Thread
Attention all hands... 68kMLA Rules Update (2009-03-21)
The 68kMLA Forum Rules have been updated today, and the main addition is this clause:
Thanks.
The number of threads we've had recently that serve no purpose other than to bash eBay sellers for either not knowing much about the item they're selling or for pricing it too high is simply unacceptable. While everyone here may think of themselves as experts, there are lots of people out there who know nothing about old Macs and it is unfair to them to laugh at their mistakes on a public forum. While I have no problem with people discussing the fair price of machines, some members have been less than subtle with their opinions of the sellers in question. This creates a bad vibe about the forum, and, to be honest, makes us all look like a bunch of sneering smart arses. If an interesting item happens to come up, then I have no problem with it being posted. But there really is no need to post common items that just happen to have a mistake in their listing or an inflated price tag.
Thanks.
It is also worth noting that we rarely, if ever, laugh at a seller for posting something for too little. Indeed, many of us boast about free (or dirt cheap) hauls. And, well, when you put 1 and 1 together to get 0 it just makes us sound like a bunch of freeloaders.
That being said, I don't like the rule. While you can regulate behaviours, it will not change attitudes. So we will just see that sort of behaviour manifest itself in other proliferating threads of discussion. (Remember when the problem was Mac vs. PC. Then it was bitching about sellers. What's next?)
That being said, I don't like the rule. While you can regulate behaviours, it will not change attitudes. So we will just see that sort of behaviour manifest itself in other proliferating threads of discussion. (Remember when the problem was Mac vs. PC. Then it was bitching about sellers. What's next?)
I don't see a problem posting a link to an item just to do a "price check". Granted most of us have picked up gear for little or nothing over the ages, but that will not last as stuff gets harder to find and people are willing to pay some money for them. Just like any other hobby posting final sale prices is a good idea to show members what is common, rare, and commands money (atleast so they do not toss it). I would also think people mine this site to see what we deem worth paying for.
Ebay only keeps concluded auctions online for a short time anyway, after which the links do not work.
As II2II pointed out, you cannot regulate attitudes. If somebody wants to poke fun at an ebay seller there are many ways around posting a direct link to it.
Ebay only keeps concluded auctions online for a short time anyway, after which the links do not work.
As II2II pointed out, you cannot regulate attitudes. If somebody wants to poke fun at an ebay seller there are many ways around posting a direct link to it.
I agree.
And can we please stop making fun of each other because we didn't write something the right way? I don't know if its just me, but I don't take them as a "joke".
Maybe it's because I have been in a rather insecure mood these past couple of months. :-/
And can we please stop making fun of each other because we didn't write something the right way? I don't know if its just me, but I don't take them as a "joke".
Maybe it's because I have been in a rather insecure mood these past couple of months. :-/
I don't have a problem with people posting links to do a price check. It's the spate of recent posts that are along the lines of "Look at this... a for . This seller must be crazy or on drugs! What an idiot!" that we've had recently that I'm trying to cut down on.
Floppy Disk Burner.
I am done now.
I am done now.
...And floppy burning software! :
But yes... There is no need to post every single "RARE!COLLECTORS ITEM! 2003 iMac! VERY FEW IN EXISTINCE! ONLY 4.7BILLION DOLLARS!" just because you may think the price is too high.
There is someone out there who will buy it.
But yes... There is no need to post every single "RARE!COLLECTORS ITEM! 2003 iMac! VERY FEW IN EXISTINCE! ONLY 4.7BILLION DOLLARS!" just because you may think the price is too high.
There is someone out there who will buy it.
Locks keep out honest people. Regulations or protocols guide civilized people. However, for this community's sake and the protection of this site's owner it must be clear that whatever-bashing quickly reaches a satiation point. Tom has set the bar on this one. Let's abide by it.
de
de
Agreed.
Sorry... :I
Just a comment on the "floppy disk burner" comment: we're talking about a technology that has not been in common use for over a decade. (Rememeber, Apple pulled the floppy drive out of iMacs in 1997 or so.) Very little software has been distributed on floppies for about 15 years. People haven't really been saving data to floppies for about 20 years. Is it any wonder that someone gets the terminology wrong?
On top of that, any one of us could end up saying something stupid like that. I know a lot of people used to ask for "Apple II ROMs" for emulation, and they were talking about games rather than the system's firmware. (They were actually looking for disk images.) I frequently muck up on terminology for Windows based systems, since I'm more attuned to Unix linguistics. And so on. When you make fun of people for mistakes like that, chances are that they won't learn and remedy it. They will just be turned off and hostile to you.
On top of that, any one of us could end up saying something stupid like that. I know a lot of people used to ask for "Apple II ROMs" for emulation, and they were talking about games rather than the system's firmware. (They were actually looking for disk images.) I frequently muck up on terminology for Windows based systems, since I'm more attuned to Unix linguistics. And so on. When you make fun of people for mistakes like that, chances are that they won't learn and remedy it. They will just be turned off and hostile to you.
Exaggeration, much? Flash drives really didn't become mainstream until about 4-5 years ago, or so. Guess what everyone used for transporting data before that. Oh sure, they had ZIP disks and many computers had CD burners, but floppies were still a very largely used form of media until flash drives.
Yeah. 20 Years? That would mean that people hadn't used floppies since 1989 :
:lol:
the previous two post are a perfect example of what the topic of this thread is about. So it hasn't been 20 years since people quit backing data up to floppies. His point was that some times people screw up and it's bad form to jump on them for it, which is exactly what you two did.
The whole point here is that some people don't know much about the computers they are auctioning on eBay, or even talking about in these forums. We need to quit bashing people and instead maybe try to help them so they will learn more, if they want to, and maybe become active members of the retro-community.
Just my two cents worth,
Dean
The whole point here is that some people don't know much about the computers they are auctioning on eBay, or even talking about in these forums. We need to quit bashing people and instead maybe try to help them so they will learn more, if they want to, and maybe become active members of the retro-community.
Just my two cents worth,
Dean
Just to address the 10/15/20 year comment, yeah I will stand by it. I don't think that people have much of a concept of what the world of computing was like before the hard drive was affordable. What loading a program off a floppy was like, or saving all of your data to floppy, or (later) what installing a program off a stack of floppies was like. It was a royal PITA. So when hard drives came around people pretty much dropped them, except when they had to. Which pretty much left floppies to installing programs and swapping data, then finally just swapping data. Even when it came to swapping data, things like Zip drives were used in many areas because floppies simply weren't large enough. (And later CDs, in spite of the pain of burning.)
Todays' retro users seem to treat them as some sort of novelty. Part of the experience. Well, I can tell you that most of the experience was leaving those floppies on the shelf unless you really needed to use them.
Todays' retro users seem to treat them as some sort of novelty. Part of the experience. Well, I can tell you that most of the experience was leaving those floppies on the shelf unless you really needed to use them.
No doubt many are quite curious to learn of what precise threats were made against our fine forum owners to have resulted in such a strict tightening of rules. And while some may wish to argue that one or more of our family here at 68kMLA provoked such rules, I suspect rather that severe outside pressure was the key to it. Whomever, therefore, made such threats against our good members is certainly sitting back with a large grin on their faces right now. This is a victory for them.
At any rate, the rules are now what they are. Let us therefore abide by them. My personal thanks to forum owners for offering us this forum to express our thoughts.
At any rate, the rules are now what they are. Let us therefore abide by them. My personal thanks to forum owners for offering us this forum to express our thoughts.
It must have been the ESIAA (eBay Sellers Industry Association of America). }
Regardless of why the mods decided to implement that rule, there is a need for a lot of us to adjust our attitudes. Maligning people over irrelevant things is a problem around here. Now I'm not talking about expressing a difference in opinions here. MacAttack94 certainly made a relevant point: perhaps I was over-stating the floppy situation. (I don't think so, disagreement is what differences in opinion are about.)
But System7's original floppy disk burner comment was a barb. It didn't express anything directly, but it did imply, "this is how stupid some people are." That is malicious, even if it is meant to be humorous. It is not a difference in opinion.
I suppose if that were true, then no outside pressure would have been applied to our respected forum owners, nor would our forum owners then have decided to delete a thread and post new rules. But did some of the best minds and most well respected "family" among us actively contribute to that now-defunct thread over "irrelevant things"? Something in all this was quite relevant to many.
I personally wish to keep family first, outsiders second. As such, it should not be any secret as to the real reason for the thread deletion and new rules. If outside pressure was the key, as I suspect it was, let it be revealed and we then shall move on. Otherwise there will always be lingering suspicions and perhaps even genuine fear that other threads may face the same fate because "outsiders" can make a big deal about "irrelevant things" and get what they want.
While it is true that we had an e-mail concerning the thread in question, aside from bringing it to our attention it had little to do with the final decision to implement new rules. There was certainly no "outside pressure" forcing us to implement them. We simply didn't like the attitude that some members were displaying in that thread, and others since. This is not a "family", it is a public internet board, and hence some degree of order has to be maintained. This isn't helped by the fact that some members seem to treat this like their private little club and think they can get away with anything because it's "their" forum. If keeping the peace and cutting down on this behaviour requires making new rules, then we will do so.
Agreed! This is an army, not a ladies' club! Discipline, soldiers! >
It has already been said that this is not a family.
I will also point out that this is not a private community either.
Everything that happens in our "army" does not stay in our army. It is published to the world in a very public manner. Anyone who wishes to lurk here can lurk here. Anyone can stumble across a conversation here by submitting a query to Google, or any other search engine. Anyone can join the forums, and the only way that they will be booted is if their conduct is particularly anti-social (like spamming). Members can also leave and never give the forums a second thought, because our only bonds are a common interest (and not blood).
If I cut my hand on a mac case and then sell it to another forum member who cuts his hand on the same section of the mac case, are we blood brothers? :lol:
No, but you may want to be fitted in matching straight jackets.
Sieg Heil! :-x[This is an army, not a ladies' club! Discipline, soldiers! >
I myself participate most often in the Compact Mac section of this great forum, so I do not know all the many diverse members of our fine Army personally. But many have sent me emails offline in the past as well as PM's, and through the years I have developed friendships with a number of people. Indeed, I've been in our Army so long that I tend to treat others with the same high regard as I do my own family, as do many in the regular armed forces. And just as regular military units protect their own in battle, I was simply suggesting we do the same. By no means was I suggesting that a select few should be allowed to run amuck and destroy order and sanity to this forum (as some have suggested was the case).
Some among us are well educated, write well, and often exercise their vast knowledge of classic computing in thought provoking discussions on this site. There are several people that I myself have tremendous respect for because of their intense love of classic Macs, which shines forth in their detailed posts. These people spend hours pouring over a given topic, scrutinizing every last detail in a discussion. They also share first hand experience rather than idle speculation. I personally consider this exhilarating as I learn an enormous amount from their posts and I am more willing to try new things with the old Macs I own. Indeed, this is why I return daily to this forum, to get a new dose of classic Mac info from the experts among us; and from time to time, I offer some of my own first hand experiences for the benefit of others here. My personal feeling is "do unto others as I would have done to myself." But most importantly, I've not found our respected members to be disrespectful to our members here in the Army, not even to new enlisted privates (or to "lurkers"). Go to other forums and you find chaos -- single line posts galore, statements like "you're stupid" or "I'm gonna hunt you down." We don't have any of that here. I suppose that such could be due in part to our rules, but perhaps it is more likely due to the maturity of our members here versus other forums.
Take it how you will, but many of the highly respected contributors among us had participated in the now controversial discussions. I myself cannot flippantly cast them into a bowl badged "troublemakers" or "lurkers" for they simply exercised the same mentality in scrutinizing classic Mac sales as they have in scrutinizing topics like floppy drive cleaning, logic board repair, networking ancient Macs to modern day computers, etc. It's not like a brand new member suddenly posted an off-the-wall topics like "gay married Mac 128k users" or "Facist SE/30 owners of America." Purchasing classic Macs is one of the most fundamental issues we all face. How do most of us obtain the machines we have? Most often it is and was through some sort of online purchase. And many among us have faced many problems, scams, outrageous pricing, and misleading sales (vendors who play on the assumption that we assume they don't know much about classic Macs when they really do). It therefore should not have come as any surprise that some of our veterans started a valid "classic Mac related" topic on issues that affect most of us. This was done all in the knowledge that these forums are indeed indexed by Google, such that anyone search for "classic Mac" related information will find this site. While now in retrospect it can be said that things perhaps "got out of hand", I still do not feel that the individuals involved are evil, underhanded, anarchist lurkers set on nothing more than wreaking havoc in our forums and who can easily "run away" anytime they like. It is simply their same passion for the Mac we love that has spilled over into another fundamental area of our Mac lives -- how do we get more Macs safely and economically? So it is our diversity and passion that is at the heart of the matter, not merely a handful of irresponsible no-goods who never contributed anything significant to our forums.
With all this said, I appreciate the forum owner's kind response in confirming that there was an outside email, albeit one that apparently was not the root cause of the decision to delete a thread and change the rules. That settles it in my mind, and I am satisfied with that. May we therefore move on yet remain a diverse group that is not afraid to stimulate intelligent thought on our mutual love, the Macintosh.
I had thought you ment "sells your hand," and not the case. :lol:
But seriously, the blood business only works with Witches and the Devil.
Achtung!
I agree; this is the most in-depth and focused message board I belong to, and it's great. I ask all my questions here. In some forums, long posts are shunned with a tl;dr comment. But here, long posts are revered, and picked apart for priceless knowledge.
Perhaps we can make a sub-forum that only registered members can access. In this forum we can post things which are not prohibited, which are not secret, but which we do not want distributed across Google and other search engines. I think one of the problems with the original eBay threads is that specific sellers and items were mentioned and these were Google searchable.
However, the thread where the seller actually came on the forum and replied to some of our criticisms, while heated, was informational and constructive. I learned some of the motives behind chopping, and how these are valid from a business standpoint.
However, the thread where the seller actually came on the forum and replied to some of our criticisms, while heated, was informational and constructive. I learned some of the motives behind chopping, and how these are valid from a business standpoint.
This is a public forum, not a private members club. End of.
I don't see how such a forum would make it a "private members club". Registration is free and open to everybody. Private clubs generally imply some sort of exclusivity or requirement to enter. Does that make the War Room a private members club?
Maybe we can just make posts typed entirely in a PNG and displayed as an image, at least until Google figures out OCR.
A "Sub-forum that only registered members access" is by definition a "private members club".
As for making posts into PNGs, thats just stupid. Whats wrong with the way it is now?
As for making posts into PNGs, thats just stupid. Whats wrong with the way it is now?
"Private Members Club" is actually a sort of legal status in the United Kingdom, where ~tl is located.
Based on a few quick searches these clubs may have something to do with racism or sex discrimination in the UK. It is a loaded phrase.
Here is a quote from a government site:
We can extrapolate from this that members of a "Private Members Club" must undergo a selection procedure. Free and open forum registration is not a sufficient selection procedure, as anyone may register regardless of race, origin, age, gender, sexual orientation, wealth, status, etc.
Therefore, such a forum is NOT a "Private Members Club", at least in my limited understanding.
It remains to be determined, however, if a lawsuit regarding 68kMLA would be governed under the laws of the United Kingdom or under the laws of Plano, Texas, USA where the server appears to be located.