Thread
Largest hard drive in a 630?
Welp, I have a client who (believe it or not) is still using his 630. He had a hard drive malfunction and we're replacing his drive for him, then dumping 8 on it.
I was wondering if anyone knew of any peculiarities with the 630, as far ask hard drive sizes and other such things, and caveats for the replacement of said drive. We've gone through about six drives and been unable to initialize them with Drive Setup on both the 7.6.1 and 8.0 install CDs.
Anyway, thanks in advance!
CCC
I was wondering if anyone knew of any peculiarities with the 630, as far ask hard drive sizes and other such things, and caveats for the replacement of said drive. We've gone through about six drives and been unable to initialize them with Drive Setup on both the 7.6.1 and 8.0 install CDs.
Anyway, thanks in advance!
CCC
The fastest HD you can use on these machines is a PIO 3 standard, which is early ATA-2 drives. On the drive itself it should not list a speed higher than 11.1 mbps. or a cycle time of less than 180 NS. This should be located on the sticker on the drive.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=16335
It looks like you need to hunt down an old PC to scrap.
Also, the OS limits your partitions to 2gb each.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=16335
It looks like you need to hunt down an old PC to scrap.
Also, the OS limits your partitions to 2gb each.
Surely that is not the case under either 7.6.1 or 8.0? In 7.1.2P to 7.5.1 there are limits in the OS, certainly. It can well be imagined that the other conditions in artnum=16335 are inherent in the IDE controller rather than the OS.
de
Pretty much any drive 120GB or less should be fine. Before I put a Performa 5260 board in my 630, I used a 2002 vintage Western Digital 40GB 7200rpm drive from my 2003 Dell in it, and it worked perfectly.
You'll want to put 8.1 on there for him, so that you can use HFS+ volumes. A 68k cannot boot from a HFS+ volume, or use it for VM, but it can access a HFS+ volume without a problem. What I'd do if I were you would be to make a 1 or 2 GB HFS volume, to hold the system and applications, and then format the rest as HFS+.
You'll want to put 8.1 on there for him, so that you can use HFS+ volumes. A 68k cannot boot from a HFS+ volume, or use it for VM, but it can access a HFS+ volume without a problem. What I'd do if I were you would be to make a 1 or 2 GB HFS volume, to hold the system and applications, and then format the rest as HFS+.
the 630 was the very first ide controller in a mac. It has limitations. Perhaps the poster above had a drive that downgraded itself to work at that speed. It is a good idea to try older hard drives in this process.
I don't know about OS 8 but OS 7 does limit me to 2 gb per partition perhaps it's my controller. Seriously though this does affect the macs described in the apple note I linked above. This was new tech at the time, there was limitations of the ide controller.
Personally if I were you clinton, I would add a nubus scsi controller and put a big 18 gig in it. Also charge 300 for your trouble and parts. These are 15 year old machines, he should be praising the lord his computer has lasted this long. If it has lasted this long it will last another 15 years!
I don't know about OS 8 but OS 7 does limit me to 2 gb per partition perhaps it's my controller. Seriously though this does affect the macs described in the apple note I linked above. This was new tech at the time, there was limitations of the ide controller.
Personally if I were you clinton, I would add a nubus scsi controller and put a big 18 gig in it. Also charge 300 for your trouble and parts. These are 15 year old machines, he should be praising the lord his computer has lasted this long. If it has lasted this long it will last another 15 years!
I've happily used a 40GB Seagate ATA/33 disk in a 630 before. It's a bit of a waste if you run anything earlier than OS 8.1 on it mind you.
The key issue is *partitions* are limited to 2GB in early OS versions, I think they went up to 4GB at 7.6 or 7.6 (can't remember which) and at 8.1/HFS+ they went up to something silly. The physical capacity of the *disk* is not limited by these factors so much as you can have many 2GB partitions on a larger disk (I used to run 18GB disks in my 840av in 7.1 with 9 partitions each
). I think there is an upper limit on the number of partitions classic Mac OS can handle, but it's something bigger then you'd ever fit on your desktop I'd guess. I'd probably shoot for a 8GB or 16GB at most. Anything larger is gonna be wasted on a 68k era machine, even with FAT binaries the stuff was way smaller than anything on OS X these days.
The key issue is *partitions* are limited to 2GB in early OS versions, I think they went up to 4GB at 7.6 or 7.6 (can't remember which) and at 8.1/HFS+ they went up to something silly. The physical capacity of the *disk* is not limited by these factors so much as you can have many 2GB partitions on a larger disk (I used to run 18GB disks in my 840av in 7.1 with 9 partitions each
). I think there is an upper limit on the number of partitions classic Mac OS can handle, but it's something bigger then you'd ever fit on your desktop I'd guess. I'd probably shoot for a 8GB or 16GB at most. Anything larger is gonna be wasted on a 68k era machine, even with FAT binaries the stuff was way smaller than anything on OS X these days.
That would be System 7...IIRC, releases prior to 7.5.5 (??) were limited to only 2 GB partitions.
Also, sadly, since the LC630 has no NuBus slot, and there are no LC PDS NuBus controllers, he cannot add a NuBus SCSI card, though its not that big an issue, the 630, like most 68ks has a SCSI controller built in. (and unlike what they say, it DOES support SCSI Manager 4.3)
For the record, that drive wasn't the only modernish drive i've had in my Performa...I've used it a lot for testing wayward IDE HDDs that I find from old machines, and its never let me down.
Also, sadly, since the LC630 has no NuBus slot, and there are no LC PDS NuBus controllers, he cannot add a NuBus SCSI card, though its not that big an issue, the 630, like most 68ks has a SCSI controller built in. (and unlike what they say, it DOES support SCSI Manager 4.3)
For the record, that drive wasn't the only modernish drive i've had in my Performa...I've used it a lot for testing wayward IDE HDDs that I find from old machines, and its never let me down.
I've only used IDE drives with OS 9 & 10 so I might be wrong on this.
Drive setup 1.x may need to patched to work with non-Apple drives.
http://www.euronet.nl/users/ernstoud/drvsetup.html
http://lowendmac.com/sable/07/0425.html
The 630 requires "Internal HD Format", which is specific to the 630. Although a hacked Drive Setup from OS 8 should be able to do the job.
There are two types of limits involved with the 630. The first is an IDE/ATA limit. ATA-2 only supports up to 132 GB, which really means 120 GB (nobody made any drives between 120 and 132 GB.) Any drive under that should be recognized just fine. Any drive larger than that, and you would give up any capacity over 132 GB, and would require that the drive have a "132 CAP" or similarly-named jumper set on it. (Some newer drives don't have this, and would not work at all.)
The second limit is, as SilValPir mentions, is software. Depending on the version of the MacOS, your partition size may be limited. You can 'get around' this by just using multiple partitions. One problem is that you have to use HFS for the boot partition on a 68040, although data partitions can be HFS+ on a 68040 system. (So you could have OS 8.1 on a 2 GB HFS partition, and the rest of the drive as one big HFS+ partition for apps and data.)
There are two types of limits involved with the 630. The first is an IDE/ATA limit. ATA-2 only supports up to 132 GB, which really means 120 GB (nobody made any drives between 120 and 132 GB.) Any drive under that should be recognized just fine. Any drive larger than that, and you would give up any capacity over 132 GB, and would require that the drive have a "132 CAP" or similarly-named jumper set on it. (Some newer drives don't have this, and would not work at all.)
The second limit is, as SilValPir mentions, is software. Depending on the version of the MacOS, your partition size may be limited. You can 'get around' this by just using multiple partitions. One problem is that you have to use HFS for the boot partition on a 68040, although data partitions can be HFS+ on a 68040 system. (So you could have OS 8.1 on a 2 GB HFS partition, and the rest of the drive as one big HFS+ partition for apps and data.)
Wouldn't a 7200 RPM drive be overkill in a 630? I thought the bus would become saturated before you reached the transfer limit of a fast IDE drive and the heat generated by a 7200 RPM drive in the small space inside a 630 might also be something to consider.
IIRC, Internal HD Format is only for System 7.1.2. For System 7.5.x onwards, Drive Setup will do the job, and you don't even need a hacked version. I just use the version that comes on the OS 8 CD, and it works fine.
For the record, 7200rpm drives do just fine in a 630.
I remember installation of a 20 GB HDD in a Performa 630. Using drive setup I could not get partitions in different HFS/HFS+ format. In the need for a HFS boot partition I made all partitions HFS, regardless of the 8.1 HFS+ capability. How can one work around this issue ?
Actually, a 40GB WD Caviar might be a good choice. The added spindle speed doesn't go to waste at all... I've got benchmarks showing a Mac Classic booting faster from a drive with a lower seek time!
You're totally right about saturating the low transfer rate of the controller, but the seek time still makes a huge difference.
The heat concern is real with older drives, but with modern ones with FD bearings, they're cool and quiet; probably moreso than the stock 4500RPM drive.
I used to use a 5400RPM 20GB Laptop drive (with adapter) in my LC630. Same thing, but with OS 8.1 and HFS, I was able to use the whole thing. Not bad though... I would love to get my hands on a classic mac again, but from what my friend said, that may be soon (He hit the mother-load with unopened 5.25" Apple ][ Floppy controller and a bunch of unopened software and manuals for Apple II series computers)
I hope I get a color classic, but I *may* be getting a PowerBook 160 or 140. I forgot which...
I hope I get a color classic, but I *may* be getting a PowerBook 160 or 140. I forgot which...
Interesting that you were not able to have both HFS and HFS+ partitions on the same drive. Has this happened to anyone else?
So long as you are using 8, you can use pretty much any hard drive you want. I've heard of incompatibilities with certain models, but for the most part that "incompatibility" has been user error. Seagate 40GB ATA 133 installed in my frankenstein 6200 right now running just fine. In fact, I don't think I have ever had an issue with 99% of seagate products. As far as a size limit, unless they sell 4TB 3.5" HD's yet, then there really isn't a limit.
EDIT: Didn't see that this was an old message, sry.
EDIT: Didn't see that this was an old message, sry.
To summarize, ANY drive will work, and the only limitations to consider are the 128 gig limit and the filesystem limits.
You can put in a larger drive, but the machine will only see 128 gigs; I often use 160 gig drives so I can get the FULL 128 gigs, because 120 gig (10^9) drives actually give about 110 gigs (2^30).
If you make a modest HFS partition at the beginning of the drive of, say, 1 gigabyte and install Mac OS 8.1 on it, you can then use as much of the remaining disk with an HFS+ partition.
All modern drives will run at the slower IDE bus speed. Also, there aren't any drives these days which take more power than the old, original drives. Most take a lot less, even at 7200 RPM.
You can put in a larger drive, but the machine will only see 128 gigs; I often use 160 gig drives so I can get the FULL 128 gigs, because 120 gig (10^9) drives actually give about 110 gigs (2^30).
If you make a modest HFS partition at the beginning of the drive of, say, 1 gigabyte and install Mac OS 8.1 on it, you can then use as much of the remaining disk with an HFS+ partition.
All modern drives will run at the slower IDE bus speed. Also, there aren't any drives these days which take more power than the old, original drives. Most take a lot less, even at 7200 RPM.
The limit is 4TB's, not 128gig's. If need be, I'll install and format a 160gb IDE drive just to prove the point
Please do. The limit on m68k Mac IDE is 128 gigs due to the fact that the IDE of the time supported 28 bit addressing giving 2^28 (268,435,456) sectors of 512 bytes each for 137,438,953,472 bytes total, or 128 gigabytes, or what some people nowadays call 128 gibibytes.
IDE drives with 48 bit addressing can access 2^57 bytes (2^48 + 9 bits in a sector), or 144,115,188,075,855,872 bytes, or 128 petabytes.
Not sure where the 4 terabyte number comes from, since legacy SCSI is limited to 2 terabytes... But I'd love to learn more, especially if I'm wrong!
IDE drives with 48 bit addressing can access 2^57 bytes (2^48 + 9 bits in a sector), or 144,115,188,075,855,872 bytes, or 128 petabytes.
Not sure where the 4 terabyte number comes from, since legacy SCSI is limited to 2 terabytes... But I'd love to learn more, especially if I'm wrong!
I believe it's the file system (HFS/HFS+?) that has the 4TB Limit. It would be interesting to see what the next version of File system apple is gonna come out with if HFS+ limit ever gets released. I am thinking they would go with eFS if anything. (I think I did that right. It might be ExtFS+ or something)
But yeah, t'would be intersting to see what comes out. Maybe ZFS?
But yeah, t'would be intersting to see what comes out. Maybe ZFS?
HFS+ has a limit of 8EB (exabytes)....I don't think we're going to be running into that limit any time soon. 
HFS is limited to 2TB, so I don't know where 4TB comes from.
HFS is limited to 2TB, so I don't know where 4TB comes from.HFS is limited to 2 gigabytes. HFS+ used to be limited to 2 terabytes because it allowed for up to 2^32 blocks, the same as original SCSI-2, but that's been updated. I have a couple of arrays with single HFS+ volumes in excess of 25 terabytes.
I'm curious where you come up with this stuff. Look in the other thread about this same issue. I posted a screenshot of a 40gb IDE drive formatted in HFS(not HFS+) and it uses all 40gb's(well 38. something) HFS has no known limit as well as HFS plus. IDE and bus protocols are SEPARATE from file systems and have no impact on them. Let me find that earlier thread.
Soon as I can get a replacement HD of larger than 130gb's, I'll stick it in my Frankenstein machine and format it, you just have to know how to do it, and what apple tools to use. Don't mean to sound insulting if I am sounding that way, but I have been doing this since the mid 90's and am old and grumpy.
P.S. And when formatting a 40gb HD with plain old HFS, the smallest file size is 1.1mb's Not very usefull is it?
Soon as I can get a replacement HD of larger than 130gb's, I'll stick it in my Frankenstein machine and format it, you just have to know how to do it, and what apple tools to use. Don't mean to sound insulting if I am sounding that way, but I have been doing this since the mid 90's and am old and grumpy.
P.S. And when formatting a 40gb HD with plain old HFS, the smallest file size is 1.1mb's
Not very usefull is it?Sorry - you're right - I was speaking about things too specifically.
Yes, you're right - the maximum volume size under System 6 and 7 is 2 gigabytes. With System 7.5, the limit was raised to 4 gigabytes and System 7.5.2 and later increased that limit to 2 terabytes. However, HFS (non-plus) only allows for 2^16 allocation blocks, so a 2 terabyte volume formatted as HFS would use 32 megabytes per file at minimum, no matter how much data was in the file.
Not particularly efficient, but that's why it's good to have a small HFS partition for booting and HFS+ for the rest of the drive.Soon as I can get a replacement HD of larger than 130gb's, I'll stick it in my Frankenstein machine and format it, you just have to know how to do it, and what apple tools to use. Don't mean to sound insulting if I am sounding that way, but I have been doing this since the mid 90's and am old and grumpy.
P.S. And when formatting a 40gb HD with plain old HFS, the smallest file size is 1.1mb's
I'd enjoy being happily wrong about the IDE controller on the Quadra 630, just as I learned recently that the Quadra 840AV will support four 128 meg SIMMs, but a lot of older controllers don't support 48 bit allocation blocks. I look forward to seeing this!
Here is the Apple Tech Note on volume sizes: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA27115
However, it's worth noting that even System 7.5.3's installer appears to use signed 32bit quantities when doing volume size checks. As a result, it won't actually let you install on volumes >2GB despite being able to create and otherwise use >2GB. System 7.6's installer will allow you to install, although it seems to only recognize any volume >2GB as 2GB exactly.
Other installers and software may do something similar, so I've simply created a 2GB boot volume, installed on that, and left the rest for data.
However, it's worth noting that even System 7.5.3's installer appears to use signed 32bit quantities when doing volume size checks. As a result, it won't actually let you install on volumes >2GB despite being able to create and otherwise use >2GB. System 7.6's installer will allow you to install, although it seems to only recognize any volume >2GB as 2GB exactly.
Other installers and software may do something similar, so I've simply created a 2GB boot volume, installed on that, and left the rest for data.
As a followup to my previous post, since this is specifically regarding a 630, the following section of the KB is relevant:
However, 7.6.1 mounts the 18GB volume just fine despite the KB not specifically calling out a difference between 7.6.1 and earlier.
The 630 meets neither of these criteria. I tried it out just to see. Under System 7.6.1 I formatted a 20GB drive with a single volume using Drive Setup 1.7.3. The machine refused to boot off it (Happy Mac came up, machine hung for a while, then went to a Sad Mac). I repartitioned to 2GB and 18GB and installed 7.5.5. The machine booted fine, but when it came time to mount the 18GB volume, it displays the following:
However, 7.6.1 mounts the 18GB volume just fine despite the KB not specifically calling out a difference between 7.6.1 and earlier.
Hi, all,
I've had the chance to get a few different drives into a Quadra 630. Outlander was right about the Quadra 630 supporting drives larger than 128 gigs, which I'm certainly happy about. I suppose it makes sense since the Quadra 630 came out several years after the Amiga 4000 and 1200, which do have the 128 gig limit on their IDE.
However, Drive Setup and other utilities only see 128 gigs no matter the real size of the drive, and I couldn't find any way around this in Mac OS on the IDE bus at all. Outlander - I'd love to hear if you have had any luck with this part. In order to partition my drive using the full size, I had to use a SCSI Quadra with a SCSI-IDE bridge, then install the drive back in the Quadra 630.
In NetBSD, though, the full amount of the drive is seen and can be used:
wd0 at atabus0 drive 0:
wd0: quirks 0x2
wd0: drive supports 16-sector PIO transfers, LBA48 addressing
wd0: 698 GB, 1453521 cyl, 16 head, 63 sec, 512 bytes/sect x 1465149168 sectors
wd0: drive supports PIO mode 4, DMA mode 2, Ultra-DMA mode 5 (Ultra/100)
This system is happily cvs'ing and compiling away, soon to be set up to compile NetBSD's pkgsrc software for softfloat m68k ports (which is particularly useful for LC040s which can't emulate an FPU properly). I even managed to fit a QuadDoubler onto the motherboard:
http://www.ziaspace.com/~john/q630_1.jpg
http://www.ziaspace.com/~john/q630_2.jpg
http://www.ziaspace.com/~john/q630_3.jpg
It's turning out pretty well... Next, I'd like to find a Quadra or Performa 631 motherboard with two SIMM slots so I can have a machine with 196 megs of memory...
John
I've had the chance to get a few different drives into a Quadra 630. Outlander was right about the Quadra 630 supporting drives larger than 128 gigs, which I'm certainly happy about. I suppose it makes sense since the Quadra 630 came out several years after the Amiga 4000 and 1200, which do have the 128 gig limit on their IDE.
However, Drive Setup and other utilities only see 128 gigs no matter the real size of the drive, and I couldn't find any way around this in Mac OS on the IDE bus at all. Outlander - I'd love to hear if you have had any luck with this part. In order to partition my drive using the full size, I had to use a SCSI Quadra with a SCSI-IDE bridge, then install the drive back in the Quadra 630.
In NetBSD, though, the full amount of the drive is seen and can be used:
wd0 at atabus0 drive 0:
wd0: quirks 0x2
wd0: drive supports 16-sector PIO transfers, LBA48 addressing
wd0: 698 GB, 1453521 cyl, 16 head, 63 sec, 512 bytes/sect x 1465149168 sectors
wd0: drive supports PIO mode 4, DMA mode 2, Ultra-DMA mode 5 (Ultra/100)
This system is happily cvs'ing and compiling away, soon to be set up to compile NetBSD's pkgsrc software for softfloat m68k ports (which is particularly useful for LC040s which can't emulate an FPU properly). I even managed to fit a QuadDoubler onto the motherboard:
http://www.ziaspace.com/~john/q630_1.jpg
http://www.ziaspace.com/~john/q630_2.jpg
http://www.ziaspace.com/~john/q630_3.jpg
It's turning out pretty well... Next, I'd like to find a Quadra or Performa 631 motherboard with two SIMM slots so I can have a machine with 196 megs of memory...
John
Just a followup - I found a source of cheap 631-type motherboards. They're listed as Performa 580 motherboards, but they have two sockets and should take one 128 meg and one 64 meg SIMM.
http://www.adoptamac.com/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=53
Note that the site is listed as one which contains malicious content, but they have Google Checkout, so even if the server isn't secure, you can still get one for $7.49.
I'm putting this motherboard in my Quadra 630, so anyone who has a shell on this machine will notice a little more memory soon.
http://www.adoptamac.com/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=53
Note that the site is listed as one which contains malicious content, but they have Google Checkout, so even if the server isn't secure, you can still get one for $7.49.
I'm putting this motherboard in my Quadra 630, so anyone who has a shell on this machine will notice a little more memory soon.
Site linked above is not malicious. There is a thread about it in the lounge. Very repectable seller, I have bought from him.
Could you use a Compact Flash as a (IDE-) HDD on a 630? Did anybody try?
It would be nice to "load it up" with my favorite applications from BasiliskII and just plug it into the 630 to boot a real Mac...
It would be nice to "load it up" with my favorite applications from BasiliskII and just plug it into the 630 to boot a real Mac...