Thread
Outrageous
Ah semantics. Of course we are dealing with libel here and not slander. Thank you for taking us to task for the proper use of the English language. Ultimately we are discussing the application of defamation in this instance.
Eventually this thread will die out as they all do. However, it seems the root of this debate must ultimately be addressed to yield satisfactory retirement. Ergo: will the thread be reinstated? If not, what rules will govern future such threads, or will such threads be prohibited? In particular, if I post a thread concerning a linked eBay auction, what, if any comments will I be able to make.
Once that determination is made, this thread will be of little concern. As istar1018 pointed out,
Clearly this thread is walking a fine line with respect to the policies of the forum. However, we have some leeway here since ~tl (Sys-Ops Commander) requests:
The result of that inquiry will at last put the matter behind us, for better or for worse. In the end, as equill points out, this thread is moot since we are all subject to the benevolence of the owners behind this forum both for maintaining and leading this community. Certainly they are within their rights to do anything they want, including not making, or posting a decision about the removed thread, or even remove this thread, which only seeks answers and understanding. I for one am grateful for this site and the people who make it possible. But, I would rather not have to wonder as to my limitations or timing for posting future such threads – threads which I believe this one demonstrates have a useful place within this community.
Semantics is one of the concerns of law, so I make no apology for pointing out the difference between slander and libel, their contexts, and that 'defamation' cannot affect a reputation that does not exist or is already at its nadir. Beyond that, to fear consequences of the expression of opinions in the original thread—opinions often supported by direct reference to the examples that gave rise to the opinions—is to succumb to the 'chilling' effect cited in the Wiki article to which you referred.
de
I agree that 68KMLA needs to delineate a clear policy in this regard. Coping with sharks on eBay is an important dimension of buying 68K Macs these days -- no matter if you're someone who likes messing around with the machines, or trying to get 'pristine' examples for your collection, or both, questions of authenticity, relative value, and the like need to be aired.
Sellers on eBay who are misrepresenting (through ignorance, greed, or both) what they've got is a valid topic. One of the main reasons I did the research for my site was to provide information that would help people trying to unravel some of the mish-mash that goes up for sale on eBay, after some bad experiences myself.
I mean, an original Macintosh, with all the packaging, manuals, and correct disks with part numbers that match the production date of the hardware, is worth whatever price two people can agree on. Depending on condition and the completeness of the package, it could be quite a lot. But buying up the components of such a package and then selling it as a whole is a much trickier proposition. If you've got a September 1984 machine with May 1984 disks in an April 1985 box, it's not as valuable as a complete package from any one of those periods (IMHO). We should be able to discuss it when sellers step over the line and misrepresent something like this.
Sellers on eBay who are misrepresenting (through ignorance, greed, or both) what they've got is a valid topic. One of the main reasons I did the research for my site was to provide information that would help people trying to unravel some of the mish-mash that goes up for sale on eBay, after some bad experiences myself.
I mean, an original Macintosh, with all the packaging, manuals, and correct disks with part numbers that match the production date of the hardware, is worth whatever price two people can agree on. Depending on condition and the completeness of the package, it could be quite a lot. But buying up the components of such a package and then selling it as a whole is a much trickier proposition. If you've got a September 1984 machine with May 1984 disks in an April 1985 box, it's not as valuable as a complete package from any one of those periods (IMHO). We should be able to discuss it when sellers step over the line and misrepresent something like this.
Ooh, so you, good sir, are the author of that fine site! I've had it in my bookmarks for a while now. Very nice work indeed.
Cheers!
Rick
Yet another highly respected and honorable member of 68kMLA chimes in with pearls of wisdom for us all. Thank you, Rasmus.
Perhaps a good idea would be to create a simple price guide for old Macs - let people know what they SHOULD be paying, either in wiki or PDF form, or as a sticky forum post. That way, people can then tell that most of the stuff on eBay being sold by these certain sellers are just overpriced.
Hey now, that's a good idea. I remember one of the reasons I used to go to LEM and Everymac was to check on their prices for used Macs. I bet our group of enthusiasts could do a good job of tracking when something becomes collectible rather than just old.
I see our eBay seller (who shall remain nameless) is justifying his prices by stating that most (4 out of 5) Macs he buys through eBay are damaged in shipping, therefore his price is appropriate for undamaged systems. I've had several compacts shipped and certainly not had 80% of them damaged; there must be some awful packing going on nowadays 
I think part of the point of the removal of the thread is just not insulting somebody outright because of their pricing policies.
It's one thing to simply say "I think this is expensive" -- most of us do it all the time. It's an entirely different thing to say "I think this person is stupid because of the pricing."
Creating a pricing guide is a little bit of a misguided action, I believe, purely because the value of older items that aren't sold at retail (where pricing is often set by the manufacturer) really depends exactly upon the amount of money the buyer and the seller agree it is worth.
If I as a buyer agree with a seller that a Mac LC II with a yellowed case is worth $400, then I don't think that it's within anybody's rights to insult either myself or the buyer.
It's one thing to simply say "I think this is expensive" -- most of us do it all the time. It's an entirely different thing to say "I think this person is stupid because of the pricing."
Creating a pricing guide is a little bit of a misguided action, I believe, purely because the value of older items that aren't sold at retail (where pricing is often set by the manufacturer) really depends exactly upon the amount of money the buyer and the seller agree it is worth.
If I as a buyer agree with a seller that a Mac LC II with a yellowed case is worth $400, then I don't think that it's within anybody's rights to insult either myself or the buyer.
Yes, but by this logic, price guides of any sort would not be necessary, as adequate pricing could be established by what the buyer and seller agree an item to be worth. It is useful for 'experts' in the field to come to a consensus and write down what they think an item is worth. Professional coin and stamp collecting organizations publish guides to rare and collectable stamps, along with suggested prices and values. These organizations do this because they are experts in the field, and do so to provide more information to buyers and sellers. This then, is a service, not a criticism. As 'experts' in vintage Macs, creating a guide like this would be very helpful to those considering purchasing or selling older Apple hardware.
Free markets only work when there is ample information being exchanged. Publishing this information in an organized way is a much better alternative to publishing information in response to specific auctions as they come up. Often, someone just getting into Macs will have no idea what an item is worth, and there isn't enough information available for them to make an informed decision, especially when there are unscrupulous sellers all over the 'Bay.
I think ultimately, this will create a positive effect for Mac dealers. I can imagine eBay listings evolving to cite our price guides - e.g. "This Apple [device] is estimated to be worth $XXX in used conditions. Bid now on this pristine example, complete with original documentation and packaging..." or something like that. Dealers will be able to set reasonable prices and move equipment, rather than set a high BIN price and wait for months and months...
What 68Kmla decides to do is entirely up to those responsible for such decisions. We as humble and grateful participants will of course abide by that decision. However, at least in the United States of America, the right to express one's opinion, even if it's insulting (as long as it is not defamatory in nature), is guaranteed by the constitution – not that I necessarily agree with that sort of behavior, or intend to express myself in that manner. Of course, Cory5412, you are entitled to think differently, but is does not change the constitutional guarantees. Certainly I agree a certain amount of civility should be exercised in any thread.
However, anyone who has ever expressed that, Bill Gates is evil, is just as guilty ... equally so, those who have said ATT sucks, the iPhone is dumb, Steve Jobs blows, or PC users are idiots. Perhaps these thoughts are all insulting, but it reflects more about the person conveying them than the person being insulted. Further if those are the rules of 68Kmla, they should be part of the official policies and uniformly enforced. If it is the intent to protect the feelings of all who may read this forum, then a great many threads will have to be removed.
In the end, if I personally feel it is "stupid" for someone to make a specific purchase, or charge a certain price, then I am well within my rights to say so. It happens everyday on WallStreet, analysts looking at a company's purchase of assets and rating their credit accordingly. Reporting that a company made a mistake in acquiring a particular company is just a more polite way of saying, it was a stupid decision and certainly carries a lot more negative consequences than the personal opinion of a random anonymous member on this forum. This post is a perfect example, as if making my point for me – how insulting, it should be removed from the internet. To aspire to a higher level of self-expression is certainly preferred, but censoring over the choice of words seems unfortunate. It is a far more cogent argument that there is some threat of liable underlying the removal of the thread, than simply thin skinned readers, but as I mentioned earlier, it's totally the owner's decision.
I disagree that trying to set a price guide is misguided. The entire collectable/antique business is based on exactly this, appraising items for their worth. I would disagree entirely that prices cannot be set for a wide range of items, nor that these old systems cannot be appraised for their general market value, regardless of what two people agree to purchase individual items for. We're talking about what a novice looking for guidance should expect to pay. In that regard, eBay is EXTREMELY helpful since individual systems can be tracked based on their condition and what actual auctions by "non-pros" are fetching (vs. Buy It Now pricing), which is how prices are similarly set in the collectable world. And just like in that world there are many wealthy persons who overpay and always will (and arguably, mostly because they are uneducated). I overpay for things everyday and I have friends tell me to my face that I was stupid to pay that much. Sometimes I agree, because I wanted or needed the thing at that moment, or simply did not want to put in the effort that my friends would. And who hasn't heard "Paying retail is for suckers" or similar phrase. There have been bestsellers written with these titles. Should I be insulted or perhaps buy the book and find out why the author thinks I am a sucker?
Right on istar1018!
Sorry. It is indeed a good idea, so how do we go about doing it rather than just talking about it? [
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