Thread
MacOS 8.6 on "Sawtooth" G4
The date on my boot ROM is 8 August 2000 - definitely late in the producton run for a 400mhz model.
I'm ready to run ROM update 2.4 (3.2.4) using open firmware, but I have a question...
Can this process conceivably destroy my Mac - i.e. prevent it from booting at all, even into open firmware? The ROM being used is designed for the sawtooth, so I assume that (if it flashes at all) at worst I'll just end up with another ROM that cannot boot 8.6 but will still work with 9.0? If I cannot get 8.6 to work, I wouldn't care if I had to use a later ROM like 4.x just to get it running again.
I'm ready to run ROM update 2.4 (3.2.4) using open firmware, but I have a question...
Can this process conceivably destroy my Mac - i.e. prevent it from booting at all, even into open firmware? The ROM being used is designed for the sawtooth, so I assume that (if it flashes at all) at worst I'll just end up with another ROM that cannot boot 8.6 but will still work with 9.0? If I cannot get 8.6 to work, I wouldn't care if I had to use a later ROM like 4.x just to get it running again.
almeath,
The fact that your Sawtooth has boot rom v3.3.4 got me thinking last night about this very question, can trying to revert to an earlier version of the firmware make the mac completely unbootable.
This is what triggered my thinking. The earliest Sawtooth motherboards did not support dual CPUs. Later revised motherboards had an updated uni-north (Uni-N) chip that did support dual CPUs.
You can determine what revision Uni-N you have by opening Apple System Profiler in OS9. Go to the File menu and choose New Report. In the resulting dialog, click OK to open the report window. At the top of the report window, choose view as text file. Look at the Hardware Overview section and the last entry should display your Uni-N revision. Uni-N revision 7 or later means the motherboard does support dual CPUs.
Now, the question I have is did these newer motherboards have an upgraded boot rom and is that boot rom essential for the successful booting of any OS.
I don't think Apple ever shipped any dual CPU Sawtooths. Instead the first dual CPU G4 was the later Gigabit Ethernet model which had boot rom v3.3.1. However, we now know that your Sawtooth also shipped with boot rom v3.3.4. This makes me wonder whether the later Sawtooth models with the v3.3.x boot roms are the models with the motherboards that support dual CPUs. I also wonder whether there is something in this newer boot rom that is required to support the newer uninorth chip that may be missing from the older boot rom.
Stated another way, on the Sawtooths that have motherboards that support dual CPUs (which I am assuming has boot rom v3.3.x), is it safe to even try reverting to an earlier boot rom or do you run the risk of making the sawtooth completely unbootable.
Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to this question. My thinking was the same as yours, even if trying to flash back to 2.4 somehow doesn't work then you still have the option of trying to flash again using one of the newer 4.x firmware updates using the open firmware trick. But like you I wondered whether reverting back to 2.4 from 3.3.4 would prevent the Sawtooth from even booting into open firmware.
If I had to guess, I would say that reverting back to 2.4 probably won't make the Sawtooth unbootable but it may mess up the ability to use dual cpu upgrades. Also note that I don't think a mac becomes completely unbootable even in situations where the firmware has become so corrupted that the mac no longer boots. Or stated another way, even in situations where corrupt firmware makes the mac unbootable, it may still be repairable. In my first post above where I discuss the various firmware flashing utilities available, that is the situation some of the users found themselves in. For example, the pismo and sawtooth users could no longer boot their macs due to corrupted firmware. The pismo user obtained an Apple firmware flasher and the Sawtooth user obtained a Sonnet flasher that allows for the reflashing of firmware. The very existence of such utilities, especially the Apple utility which was on a bootable service cd and was designed to both test for corruption and flash firmware, seems to imply that even in situations where the firmware has become so corrupted it no longer allows the mac to boot, it is still possible to somehow reflash the firmware to repair the mac and restore bootability.
However, it still may be a gamble and for anyone who decides to risk it and try reverting to an older firmware who finds their Sawtooth unbootable (even into open firmware) there is still some good news. A quick search of ebay finds that going price for used Sawtooth motherboards is only $20 or less.
In the event a Sawtooth motherboard has to be replaced, one online mac parts dealer states the following:
"Version 1 and Version 2 logic boards are similar and must be replaced like for like. To differentiate boards, check the EEE code (the last three digits on the serial number bar code). The EEE code is HHQ, HHP, HJZ, HKD, or HL9 for Version 1 logic boards and HQT, J6M, or JVE for Version 2 logic boards.
Note: In some cases, an extra digit may be added to the end of the logic board's serial number. If none of the EEE codes listed above match the logic board you are attempting to identify, remove the last digit of the serial number and check these codes again."
Version 1 motherboard is Assembly Number 820-1093-A and is Apple Service Part number 661-2251.
Version 2 motherboard is Assembly Number 820-1094-A and is Apple Service Part number 661-2302.
What we need is for all Sawtooth owners who are running 8.6 to report what Uni-N revision their motherboard is as well as the boot rom version.
The fact that your Sawtooth has boot rom v3.3.4 got me thinking last night about this very question, can trying to revert to an earlier version of the firmware make the mac completely unbootable.
This is what triggered my thinking. The earliest Sawtooth motherboards did not support dual CPUs. Later revised motherboards had an updated uni-north (Uni-N) chip that did support dual CPUs.
You can determine what revision Uni-N you have by opening Apple System Profiler in OS9. Go to the File menu and choose New Report. In the resulting dialog, click OK to open the report window. At the top of the report window, choose view as text file. Look at the Hardware Overview section and the last entry should display your Uni-N revision. Uni-N revision 7 or later means the motherboard does support dual CPUs.
Now, the question I have is did these newer motherboards have an upgraded boot rom and is that boot rom essential for the successful booting of any OS.
I don't think Apple ever shipped any dual CPU Sawtooths. Instead the first dual CPU G4 was the later Gigabit Ethernet model which had boot rom v3.3.1. However, we now know that your Sawtooth also shipped with boot rom v3.3.4. This makes me wonder whether the later Sawtooth models with the v3.3.x boot roms are the models with the motherboards that support dual CPUs. I also wonder whether there is something in this newer boot rom that is required to support the newer uninorth chip that may be missing from the older boot rom.
Stated another way, on the Sawtooths that have motherboards that support dual CPUs (which I am assuming has boot rom v3.3.x), is it safe to even try reverting to an earlier boot rom or do you run the risk of making the sawtooth completely unbootable.
Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to this question. My thinking was the same as yours, even if trying to flash back to 2.4 somehow doesn't work then you still have the option of trying to flash again using one of the newer 4.x firmware updates using the open firmware trick. But like you I wondered whether reverting back to 2.4 from 3.3.4 would prevent the Sawtooth from even booting into open firmware.
If I had to guess, I would say that reverting back to 2.4 probably won't make the Sawtooth unbootable but it may mess up the ability to use dual cpu upgrades. Also note that I don't think a mac becomes completely unbootable even in situations where the firmware has become so corrupted that the mac no longer boots. Or stated another way, even in situations where corrupt firmware makes the mac unbootable, it may still be repairable. In my first post above where I discuss the various firmware flashing utilities available, that is the situation some of the users found themselves in. For example, the pismo and sawtooth users could no longer boot their macs due to corrupted firmware. The pismo user obtained an Apple firmware flasher and the Sawtooth user obtained a Sonnet flasher that allows for the reflashing of firmware. The very existence of such utilities, especially the Apple utility which was on a bootable service cd and was designed to both test for corruption and flash firmware, seems to imply that even in situations where the firmware has become so corrupted it no longer allows the mac to boot, it is still possible to somehow reflash the firmware to repair the mac and restore bootability.
However, it still may be a gamble and for anyone who decides to risk it and try reverting to an older firmware who finds their Sawtooth unbootable (even into open firmware) there is still some good news. A quick search of ebay finds that going price for used Sawtooth motherboards is only $20 or less.
In the event a Sawtooth motherboard has to be replaced, one online mac parts dealer states the following:
"Version 1 and Version 2 logic boards are similar and must be replaced like for like. To differentiate boards, check the EEE code (the last three digits on the serial number bar code). The EEE code is HHQ, HHP, HJZ, HKD, or HL9 for Version 1 logic boards and HQT, J6M, or JVE for Version 2 logic boards.
Note: In some cases, an extra digit may be added to the end of the logic board's serial number. If none of the EEE codes listed above match the logic board you are attempting to identify, remove the last digit of the serial number and check these codes again."
Version 1 motherboard is Assembly Number 820-1093-A and is Apple Service Part number 661-2251.
Version 2 motherboard is Assembly Number 820-1094-A and is Apple Service Part number 661-2302.
What we need is for all Sawtooth owners who are running 8.6 to report what Uni-N revision their motherboard is as well as the boot rom version.
almeath,
If you do decide to try the open firmware trick to flash using the older 2.4 firmware, you may want to first read the cubeowner forum post where Pareis describes his discovery. Here is the link:
http://www.cubeowner.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=13279&view=findpost&p=90808
Keep in mind that the script Pareis provides to automate the process is for users who have OSX installed (though I guess in theory it may be possible to write a OS 9 applescript version using his OSX script as a guide?). However, in the last post Pareis makes clear that you can do the same process without using his script by manually booting the firmware file which contains the flasher from the open firmware command prompt. Also keep in mind that Pareis is describing this process for Cube owners but he makes clear that it should work on any G4 that uses the OS 9 based firmware flashers as he himself shows by flashing his Sawtooth. However, if you do use the script he provides to automate the process, it is written for use on Cubes and would need to be edited when used with other G4 macs using the suggested changes he provides.
If you do decide to try the open firmware trick to flash using the older 2.4 firmware, you may want to first read the cubeowner forum post where Pareis describes his discovery. Here is the link:
http://www.cubeowner.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=13279&view=findpost&p=90808
Keep in mind that the script Pareis provides to automate the process is for users who have OSX installed (though I guess in theory it may be possible to write a OS 9 applescript version using his OSX script as a guide?). However, in the last post Pareis makes clear that you can do the same process without using his script by manually booting the firmware file which contains the flasher from the open firmware command prompt. Also keep in mind that Pareis is describing this process for Cube owners but he makes clear that it should work on any G4 that uses the OS 9 based firmware flashers as he himself shows by flashing his Sawtooth. However, if you do use the script he provides to automate the process, it is written for use on Cubes and would need to be edited when used with other G4 macs using the suggested changes he provides.
In response to another topic where a person asked how to differentiate Sawtooth motherboard versions, I decided to do some more investigation to find out exactly what is the difference between the 2 versions.
After doing some googling, it appears the only real difference between the 2 Sawtooth motherboard versions is whether they support dual CPUs. The earliest Sawtooths shipped with motherboards that used Uni-N revision 3 which did not support dual CPUs. These are the version 1 motherboards with Assembly Number 820-1093-A. Later Sawtooths shipped with motherboards that used Uni-N revision 7 that does support dual CPUs. These are the version 2 motherboards with Assembly Number 820-1094-A. The assembly number should be printed on the motherboard.
One other interesting way to differentiate between the Version 1 and Version 2 Sawtooth is to look at the Power Supply. Apparantly, the Sawtooth that used the Version 1 motherboard uses a 208 watt power supply while the one that uses the Version 2 motherboard has a 237 watt power supply.
After doing some googling, it appears the only real difference between the 2 Sawtooth motherboard versions is whether they support dual CPUs. The earliest Sawtooths shipped with motherboards that used Uni-N revision 3 which did not support dual CPUs. These are the version 1 motherboards with Assembly Number 820-1093-A. Later Sawtooths shipped with motherboards that used Uni-N revision 7 that does support dual CPUs. These are the version 2 motherboards with Assembly Number 820-1094-A. The assembly number should be printed on the motherboard.
One other interesting way to differentiate between the Version 1 and Version 2 Sawtooth is to look at the Power Supply. Apparantly, the Sawtooth that used the Version 1 motherboard uses a 208 watt power supply while the one that uses the Version 2 motherboard has a 237 watt power supply.
I'm currently trying to resolve the question of whether I actually have a gigabit ethernet G4, rather than an original sawtooth.
Here is what I have found:
(1) The label on the back of the machine:
Model # M5183
Serial: SG0480BGK5V
400mhz / 1MB cache / 64MB / 20GB HD / DVD ROM / 56k / 1000BT
Assembled in Singapore
According to MacTracker, M5183 is meant to be an original AGP sawtooth model.
(2) Power supply:
Part # 614-0112
Output: 338W
Model # DPS-338BB A REV:01
(3) HD
Manufactured Nov-2000
(4) Inside machine:
- label on metal base of case reads 805-2244 REV B
(5) Mainboard:
Serial: KD03903XUK8ZF
Numbers printed on board: 630T3296 / 630-3397
Also printed on board: 820-1153-A ©2000
(6) On processor:
The heatsink has a large bracket on top of it. Printed on the bracket is the word "DUAL"
So, do I have a Sawtooth, Gigabit ethernet, or weird hybrid? The model number on the case suggests a sawtooth, but perhaps the mainboard has been swapped out? Also, I was told that there was actually a rare variant of the gigabit ethernet model that came in a single processor 400mhz configuration. [?]
Here is what I have found:
(1) The label on the back of the machine:
Model # M5183
Serial: SG0480BGK5V
400mhz / 1MB cache / 64MB / 20GB HD / DVD ROM / 56k / 1000BT
Assembled in Singapore
According to MacTracker, M5183 is meant to be an original AGP sawtooth model.
(2) Power supply:
Part # 614-0112
Output: 338W
Model # DPS-338BB A REV:01
(3) HD
Manufactured Nov-2000
(4) Inside machine:
- label on metal base of case reads 805-2244 REV B
(5) Mainboard:
Serial: KD03903XUK8ZF
Numbers printed on board: 630T3296 / 630-3397
Also printed on board: 820-1153-A ©2000
(6) On processor:
The heatsink has a large bracket on top of it. Printed on the bracket is the word "DUAL"
So, do I have a Sawtooth, Gigabit ethernet, or weird hybrid? The model number on the case suggests a sawtooth, but perhaps the mainboard has been swapped out? Also, I was told that there was actually a rare variant of the gigabit ethernet model that came in a single processor 400mhz configuration. [?]
I'd say you have a Gigabit Ethernet G4/400.
And they're not exactly rare - it was the low cost, "no frills" version of the Gigabit G4, for people who couldn't afford/didn't need dual processors.
And they're not exactly rare - it was the low cost, "no frills" version of the Gigabit G4, for people who couldn't afford/didn't need dual processors.
Then I assume a mainboard swap took place. All this time I was going on the model # listed on the case.
On a side note, even the single CPU heatsink clips had DUAL on them.
I agree with LCGuy that what you have is a Gigabit Ethernet model (and not some weird hybrid).
I think that MacTracker is wrong about M5183 being the model number for the original sawtooth model. Instead, I think that M5183 is just the model number for the case or enclosure. Since the Gigabit Ethernet model uses the same case as the Sawtooth, this is probably what confused MacTracker. The best way to get the true model numbers is to go to this apple page.
In addition, if you go to this page and enter your serial number into the search box, it confirms that your G4 is in fact a Gigabit Ethernet G4 and not a Sawtooth.
I think that MacTracker is wrong about M5183 being the model number for the original sawtooth model. Instead, I think that M5183 is just the model number for the case or enclosure. Since the Gigabit Ethernet model uses the same case as the Sawtooth, this is probably what confused MacTracker. The best way to get the true model numbers is to go to this apple page.
In addition, if you go to this page and enter your serial number into the search box, it confirms that your G4 is in fact a Gigabit Ethernet G4 and not a Sawtooth.
As an aside, now that we know that almeath's G4 is really a Gigabit Ethernet model and not a Sawtooth, all of my speculation above about the effect of boot rom v3.3.x on a Sawtooth can probably be ignored. I am now leaning toward the belief that boot rom v3.3.x first appeared with the Gigabit Ethernet G4 and was not used on any Sawtooth. As I noted above, the Japanese site I found seems to indicate the last boot rom version used on the Sawtooth was v3.2.6. However, the site also seems to imply that only the boot roms up to v3.2.4 support 8.6 booting. I wonder if boot rom v3.2.6 is the firmware that came on the later Sawtooth motherboards that supported dual CPUs. Thus, it may still be an open question whether the presence of a dual CPU motherboard effects the ability to boot into 8.6 (as well as whether it is safe to try to reflash to an earlier firmware version).
Again, we still need all Sawtooth owners to report what Uni-N revision their motherboard is as well as the boot rom version.
Again, we still need all Sawtooth owners to report what Uni-N revision their motherboard is as well as the boot rom version.
almeath,
Even though we now know that you have a Gigabit Ethernet G4 that probably can't run 8.6, it would be nice if you would make the Sawtooth 8.6 system files available for those Sawtooth owners who would like to continue with this experiment. In fact, the Sawtooth 8.6 system files may be useful on other macs running 8.6. Since this was probably one of the last releases of 8.6 that Apple made, in theory it may contain bug fixes that they did not otherwise make available. Thus, anyone running the Sawtooth 8.6 system folder would in theory be running one of the most up-to-date versions of 8.6 available.
I would still be interested in seeing a detailed comparison between a retail 8.6 install and a Sawtooth 8.6 install to see exactly what was updated and what wasn't.
Even though we now know that you have a Gigabit Ethernet G4 that probably can't run 8.6, it would be nice if you would make the Sawtooth 8.6 system files available for those Sawtooth owners who would like to continue with this experiment. In fact, the Sawtooth 8.6 system files may be useful on other macs running 8.6. Since this was probably one of the last releases of 8.6 that Apple made, in theory it may contain bug fixes that they did not otherwise make available. Thus, anyone running the Sawtooth 8.6 system folder would in theory be running one of the most up-to-date versions of 8.6 available.
I would still be interested in seeing a detailed comparison between a retail 8.6 install and a Sawtooth 8.6 install to see exactly what was updated and what wasn't.
If anyone needs ROM 2.5.1 or an ISO image for an entire G4 system restore CD with Mac OS 8.6, please PM me and I will be happy to provide you with the links.
The ISO is about 380MB compressed in a ZIP file.
The ISO is about 380MB compressed in a ZIP file.
Did you get my PM? Did the stuff I sent you work/helped?
Thanks ealex79, I just replied to your PM.
We are referring to a hybrid system folder that was constructed using Mac OS 8.6 off an iMac restore CD and ROM 2.5.1.
I'm certain that it would have worked if I actually had a sawtooth and not a gigbit ethernet G4. As we now know, M5183 is most likely an identification number used for the cases of several G4 models, including both the sawtooth and gigabit ethernet models.
In any case, I'm going to go search for a second hand AGP G4 on eBay. This time I'll make sure I'm being sold a real sawtooth! [
] ]'>
Again, if anyone needs the ROM / system CD, just PM me.
We are referring to a hybrid system folder that was constructed using Mac OS 8.6 off an iMac restore CD and ROM 2.5.1.
I'm certain that it would have worked if I actually had a sawtooth and not a gigbit ethernet G4. As we now know, M5183 is most likely an identification number used for the cases of several G4 models, including both the sawtooth and gigabit ethernet models.
In any case, I'm going to go search for a second hand AGP G4 on eBay. This time I'll make sure I'm being sold a real sawtooth! [
] ]'>Again, if anyone needs the ROM / system CD, just PM me.
make sure it has an internal 6 pin FireWire port, then you know it is a Sawtooth. Oh, and the GBE models have a tall rough silver coloured heatsink on a chip behind the ethernet port while the Sawtooth does not.
I finally managed to obtain, from a second-hand dealer, a G4 sawtooth that boots up in 8.6. Yes, it is very fast. [] ]'>
To be safe I sent the dealer a copy of my boot CD, which they tested in the machine before sale.
It's an AGP system with boot rom 2.6f1 so I assume it is an early AGP model. The case looks identical to my Gigabit G4 except that the panel on the back has a blue & white wavy 3D pattern (I don't know what you call it). On the Gigabit the panel is a matte gray color. Otherwise, the configuration of plugs looks to be identical on the two units.
] ]'>To be safe I sent the dealer a copy of my boot CD, which they tested in the machine before sale.
It's an AGP system with boot rom 2.6f1 so I assume it is an early AGP model. The case looks identical to my Gigabit G4 except that the panel on the back has a blue & white wavy 3D pattern (I don't know what you call it). On the Gigabit the panel is a matte gray color. Otherwise, the configuration of plugs looks to be identical on the two units.
And 50 more megahertz was too costly to upgrade to?
I would not be surprised - remember, this stuff was expensive back then, and that wasn't helped one bit by the fact that Motorola was having a lot of trouble putting out fast G4s, hence why the G4 was stuck at 500 Mhz for the longest time - and we were lucky to even have that!
To the 500 Mhz G4 barrier:
Thats why the PPC 7450 was used in the 667 and 733 Mhz G4 DA.
An interesting note is that the lower price Digital Audio model include a PowerBook CPU called 7410 that can use half its cache as RAM and may be better at overclocking because it runs cooler ,which I didn't measure yet.The 7410/7400 can do some calculations faster than the 7450 at same speed but have no L2 cache on the chip but on the CPU module at lower clockrate.Dual GBE or DA owners can test this.The same off-chip caching concept was used in the Pentium II and the earlier Slot I pentium III(Katmai).
To the topic:
It may prove useful to have something like the Linux Flashrom program that can identify Flash ICs disable protection lines and read or write images.
My 2 New World Macintoshs have generic 1MB roms that I have identified, have the model numbers not at head.
Thats why the PPC 7450 was used in the 667 and 733 Mhz G4 DA.
An interesting note is that the lower price Digital Audio model include a PowerBook CPU called 7410 that can use half its cache as RAM and may be better at overclocking because it runs cooler ,which I didn't measure yet.The 7410/7400 can do some calculations faster than the 7450 at same speed but have no L2 cache on the chip but on the CPU module at lower clockrate.Dual GBE or DA owners can test this.The same off-chip caching concept was used in the Pentium II and the earlier Slot I pentium III(Katmai).
To the topic:
It may prove useful to have something like the Linux Flashrom program that can identify Flash ICs disable protection lines and read or write images.
My 2 New World Macintoshs have generic 1MB roms that I have identified, have the model numbers not at head.
I just burned the os 8.6 disk, put on my g4 ( i have my g4 upgraded to the latest firmware), reboot.. and worked!.. now i going to install it to my HD.
Thanks to almeath, I could test it for myself. Here is my story:
I tried to boot an existing 8.6 installation from my g3 b&w on the g4 sawtooth (it has the onboard firewire port) - but had no success. "trap not implemented" + bomb. ROM file was 1.6; changed the ROM file to something newer, originating from OS 9. again: no success - "trap not implemented". even with extensions off.
Once I had a Powerbook G4 1GHz, the last model booting OS 9.2.2; it had the same symptoms, until I got the right ROM file, which was definitely newer than anything you could get via updates. later I found a really new ROM file on a CD which came with an iMac and Panther. There is a classic environment "onboard" which has ROM version 10.2.1 and dates from April 2003...
Back to Sawtooth! Given this experience and plenty of information from the apple info sites regarding model bootability (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25114) it is as clear as can be: Sawtooth needs its own ROM file!
Thanks again to almeath - I got his file. and tried again. This time sadly I didn't even get the bomb... it stopped just with a grey screen. I couldn't believe it, swapped graphic cards (different Rage128 Versions, even PCI) - still no success.
Regarding all the Firmware flashing discussions above, I thought I should try to backflash to an earlier version. My Sawtooth got the newest Firmware available once a while ago. It has Boot Rom Version 4.2.8f1 built on 10/11/01 ! So, was 8.6 bootability disabled through firmware?
I remembered, I had tested a Newertech CPU Upgrade this summer in this machine, and perhaps you know, there are some firmware modifications necessary to boot this new 7448 PPCs. So I removed the firmware patches, but had still no success. There is some code in NVRam, which has to be activated to boot either OS 9 or X with this 7448 CPU. This CPU is not installed now, instead it's the original 400 MHz G4. so no 8.6 boot - d*** machine!
Wanting to give up, I had a last idea - what's about resetting this NVram? booted to open firmware, typed reset-nvram, then restarted - et voilà: happy mac with 8.6 big on screen! successful booting! Now I had my original 8.6 installation from g3 b&w running on my sawtooth with just this 2.5.1 ROM file!
WOW! thank you, almeath!
conclusion: OS 8.6 booting is *not* deactivated via firmware update, so there is no need to backflash. It's the ROM file which has to be the right one. and zapping PRAM still helps sometimes...
I tried to boot an existing 8.6 installation from my g3 b&w on the g4 sawtooth (it has the onboard firewire port) - but had no success. "trap not implemented" + bomb. ROM file was 1.6; changed the ROM file to something newer, originating from OS 9. again: no success - "trap not implemented". even with extensions off.
Once I had a Powerbook G4 1GHz, the last model booting OS 9.2.2; it had the same symptoms, until I got the right ROM file, which was definitely newer than anything you could get via updates. later I found a really new ROM file on a CD which came with an iMac and Panther. There is a classic environment "onboard" which has ROM version 10.2.1 and dates from April 2003...
Back to Sawtooth! Given this experience and plenty of information from the apple info sites regarding model bootability (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25114) it is as clear as can be: Sawtooth needs its own ROM file!
Thanks again to almeath - I got his file. and tried again. This time sadly I didn't even get the bomb... it stopped just with a grey screen. I couldn't believe it, swapped graphic cards (different Rage128 Versions, even PCI) - still no success.
Regarding all the Firmware flashing discussions above, I thought I should try to backflash to an earlier version. My Sawtooth got the newest Firmware available once a while ago. It has Boot Rom Version 4.2.8f1 built on 10/11/01 ! So, was 8.6 bootability disabled through firmware?
I remembered, I had tested a Newertech CPU Upgrade this summer in this machine, and perhaps you know, there are some firmware modifications necessary to boot this new 7448 PPCs. So I removed the firmware patches, but had still no success. There is some code in NVRam, which has to be activated to boot either OS 9 or X with this 7448 CPU. This CPU is not installed now, instead it's the original 400 MHz G4. so no 8.6 boot - d*** machine!
Wanting to give up, I had a last idea - what's about resetting this NVram? booted to open firmware, typed reset-nvram, then restarted - et voilà: happy mac with 8.6 big on screen! successful booting! Now I had my original 8.6 installation from g3 b&w running on my sawtooth with just this 2.5.1 ROM file!
WOW!
thank you, almeath!conclusion: OS 8.6 booting is *not* deactivated via firmware update, so there is no need to backflash. It's the ROM file which has to be the right one. and zapping PRAM still helps sometimes...
Another sawtooth - this one boots it too:
http://www.danamania.com/tmp/86.png
I think my 8.6 install CD is the one that originally came from my sis, years ago, so the disc I installed 8.6 from is the exact original CD it originally came with.
Dana
http://www.danamania.com/tmp/86.png
I think my 8.6 install CD is the one that originally came from my sis, years ago, so the disc I installed 8.6 from is the exact original CD it originally came with.
Dana
Has anyone done a same-machine speed comparison with 9.x.x?
Well I finally tried booting my Sawtooth in 8.6 using Almeath's file which I burned to CD. Since my sawtooth had a bootrom of 4.2.8f1, I assumed that 8.6 booting was no longer possible. However, after reading isokrates post about resetting the nvram, I thought I would give it a try.
First, a little history about my 400mhz sawtooth. I got it used without a hard drive and no install cd. Thus, I don't know if was one of the early 8.6 sawtooths. I put in a hard drive and installed 9.2.2. The firmware had already been updated to 4.2.8f1. It had not been used for quite some time and the pram battery was dead which I replaced.
Now on to my 8.6 boot tests. Before trying the nvram reset, I tried booting using the 8.6 install cd. The 9.2.2 Startup Disk Control Panel seemed to recognize the 8.6 cd as a valid system and when I restarted it did in fact start up under 8.6. I then got 2 messages. The first message stated that full usb support would not be available. I think this message is to be expected given that the 8.6 system on the install cd is not a full install. The next message stated that a desktop folder could not be created and that I should unlock the disk. When I clicked OK, the mac rebooted and I again started up in 8.6 and got the same messages. Since it was clear that I was stuck in a loop, I ejected the 8.6 cd and let the sawtooth boot into 9.2.2 using the hard drive. I am assuming that I did something wrong when I burned almeath's file to cd. Has anyone else tried booting using this file after burning it to cd?
I definitely wanted to confirm that it could boot into 8.6 so I thought I would try using the install cd to install 8.6 on an external scsi hard drive I have. When I pulled it out, I discovered it already had a retail 8.6 install already on it. I didn't want to erase this install, so instead of doing a new full install, I just copied over the special sawtooth mac os rom file from the sawtooth install cd and to play it safe the updated Startup Disk control panel as well. I then went into the 9.2.2 startup disk control panel and chose the external 8.6 hard drive and rebooted. The sawtooth then successfully booted into 8.6.
My conclusion: I think isokrates is correct. There must be something in the pram/nvram that prevents booting into 8.6. In my case I didn't even have to reset the nvram. The dead pram battery that I had would definitely have the same effect as resetting the pram but I don't know what effect it has on nvram. Thus, I am leaning to the theory that whatever was preventing 8.6 booting was probably in pram rather than nvram.
I didn't do any benchmarking before I removed the external hard drive, but 8.6 did feel slightly faster than 9.2.2. Eventually I may install a second internal hard drive for a 8.6 install.
First, a little history about my 400mhz sawtooth. I got it used without a hard drive and no install cd. Thus, I don't know if was one of the early 8.6 sawtooths. I put in a hard drive and installed 9.2.2. The firmware had already been updated to 4.2.8f1. It had not been used for quite some time and the pram battery was dead which I replaced.
Now on to my 8.6 boot tests. Before trying the nvram reset, I tried booting using the 8.6 install cd. The 9.2.2 Startup Disk Control Panel seemed to recognize the 8.6 cd as a valid system and when I restarted it did in fact start up under 8.6. I then got 2 messages. The first message stated that full usb support would not be available. I think this message is to be expected given that the 8.6 system on the install cd is not a full install. The next message stated that a desktop folder could not be created and that I should unlock the disk. When I clicked OK, the mac rebooted and I again started up in 8.6 and got the same messages. Since it was clear that I was stuck in a loop, I ejected the 8.6 cd and let the sawtooth boot into 9.2.2 using the hard drive. I am assuming that I did something wrong when I burned almeath's file to cd. Has anyone else tried booting using this file after burning it to cd?
I definitely wanted to confirm that it could boot into 8.6 so I thought I would try using the install cd to install 8.6 on an external scsi hard drive I have. When I pulled it out, I discovered it already had a retail 8.6 install already on it. I didn't want to erase this install, so instead of doing a new full install, I just copied over the special sawtooth mac os rom file from the sawtooth install cd and to play it safe the updated Startup Disk control panel as well. I then went into the 9.2.2 startup disk control panel and chose the external 8.6 hard drive and rebooted. The sawtooth then successfully booted into 8.6.
My conclusion: I think isokrates is correct. There must be something in the pram/nvram that prevents booting into 8.6. In my case I didn't even have to reset the nvram. The dead pram battery that I had would definitely have the same effect as resetting the pram but I don't know what effect it has on nvram. Thus, I am leaning to the theory that whatever was preventing 8.6 booting was probably in pram rather than nvram.
I didn't do any benchmarking before I removed the external hard drive, but 8.6 did feel slightly faster than 9.2.2. Eventually I may install a second internal hard drive for a 8.6 install.
Hi all, please anybody could share the Mac OS ROM 2.5.1 or the os 8.6 for my Sawtooh? I have 8.5 original, but it wont run 
thanks in advance.
thanks in advance.
book123, I have sent you a link.
If anyone else needs these files, send me a PM and I will give you the link.
If anyone else needs these files, send me a PM and I will give you the link.
Hi All, as one can plainly see, I'm new to this forum, but not new to the mac. Been a beta tester for many years, Virtual Wings Pro, Fly! II, A-10 Attack, Quicken 3, Falcon 4, etc., just to name a few.
Just recently, my wife picked up a mint Sawtooth G4 500 (AGP) fm MIT, and now I have something to play on since OSX had taken over our house. Got most of my ancient sw stored on a beige G3/333, as well as zips & CDs & DVDs.
Now that the sawtooth is cleaned up, dusted off and rocking pretty solid w/ 9.1, I would like to add a 2nd drive w/ 8.6. I have several mac systems disc, but none that will boot the G4 (AGP), can someone find it in their hearts to help a brother out
From reading thru this thread, and google non stop, I cannot find the 2.5.1 ROM. If anyone can be of help, who has gotten the Sawtooth to boot into 8.6, please help me out? If you have a working sys ƒ, this would be ideal ... Maybe I could burn a few beta CDs, or other hard to find programs in my inventory. Just a thought. Please help? Please contact me?
I'm hoping to pull all my old mac games & simulations out of retirement. They have been boxed up in the original boxes for years.
Just recently, my wife picked up a mint Sawtooth G4 500 (AGP) fm MIT, and now I have something to play on since OSX had taken over our house. Got most of my ancient sw stored on a beige G3/333, as well as zips & CDs & DVDs.
Now that the sawtooth is cleaned up, dusted off and rocking pretty solid w/ 9.1, I would like to add a 2nd drive w/ 8.6. I have several mac systems disc, but none that will boot the G4 (AGP), can someone find it in their hearts to help a brother out
From reading thru this thread, and google non stop, I cannot find the 2.5.1 ROM. If anyone can be of help, who has gotten the Sawtooth to boot into 8.6, please help me out? If you have a working sys ƒ, this would be ideal ... Maybe I could burn a few beta CDs, or other hard to find programs in my inventory. Just a thought. Please help? Please contact me?
I'm hoping to pull all my old mac games & simulations out of retirement. They have been boxed up in the original boxes for years.
Just an update.
I replaced the original 400mhz cpu in my Sawtooth with a OWC 1.5ghz G4 upgrade (that I downclocked to 1.4ghz). Now it won't let me boot into 8.6 anymore. When I am booted into 9.2.2 and go into the startup disk control panel and choose 8.6 and restart, all I get is a white screen. At that point, the only way to get back to 9.2.2 is to use one of those emergency key sequences at startup that forces the mac to boot from a different volume than the chosen startup volume.
I replaced the original 400mhz cpu in my Sawtooth with a OWC 1.5ghz G4 upgrade (that I downclocked to 1.4ghz). Now it won't let me boot into 8.6 anymore. When I am booted into 9.2.2 and go into the startup disk control panel and choose 8.6 and restart, all I get is a white screen. At that point, the only way to get back to 9.2.2 is to use one of those emergency key sequences at startup that forces the mac to boot from a different volume than the chosen startup volume.
Desperately in search of Mac OS ROM 2.5.1 to get 8.6 running on a PowerMac G4 SawTooth. I have scoured the abandonware archives and used my status as Apple Certified tech to check every currently relevent diagnostic download, I can not find this f@#$'n file anywhere.
I have some old data to access with compressed resource-forks and thought I'd build up the ultimate 8.6 machine... got a Sawtooth, ATX PS, QuickSilver 933 processor... figure I'll hack off the 2nd IDE bus and drop in a PCI ATA-100 card. I think I've figured out the problem everybody else had when they tried to run 133 FSB on this board, so I figure close to 1GHz and a gig of ram should make for a pretty sweet OS8 machine.
Anyway, this file is holding me up... Somebody help!
Thanks
-kh
I have some old data to access with compressed resource-forks and thought I'd build up the ultimate 8.6 machine... got a Sawtooth, ATX PS, QuickSilver 933 processor... figure I'll hack off the 2nd IDE bus and drop in a PCI ATA-100 card. I think I've figured out the problem everybody else had when they tried to run 133 FSB on this board, so I figure close to 1GHz and a gig of ram should make for a pretty sweet OS8 machine.
Anyway, this file is holding me up... Somebody help!
Thanks
-kh
I still have the 2.5.1 ROM if anyone needs it - just send me a PM.