Csm Wanted Faq

Date: Sun, 17 Jul 1994 07:37:18 +0700
From: eharold@sunspot.noao.edu (Elliotte Harold)
Subject: New version of the wanted faq

From: elharo@shock.njit.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.wanted,misc.forsale.computers.mac,comp.answers,misc.answers,news.answers
Subject: Macintosh for sale frequently asked questions (FAQ)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.wanted
Organization: Department of Mathematics, NJIT
Approved: news-answers-request@mit.edu
Reply-To: elharo@shock.njit.edu (Elliotte Harold)
Summary: This document answers a number of the most frequently asked 
 questions about Macintoshes on Usenet.  To avoid wasting bandwidth
 and as a matter of politeness please familiarize yourself with this 
 document BEFORE posting.
Keywords: FAQ, sale, for sale, Macintosh, Mac, macintosh, mac


Archive-name: macintosh/wanted-faq
Version: 2.3.0
Last-modified: July 14, 1994
Maintainer: elharo@shock.njit.edu

Buying and Selling Macintosh Computers, Software and Peripherals
================================================================


          comp.sys.mac.faq, part 5:
          comp.sys.mac.wanted & misc.forsale.computers.mac 

          Copyright 1993,1994 by Elliotte Harold
          Please see section 5.8 of the general FAQ if you wish  
          to redistribute or revise this document in any way.

          Archive-name: macintosh/wanted-faq
          Version: 2.3.0
          Last-modified: July 14, 1994
          Address comments to elharo@shock.njit.edu


What's new in version 2.3.0:
----------------------------

     This FAQ list now features URL's for a many resources.  See
     the general FAQ list for details.


3.6:  Direct from Apple

     Apple has discontinued catalog sales.


3.9:  New Equipment Prices

     Many models have been discontinued and moved to the used equipment
     section.  Most Quadras and PowerMacs have seen prices fall moderately
     between twenty and two hundred dollars.  I've added some pricing 
     on the new Powerbooks and Duo's as well as including the Apple 
     Workgroup Server's for the first time.

4.1: Macrotime:

     PowerPC 603 machines have been pushed back to spring 1994 at the
     earliest, primarily because of problems with the 68040 emulator.

6.3:  Does anyone know a good mail-order company?

     J&R Computer World (1-800-221-8180) is now an Apple authorized 
     mail-order dealer.
  

                         Table of Contents                         
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I.   Buying and Selling Used Equipment
     1. Should I buy/sell on Usenet?
     2. Where should I buy/sell used equipment?
     3. I've decided to completely ignore your excellent advice and
        post my ad anyway.  What should I do?
     4. I've decided to completely ignore your excellent advice and
        buy something offered for sale on the net anyway.  How can 
        I avoid being ripped off?
II.  Fair Market Value
     1. How much is my computer worth?
     2. What is used software worth?
     3. Going prices?
III. Where Should I Buy a New Mac?
     1. Authorized Dealers
     2. VAR's
     3. Superstores
     4. Performas
     5. Educational Dealers
     6. Direct From Apple
     7. Auctions
     8. Does anyone know a dealer in New York City?
     9. New Equipment Prices
IV.  When Should I buy a new Mac?
     1. Macrotime
     2. Microtime
     3. When will I get my Mac?
V.   How Should I Buy a New Mac?
     1. Know what you want
     2. The dealer needs to sell you a mac more than you need to buy one
     3. Have a competitor's ad handy
     4. Cash on delivery
     5. The sales tax game
     6. Leasing
     7. Be nice to the salesperson.
VI.  The Gray Market and Mail Order
     1. What is the gray market?
     2. Are gray market Macs covered by Apple warranties?
     3. Does anyone know a good mail-order company?


RETRIEVING THE ENTIRE FAQ
=========================

       This is the FIFTH part of this FAQ.  The first part is also 
  posted to this newsgroup under the subject heading  "Introductory 
  Macintosh frequently asked questions (FAQ)" and includes a complete 
  table of contents for the entire document as well as information on
  where to post, ftp, file decompression, trouble-shooting, preventive
  maintenance and conditions for reproduction, posting and use of this
  document outside of Usenet.  The second, third, fourth, and sixth parts
  are posted every two weeks in comp.sys.mac.system, comp.sys.mac.misc,
  comp.sys.mac.apps, and comp.sys.mac.hardware respectively.  Please
  familiarize yourself with all six sections of this document before
  posting.  All pieces are available for anonymous ftp from 

  ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/macintosh/

       Except for the introductory FAQ which appears in multiple
  newsgroups and is stored as general-faq, the name of each 
  file has the format of the last part of the group name followed 
  by "-faq", e.g the FAQ for comp.sys.mac.system is stored as
  system-faq.  You can also have these files mailed to you
  by sending an E-mail message to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu 
  with the line:  

  send pub/usenet/news.answers/macintosh/name 

  in the body text where "name" is the name of the file you want as 
  specified above (e.g. general-faq).  You can also send this server 
  a message with the subject "help" for more detailed instructions.  
  For access via Mosaic use 

  http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/macintosh/top.html



========================================
BUYING AND SELLING USED EQUIPMENT  (1.0)
========================================

SHOULD I BUY OR SELL ON USENET?  (1.1)
--------------------------------------

       No, you should not.  Usenet is a medium by which information 
  is broadcast to millions of different people around the world.  
  It's almost certain that noone in Singapore wants to buy a Canadian
  Classic 4/40, even at a really great price.  Import laws, the cost
  of international shipping and a host of other concerns pose too 
  big an obstacle to the sale of small quantities of used equipment. 
  Even within one country geographical distances often pose a severe
  obstacle to the sale of used goods.  There is simply too great 
  a chance of either seller or buyer being ripped off in a
  long-distance transaction via non-payment, non-delivery, 
  or non-usable equipment.


WHERE SHOULD I BUY/SELL USED EQUIPMENT?  (1.2)
----------------------------------------------

       LOCAL bulletin boards, both of the electronic and paper
  varieties, are a far better medium for the sale of used hardware,
  software, and other tangible quantities.  Some Usenet sites and
  local areas have local for sale newsgroups (e.g. nj.forsale
  here in New Jersey) which are more appropriate for classified
  advertising than netwide groups like comp.sys.mac.wanted.  In 
  large cities and college towns you should reach just as many 
  potential buyers by advertising locally as by posting to the net. 
  Advertising locally gives both the seller and the buyer the BIG
  advantage of being able to meet to test the system, verify that
  what is being offered is in fact what is available, and avoiding
  the hassle of shipping.  The chance of being ripped off either
  through non-payment or non-delivery is GREATLY reduced by 
  advertising and selling locally.


I WANT TO POST MY AD ANYWAY.  WHAT SHOULD I DO?  (1.3)
------------------------------------------------------

       First see section 2.0 below to try and decide on a reasonable
  price.  Be prepared for flames if your price is too far out of line
  including follow-up posts warning potential buyers that you are
  trying to rip them off.  You may just want to state "best offer." 
  That way you aren't responsible if someone else misvalues your
  equipment.  If an offer does come in that meets your minimum price,
  you can sell it.  If there are no reasonable offers, you don't have 
  to sell. 
  
       Be sure to include a descriptive subject line in your post.
  For Sale, Macintosh For Sale, and Macintosh Software For Sale are
  all HORRIBLE subject lines.  Better subject lines would be 
  
     SE/30 4/40, $595 or best offer
          or
     Photoshop 2.5, unopened, $250.
     
  Then include a more detailed description in the body of the post.
  Also be sure to state whether or not you'll pay shipping.  (It's 
  much easier to sell an item if you agree to pay shipping.) 
    
       You should post your notice in comp.sys.mac.wanted and
  misc.forsale.computers.mac ONLY.  Posting a for sale ad to
  comp.sys.mac.misc is guaranteed flame-bait, even more so if your
  offer is over-priced.  You should also restrict the distribution of
  your message to as local an area as possible.  Ask your local news
  administrator for help if you don't know how to do this.
  
       Finally if you've sold your item please don't post a message
  saying the item has been sold.  Most of us don't care.  If you are
  getting a lot of offers and want to take the item off the market,
  it's better to cancel the original message.  The bandwidth cost is
  the same, but you'll save a lot of people the trouble of reading 
  two now-pointless messages from you.  Again you may need to ask 
  your local news administrator how to do this.


HOW CAN I AVOID BEING RIPPED OFF WHEN I BUY SOMETHING FROM THE NET?  (1.4)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

       You can't, which is the single biggest reason I recommend
  against buying and selling on Usenet.  The most effective
  precaution you can take is to insist on check-on-delivery.  That
  way you give the seller nothing until something is delivered, and
  you can stop payment on the check if what is delivered is not what
  was advertised.  This may cost a few dollars more, but the added
  security is more than worth it.  NEVER pay in advance for used
  goods from an unknown shipper.

       You may also want to insist on a work address and phone number
  for the seller.  This is especially effective if the forsale post
  originates from a company account.  The threat of being harassed at
  work is more effective than the threat of legal action against some
  unscrupulous individuals who realize you probably won't sue but may
  complain to their boss.  Even when dealing with completely honest
  individuals it's still much easier to haggle over terms and work
  out shipping arrangements via phone than through protracted 
  E-mail exchanges.



========================
FAIR MARKET VALUE  (2.0)
========================

HOW MUCH IS MY USED HARDWARE WORTH?  (2.1)
------------------------------------------

       Make your lowest estimate of the resale value of your hardware
  taking into account current prices on new hardware of equivalent
  capability.  Then divide that estimate by two.  The price you now
  have is somewhere above the fair market value of your hardware. 
  Almost everyone severely overestimates the value of their
  equipment.  I've seen friendships and business relationships
  destroyed once buyers realized how badly they'd been taken EVEN
  THOUGH THE SELLERS DID NOT INTENTIONALLY MISLEAD THE BUYERS.
 
       Computers are like cars in that they lose 30% of their value 
  as soon as you walk out of the dealer's showroom with one.  They 
  are unlike cars in that they lose more value when new models are
  released irregardless of the condition or age of the previous model. 
  Unlike cars newer models of computer really are better.  High-end
  systems retain their value longer.  My 8/45 SE/30, a high-end system
  when I bought it four years ago, is still barely salable today. 
  Had I purchased a low-end Plus instead it would at most be worth 
  $100 for parts. 



WHAT IS USED SOFTWARE WORTH?  (2.2)
-----------------------------------

       Almost nothing.  It's certainly worth less than the cost of
  distributing a for sale message around the world on Usenet.  If the
  software is the current version AND includes all original master
  disks and manuals AND a notarized letter transferring ownership
  from the original purchaser to the new owner, then it's worth 
  about half of the current mail-order or educational discount price,
  whichever is lower.  Especially note that software left on a hard
  disk when a computer is sold adds NOTHING to the value of the
  system.  The buyer can pirate payware and download shareware 
  just as easily as the seller. 


NO REALLY, HOW MUCH IS MY SYSTEM WORTH?  (2.3)
----------------------------------------------

       I'll give a few numbers I consider current as of mid 1994.
  Unlike the completely ridiculous prices you'll find in the AmCo
  index these values shouldn't leave the buyer feeling ripped off. 
  As a seller you can often get higher prices than these, but as a
  buyer these represent what you should be able to bargain somebody
  down to.  Asking prices and configurations vary WILDLY so haggle 
  and don't be afraid to wait for a better deal if you don't like 
  what someone is offering.

       When trying to determine reasonable prices for discontinued
  equipment I consider several factors.  First I set a floor for a
  given model based on what used equipment dealers like Sun Remarketing
  are willing to pay for inventory and by what repair shops will pay
  for parts.  Then I set a ceiling based on two thirds of typical
  prices for a model at used computer dealers.   Used computer dealers
  can charge more than individuals because they do offer warranties
  that provide some protection against buying a lemon.  Nonetheless the
  Macintosh market moves so fast that dealers of used equipment
  sometimes aren't able to unload inventory before the price of
  equivalent new models drops below what they paid for inventory. The
  existence of many of these dealers is marginal and depends heavily on
  customers who assume that new equipment is more expensive than old
  and that mail order is cheaper than buying from the local dealer,
  neither of which is necessarily true.  Thus I also considered the
  prices of equivalent and better new machines as well.  
  
       The real kicker here is the LC 475 (a.k.a. Quadra 605), a 
  25 MHz 68LC040 (no FPU) with 14" basic color monitor, 4 megs RAM, 
  160 megabyte hard disk, keyboard, several useful applications and  
  a twelve month warranty for about $1250 new.  Very few used Macs 
  currently being offered for sale have as much horsepower as this 
  machine though some may have additional features such as a better 
  monitor or more slots.  However very few people buying used equipment 
  need a better monitor or more than one expansion slot.  Thus as a 
  buyer or a seller ask yourself what a machine is worth compared to 
  an LC 475.  Within this range I try to set the suggested price in 
  the ballpark of the lowest asking price I've seen on Usenet or 
  elsewhere.  Finally I adjust the prices a little between models to 
  make sure that equivalently capable used Macs cost about the same 
  amount.  My ultimate goal is to ensure that a buyer who pays the 
  price listed here does not feel cheated in a transaction, either 
  because they see the Mac they just bought for $1000 advertised for 
  $500 two weeks later or because they realize they could have bought 
  a better Mac new for the same money.  Both of these happen far 
  too frequently.

       These prices are mainly for discontinued models.  For models
  that are still available new, see the list in question 3.8. Figure
  the same system used is worth about 64% of that price plus an 
  extra half percent for every month of warranty coverage left.  For
  compact Macs all prices include a keyboard and mouse.  Take $100
  off the price if there's no keyboard or mouse or both.  Otherwise
  the prices are just for the base CPU with internal hard drive and
  RAM.  Most offers to sell do include a monitor, keyboard and mouse
  and some room for haggling so asking prices will typically be
  somewhat higher.  RAM and hard drive configurations can vary
  greatly.  I've tried to include the high and low ends as well as 
  the configurations you're most likely to run across.  Use your best
  judgment when interpolating and extrapolating to other models.


          Mac 128                  $50
          Mac 512                  $60
          Mac 512ke                $75
          Mac Plus 1/0             $100
          Mac Plus 4/0             $150
          SE 1/0                   $150
          SE 1/20                  $200
          SE 4/0                   $200
          SE 4/40                  $275
          SE/30 1/0                $300
          SE/30 4/40               $500
          SE/30 5/80               $550
          SE/30 8/80               $600
          Classic 4/40             $275
          Classic 4/80             $325
          Classic II 2/40          $495
          Classic II 4/80          $590
          
          LC 4/40                  $300
          LC 4/80                  $350
          LC 10/80                 $450
          LC II 4/40               $400
          LC II 4/80               $450
          LC II 8/80               $500
          LC III 4/80              $595
          LC III 4/160             $650
      
          Mac II 0/0               $300 
          Mac II 0/0/FDHD          $350
          Mac II 8/40              $450
          Mac II 4/105/FDHD        $550
          Mac IIx 0/0              $400
          Mac IIx 8/80             $625
          Mac IIci 0/0             $575
          Mac IIci 8/80            $725
          Mac IIcx 0/0             $350      
          Mac IIsi 2/0             $425
          Mac IIsi 3/40            $520
          Mac IIsi 5/80            $575
          Mac IIsi 5/120/FPU       $600
          Mac IIfx 0/0             $1100
          Mac IIvx 4/80            $650
          Mac IIvx 5/80/CD         $800
          Mac IIvx 4/230           $750
          Mac IIvx 4/230/CD        $950

          Centris 610 4/80         $750
          Centris 610 8/230        $1000
          Centris 610 8/230/CD     $1150
          Centris 650 8/230        $1150
          Centris 650 8/230/CD     $1300 
          
          Mac Portable 1/40        $350
          Mac Portable 4/40        $400
          Mac Portable 4/80/Backlit $450
          
          Quadra 700 4/0           $700
          Quadra 700 4/80          $900
          Quadra 700 8/105         $1100
          Quadra 900 4/0           $1200
          Quadra 900 4/160         $1500

          PowerBook 100 2/20          $500
          PowerBook 100 4/40          $575
          PowerBook 140 2/20          $600
          PowerBook 140 4/40          $675
          PowerBook 140 4/120         $850
          PowerBook 145 4/40          $750
          PowerBook 160 2/20          $800
          PowerBook 160 4/40          $900
          PowerBook 165c 4/80         $1095
          PowerBook 165c 4/120        $1195
          PowerBook 165c 4/120/Modem  $1295
          PowerBook 170 4/40          $1100
          PowerBook 170 4/80          $1175
          PowerBook 170 8/40/modem    $1200
          PowerBook 170 4/120         $1265
          PowerBook 180c 4/80         $1550
          PowerBook 180c 4/160        $1660
          PowerBook 180c 4/160/Modem  $1770

          Duo 210 4/80                $795
          Duo 230 4/80                $895
          Duo 230 4/120               $995
          Duo 230 4/120/Modem         $1095
          Duo 250 4/200               $1650
          Duo 250 12/200/Modem        $1950
          Duo 270c 4/240              $2100
          Duo 270c 12/240/Modem       $2595

          ImageWriter              $50
          ImageWriter II           $75
          ImageWriter LQ           $100
          StyleWriter              $135
          Personal Laserwriter SC  $200
          Personal Laserwriter LS  …

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