Well that's rather exciting, if it comes to pass.

I don't think anybody in the US has a clue what a 3rd world nation needs for education considering what a mess the school systems in the US are like. There is a reason that McDonalds cash registers are nothing but pictures of food on the keys!

Did somebody have a marketing meeting on what markets were left to exploit with computers? Lets see the rich don't need computers because their acountants do their finances, and everything comes to them instead of them having to look anything up. The middle class is broke and already have atleast 1 computer per person, the geeks went retro and filled the basement up with machines, lets sell to some 3rd world kids dying from hunger and have no electricity!

Computers are a tool, they are not the answer to anything.

There is a reason that McDonalds cash registers are nothing but pictures of food on the keys!

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Perhaps the people pushing the buttons aren't from the US.

lets sell to some 3rd world kids dying from hunger and have no electricity!

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What about the kids from the 3rd world who have electricity and aren't dying from hunger?

It's not like the world is cleanly divided into two, and everyone's either overfed or living on mud in a refugee camp. There are plenty of places in the world where cheap computers will help kids gain skills that'll enable them to go further than they could without.

lets sell to some 3rd world kids dying from hunger and have no electricity!

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What about the kids from the 3rd world who have electricity and aren't dying from hunger?

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How about not treating everybody as just people to sell stuff to?

Consumerism is a Western World virus.

lets sell to some 3rd world kids dying from hunger and have no electricity!

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What about the kids from the 3rd world who have electricity and aren't dying from hunger?

It's not like the world is cleanly divided into two, and everyone's either overfed or living on mud in a refugee camp. There are plenty of places in the world where cheap computers will help kids gain skills that'll enable them to go further than they could without.

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Education means nothing when you live in a country with no jobs. What would these kids do with computer skills? Having basic computer skills doesn't even mean much in western societies anymore. Better to teach them how to grow food and sanitize water first. Those are skills they can actually put to use.

Perhaps one of the problems with the $12 computer is that it is being designed as a computer.

I seem to recall that one of the stated reasons behind the XO-1 (the "$100 laptop") was to create an ebook reader. The idea being that a $100 ebook reader was still cheaper than acquiring books for each student, keeping those books up to date, dealing with theft (the XO-1 has anti-theft mechanisms that books cannot have), and to facilitate local curriculum development. Alas, the whole project went haywire and they ended up with a $200 laptop.

Is that actually the best thing for the developing world? A lot of people have argued that it would be cheaper to build libraries, rather than equip each kid with books or a computer. The XO-1's anti-theft mechanisms only work if potential thieves know about them (since they are largely social backed with a bit of technology), and if the theft is motivated by monetary gain.

Of course, even with the expanded mission to give them fully functional computers, the skill isn't necessarily to teach them computer skills. One of the ideas behind the XO is that it serves as a communications mechanism, so that they can learn how to grow food and sanitize water, or better ways of doing it. Some kids may want to pursue a career in science or engineering, in which case a computer can be an invaluable tool. Particularly if you don't have any other means to explore science and technology. Or are you saying that these kids don't deserve the same opportunities that were afforded us simply because we had the advantage of being born in developed nations.

But at the end of the day, it is what does the developing nation's government or regional education bodies want. While a lot of the XO's are donated, most of them are being bought within the countries themself. Governments want to develop their own economies, because they know that a technological society can do the basic stuff like secure food supplies (better agricultural techniques, better food transportation and storage). We aren't the ones deciding that they need that, they are.

That being said, will a $12 computer inspired by the Apple II be useful. Well, it will probably suck as an ereader. The technology will be so old that it will be practically impossible to correlate with modern computers. As for a general education tool: maybe if it was an Apple II clone and they could license the old Apple II software, it would be useful. But that depends upon Apple licensing out IP, and digging up the corpses of old companies to license out IP. I just don't think that will happen, so it will face the same software development issues as the XO. Only it will be a worse product than the XO, because at least the XO was delivering relatively modern technology rather than 25 year old technology.

Education means nothing when you live in a country with no jobs. [...] Better to teach them how to grow food and sanitize water first. Those are skills they can actually put to use.

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Which countries are we talking about again? You seem to be missing my basic point - what about countries with jobs, with adequate water and food supplies but a poorly educated population? Countries aren't homogenic either. The problems you speak about might exist in the country side in same e.g. South American countries, but not amongst members of the lower middle class in the larger cities there.

I've had this discussion a online million times regarding the OLPC. Why is it that some people find it so hard to accept that there are places on Earth where all these basic problems of food, water, electricity, literacy and basic infrastructure are solved, and cheap computers - ie., tools for further education - will actually do more good than just about anything else?

What would these kids do with computer skills? Having basic computer skills doesn't even mean much in western societies anymore.

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Eh? Are there any jobs left that don't involve using a computer?

Eh? Are there any jobs left that don't involve using a computer?

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So many of the jobs that involve using a computer can be done without them, it sometimes just takes a bit longer or a bit more attention on the part of the worker. Of course, many do require computers nowadays but still, there are plenty that don't need them.

I would love one of these... I'm not contributing anything to the debate on whether it's useful or not, but the thing does sound pretty cool, especially if it'll be Apple II software compatible.

The number of knee-jerk, clichéd preconceptions about the "third world" in this and other XO/OLPC related threads astounds me.

Wow. Never expected this to go in such a different direction. I just thought it was an interesting project, especially for retro-collectors like us.

Still, you all make very valid points.

Eh? Are there any jobs left that don't involve using a computer?

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So many of the jobs that involve using a computer can be done without them

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... but aren't...

It's a very interesting project, and thankyou for linking it. I'll be passing it on to some OLPC developers I know, amongst others.

I think the idea of basing it on an Apple II is sheer genius, for the reasons this Slashdot commenter lays out:

Because there's an enormous pool of software for the Apple II - a pool of free software, not just commercial software, and free educational software to boot. And it's designed to work well with a standard TV set as the display.
The capabilities of the hardware are a minor issue. None of the alternatives you list are all that much better, and none of them have the huge pool of free and abandoned software. Computers aren't about hardware excellence, or we'd be using Amiga-derived computers now instead of IBM-PC clones. Computers aren't about processors, or the x86 would have died a well deserved death in the '80s. Computers are about running software. You get a computer that runs the software you want to run, and for an educational platform that has to hook up to a TV, the Apple II is probably the best choice.

I would hope that they used the 65C816 instead of the 6502. It's not a great CPU, but it would let them emulate anything up to the Apple IIGS, which gives them more software to choose from.

Because it's all about the software.

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So many of the jobs that involve using a computer can be done without them, it sometimes just takes a bit longer or a bit more attention on the part of the worker.

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So if you're out of time and attention, I guess they just don't get done.
Saving someone who works 12 hours a day for a buck fifty an hour of their time is incredibly helpful.

It's not just a matter of saving time, it's a matter of how efficiently other resources are used. Growing food can be as simple as scattering seeds on the ground or a cow in a field, but we would never be able to feed the world using those methods.

Simply put, computers allow us to optimize stuff. A computer (with the appropriate peripheral) can tell you the moisture content of your land. It can look at weather history and forecasts and tell you when would be the best time to irrigate the fields or spread fertilizer or spread pesticides. Computer can be used to monitor the storage and track the shipping of food. There is a hell of a lot of stuff that computers do behind the scenes these days. Sure you could have people manually doing all of that stuff, but the system would quickly collapse under the burdern of interconnected people.

In all reality, this Apple II inspired computer probably won't be Apple II compatible at all. It will probably be based upon a modern microcontroller. These microcontrollers are pretty neat because they package almost all of a computer's guts inside of a single package. The only thing that you have to do is add I/O devices. These chips are also cheap because they are used everywhere in industry.

If they package it up as a glorified Apple II, I'm concerned that it won't be of huge value. Unless it is Apple II compatible, it won't have a pool of software and very few people will be willing to develop that software. Even if it is Apple II compatible, you have to worry about licensing. It would be almost useless for developing computer skills since technology has changed so much.

BUT what if it isn't a modern retake on an old computer. A lot of these devices have things like analog inputs. That allows you to create dirt cheap sensors. Monitor the temperature. Monitor vibrations. Whatever. You have a kid that wants to be an engineer, you have an education tool and an inspiration. You have a kid who wants to be a farmer, you give him the ability to consider technological solutions to complex problems. Heck, even playing games can be beneficial if it is done in moderation.

Simply put, computers allow us to optimize stuff.

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The more you optimize and then depend on those optimizations the more brittle you make the system. A resilient system needs redundency, optimizing does the reverse.

Noticed food prices going up?

Food prices are going up because of poor management, not because optimization makes things brittle.

I agree that optimization can make things more brittle. That is particularly true when you design a system close to tollerances.

On the other hand, optimization does not have to make things brittle. Irrigation is a form of optimization. It allows you to ensure that the availability of a resource is fairly uniform. Same goes for storing food. It is a form of optimization that allows us to carry over food supplies into future years. These things make the system more resiliant.

Yet it is possible to manage things poorly. If you over irrigate, the soil will end up salinated. A steady food supply may encourage the growth of cash crops. Those things make the systems more brittle. But they are management decisions.

These things make the system more resiliant.

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Until the population increases and you depend on those optimizations, it's like raising the barrier on the high jump.

You should be able to count population growth as bad management but it's not PC.

I'm hoping it is a II clone myself. The pool of ready made software that would be unleashed is huge. Imagine stock control and accounting software for a small shopkeeper who is doing everything by hand now. Let alone all of the industrial (and yes agricultural) control apps that were made possible by the II and it's available slots.

I very much doubt it would be a 1:1 clone; more likely a small, low-power recreation that integrates some of the old (and perhaps some new) peripherals.

And I want one!

Food prices are going up because fuel prices are going up. Industrial agriculture is highly fuel dependent. Fertilizer is made from natural gas. And fuel price has pushed up the price (thus demand, thus supply) of biofuels, which are either made from food or grown on soil which could be growing food.

IMHO the biofuel boom has had a far smaller impact on food pricing than the moral panic suggests, and far smaller than the direct impact of fuel cost.

UPDATE: The MIT design team referred to in this post is basing its design not on the Apple II, but on the Nintendo Entertainment System, which used the same processor chip. We regret our error, which was originally reported by The Boston Herald article to whcih our post was linked. Thanks to David Zeiler at The Baltimore Sun for the clarification.

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http://cultofmac.com/mit-designers-resurrecting-apple-ii-for-india/2474

I had a feeling that reporter knew sweet FA about computers.

And finally: the actual project website

http://design4dev.wetpaint.com/page/TV+Computer?t=anon

What amuses me the most is that indigenous "third" world entrepreneurship, by understanding the market and supplying what people actually want, might end up achieving what the OLPC foundation set out to do, from the $10 bottom up.

Newly manufactured 8-bit computers are currently available in India for a cost as low as $10. / connecting to an existing TV / a full keyboard, mouse, 3 game controllers, and a suite of educational software and games. / a user can program in BASIC within 2 clicks of turning on the computer. We wish to make use of these existing TV-Computers as a target platform

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I still want one! Place your orders by PM, folks, I'll be back in India some time in the next 12 to 18 months.

Education means nothing when you live in a country with no jobs. [...] Better to teach them how to grow food and sanitize water first. Those are skills they can actually put to use.

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Which countries are we talking about again? You seem to be missing my basic point - what about countries with jobs, with adequate water and food supplies but a poorly educated population? Countries aren't homogenic either. The problems you speak about might exist in the country side in same e.g. South American countries, but not amongst members of the lower middle class in the larger cities there.

I've had this discussion a online million times regarding the OLPC. Why is it that some people find it so hard to accept that there are places on Earth where all these basic problems of food, water, electricity, literacy and basic infrastructure are solved, and cheap computers - ie., tools for further education - will actually do more good than just about anything else?

What would these kids do with computer skills? Having basic computer skills doesn't even mean much in western societies anymore.

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Eh? Are there any jobs left that don't involve using a computer?

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Having basic computer skills means nothing. If you want a job working with a computer you need to be an advanced user. Just knowing how to use a mouse and windows or a basic office package does not help you to get a job anymore because it is assumed everyone knows those things. If you want a job, you need to know a lot more.

I don't understand how that in any way, shape, or form constitutes an argument against getting computers to kids everywhere?

I don't understand how that in any way, shape, or form constitutes an argument against getting computers to kids everywhere?

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So if kids use computers at an early age will they

(a) all become Nobel prize winners at extreme cleverness and solving the worlds problems in peace and harmony

( B) become spoonfed dummies with poor social skills who are incapable of critical or original thinking and have no idea on what research actually is.

Computers in schools is just anther big sink for tax payers money and another way of dumbing down kids while pretending to be doing them some kind of favour.

UPDATE: The MIT design team referred to in this post is basing its design not on the Apple II, but on the Nintendo Entertainment System, which used the same processor chip. We regret our error, which was originally reported by The Boston Herald article to whcih our post was linked. Thanks to David Zeiler at The Baltimore Sun for the clarification.

Click to expand...

http://cultofmac.com/mit-designers-resurrecting-apple-ii-for-india/2474

I had a feeling that reporter knew sweet FA about computers.

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I did notice that this evening. Shame, as it would have been really cool had they actually based it off the Apple II. Ah well, still cool enough.

So if kids use computers at an early age will they
(a) all become Nobel prize winners at extreme cleverness and solving the worlds problems in peace and harmony

( B) become spoonfed dummies with poor social skills who are incapable of critical or original thinking and have no idea on what research actually is.

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Depends on the kid. Some kids will do marvellous things with computers, some won't.

Times change, and the skills that people need to survive change with those time.

Consider some of the skills currently taught in school: we spend an inordinate amount of time teaching them how to read, how to do mathematics problems, understanding world history, and so forth. We spend next to no time teaching them skills like how to hunt or fish or grow food. Kids these days truly have no understanding of what it means to survive. They are helpless if there isn't a grocery store on the next block.

Yes, I'm being somewhat sarcastic here. But I do run into a lot of back-to-the-basics arguments, because it is proven to work. Really, that's why the majority of people dropped out of school before grade 6 a century ago and out of school before graduating high school less than half a century ago. They like to say that traditional methods promote understanding. Really. Knowing long division has as much bearing on understanding the concept of division as using a calculator or a computer. (Ever see a kid who knows long division, but doesn't even understand the idea that you are dividing something into equal parts?) Then the reall BS starts flying, things like they would be helpless without calculators or computers. Really. Well if the world went to hell in a handbasket and calculators and computers ceased being ubiquitous you would probably find that your grocery store would have gone the way of the do-do bird too. At that point, basic survival skills (the stuff not taught in school) will probably be more important than the academic stuff.

I do agree that our use of computers in schools is both inadequate and misdirected, but that has more to do with teachers who think that computers are word processors than with computers themselves.