Thread

ALERT: eBay Auction, Hyperdrive 512k in Disguise!

68kMLA · Hardware · 42 posts · Sep 19, 2009 — Jan 28, 2012 View original thread ↗

#1 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 12:30 68kMLA

http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-Macintosh-512K-computer-mouse-drive-and-case_W0QQitemZ190334943506QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c50d8c112&_trksid=p4999.c0.m14#ht_500wt_977

No where does it say HyperDrive, but it has a tell tale label. I compared it to pictures of other 512k hyperdrives and it seems like this is one too!

I am not the seller.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

#2 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 12:49 68kMLA

Looks like a floppy drive to me. Either that, or you posted the wrong link.

#3 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 13:02 68kMLA

Thats compared to my 512k

#4 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 13:06 68kMLA

Ah gotcha. I figured that was what you might be pointing to. But I guess that sticker is useless without the HyperDrive though...

#5 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 13:23 68kMLA

Ah gotcha. I figured that was what you might be pointing to. But I guess that sticker is useless without the HyperDrive though...

Well it could be there. The Hyperdrive was an internal disk drive, so it's probably hidden inside the machine itself.

#6 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 13:57 68kMLA

Yeah, that's what all the hype

over the hyperdrive is about! It's an internal hdd for

the 512k.

I believe JDW has one.

Check the flickr 68kmla group you'll find it. Or

just search hyperdrive on here.

I'm not buying it so feel free to bid!

#7 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 17:32 68kMLA

Weren't HyperDrive labels red text? I'd bet that is a dealer's sticker. I can't make out what the label on the auctioned Mac says. It's likely that if there was once a HyperDrive in this Mac it's been removed. On average a Hyperdrive ran for about 2 weeks between trips back to General Computing for repair, and this does say the machine works, which would be extremely unlikely at this age if there were an old drive installed. Only one way to know, of course; buy the thing.

[edit] Ya know, what that looks like is an original "Macintosh" sticker from the back of an early 128K. Maybe this was upgraded to 512, in which case you got a new "Macintosh 512K" sticker for the back, and the owner stuck the old label on the front.

#8 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 17:49 68kMLA

Ya know, what that looks like is an original "Macintosh" sticker from the back of an early 128K. Maybe this was upgraded to 512, in which case you got a new "Macintosh 512K" sticker for the back, and the owner stuck the old label on the front.

I think that's exactly what it is. Here's a link to the HyperDrive label.

#9 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 22:21 68kMLA

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=422001

Toward the bottom of the page is a photo of the Hyperdrive label I remember. Anybody here have a Hyperdrive? Working?

#10 Sat, 19 Sep 2009 - 23:33 68kMLA

The Macintosh Logo is a STICKER?

My 512k's sticker seems to be plastic.

Well... I guess nothing to see here... :b&w:

#11 Sun, 20 Sep 2009 - 08:23 68kMLA

I second H3NRY's thoughts...that sticker definitely looks like it says, "Macintosh" for me, and looks exactly the same as said sticker on the back of my M0001.

#12 Sun, 20 Sep 2009 - 09:10 68kMLA

That's a "Macintosh" sticker on the face of that Mac in the EBAY auction. You can see how the right side of it is reflecting in the sun. The real question at this point is, WHY put that sticker on the front of the Mac? Seems odd to me, but certainly nothing that leads me to believe there is a HyperDrive inside.

My 512k with internal 20MB Hyperdrive also had a sticker on the face of the Mac, but the sticker was old, cracked and falling apart so I removed and placed it into File-13. Thankfully, the Mac wasn't yellowed hardly at all so you now cannot tell there ever was a sticker there. But I remember the sticker well, it was not the flat kind of sticker as shown in that HyperDrive 2000 photo, nor was it exactly like the other sticker you link two (with red it in). My HyperDrive sticker was about the same dimensions as the HyperDrive 2000 photo sticker, but mine was not perfectly flat. It was -- how can I describe it -- like it was encased in a transparent plastic "bubble" or "dome" of sorts. You know the kind, they leap out at you. My HyperDrive Mac also didn't have any special sticker on the back of the Mac either.

Even so, with EBAY you never really know what you are going to get. Who knows what is lurking inside that old Mac. And in many cases, if the sellers knew, they would try to charge a lot more.

#13 Sun, 20 Sep 2009 - 19:25 68kMLA

JDW, is your Hyperdrive in running condition? If your Hyperdrive has an MMI or Miniscribe drive, it would be a miracle if it still spins.

NEC 20 MB drives are the best bets of those early 3.5" drives. I have a couple of old NEC MFM drives from that era which still ran last time I fired them up.

Somewhere out in the barn is a MicahDrive chassis, which was a SCSI internal HD for 512s. Micah worked out an internal drive which didn't involve drilling holes in the Mac chassis, and held the drive, controller, power supply and fan all in one piece. Pretty good shock mounting, too. The drive still worked after PanAm dropped my Mac hard enough to break the case on a flight from Paris. I'll dig it out and take pictures.

I simplified my own internal HD some years ago when 2.5" notebook drives became available. I yanked the MicahDrive and stuck the laptop drive to the top of the floppy with bits of foam tape. My Mac still boots with the Micah icon, tho.

#14 Mon, 21 Sep 2009 - 00:04 68kMLA

JDW, is your Hyperdrive in running condition? If your Hyperdrive has an MMI or Miniscribe drive, it would be a miracle if it still spins.

The doctor is still out on whether my Hyperdrive is a "miracle" or not, but the fact is my 20MB drive mechanism does spin and read and write just fine.

Because no one has ever given me a clear idea as to the drive mechanism used in my Hyperdrive (exactly the same as one owned by TheNixer), I am curious to hear further evidence presented on the matter. Before doing so though, please be sure to read through this detailed threads on the matter:

viewtopic.php?p=6045#p6045

And here is another interesting historical thread pertaining to the Hyperdrive but not to the drive mechanism itself:

viewtopic.php?p=57472#p57472

And here are 3 of my Hyperdrive photos that show the front and back of the drive mechanism (click All Sizes to get a bigger view):

Thanks.

#15 Mon, 21 Sep 2009 - 02:32 68kMLA

Yep! That's an MMI drive. You are lucky you got one that was made just right. A lot of them had trouble with excess lubricant on the disk surface spinning to the outside edge where the heads would get stuck in it. Back then it seemed like all disk drive mfrs would go through periods where they couldn't build a drive that would run for more than 6 weeks. A working Hyperdrive is a real rarity. In the day, they marked the serious (and wealthy) Mac user. The thread about how GC got control of the system to patch disk I/O at boot time is correct. Hyperdrives have PC/AT MFM controller chips interfaced to the 68000 data & address buss on the clip-on card. No DMA, if I recall, but still way faster than a floppy or an HD20.

As time passes, it gets harder to find running examples of old drives. I thought I'd pick up a spare SCSI laptop drive last time I was at Goodwill (Austin's local computer recycler), but they said they hadn't seen one for a couple of years. You have to grab spares while things are available. Right now, it's G4s that are being recycled. G3s are getting scarce, though they were everywhere last year. If you need a G3 for parts, grab one while they're available and cheap. 68Ks are seldom seen now, and collectors are starting to bid the price up.

#16 Mon, 21 Sep 2009 - 07:17 68kMLA

That's an MMI drive.

Could you provide a source for your info, or a link to a photo of an official "MMi" drive? I ask this because someone from GCC told me here that it is NOT an MMi drive insofar as MMi was not a drive manufacturer.

Thank you.

#17 Mon, 21 Sep 2009 - 22:14 68kMLA

I don't think that's a Hyperdrive 512k but if it is the Hyperdrive is probably still in there - it'd be way more effort to remove one than to leave it in. I have a Plus with a Hyperdrive 2000 that still spins and a 512k with a Hyperdrive. I'm having a little trouble with that machine but the drive does spin.

#18 Mon, 21 Sep 2009 - 22:27 68kMLA

There were two MMIs, Microcomputer Memories Inc. (hard disks) and Monolithic Memories Inc. (chips). As the label on your disk says, it was made by MMI in Van Nuys, California, a small company which didn't last very long. Most of the Hyperdrives I've seen had MiniScribe mechanisms, which have 2 LEDs on the front panel, green for power OK / ready, and red for activity. Miniscribe went through a bad patch where all their drives died within 20 power on hours of use, and they refused to warranty them, claiming that they all had been abused. Minscribe also was famous for shipping bricks in HD boxes to meet their quarterly shipments goal and allow management to meet their earnings target. Obviously, this strategy only worked for one earnings report. :

As a result, most hard drive companies at that time sourced drives from multiple manufacturers. It would not be unusual to see an MMI, Miniscribe, Microscience, Rodime or NEC drive in any of these early boxes.

MMI references are few - they didn't last long:

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-08-13/business/fi-1562_1_net-loss (higher sales volumes but still losing money)

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-04/business/fi-6678_1_position-of-vice-president

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/MMEM ( note that whole company is worth $824 today)

#19 Tue, 22 Sep 2009 - 01:04 68kMLA

Most of the Hyperdrives I've seen had MiniScribe mechanisms, which have 2 LEDs on the front panel, green for power OK / ready, and red for activity.

Thank you for the interesting links on MMI. But would you know of any links to photos of the MiniScribe drives that show detailed drive information such as the model number? I am looking for something definitely that says "Here's a photo of a Miniscribe Model XXX" and of course looks exactly like the drive mechanism used in my Hyperdrive 512 (and that of The Nixer).

Thanks.

#20 Tue, 22 Sep 2009 - 02:32 68kMLA

http://www.4drives.com/4drives/8425.htm

http://www.redhill.net.au/d/d-a.html

http://www.harddrives-usa.com/MINISCRIBE-8425-MFM-3.5-IN-HH-hard-drive-pr-5376.html

or Google Miniscribe 8425 for more. None of the photos show one with a front bezel, unfortunately, and I don't think I have one in my garage to photograph.

#21 Tue, 22 Sep 2009 - 07:03 68kMLA

Thank you for the links. I had seen the Miniscribe 8425 photos some time ago, but that drive doesn't look like the drive used in my Hyperdrive Mac. Note how flat the top casing is on the 8425. Now note two major differences with my Hyperdrive mechanism: (1) it's tapered in sections on the top part and (2) it has a round orange plastic insert on the top as well. Both of these differences can clearly be seen in this photo:

Now compare that with the perfectly flat top of the 8425:

http://www.harddrives-usa.com/MINISCRIBE-8425-MFM-3.5-IN-HH-hard-drive-pr-5376.html

Another difference. If you compare my Hyperdrive photos with the 8425, you can see that the power connector on back is on opposite sides.

So I think the doctor truly is still "out" on this subject.

#22 Wed, 23 Sep 2009 - 03:49 68kMLA

I think the doctor truly is still "out" on this subject.

According to your Flickr page, your drive has a MMI label with model MM 112 on it. Seems to me proof enough that's what you've got. That was a real drive company and model number. It may not be the original drive for your HyperDrive, because those old drives are fragile and most of them were fairly short-lived. Most of them were replaced within a year or two. Your drive isn't a MiniScribe or Microscience or NEC or Tandon or Rodime. They all differed in one way or another from your photos.

#23 Wed, 23 Sep 2009 - 08:51 68kMLA

Your drive isn't a MiniScribe or Microscience or NEC or Tandon or Rodime. They all differed in one way or another from your photos.

Indeed. But I'm trying to determine the exact origins of the drive mechanism used in my HyperDrive Mac, even if it perhaps wasn't the original drive mechanism. It this drive certainly was built well though, as evidenced by the fact it still works perfectly.

Also, if the drive mechanism used in my HyperDrive Mac is not the original that GCC shipped, then it is quite a coincidence that The Nixer's Hyperdrive Mac 512 uses the exact same drive mechanism as mine!

#24 Wed, 23 Sep 2009 - 15:36 68kMLA

For those bidding on this Mac - it isn't a Hyperdrive. I asked the seller for a close-up of the front and it's actually the Macintosh badge from the back of the machine.

#25 Thu, 24 Sep 2009 - 02:13 68kMLA

But I'm trying to determine the exact origins of the drive mechanism used in my HyperDrive Mac

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what you want. You have a drive with an MMI label on it. MMI was a real drive company. General Computer shipped MMI drives among others. You want a DNA match from your drive and an assembly line worker at MMI? I don't think anyone can help you, unless you can find the accountant or head of shipping at GC and have him look up your serial number, assuming the records exist.

Nixer, does your drive have an MMI label on it? Two people with MMI Hyperdrives would seem to prove that such beasties existed, and that perhaps MMI was the most reliable drive that GC used, considering how few Hyperdrives have survived.

I was VP engineering at a disk drive company (Micah) during this period and we and all our competitors shipped drives from multiple sources, wherever we could find a supply of reasonably-reliable mechanisms. 3.5" drives were brand new at this time and everybody was trying to ramp up production and shake out the bugs in their designs. It would have been foolhardy to have your company dependent on a sole source.

#26 Thu, 24 Sep 2009 - 20:35 68kMLA

For those bidding on this Mac - it isn't a Hyperdrive. I asked the seller for a close-up of the front and it's actually the Macintosh badge from the back of the machine.

Wah wah wahhhh. Sorry for the confusion guys.

#27 Sun, 11 Oct 2009 - 15:10 68kMLA

Yes, but this auction does list a Hyperdrive Mac. It is interesting though how 7 people have bid up the price to nearly $1300 in spite of the fact the seller says the Hyperdrive is non-functional. It this thing sells for that, my "working" Hyperdrive Mac would surely be worth more (not that I would dare sell it, mind you).

It's also very funny to read the top part of the listing:

Steve Jobs said back in 1984 that it couldn't be done. That is, install a 10 MB Hard Disk into a Mac 128k... Well General Computer said it could and they went on to build the HyperDrive Mac.

Now skip down to the orange paragraph for this:

General Computer installed the 10MB Harddisk and added the 512k expansion memory.

Steve Jobs was right: this isn't a 128k Mac with internal HD. Even so, the photos are interesting. And the shot of the face of the drive mechanism looks exactly like the face of my Hyperdrive. The jury is still out on exactly what my drive mechanism is though. (I'm looking for more historical technical wiki on this drive mechanism than just "it's got an MMI lable, so it's an MMI drive". But as H3NRY pointed out in a previous post, MMI was short-lived so there are probably no photos available of the drives they made. If there was photo and a model number associated, that would be a good enough "DNA match" for me.)

#28 Sun, 11 Oct 2009 - 23:59 68kMLA

Thats a very impressive auction. I just need myself some damn system 400k floppies, not all this hyperdrive mumbo jumbo :rambo: :lol:

#29 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 - 00:25 68kMLA

Yes, but this auction does list a Hyperdrive Mac. It is interesting though how 7 people have bid up the price to nearly $1300 in spite of the fact the seller says the Hyperdrive is non-functional. It this thing sells for that, my "working" Hyperdrive Mac would surely be worth more (not that I would dare sell it, mind you).

The $1300 isn't because of the Hyperdrive. It's because it's an original (and very early, at that,) 128k, complete with all original packaging; *PLUS* a rare accessory.

#30 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 - 01:02 68kMLA

It's because it's an original 128k, complete with all original packaging

Actually it's not original, nor complete. It will have a 512K board in it, or at least an upgraded 128K board. Meaning, the logicboard will have to be restored to make it as valuable as the auction has achieved. It would be hard to do that and make a profit off of it too. It's also missing some disks and the disks included are not the original software. But yes mostly complete. That box is nicer than almost any I have ever seen. Certainly it was stored better than anything I have ever owned. Probably the high bidder will keep this baby anyway. Hyperdrive or no.

#31 Wed, 25 Jan 2012 - 09:17 68kMLA

An individual who used to be a GCC HyperDrive dealer in the 80's contacted me recently and we've had a long discussion about our respective units. He inspired me to take shoot additional photos of my MMI MM 112 drive mechanism, which I recently posted here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/GCCHyperDrive20DriveMechanism#

He also sent me the following scan which reveals some data about my MMI drive:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B3mQLg8d1xThNmI1YjExOTYtY2Y3OS00MTA4LWEyNjUtYzk5YWNkMGUzM2Y1

And this web page indicates my MMI drive has an ST-412 controller, which if true is the newer variant of the ST-506 interface:

http://protovision.textfiles.com/computers/hd_ref41.lan

So it seems I have a 10MB, not a 20MB drive after all. He also said my Hyperdrive is an early model unit and not one he was familiar with, especially because latter Hyperdrive models didn't have MMI drive mechanisms in them (to his knowledge). There must not have been many of these made, because I've been unable to find a photo of one that exactly matches the shape of my drive (although most ST-506 drives are quite similar). In any case, I am very pleased with this info, which sheds more light into the history of my drive mechanism. I hope you reading this find it informative as well.

#32 Wed, 25 Jan 2012 - 17:07 68kMLA

Thanks for posting those pictures. Now there IS documentation of an MMI mechanism available. I guess I should post pictures of my old disk drives for reference too. That big list covers some short-lived drive manufacturers, even a couple who never reached production. Different from today with only Seagate and WD in the same flooded industrial park...

JDW, I like your "Apple within an apple" avatar. Especially on a cube.

#33 Wed, 25 Jan 2012 - 17:43 68kMLA

I suppose this is useless trivia, but according to the platter/head/cylinder layout (2/4/306) that MMI drive in your Hyperdrive is from a logical standpoint literally a shrunken clone of the Seagate (Shugart) ST-412, the full-height 5 1/4" drive used in the IBM 5160 XT. (and namesake of the "ST-412" nomenclature denoting ST-506 drives which support buffered seek requests.) Space issues aside if you had an XT sitting around you could literally uncable the drives from both machines, swap them, and format them to full capacity on each other's controllers using the stock settings.

(It's probably sad that I didn't have to look up the Seagate settings. I had them memorized from having an ST-412 as my first hard drive.)

Basically what this translates to is almost *any* MFM (or RLL, they're the same hardware, just the data encoding method differs) hard drive with four or more heads and of suitable physical size would work as a replacement for a bum Hyperdrive. Drives with fewer than 306 cylinders are pretty rare. (Of course, if the formatting software lets you specify the size/geometry than you could use basically any drive that fits.)

#34 Thu, 26 Jan 2012 - 04:54 68kMLA

...almost *any* MFM (or RLL, they're the same hardware, just the data encoding method differs) hard drive with four or more heads and of suitable physical size would work as a replacement for a bum Hyperdrive.

Although my MMI drive still works, I would prefer to replace it with a flash drive, since any replacement spinning platter drive that was made back in the early 1980's would have the same potential for failure, not to mention high current consumption, slow speed, noise, etc. However, I am not aware of any MFM or RLL drive replacement flash solution. Are you?

#35 Thu, 26 Jan 2012 - 05:25 68kMLA

There actually are a couple commercial solutions for replacing MFM/RLL hard drives with either SATA or flash... but they are turn-your-hair-white expensive, unfortunately. (North of $2000.)

Its something still just a little out of the "easy homebrew" ballpark, alas. It would probably be doable with an FPGA but it requires handling serial data at about 20mhz with no latency. (Or to put it another way, it's about ten times harder than a floppy emulator.)

#36 Thu, 26 Jan 2012 - 08:15 68kMLA

I found an exact flash replacement for my MMI M112 drive:

http://www.datexdsm.com/disc/disque33.html

But the price is not shown, which leads me to believe it may be as costly as you suggest, Gorgonops! I'm afraid to even ask them about the price!

UPDATE: I just found out the price. Sheesh:

http://datex-boutique.com/product.php?id_product=47

#37 Thu, 26 Jan 2012 - 17:04 68kMLA

Yeah, the emulator products are priced so they might make sense if you desperately need to keep some dedicated industrial computer running. (You'll find MFM or RLL hard disks floating around in the strangest places, up to and including aircraft avionics systems.) For a hobbyist? Not so much.

I know it's a long shot, but... do any of the contacts you've found that used to work on the GCC Hyperdrive have access to the source code for the drivers and ROMs? Far more practical at a hobbyist level than creating an MFM hard drive emulator (where you have to deal with high speed serial data streams with no flow control) would be creating a complete "Hyperdrive Substitute" consisting of a Compact Flash/PATA IDE port on a 68k socket daughter card. The hardware is trivial. (Homebrew devices like that are a dime a dozen in the Atari ST and Amiga fields.) Writing drivers for custom devices is always the hard part for the antique Mac community. Since IDE/Compact Flash drives actually (partially) emulate the programming interface of a Western Digital ST-506 controller chip having the source for the Hyperdrive drivers would give you an easy leg up for writing a driver for an Atari ST-style parasite IDE board. A good programmer could probably adapt them in a few hours.

#38 Thu, 26 Jan 2012 - 18:39 68kMLA

The easy way to put a hard disk emulator in a Mac 512 is to add one of the SCSI-equipped upgrades and Mac Plus ROMs. From there, add a notebook SCSI drive like I have in mine, or use a SCSI-IDE adapter and a CF card or something like that. You can even beef up the analog board enough to run the drive without an added power supply. No hacking assembly language required.

http://web.me.com/henryspragens/stuff/Photos/Pages/Computers.html#10

It wouldn't be a HyperDrive, though, or use any of the HyperDrive parts. If you need HyperDrive source code, you probably will have to disassemble your ROMs and create your own, like we did with the Mac 128K ROMs to run our disk drives in 1984. A solid-state HyperDrive will either be very expensive or a lot of hacking.

#39 Thu, 26 Jan 2012 - 19:05 68kMLA

A solid-state HyperDrive will either be very expensive or a lot of hacking.

A typical Atari ST IDE board (which would be the same hardware, essentially) is four (or less) ICs on a few square inches of double-sided circuit board. That's not exactly expensive considering the price of SCSI-IDE bridges. It is, however, a lot of a hacking.

(If you're willing to replace the stock Mac ROM with EPROMs containing a hacked version my guess would be the simplest way to do a driver from scratch would be to start with the Mac Plus ROMs and replace the SCSI driver with your IDE drive code. The only thing the Hyperdrive source would give you is some hints on how to make the whole lashup work with the 64k ROMs. Hyperdrives worked with those, right?)

#40 Sat, 28 Jan 2012 - 07:57 68kMLA

I just added 11 new HyperDrive photos today:

https://picasaweb.google.com/103365672326265854011/GCCHyperDrive20DriveMechanism

Be sure to read the commentary beneath each photo, and click the little magnifier to zoom in more. As you can see, it clips to a stock Mac 512k logic board with the original 64k ROMs.

#41 Sat, 28 Jan 2012 - 12:01 68kMLA

I've just posted another 720p video here that shows the HyperDrive Mac 512 booting to the Desktop:

I also shot it from the side while booting, with the case back off.

#42 Sat, 28 Jan 2012 - 12:25 68kMLA

nice drawer icons, can you copy them and put them online?