Thread

Macintosh Se/40 CRT pinout?

68kMLA · Hardware · 22 posts · Jul 20, 2010 — Nov 10, 2021 View original thread ↗

#1 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 00:22 68kMLA

Hello, I have been looking for a pinout for a mac se/40 and was referred to here from macrumors.com.

I recently got a macintosh se /40 in a sale but the mainboard is bad. However the black and white crt does work and I was wondering if there was a way to use it as a monitor. I want to put my own computer in the se case (probally going to be a mac mini) and use the original screen. Similar to what these guys did but with the original monitor.

http://geektechnique.org/macmod.html

Can anyone here point me in the right direction with this? IM looking for a schematic of the se/40 but all i can ever find are ones for the se/30.

What i'm really looking for is a pinout for the cable that goes between the analong board and the mainboard Labled U1 or P4.

Anything would help

-Thanks

Devind

#2 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 02:16 68kMLA

SE/40?

#3 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 02:26 68kMLA

There was no SE/40 made by Apple, only an SE and an SE/30. The "30" in the model name refers to the 68030 processor. If you have something called an "SE/40" I would assume someone has added an aftermarket 68040 processor upgrade to the SE/30 PDS slot and renamed it. Can you post some pictures please?

In any case, the CRT in the SE/30 will be the same. Remaking it into a monitor will not be easy, as you can see by searching these forums for threads where it has been discussed before. The majority of the information (timing, levels and scan rates) are the same for all B&W compact Macs; there may be some small differences to the location of cabling.

#4 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 02:38 68kMLA

From his other threads (I googled SE/40) I think he found the European version of the SE FDHD with a 40 Mb HDD.

As for hooking up a Mac Mini to the internal display, that would be a total waste of time, and the computer would be unusable b/c of the extremely low screen resolution and the fact that the screen is strictly black and White. Your best bet to keep an original look would be to use a black and white CRT like in one of the Mac mini mods I've seen online.

#5 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 02:39 68kMLA

I would almost guarantee he means SE 1/40, which was a common European model that came with 1MB RAM and a 40MB HD. Unless of course he doesn't. :beige:

MacSE1_40.jpg.f312dc6a4911108d5709685175ffa4fa.jpg

d2e80129f928c219cc4adf978aa3faaf.jpeg.1a96bf028285770d48a4b78c9934216f.jpeg

455227912_2db121ce45_b.jpg.0ba7a2db4c26e39e71b0e89aa1062496.jpg

Not to be confused with the SE 1/20. :beige:

#6 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 03:11 68kMLA

Wanted to post pictures but my camera is not agreeing with me. It is a macintosh se 1/40 as seen in the picture Mac128 posted. The back says that it is a Macintosh se model M5011. Was given to me by a local computer store, they had it in the front window with a commodore 64 and When I asked about it they just gave it to me. Several people here said it would be difficult / not worth the trouble of making it into a monitor. Even if it would be low res would this be possible? If not is there any place in particular I can go to get a similar sized crt to squeeze into the se case?

Thanks for all the posts so far, really quick response time.

#7 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 04:12 68kMLA

The back says that it is a Macintosh se model M5011.

M5011 was used for Macintosh SE machines configured with internal hard drives (an SE without a HD was M5010).

No one, to my knowledge has successfully adapted a compact Mac analogue board to accept a modern VGA signal.

However as referenced above there have been many VGA grayscale mods like this one: http://dclausen.net/projects/tfam/

This is a good thread with a lot of good links to other threads and projects.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9191

#8 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 07:02 68kMLA

That is something very close to what I want to do with mine. I was hoping there would be some kind of adapter to make to use the crt thats there but being as there isnt I guess Ill start hunting for a crt that will fit. Thank you for the links to the epic mac mods.

#9 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 09:07 68kMLA

Issues with using the original B&W CRT are discussed in these threads:

viewtopic.php?t=6619

viewtopic.php?t=11656

viewtopic.php?t=12017

As you can see, there's a lot more to it than finding a pinout and hooking some wires up.

#10 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 17:15 68kMLA

viewtopic.php?t=6619

Good lord, how did I miss this? (probably because it was posted in the Lounge under an unrelated title and folks there seemed to focus on the wood-panel). Clearly viletim did not realize the enormity of his accomplishment. Unfortunately he only posted that one time.

But he seems to allude to the fact he can only manage text due to the 2-bit video capabilities of the original Mac design. Granted that's pretty bad for even a minimal VGA 18-bit color GUI or even 8-bit grayscale output, but was producing text a limitation of the software he was running, or merely a choice?

(sidebar: I just noticed Snow Leopard does not allow me to switch to grayscale, or limit my color output anymore - unless it was moved from the display settings, was this true for Leopard as well? – presumably relying on the attached monitor to dither the signal)

This all reminds me of the Micron XCeed grayscale adapter for the SE/30. Since the SE/30 logicboard would support color graphics, the adapter ran off the color output of the XCeed PDS card and replaced the connector to the back of the CRT. So clearly this can be done by powering the existing CRT off the analogue board, the tough part seems to be the conversion of the VGA signal frequency to match it (as well as dealing with the display overflow). Can the compact analogue board be modded to display 640x480 in the same way the Colour Classic can? That would at least solve the dimensional compatibility problem, but like the CC, probably put a lot of stress on the analogue board.

So, all we need is a "box" and driver to do this one little thing. As they say in the movie: "build it and they will come".

The reality is with POS CRTs rapidly being replaced by LCD-based systems, they are a much cheaper alternative than modding the Mac's 25 year old analogue board already prone to failure, especially considering the shrinking size of the CPUs that take less and less room inside the compacts every year. So there is no real reason to go this route other than to prove it can be done. Then again, isn't that the whole point of this forum? :beige:

#11 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 17:31 68kMLA

I guess Ill start hunting for a crt that will fit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/360275201399

http://cgi.ebay.com/370410039048

http://cgi.ebay.com/370237806446

http://cgi.ebay.com/370410039039

Suggestions only, no guarantee from me.

#12 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 17:36 68kMLA

But he seems to allude to the fact he can only manage text due to the 2-bit video capabilities of the original Mac design.

he also goes on to design a new amp system to generate 4 shades of gray, otherwise it was a 486 running dos

and I personally dont see how a nearly 200$ 9-10 inch lcd is cheaper than modding software and a few connections, if you used a beefier machine with linux you litterly just have to edit a text file on the software side

anyway this all gives me evil thoughts about my perfroma200, I havent considered a case mod, cause the durn monitor is expensive in those sizes, cheapest b&w crt ive seen is still 100+ bucks with shipping, it would be alot nicer to use the normal screen, though you loose resolution, I (again personally) cant imagine squinting at a black n white 9 inch crt pumping out 1024x768, the last one I had was barley readable at 640x480 in windows

#13 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 18:12 68kMLA

dont see how a nearly 200$ 9-10 inch lcd is cheaper

I think he meant that the LCDs are replacing the POS CRTs in commercial use, so there are cheap CRTs available used now.

perfroma200

AKA Classic II

the durn monitor is expensive in those sizes, cheapest b&w crt ive seen is still 100+ bucks with shipping

See above.

the 2-bit video capabilities of the original Mac

That'd be one bit.

he also goes on to design a new amp system to generate 4 shades of gray, otherwise it was a 486 running dos

And custom timings which required a lot of fiddle-faffing about in software.

was producing text a limitation of the software he was running, or merely a choice?

*Shrug* bit of both from the way I read it.

#14 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 18:18 68kMLA

no see above I priced them last night, unless you want a fuzzy 640x480 monitor (which is not an improvement in my book) that will be 100us$ please, and again timing is not a big deal if your using a beefier system that can handle linux, you edit a text file, which i am familiar with since I have to do it every time my xbox ends up on a new tv

Im looking at a old btx board right now, I can shove a couple gigs of ram on it and a fat p4 or a celeron D for ~25$ total, thats more than plenty for a linux box, and if the retro rez gets to you this thing also has dvi out so you could setup a dual display setup, the old small mono screen for toolboxes chat or whatnot and a large color screen (maybe even a wide screen in portrait mode)

point is it seems a little silly to spend 100$ on a 9 inch monochrome monitor when the rest of the mod would be well under 50$ in parts

and no your not going to just make an adapter, but we really dont know the skill set of the op, for all we know he could be a retired GE engineer who used to work on spy satellites

#15 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 18:24 68kMLA

But he seems to allude to the fact he can only manage text due to the 2-bit video capabilities of the original Mac design. Granted that's pretty bad for even a minimal VGA 18-bit color GUI or even 8-bit grayscale output, but was producing text a limitation of the software he was running, or merely a choice?

I think that was a choice. He mentioned that he built a four level video amplifier to replace the stock amplifier. That's the card hanging on the neck of the CRT. [nitpick]The video capabilities of the original Mac design are 1-bit, not 2-bit. [/nitpick]

Examining the video amplifier schematic for the original SE/30 and comparing it to the schematic for the Micron adapter helps to make sense of the thing. As viletim mentions, the original just has a switching transistor as the amplifier. It is on or it is off. The Micron adapter has considerably more flexibility.

Can the compact analogue board be modded to display 640x480 in the same way the Colour Classic can? That would at least solve the dimensional compatibility problem, but like the CC, probably put a lot of stress on the analogue board.

I do not think that the results would be good. I think that efforts to convert the VGA signal to a compact Mac signal are (mostly) doomed to failure. What viletim did was to essentially create a custom video output which really wasn't VGA any more. He just used a PC VGA video card as his hardware. And that hardware happened to be versatile enough to let him do it. But notice that he used software to modify the timing and the size output of his display to match the expectations of the Mac compact CRT.

To do something analogous on a Mac Mini, one would either need to find a way to hack the software parameters of the display output to get the smaller resolution, or get something like a cube motherboard and install a hackable or custom built video card. I don't think that 60 Hz will be a problem, because many LCDs seem to like 60 Hz, so the Mini probably supports that. Getting the smaller resolution and going grayscale could be a challenge, but surely all that stuff has been solved by folks who write utilities such as SwitchRes?

Wait, isn't there a PCI-e connector of some kind on the new Mini motherboards holding the wireless enet card? That could be hijacked for custom video output if necessary.

#16 Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 22:40 68kMLA

unless you want a fuzzy 640x480 monitor / that will be 100us$ please

Several of the ones I linked claim SVGA or 1024 x 768. The ones I have here do at least 800 x 600; they were NOS, rather than used, but I picked up eight of them for $20 each. No fuzz. And I'm pretty sure I got one of them to 1024x768 on some system or other. Nice and crisp. TVS brand.

timing is not a big deal if your using a beefier system that can handle linux, you edit a text file

Good to know, and (apart from doing it in DOS) pretty much what eviltim did.

it seems a little silly to spend 100$ on a 9 inch monochrome monitor

Yes, it does, doesn't it...

we really dont know the skill set of the op, for all we know he could be a retired GE engineer who used to work on spy satellites

In which case - welcome aboard! }