Ethical Question: Downloading TV Rips

No more illegal than taping it and giving it to someone.

Terrorist!

Just do it.

I would say: Illegal
I don't know if it's illegal to borrow a VHS from someone, but I'm pretty sure it's illegal to "borrow" a DVD from someone over the internet, just as it is to "borrow" a CD from someone over the internet, so I don't think that it's different for TV shows.

If the shows are on cable I would guess that they get money from this, so you not having cable is like you downloading mp3s without buying the CD.

Uhhh, commercials?!?

I agree with drive-thru. Someone could bring a DVD over to my house and let me watch it, but that doesn't mean it's legal to download it over the internet. Same with TV shows.

Maybe i'm not the person to ask because I believe hacking should be legal but my pov on this is that its ok as long as you don't sell or give copy's cause the person distributing them to you is wrong of course that makes you an accessory(I think).

He isn't talking about dvds obviously. Stargate Atlantis is only going on the 5th episode.

Considering you don't pay for them anyway.. not illegal unless it expressly says so.

So if I had cable, It would be legal? Who am I stealing from? The cable company...the sci-fi channel?

Just curious. I asked the question because I don't know.

I really don't know exactly what the law on this is and, as we saw in the thread about copying songs in Australia, the law is very different in different countries.

From what I know/think I know/made up: you are allowed to copy stuff you are able to view on the TV as long as it is for your personal viewing. Technically then, the people distributing it are breaking the conditions/law/copyright by distributing it, and you're breaking the law by whatever the digital equivalent is of handling stolen goods (I guess you're part of the piracy chain).

No one's making any money from this distribution, so I don't think it's a major crime.
You asked in your post if it was illegal - my opinion is yes.

Edit: It could be argued (probably by the TV company) that if you could not download the shows & wanted to watch them then you would buy cable, so they would say that they're losing money.

If the rip includes commercials: legal, though your local cable provider might have some issues with it.

If the rip doesn't include commercials: illegal

I think that its ok if your on the oceon or in outer space but on earth land it could be either way

i wonder if its "legal" for me to download TV Shows, even though i pay for cable, and the show i want to watch.

like, lets say i wanted to download "Detective Conan" cause i can't stay up til 1:30 every night. i get Cartoon Network, i pay for cable, would it be "legal" for me to download it and watch it on my computer? i mean, i already kinda paid for it, right?

It starts to get a little grey at that point. But, your cable bill doesn't pay 100% for your viewing. Part of the cost of watching a show is covered by you sitting through commercials. If people stop watching commercials, distributers will start increasing the cost of cable.

I'd like to see someone start distributing over the Internet. Pay-per-view downloadable shows in xvid complete with commercials.

That's exactly what I'd want. I snag a lot of shows online b/c I've missed them or I'd like to watch them on the road. I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable fee to download them. But it begs the question: could a company make enough money on a download to continue producing the show? My initial reactions, using the Sopranos and their inflated salaries as an example, is 'no' simply b/c HBO couldn't afford to produce the show on the signficantly lesser revenue generated by a download.

I'd love to see downloads supplement a broadcast, but how much money would a network lose to people who decide to cancel their HBO subscription b/c they can download the episode the next day for a lot cheaper?

If you don't have the means to watch the show and don't pay for the service, it IS illegal. If you don't PAY for cable TV, you shouldn't be watching anything FROM cable TV.

If you paid for cable TV and missed it, that's another story.

Mike

Very true...but downloading a movie or series isn't as convienient as it seems. Not to mention the quality (or lack thereof). HBO could offer a dowbnload of the Sopranos for .99 and still make a profit IMO. They might lose on DVD sales in the long run...but I think any loss would be negligible. I would much rather own a DVD set of the Sopranos than a downloaded copy burnt to a DVD. I also don't believe an HBO series is the sole reason for a person to subscribe to a premium channel (although it could play a role in the decision making process). As a matter of fact...Starz and Encore is already offering a similar service.

Nonetheless, I agree...probably illegal. That is too bad because SG Atlantis was pretty good.

Most of the time I download shows that I would have otherwise recorded on VHS a year ago. I love the simplicity of VHS, but ever since bittorren I just like to get HDTV widescreen quality when I watch the shows.

Bad Karma: If I'm watching something that a HDTV owner can get I probably AM stealing in indirect ways. I'm not an HDTV owner so I just ripped off the HDTV makers and the HDTV set top converter people. I also just screwed over the HDTV cable and satellite people.

As far as direct karma goes, as long as you're not a Neilsen household, which means that your viewership is recorded in ratings, then I see no real threat to the commercial fees that channels/networks/TV stations get.

I also download Atlantis and that is the only show that I download that I don't get with my cable package. But I think that you can repay them by buying the DVDs or waiting for basic syndication since that's what I would have done anyway (I just couldn't wait when it came to Stargate).

It is probably illegal for the person to provide it for you to download, but it is not illegal for you to download it (except perhaps for aiding and abeting the person running the server).

Copyright is about distribution, not use. Although there are potential issues with use-licensing, broadcasting something to a region implies a use license for everyone in that region.

I worked for a cable company and this was never brought up in legality issues. Basically it is the same as getting a tape from someone.

dcolton--


Assuming it's a copyrighted work, it is illegal per 17 USC 106 to reproduce a copy of it, which necessarily occurs when you download it.

You'll need to fall within an exception, and it is unclear that any would apply here.

But just because it is illegal, that doesn't mean that it is unethical. I don't think you've done anything immoral; IMO it's roughly on par with jaywalking or building a house with too small of a setback from the property line.



If you had cable, then that would be a factor to consider, but it wouldn't be probative all by itself.

And you're not stealing; you're infringing the copyright of whoever has the copyright on the work... which is probably some production company. There's likely a copyright notice in the credits somewhere.

Whiskedjak--


That is wrong on both counts. The commercials are totally irrelevant. In fact, if commercials are included, they're separate copyrighted works that you would ALSO potentially be infringing upon.

Millennium--


Man, see, I expect better from you, Mil. That's very wrong.

Copyright is about: reproducing, distributing, making derivatives, some public performances and displays, and a number of other things as well, but those are the main ones.

Downloading copyrighted works without permission is, almost always, illegal. Exactly as illegal as distributing them, in fact. And I strongly doubt that anyone would bother with claiming that a downloader is contributorially or vicariously infringing based on the uploader's direct infringement.

You're right that use is not part of copyright, but since computers necessarily reproduce works just to display them and such (see the MAI v. Peak line of cases for this) it's impossible to use something on a computer without reproduction.

And broadcasting something likely does NOT lead to implied authorization to download. In fact, I can't think of anyone even TRYING to make that argument seriously, much less that it would have one iota of success.

So then the question would be source. If he's getting it from Bittorrent, which is where most tv rips are available from, he's probably distributing while he's downloading.

It doesn't really matter much in the ethics of it, example:

I do not have cable. I have a little wire that acts as a decent antenna. The few channels I do get happen to carry the major shows such as smallville and who's line. Now I don't pay for those shows. Thus its no different than downloading them, the only difference is the commercials and thats really only an issue if all your tv is downloaded.

That about explains it!

i downloaded a couple of episodes of Alias because abc f'ed up the scheduling a few times and had it on late or not at all. i don't think its wrong as long as your not making money on it or anything like that.

You do pay for those shows. The difference between what you get through radio and what you get through the Internet is advertising. What you are watching for "free" is really subsidised by you watching the ads. You may or may not watch them, but most people do and they pay for your "free", or heavily subsidised tv. If there weren't ads included, even tv through radio wouldn't be free. Downloads don't generally include ads.

one flaw editing out the commercials

a better idea would be to stream them and get a membership with a monthly fee like cable.

or on a sidenote you could get a card that allows cable on your computer like alchemy or eyetv and then get payperview channels.

Yea, if downloading TV rips is illegal because they lack commercials, why isn't my EyeTV illegal?

Gee, so all those restaurants and bars that openly display cable programming are illegal. Why aren't they busting in on Fat Johnny's Extreme House of Wings when they are showing ESPN to anybody who walks in off the street ??

I sorta already posted the copyright is about distro not use bit

Maybe i'm not the person to ask because I believe hacking should be legal but my pov on this is that its ok as long as you don't sell or give copy's cause the person distributing them to you is wrong of course that makes you an accessory(I think).

but it was a good way to elaborate

yeah how come tivo isn't illegal? can't you skip commercials with it?

I really don't see how this could be considered illegal, or how anybody could say it is illegal.

Downloading copies of something that is actually sold, like a DVD, is one thing. But downloading something that is free over broadcast (yes, you can watch many TV channels with no cable service) is something completely different.

Who really gives a flying f*ck? You could have taped it.

All this legal/illegal stuff is just a bunch of crap. You could have watched it on TV for FREE anyway!

So get it and watch it.

YOU ARE TEH TERRORISTZ

YOU HAVE TO GIEV MONEY TO POOR TV INDUSTRY

YOU COMMUNIST PIECE OF ****

YOU'RE A DISGRACE TO YOUR GREAT NATION

WHAT'S NEXT? MURDERING YOUR OWN FAMILY? LOSING CHRISTIAN FAITH?

I'm amused that anyone is bothered by the ethical questions of this.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to watching James Burke's "Connections," which I just downloaded

And I'll go back to watching the X-Files which I just downloaded

Man, this is exactly why I hate copyright law. I am so confused now that I'm afraid to turn on my VCR lest some MPAA goon squad bust down my door.

I'm reminded of what Senator Elihu Root said about our tax code:

"I guess you will have to go to jail. If that is the result of not understanding the Income Tax Law I shall meet you there. We shall have a merry, merry time, for all of our friends will be there. It will be an intellectual center, for no one understands the Income Tax Law except persons who have not sufficient intelligence to understand the questions that arise under it."

Good lord, how hard is it to make straightforward and reasonable copyright laws?

Was that supposed to be funny?

Downloading stuff from broadcast is stupid, illegal or not. That's like stealing music at 32 kbps. It is compressed so bad you can count the artifacts. I'd pay $40 for Family Guy season 3, and not have to deal with the off color, high compression, sound issues, messed up proportions, etc. And everyone should have Family Guy.

And about the stealing. Borrowing requires a third party who knows who you are to have purchased the said item (tv show). Since only 5% of the P2P users supply 80% of the poor quality content, then it is highly likely you are stealing from somebody who stole that episode from someone else. It is stealing, broadcast, dvd, or whatever. It's not yours.

And you'd have to be paranoid to believe that the MPAA is going to bust down your door. And who uses a VCR anymore?

Sorry, I guess sarcasm and hyperbole do not translate well onto forums. I didn't mean for that to be taken quite so literally.

And I do use a VCR, although I also have a DVD player. Sorry, I haven't sprung for a TiVo yet.

On the legal implications of downloading TV shows -- legally speaking, it is probably not that simple. The copyright laws are notoriously complex, and common sense judgments are not always the legally correct ones (in general as well as in this case). Not that I know what's right in this case either... I'm not a intellectual property lawyer.

But on a moral plane, don't you think it's-well-wrong to download stuff like that? You didn't buy it, so you stole it. I thought it would be simpler than way. But morality to most people around here is only tacking 1,000 and looking at porn only twice a day.

MacNN doesn't need that attitude! Get the **** out!!!

Ethically speaking, I take the Mill's "harm to others" approach. So:

Broadcast TV, I think it's fine to download and maybe even share. Revenue is generated for those programs by selling advertising, and by downloading the programs you're not hurting those revenues (not very much, anyway -- only by *maybe* infintesimally decreasing their ratings.) Most people are probably downloading simply because of their schedule or to archive their favorite programs.

Cable TV, it's a bit murkier. You're more directly harming the cable company, which generates ad revenues but also charges user fees to subscribers. Downloading the program short-circuits both of those sources of revenue if you're not a cable subscriber. If you are a subscriber -- again, I'd say it's probably fine, so long as you're not handing it out to others (presumably non-subscribers.) You've paid your fee, and they'd certainly let you tape or TiVo cable TV programs for personal use.

Agree or disagree?

Don't forget Interpol and the FBI who put those nice scary messages at the end of videos and DVDs.



I think that we're mostly discussing the merits of downloading non-DVD released works (but you seem to group all of us anyway: It is stealing, broadcast, dvd, or whatever. It's not yours.") And there are content that isn't as badly pixelated. HDTV rips are pretty close to DVD quality—closer than TV rips of course.


Interesting points thus far:

Commercials are copyrighted works as well.

Any public place showing TV is similar to downloading.

Bittorrent leachers are also seeders (I conveniently forgot this fact).

TiVO and more advanced VCRs allow the user to skip commercials.

Read this on anti-piracy for movies.article

Uhm... no.

What do we know?

TV is free, advertising pays for it.
These are TV rips so I don't see any problem with downloading them off of the net.

Some people might say that with out the commercials you are stealing it.
By that logic, every time you get up and leave during a commercial break you are stealing television.

If the show is on cable though it could be argued that you are stealing it because you didn't pay for cable, yet cable has MORE commercials than regular TV!
So who is stealing from whom? You "stealing" TV, or the cable broadcasters stealing your time? You decide.

Though, when dealing with entertainment (movies, TV...etc), there are few instances where someone isn't getting screwed out of something. My philosophy is: Better them than me.

Cable TV is not free. Cable companies pay for those channels. Those channels derive their income from ads and payments from cable operators.

Yeah, they're idiots. The whole ad concept is based on voluntary viewing by the viewer. But, when you download a TV rip, though, someone else has removed the ads for you. That is where they have the problem. The choice should be made by the viewer. Even if you choose to download the ad-less rip, you are cheating them. The ad concept works based on the viewer's inaction (i.e. they see the ads through just sitting there, avoid ads by actively leaving the room, changing the channel, etc.) If the rip is available without ads, you don't see them through inaction. That is where the problem lies. If too many people start doing that, shows get cancelled due to low "legitimate" viewer ship.

They have more ads because advertisers pay a lot less for ads on cable due to a smaller audience. Cable operators still have to pay for those channels because the ads still do not pay for the channel completely.


Let's hope you don't produce products for people with the same philosophy.

How about borrowing a CD or a DVD from someone in person? Would that be illegal? And what about royalties on books from the library, where you don't have to pay to check them out?