Thread
Mac Hardware Hacking Ideas
I'm thinking about starting on a new Mac hardware hacking project, and searching for ideas. Any suggestions? I'm hoping for something that other people would actually find useful, or at least find fun/interesting. Here are some random ideas… some of them are extensions of things other people have already done, and some are new. If any of them appeal to you, pick your top three.
1. Floppy Emu - Lisa support
2. Floppy Emu - IIgs support
3. Adapter for using ADB and pre-ADB (128/512K/Plus) keyboards and mice on a modern USB-base computer
4. Adapter for using modern USB keyboards/mice on a vintage Mac (bbraun mostly has this already, but it could be made more plug-and-play)
5. A Mac power supply voltage meter, similar to Uniserver's power tool but all on a single PCB
6. A magic turn-on peripheral for Mac II series and later that simulates pressing the keyboard power switch. Turns on the Mac remotely, or with some giant red ON button, or with three claps, or wirelessly from your phone, or (insert interesting "on button" behavior)
7. A ROM-inator type kit for other Macintosh models - maybe the LC or Classic
8. A 20 MHz 68000 accelerator for compact Macs
9. VGA or video-out for compact Macs (bbraun already has this partly working)
10. Something like a Floppy Emu, but that works over LocalTalk, and appears as a LocalTalk file server
11. Sharks with laser beams attached to their heads
1. Floppy Emu - Lisa support
2. Floppy Emu - IIgs support
3. Adapter for using ADB and pre-ADB (128/512K/Plus) keyboards and mice on a modern USB-base computer
4. Adapter for using modern USB keyboards/mice on a vintage Mac (bbraun mostly has this already, but it could be made more plug-and-play)
5. A Mac power supply voltage meter, similar to Uniserver's power tool but all on a single PCB
6. A magic turn-on peripheral for Mac II series and later that simulates pressing the keyboard power switch. Turns on the Mac remotely, or with some giant red ON button, or with three claps, or wirelessly from your phone, or (insert interesting "on button" behavior)
7. A ROM-inator type kit for other Macintosh models - maybe the LC or Classic
8. A 20 MHz 68000 accelerator for compact Macs
9. VGA or video-out for compact Macs (bbraun already has this partly working)
10. Something like a Floppy Emu, but that works over LocalTalk, and appears as a LocalTalk file server
11. Sharks with laser beams attached to their heads
3. I had seen this before; will this not work for ADB keyboards/mice? http://www.amazon.com/Griffin-2001-ADB-iMate-Universal-adapter/dp/B000067V8L/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424145916&sr=8-1&keywords=USB+ADB
I like 11, that'd work for Sharknado 3.
I'd like something like ADTPro, but for the Mac, but that's less hardware and more software. Or a NuBus USB card.
That being said, on your list, I think FloppyEmu support for the IIgs would be nice. Also a plug-and-play keyboard adapter for the older RJ-11 style Macs (preferably ADB)
I'd like something like ADTPro, but for the Mac, but that's less hardware and more software. Or a NuBus USB card.
That being said, on your list, I think FloppyEmu support for the IIgs would be nice. Also a plug-and-play keyboard adapter for the older RJ-11 style Macs (preferably ADB)
Awesome list!!!
However, I thought of one even better...
12. A port of Tetris Max for OS X
However, I thought of one even better...
12. A port of Tetris Max for OS X
Kaypro 2x uses a very similar keyboard connector, I was astonished to find.
I second the suggestion of FloppyEmu support for the Apple IIgs.
Also, in the late 1990s directly before the introduction of the Power Macintosh G3 Blue-and-White (or maybe right after) MacWorld had an issue about servers, and one of the feature articles was a series of review about ADB dongles that would look for a heartbeat in the system and reboot it if the system or a particular app hung.
There were also ADB power strips that had more advanced functionality, such as scheduling. http://www.sophisticated.com/products/powercontrol.html
A modern reimplementation of something like that could be pretty neat, for scheduled reboots on a Mac that's doing server tasks, for example. (Although, presuming your server app doesn't manage to bring down the system, you could almost just do that one purely in software, so that may not really be that exciting.)
Also, in the late 1990s directly before the introduction of the Power Macintosh G3 Blue-and-White (or maybe right after) MacWorld had an issue about servers, and one of the feature articles was a series of review about ADB dongles that would look for a heartbeat in the system and reboot it if the system or a particular app hung.
There were also ADB power strips that had more advanced functionality, such as scheduling. http://www.sophisticated.com/products/powercontrol.html
A modern reimplementation of something like that could be pretty neat, for scheduled reboots on a Mac that's doing server tasks, for example. (Although, presuming your server app doesn't manage to bring down the system, you could almost just do that one purely in software, so that may not really be that exciting.)
FloppyEmu support for the IIgs is mostly simulating that Sony chip in the daisy chain board that routes the control signals from the IIgs floppy port as previously discussed here. I think the Also the firmware should be updated to support mounting 2MG format disk images that is commonly used by Apple II emulators.
http://apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/Docs/DiskImage_2MG_Info.txt
http://nulib.com/library/2img-type-note.md
The disk image manipulation program CiderPress is a good place to see reading/writing 2MG files in action (it also supports Disk Copy images too): https://github.com/fadden/ciderpress/
http://apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/Docs/DiskImage_2MG_Info.txt
http://nulib.com/library/2img-type-note.md
The disk image manipulation program CiderPress is a good place to see reading/writing 2MG files in action (it also supports Disk Copy images too): https://github.com/fadden/ciderpress/
ADB: Yes, the Griffin iMate works - I used to have one. Adding support for serial mice and RJ11 keyboards would be interesting, but maybe has limited enough extra appeal to not be worth the effort.
ADTPro: I'd seen that once before, but I think I don't understand the appeal of it. How would you envision using that on the Mac, to do something you couldn't already do with a floppy emu or scsi2sd?
An ADB watchdog sounds doable, but doesn't strike me as very exciting. I agree a scheduled reboot thing would probably be better handled in software.
Regarding the IIgs, supporting more systems with the same hardware would definitely be cool. But from a practical standpoint, isn't there already a floppy emulator for the IIgs? The CFFA3000?
Those tetris company guys made me cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye, promise not to do any more tetris stuff.
WhiteFalcon - was that RJ11 request a vote for idea #3 or #4? Or something else entirely?
ADTPro: I'd seen that once before, but I think I don't understand the appeal of it. How would you envision using that on the Mac, to do something you couldn't already do with a floppy emu or scsi2sd?
An ADB watchdog sounds doable, but doesn't strike me as very exciting. I agree a scheduled reboot thing would probably be better handled in software.
Regarding the IIgs, supporting more systems with the same hardware would definitely be cool. But from a practical standpoint, isn't there already a floppy emulator for the IIgs? The CFFA3000?
Those tetris company guys made me cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye, promise not to do any more tetris stuff.
WhiteFalcon - was that RJ11 request a vote for idea #3 or #4? Or something else entirely?
1 - That would be nice
2 - diitto.
3 - These already exist and were a product sold in the G3/G4 days. It's basically a microcontroller converting protocols
4 - That seems a bit ridiculous, given how ADB keyboards grow on trees. Again though, it's just a microcontroller acting as a protocol converter.
5 - These exist in NuBus format. It's just a PCB with a resistor and an LED attached to each of the voltage rails. Some people called them the "Snooper" cards.
6 - Those existed. Back then you called your modem and it was a device attached in between the modem and the mac. A modern version is just a network interface that toggles the PSW line on the ADB. You would need something like Apple Remote Access however to make much use of it given how macs didn't have a console until the OS X era.
7 - That would be nice. This custom ROM stuff lately has been going quite well. Lots of new chances to make diskless machines.
8 - Just the CPU? No ram?
9 - That would be really nice. Even a standard composite output would be great.
10 - That's basically an Appletalk server. There would be a lot you would need to reverse engineer. Just get an LC pizza box and use that.
11 - I prefer badgers
What about some sort of scan converter for the Lisas? We already have a composite video output on the Lisa 1 and Lisa 2/5 machines but the refresh rate/resolution is so oddball I can't get ANYTHING to sync to it properly.
2 - diitto.
3 - These already exist and were a product sold in the G3/G4 days. It's basically a microcontroller converting protocols
4 - That seems a bit ridiculous, given how ADB keyboards grow on trees. Again though, it's just a microcontroller acting as a protocol converter.
5 - These exist in NuBus format. It's just a PCB with a resistor and an LED attached to each of the voltage rails. Some people called them the "Snooper" cards.
6 - Those existed. Back then you called your modem and it was a device attached in between the modem and the mac. A modern version is just a network interface that toggles the PSW line on the ADB. You would need something like Apple Remote Access however to make much use of it given how macs didn't have a console until the OS X era.
7 - That would be nice. This custom ROM stuff lately has been going quite well. Lots of new chances to make diskless machines.
8 - Just the CPU? No ram?
9 - That would be really nice. Even a standard composite output would be great.
10 - That's basically an Appletalk server. There would be a lot you would need to reverse engineer. Just get an LC pizza box and use that.
11 - I prefer badgers
What about some sort of scan converter for the Lisas? We already have a composite video output on the Lisa 1 and Lisa 2/5 machines but the refresh rate/resolution is so oddball I can't get ANYTHING to sync to it properly.
That'd make it easy to transfer stuff to Macs without a DB-19 port, like my Quadra. I have a SCSI CD-ROM but it doesn't play very nice. Very limited market though, I admit.
It's a vote for 4, but for it to allow, say, an ADB keyboard to be used on a 128k or Plus, as those keyboards are getting harder to find.
It's a vote for 4, but for it to allow, say, an ADB keyboard to be used on a 128k or Plus, as those keyboards are getting harder to find.
11.... Always 11.
8 and 9 also appeal to me!
8 and 9 also appeal to me!
#9 - Is this not what the Power R was for? Or were those not VGA? I actually have no clue. I just know I have a few of them I pulled out of systems. But the cables were cut off, so no clue what the connector looks like.
Can I vote for the right-angled HD20-only, no-screen board? I know it doesn't make a *whole* lot of sense, but it's what I want. Maybe the idea is totally dead and buried.
Hi,
Would it be possible to create a USB device that emulates the serial connections of a Mac Plus (or higher), so that it would work for serial devices and LocalTalk? See this thread for more information, basically I am trying to connect actual devices to an emulated mac using Mini vMac.
A SCSI to USB adapter would be great (the few on ebay seem to sell for $300+, ouch!)
But otherwise, would love option 3!
Would it be possible to create a USB device that emulates the serial connections of a Mac Plus (or higher), so that it would work for serial devices and LocalTalk? See this thread for more information, basically I am trying to connect actual devices to an emulated mac using Mini vMac.
A SCSI to USB adapter would be great (the few on ebay seem to sell for $300+, ouch!)
But otherwise, would love option 3!
Danda, you mean like the Keyspan adapters? Those do work under OS X.
The CFFA3000 emulates a ProDOS block device. It works fine in most cases, but for something that accesses the IWM directly (think self booting demos), the FloppyEmu comes in handy. Its such an edge case that it really isn't a priority though. I'd say less then 1% of IIgs software requires direct IWM access to work properly.
Have you ever considered making a standalone HD20 product? Something cheaper than floppy emu that has no screen or buttons. Just A DB-19 connector,a series of diagnostic LEDS, an sd slot, and maybe a header to connect a floppy emu…
Could you add the ability to floppy emu to measure voltages?
A rom kit for Classic II would be nice since it seems that the Logic board will accept 4mb total for rom...
Could you add the ability to floppy emu to measure voltages?
A rom kit for Classic II would be nice since it seems that the Logic board will accept 4mb total for rom...
I think 8 & 9 sound like the most fun, but I'm a compact Mac fan.
Seems like if your going to accelerate the 68000 chip and get video to the CRT, you'll have to have a video subsystem with its own timing of some kind anyway. I don't really know what I'm talking about, but if you're going to do that heavy lifting, adding a VGA out would be fairly trivial wouldn't it? Maybe SE/30 grayscale too.
Seems like if your going to accelerate the 68000 chip and get video to the CRT, you'll have to have a video subsystem with its own timing of some kind anyway. I don't really know what I'm talking about, but if you're going to do that heavy lifting, adding a VGA out would be fairly trivial wouldn't it? Maybe SE/30 grayscale too.
I would definitely get crazy about number 10. Would be great if you team up with dougg3 who has made a working prototype. And include TCP/IP
Steve,
I might be willing to donate my plus accelerator if it would help you to reverse engineer it...
I might be willing to donate my plus accelerator if it would help you to reverse engineer it...
Re: IIgs support for the FloppyEMU: there are quite a few devices out there that cover parts of the same territory. Here's a pretty comprehensive list. To really make the FloppyEMU the go-to device for IIgs users I'd hazard that you'd want to cover the following territory:
1: 800k "native" floppy emulation. (IE, using an 800k drive the "same way" a Mac does vs. SmartPort protocol. This is probably the area least-well-covered by the Apple II-focused solutions. Being able to do 800k images as if they were hosted by a SmartPort "Unidisk" drive would also be useful and would make the device attractive to IIe and IIc users as well.)
2: 140k floppy emulation. (There's a lot of Apple II software out there, mostly self-booters, that aren't ported to 800k format yet, so a IIgs with only access to 3.5 inch drives is at a disadvantage when it comes to accessing the entire library.)
3: SmartPort hard disk emulation. (IE, "HD-20 for Apple II's". There are a couple devices out there for that.)
It would be *really* nice to have a device that could handle at least two of these functions at once. (Pick two, any two. All three would be super, super awesome.) Since the existing FloppyEMU can't do HD-20 and floppy simultaneously I assume you'd have to modify the hardware to achieve that, however.
(PS: Regarding the CCFA 3000... it's nice, but availability is a problem and it costs a mint. *And* it requires a slot. Yes, not a problem for IIe and IIgs users, but a floppy-port based solution also works for the IIc.)
1: 800k "native" floppy emulation. (IE, using an 800k drive the "same way" a Mac does vs. SmartPort protocol. This is probably the area least-well-covered by the Apple II-focused solutions. Being able to do 800k images as if they were hosted by a SmartPort "Unidisk" drive would also be useful and would make the device attractive to IIe and IIc users as well.)
2: 140k floppy emulation. (There's a lot of Apple II software out there, mostly self-booters, that aren't ported to 800k format yet, so a IIgs with only access to 3.5 inch drives is at a disadvantage when it comes to accessing the entire library.)
3: SmartPort hard disk emulation. (IE, "HD-20 for Apple II's". There are a couple devices out there for that.)
It would be *really* nice to have a device that could handle at least two of these functions at once. (Pick two, any two. All three would be super, super awesome.) Since the existing FloppyEMU can't do HD-20 and floppy simultaneously I assume you'd have to modify the hardware to achieve that, however.
(PS: Regarding the CCFA 3000... it's nice, but availability is a problem and it costs a mint. *And* it requires a slot. Yes, not a problem for IIe and IIgs users, but a floppy-port based solution also works for the IIc.)
I could throw in my hat for number 8, but add the following.
Like a Dove Board - more RAM for a Mac 128/512.
Since it was never implemented for the Classic Mac, add a FPU to the classic 68K. I believe this was in some Amiga. From what I read in my 68K Books, you can add a FPU to the 68K. It would definitely speed up some things for the Mac classic series.
I would also love something like a Commodore PET's IEE488 parallel output for the Mac; where one can interface hardware to the Mac directly. It would be more like a GPIO on the Raspberry Pi, but on a Mac it would be great.
Like a Dove Board - more RAM for a Mac 128/512.
Since it was never implemented for the Classic Mac, add a FPU to the classic 68K. I believe this was in some Amiga. From what I read in my 68K Books, you can add a FPU to the 68K. It would definitely speed up some things for the Mac classic series.
I would also love something like a Commodore PET's IEE488 parallel output for the Mac; where one can interface hardware to the Mac directly. It would be more like a GPIO on the Raspberry Pi, but on a Mac it would be great.
Thanks for all the ideas. It's funny that opinions are all over the map - no clear favorites, although I think IIgs disk emulation got the most mentions, closely followed by a 68K accelerator and compact mac video out.
If you guys weren't aware, bbraun has some very promising video out stuff working on a Mac SE. It's a device that plugs into the SE PDS slot, and sends the frame buffer data over USB to an OS X Mac, where it's displayed in a window. Details are on mac68k.info.
To be honest I don't really know anything about the IIgs or the Apple II series, so I'd have to do a lot of reading to begin to understand Gorgonops' list, or the difference between ProDOS block device emulation and generic floppy emulation.
A 68K accelerator upgrade appeals more to my interests, but is probably far more complex than anything else on the list.
I also like Elfin's idea of a GPIO style port for interfacing to other arbitrary hardware. But I'm not sure what it would be used for really, or how many people would find it useful.
Unfortunately the Lisa community is probably too small to justify custom hardware for it. I'm still hoping that with the right knowledge, the Floppy Emu could be made compatible with the Lisa through only a firmware change. But I don't think I'd want to get into building Lisa-specific hardware.
The right-angle adapter for Floppy Emu is basically a dead idea, because the physical dimensions of the Mac case and the Emu board don't really work out. It would be possible to build a different version of the Emu board with a right angle built in, like how Uniserver modded his. But for something with fairly limited appeal it would be hard to justify the work involved to create and manufacture a "model B" revision board, requiring a separate type of case, and manufactured in quantities too small to get a good economy of scale. If you really want a vertical mount, it might be easier to use the Emu with extension cable, but replace the 3 foot cable with a 6 inch cable, and then mount the Emu board to the back of the Mac with a custom mount or even just velcro.
The idea of a headless HD20-only Emu has come up a few times. I take this as meaning "I wish it cost less", which I definitely appreciate. Removing the floppy firmware features wouldn't affect the cost, though, and eliminating the screen and buttons would only make a small difference in cost while forcing new stuff to be added to support firmware updates and error reporting. I've thought about doing a complete redesign of Floppy Emu using a different microcontroller and other manufacturing changes to help bring the cost down. That would be a huge time investment though, and it would require a big boost in sales of the redesigned model to make it worthwhile. But Emu sales have been slowly tapering off, as most people who want one already have one, which is why I'm here fishing for new ideas.
Even though it didn't get many mentions, I think I may tackle the keyboard adapter stuff next. Since it's something I find personally interesting, and I already know more or less what's needed to make it work.
If you guys weren't aware, bbraun has some very promising video out stuff working on a Mac SE. It's a device that plugs into the SE PDS slot, and sends the frame buffer data over USB to an OS X Mac, where it's displayed in a window. Details are on mac68k.info.
To be honest I don't really know anything about the IIgs or the Apple II series, so I'd have to do a lot of reading to begin to understand Gorgonops' list, or the difference between ProDOS block device emulation and generic floppy emulation.
A 68K accelerator upgrade appeals more to my interests, but is probably far more complex than anything else on the list.
I also like Elfin's idea of a GPIO style port for interfacing to other arbitrary hardware. But I'm not sure what it would be used for really, or how many people would find it useful.
Unfortunately the Lisa community is probably too small to justify custom hardware for it. I'm still hoping that with the right knowledge, the Floppy Emu could be made compatible with the Lisa through only a firmware change. But I don't think I'd want to get into building Lisa-specific hardware.
The right-angle adapter for Floppy Emu is basically a dead idea, because the physical dimensions of the Mac case and the Emu board don't really work out. It would be possible to build a different version of the Emu board with a right angle built in, like how Uniserver modded his. But for something with fairly limited appeal it would be hard to justify the work involved to create and manufacture a "model B" revision board, requiring a separate type of case, and manufactured in quantities too small to get a good economy of scale. If you really want a vertical mount, it might be easier to use the Emu with extension cable, but replace the 3 foot cable with a 6 inch cable, and then mount the Emu board to the back of the Mac with a custom mount or even just velcro.
The idea of a headless HD20-only Emu has come up a few times. I take this as meaning "I wish it cost less", which I definitely appreciate. Removing the floppy firmware features wouldn't affect the cost, though, and eliminating the screen and buttons would only make a small difference in cost while forcing new stuff to be added to support firmware updates and error reporting. I've thought about doing a complete redesign of Floppy Emu using a different microcontroller and other manufacturing changes to help bring the cost down. That would be a huge time investment though, and it would require a big boost in sales of the redesigned model to make it worthwhile. But Emu sales have been slowly tapering off, as most people who want one already have one, which is why I'm here fishing for new ideas.
Even though it didn't get many mentions, I think I may tackle the keyboard adapter stuff next. Since it's something I find personally interesting, and I already know more or less what's needed to make it work.
I didn't mean to be too obtuse or discouraging there. I think mostly what I was trying to get across is while just getting the Floppy Emu to work as a 3.5 inch drive for IIgs'es (which should require only very minimal hacking of what you already have) would indeed "add value" for it to really be a must-have peripheral for II emulation it should probably also handle at least one of the other two tasks... and to do those tasks you'll have to make it:
A: Support the "slow" data rate of the IWM, which isn't used on the Mac, and:
B: To do the hard disk/"UniDisk" emulation you'd need to add support for the "SmartPort" protocol, which is analogous to but not the same as the HD-20. (IE, it's a protocol for communicating with "smart" disk devices and uses the IWM essentially as a UART instead of the bits sent and received going directly to a drive read/write head.) This "smart" protocol was necessary for use with 3.5" disk drives on the IIc and IIe because their CPUs/buses were too slow to drive the IWM at the 2mhz necessary for "fast mode". (The "Unidisk" 3.5" drive has an embedded controller board with an MCU on it that ran the disk mechanism at "mac speeds" and buffered the data for the slower II interface.)
Luckily the second part should (hopefully) be relatively easy because a number of open-source implementations of smartport devices already exist. The gotchya with emulating old-fashioned 5 1/4" disk drives is that the function of the control lines is completely different than it is in smartport or 3.5" drive mode. (for the old 5.25" drives they act as raw stepper motor controls, none of that fancy control register stuff applies.) Again, though, open-source implementations exist, so... it's probably *mostly* a matter of porting to your hardware?
BMOW, I have a broken PowerKey I'd be happy to donate for Number 6. I suspect the relay is bad. I have a new one that I use on my IIci. It's a combo ADB cable & power switch. It adds soft-power for any Mac.
Maybe the software and hardware will give you some ideas on how to accomplish it.
Maybe the software and hardware will give you some ideas on how to accomplish it.
This one is the most interesting to me. I've been following dougg3's work in this area with interest.
In related news, my Floppy Emu arrived yesterday and my SE is now working again. I'm already sick of cramming things into 800K disk images.
I'll replace the SE's internal SCSI drive with an SCSI2SD once those are back in stock. With the fan replaced it should be pretty silent.
The two I would use most would be the magic turn-on peripheral (especially if it worked with all or nearly all Macs) and the adapter for modern keyboards and mice, in that order. At the moment all of my computers have working power buttons and/or keys and mice and keyboards, but not all computers are that fortunate.
I would like to see the accelerator personally. Would be more interesting to see if it can be done 100% FPGA, because those things can be clocked to some insane speeds.
Your SE is compatible with the Floppy Emu hard disk emulation (HD20 mode). Install the alternate firmware from http://www.bigmessowires.com/macintosh-floppy-emu/and you can have disk images up to 2 GB!In related news, my Floppy Emu arrived yesterday and my SE is now working again. I'm already sick of cramming things into 800K disk images.
Thanks. I think it's pretty simple. The power key just momentarily connects one of the ADB pins to ground. For Macs with a soft power supply, that makes them turn on. For the Power Key, I think it has its own internal circuit that sees the grounded ADB pin, and switches a 110V or 220V relay to energize the output where the computer is plugged in. The only thing I'm unclear about is how to accomplish soft power-off for a Mac that doesn't have a soft power supply. I can't recall - does the PowerKey require a system init or extension or anything?
The IIci has a soft power supply already, if I'm not mistaken, so why do you need a Power Key on it? Off the top of my head there weren't many ADB-equipped Macs that didn't have the soft power supply. Maybe just the SE and the LC series. Maybe the Classic?
bbraun or dougg3 worked on this awhile back, there is a pin on the VIA that is used to turn off the power management circuit.
he made an extension for the SE/30 to toggle poweroff on shutdown. So hooking that up to a D flop latch setup would flip off a relay and cut the machine off.
he made an extension for the SE/30 to toggle poweroff on shutdown. So hooking that up to a D flop latch setup would flip off a relay and cut the machine off.