Makes me wonder when some people who have 'spiritual experiences' suddenly turn to a particular dogma, religion, or a belief system. Look at someone who is born in, say, Tennessee, they might not be particularly religious, their environment is predominately Christian based, and then one day they have an experience. More times than not, they will then use that experience and attach it to a set of Christian beliefs, not Judaic, Islamic, Ahmadiya, or even some far flung obscure religion in a remote part of the world. Then we contrast that with someone living in an Islamic place, or Hindu, or even Pagan, and they would probably turn to those religions if they had some divine kind of experience.

there are those that do have such experiences, but don't then base it on what their environment, or culture dictates, but that isn't really the norm. Makes you wonder how genuine those moments of so-called enlightenment really are, and if so, then we have one almighty, all-embracing deity working above us, which is cool, and kicks the teeth out of the notion that God wants us to follow a certain code, or religion.

Oh, and Billy Graham is a twisted person, and his entourage. He wanted to set up something in my country by using the Bank of Scotland as a means to it. Most of us here protested, and made the bank to cut off ties with him, or at least his venture. His intentions, background, and actions were wholly unwelcome to us in Scotland. Even while he was wanting to expand his nonsense to here, he was calling most of us Pagans, and other kind words to that effect. Good riddance.

The supposition that something like a "spirit" actually exists seems very ignorant and arrogant to me.

I do not doubt it at all, insofar as I do not understand it, but right now, all that I am is the result of electrochemical reactions and whatnot, and is a direct result of the mechanics of my brain.

Until proven otherwise.

1. why does it seem "very ignorant"?
2. why does it seem arrogant?

-r.

"and whatnot" ? you call that an explanation of intelligence, memory, conscience and emotions ?

electrochemical reactions and 'mechanics' of the brain can explain memory. But how does 'electrochemical reactos' explain a conscience(decision making), emotions(such as happiness, joy, sadness, etc) they cant just be chemical reactions.

And last but not least. if what you claim is just electochemical reactions and mechanics, how on earth do u explain creativity ? those would perhaps be "new combinations of electrochemical reaction", right ? so where do those 'ides' for new combinations come from ?

I am skeptical of a supernatural being, and a bit skeptical about spirits but i cant overlook em completely. after all .... if i was just a heap of matter, how on earth do i know im here ?

(i like this discussion... i encourage ppl to make contributions to it)

1. Because we know nothing that would suggest any such thing as a "spirit" or "soul" exists. There is no evidence for any such thing. Nothing we know, or have ever known, gives us any reason to believe in such a thing. Nothing alludes to its existence at all.

2. Because people have the gall to refer to it as if it's most definately real, despite the aforementioned weaknesses in such a belief. That is arrogant.

1. what kind of knowledge are you referring to when you say "nothing we know, or have ever known, gives us any reason to believe in such a thing"? knowledge is not rationalism.

2. this point is predicated on your first point.

-r.

1. Now I think you're just trying to cause trouble with silly semantic arguments. You know very well what kind of knowledge - any kind. Don't try and mutate my statement into something it was never intended to be.

2. You asked two questions. I gave two answers. Do not blame me for the redundancy.

1. you seem to accept rational knowledge as being the only kind of knowledge. when you used the first-person plural (which is arrogant) to say that we only know this and that you are discarding huge chunks of human experience (all religion, for example) by pretending that rationalism is some kind of litmus test for all knowledge. unsurprisingly, you're left with rationalism. brilliant.

2. here you are basically saying that it's arrogant to be ignorant since this is a judgment of people believing in your first point. this is stupid.

-r.

I'm pretty sure American Pie movies send you to hell.

Memory is not equal to consciousness, so from there the question in invalid. Memory has nothing to do with being a Christian. As, I think it out... If a person got into an accident and lost their memory, they would still be a Christian, just have to go through the maturity process again.

Cipher: Don't forget that physicists discovered that we really only know about 4% of our universe. We are only now starting to discover, let alone understand, dark matter and dark energy.

Be careful to discard something just because we haven't been able to study it yet. That doesn't mean scepticism is stupid, but out-right rejection is not scepticism.

Reductionism has been shown to be dangerous before. The old standby example is what people did with Newtonian physics. Determinism was later debunked when a new understanding came along. Just think what we'll know when we finally harness enough energy to test String Theory....

1. Rational knowledge, as opposed to...? I don't see you coming up with anything. I'd love to discard all that is religion. Religion is, indeed, the scourge of our species, in many respects. But that's not the point. Rational knowledge, as opposed to...?

I'm a rational person. So sue me if I don't believe in a big old man in the sky and call that "knowledge", for some perverted reason. Is that what you're getting at? I doubt it, and I hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

2. Yes. It is indeed arrogant to be ignorant, in its own way. How is it stupid?

As I said before:

"I do not doubt it at all, insofar as I do not understand it".

rjenkinson can be thanked for sidetracking the topic beyond that.

1. look up epistemology, if you're interested.

2. explain to me how someone could exaggerate the importance of something which has no importance and i won't think it's stupid. they can be arrogant with respect to their belief or ignorant or the truth, but not both towards one.

3. you made an epistemological argument about the spirit/soul, i disagreed with you about it, and you now think i'm "sidetracking" the issue? if you don't want to argue about epistemology, don't make epistemological arguments.

-r.

Since when was I setting out to "explain intelligence, memory, conscience and emotions"?

Either way, don't give me that argument, when I can throw back to you: "explain how the soul works". Come on.



If it can explain memory, why can't it explain decision making and emotions? Of course they can be electrical impulses and chemical reactions.

You're willing to accept that those factors can explain memory - so go and apply the science behind that to emotion, and you just gave yourself your answer.

...unless, of course, you don't at all know how they could explain memory, as opposed to consciousness...



You're not serious, are you? Really?



****, as I said, I did not overlook it completely at all!

Read my first post.

Your first post was reductionist, and rjenkins is right, at least in the approach.

1. I know what epistemology is.

2. You lost me with the first part of that statement. Clarify? It's 4am, and I've been drinking, so perhaps I should rest.

Regarding the second part, however, in my opinion (and only my opinion), ignorance is arrogance in this case; ignorance of a topic, and discussion thereof (for example, belief in a soul, and passing on said beliefs), suggests that the discusser is quite confident of the accuracy of their own beliefs - whether with reason or not. This is arrogant. Yes, I know, now you respond with "so that means you're arrogant with respect to your own beliefs" - yes, I am.

3. You did sidetrack the issue beyond the topic of the original post. I never said I didn't want to argue about epistemology. I was responding to boots, who missed my first statement, and (I'm guessing) assumed other than the point it made due to my later posts, which were the result of the aforementioned tangenital discussion.

It was reductionist to a point where I gladly admitted ignorance of the topic. There is no point in my discussion of something of which I know nothing, hence my conclusion.

I'm working with what I have, without disregarding completely what I do not.

The approach is irrelevant. Go ahead and discuss the merits of a "spirit" or "soul" beyond the understanding of anybody on this earth - I guarantee you'll get nowhere.

I am not on Cipher's side of this debate, but please explain how scientists can understand 4% of an infinite object?

To quantify how much is known about anything infinite is ridiculous.

One could argue that the universe is not infinite, for one thing.

Either way, you're right. Giving the level of our knowledge of something uknown a solid figure is very silly. It makes one wonder what figure they'd have given before the topic of dark matter and company came along... if you get my point.

Just stating the obvious, I know.

I guess you've never read about out of body experiences. Or people on the OR table seeing themselves being operated on? Can you explain that with facts?

And yes Cipher there have been such studies. No one can explain what exactly happens here. We have some secular ideas, but we are still perplexed.

So no, it's not odd or irrational to think we have a "spirit"

And yes, there are many things that allude to it being so.

Which gives reason to believe in the idea, but it doesn't really make the idea of a "soul energy" true.

And you do not think our own mind is capable of producing such scenes?

We dream, do we not? In our dreams, we venture where we never have before... do we not? We see things we've never seen... correct?

But as soon as injury comes into it... you call it divine? Or, at least, beyond the realm of our brain?

It's all in the mind. Every little bit of it. You can thank our brain for all of it.

Of course not. Cipher made a statement as to there was no reason to believe this. I never posted it was true because of this, but to rule out us having spirits because there is no reason to believe it, is 100% false.

I knew you weren't implying anything, just reiterating.

Er scenes that actually are happening? Things that actually took place while the patient was under?

That would mean our conscience would have hidden eyes we don't know about.


Again, you don't know what I am referring to then Ciph. And you haven't did any studies about it obviously.

These aren't dreams. These are people actually seeing what went on in the OR room. They repeated back to the surgeon. They saw nurses walk in and out that DID walk in and out. They saw things the doctor did that indeed, the doctor did do.

That isn't our mind making up things in a dream. Sorry.

My mother was run over by a car when she was much younger, she said she could see her body down on the pavement and a crowd developing around her.

It's a strange phenomenon; I haven't read much into it recently, though. Zimph: are you sure there haven't been studies conducted that better explain what's going on? Hooking up anyone that can induce the experiences and monitoring them?

Another one that can't read. Great.





Our mind is an incredible thing. We can barely grasp its power. Do not doubt that our eyes and our ears (etc) are our only senses.

Do not doubt our inert abilities to recreate a scene with excruciating detail; nor our ability to convince ourselves of things that may not have happened.

"I saw nurses walking in and out". That's hardly a revelation.

"I saw him use this tool". Nor that.

What do you have to go on, really? Have you done any research on this? And if so, while your conclusion is obvious... have you looked at all the possible *logical* explanations?

I, too, would be interested in any research you might've done.

And she is just one of many that has.


There have been MANY studies. We don't know what causes it. I have looked them up.

We have the ability to picture ourselves in the third person; what is so uncanny about this happening while a person is unconscious?

With no effort at all I'm sure you could picture yourself lying on the road, from a camera above, a crowd enveloping you.

Don't doubt that your mind could register the fact that you've just been hit by a car, and continue on its merry way trying to figure out the sequence of events to come, given its loss of communication with its senses (and even the conscious mind).

That's strange; would you happen to have any links?

I don't doubt its ability, I'd just be interested in an explanation of just what it is, if it was a dream (random firing of synapses), then the pattern wouldn't be followed for every "out-of-body experience." I wonder if there is a small part of the brain responsible for this specific behavior when we near death (and the end of brain activity).

Every single day around the world there are scientists making discoveries and saying "Huh, we never would have predicted that." Some of these are publicized widely, such as the recent CNN article about the inexplicable change in the earth's rotation.

Science has not gone the way its adherents wished. You think it's somehow relieving to know that a cell in your left eye may be sharing an electron with a bit of rock in Saturn's ring? No...it's a freakin' pain in the a$$! Reality has the scientists all scratching their heads because the answers are not so apparent as we wish.

Enter the pseudo intellectual rationalist who enjoys propping his ego up on 10 year old textbooks and an Amazing Randi newsletter. Your average know-it-all materialist with a decent IQ and no clue will insist to his dying breath his points are more valid than anyone's faith.

If that's not faith, what is? Yes there are stupid people in the world. Yes, you may be bright. But get over it. Reality's bigger than your 3 1/2 pound melon will ever get a grip of. The conclusions of yesterday are the heresies of tomorrow. Yours are no exception.


wolfen

Ah the classic Cipher reply. When people question his "knowledge" he starts personally attacking. *Snoooree*

I was replying to this post. Particularly the first part



Nice way of trying to add a jab in there out of dishonesty Cipher.

My point still stands.

LOL! SO you have the ability to have faith to believe in this, but are totally discounting us having a soul?

Or are you saying "I really don't know ZImphire, it could be anything. We could have a soul, we just don't know"
Nonsense. If you see things that DID INDEED happening in a OR room WHILE YOU were not conscience I would call that pretty amazing.

ANd it has happened alot. And we DON'T kNOW WHY or HOW.


Yes, i have done tons of research on it. I have read many books on the matter. I have read MANY explanations. They all come to the conclusion to, we don't really know. We know IT IS happening, we just don't know WHY, or HOW.

The problem Cipher is having is, he is making this out to be a dream, something we are making up in our minds.

These are not dreams. These people are viewing things that are happening to them at the time. Things Doctors and their staff say indeed these things were happening.

Patients describes proceeders that went on that they had NO PRIOR knowledge of before. Proceeders that took place while they were under.

That isn't our mind making up dreams. Sorry.

Some people have problems with things their religion (Science) can't explain.

okay, then you explaine. what is doing the seeing? where do these images come from?

there are absolutely no studies which have proven that something like an "individual" soul exists.

why? - because it's our bodies that make us "individuals", "soul" is what unites us all! [/metaphorical explanation]

He already said he's read many studies and nothing explains it yet. Now what are you talking aobut with this whole uniting soul thing?

I never said there was studies that say the soul exists. Cipher said there was nothing for us to believe it does. I showed him where indeed there was.

I can give you a OPINION as to what I think it is, but I think you know that already.


Well that is your personal belief. One that is also based on faith.

how do you know that they weren't just making these things up, - that indeed, it was their minds producing these pictures?

just my personal belief!

Patient under says they claim to have been awake above watching everything that went on. Patient then tells doctors about what he saw. Patentient goes on to explain medical procedures and devices that was being used that patient had no clue of.

Doctor listens to patients story. What patient said went on, went on to the T.

I am not just talking about medical procedures. I am talking about what was being said as well.

So to say these happenings are just a result of our minds producing dreams is a bit far fetched. It would take just as much faith to believe in that, than it would that we actually have souls.

yeah, but how do you know this is true?

and why aren't these "experiments" reproduceable at will? i mean, if this really happened, it would be easy to prove...

They are reproducible, but not easily; it happens all the time...I'm not sure what you're asking proof of.

There are several studies about pilots having out of body experiences, I looked it up on Google and found several studies too. I also saw a show about it, where the pilots were in the machine to test g force on the human body. Their estimate was that the brain stayed a few seconds behind in translating what was happening in "real time", thus causing the eyes to see from behind.

Pretty strange stuff.

bullshyt! what do you mean "not easily"? they're not repreduceable at all (at will). otherwise you would have thousands of scientists trying to find out about the "how" at the moment.

but, just like with ufo sightings, there's never a camera team around (long enough) to document these events. very strange...