Thread
Power Mac 9500 startup woes
I got out the ole' Power Mac 9500 last evening and tried to start it up. No luck. Though the hard drive in it is fine and has OS 7.6 on it, it did not work. I got to the gray screen with the cursor, and that was it. I heard the chime too, of course. But no disk activity, no happy mac, no question mark floppy, even after 5 minutes of waiting. I tried unplugging and replugging some cables. I also tried zapping the PRAM. No good.
Finally, I decided to strip down the whole tower and take out the motherboard. Just on a lark, I got out my big baggie o' RAM and put two RAM SIMMs (or whatever they are) onto the board. One was a 32MB, the other, I don't know. Certainly not the same brand, likely not the same size.
I put everything back together and pressed the power. Bad news. I heard a bit of click, as if the power went on for about a second, but then failed. The green power light just blinked on then off. I tried a few more times-- nothing at all. I waited about 30 minutes and applied power again. This time, the Power Mac turned on, the green light and all, but no video. Just fans running and the green power light. No startup chime, even. I took out the two RAMs which I had added, and tried again. Same result.
Anyone know what's wrong? Is it dead? The last time I used this Mac was July, just a few months ago.
Finally, I decided to strip down the whole tower and take out the motherboard. Just on a lark, I got out my big baggie o' RAM and put two RAM SIMMs (or whatever they are) onto the board. One was a 32MB, the other, I don't know. Certainly not the same brand, likely not the same size.
I put everything back together and pressed the power. Bad news. I heard a bit of click, as if the power went on for about a second, but then failed. The green power light just blinked on then off. I tried a few more times-- nothing at all. I waited about 30 minutes and applied power again. This time, the Power Mac turned on, the green light and all, but no video. Just fans running and the green power light. No startup chime, even. I took out the two RAMs which I had added, and tried again. Same result.
Anyone know what's wrong? Is it dead? The last time I used this Mac was July, just a few months ago.
What a coincidence - I just put back together my 9500 yesterday, and got it up and running today.
I can tell you from experience that the 9500 is a real B**** when it comes to crap like this. I can begin to tell you how many times I've gone through what you're going through. Wish I had some advice, but mine is usually based on luck.
I can tell you from experience that the 9500 is a real B**** when it comes to crap like this. I can begin to tell you how many times I've gone through what you're going through. Wish I had some advice, but mine is usually based on luck.
I just gave up and got out the 8100/80 instead, thinking that I'd post here the next day (which I've done).
Maybe someone else has a clue. I wonder if putting in the mis-matched RAM was a bad idea.
Maybe someone else has a clue. I wonder if putting in the mis-matched RAM was a bad idea.
It probably wasn't a great idea but I don't think it would have done any permanent damage. Have you tried putting in one good (compatible) RAM chip and resetting PRAM and perhaps CUDA as well?
It already had enough good RAM chips in it, since I was able to boot it to OS 7.6 a few months ago. I assume that the CUDA reset is that small button on the motherboard? I pressed it at some point last evening, but don't remember when.
A handful of observations:
1. A 9500 is now old enough to have capacitor failure. Sorry, but it's just possible.
2. I acquired an 8600/300 a few years ago that exhibited the same symptoms on first boot, or non-boot if you like. Perseverance paid off, however, and it has not failed since despite intensive use. Prior to coming into my hands, it had been sitting on a shelf unused at a dealer for an unknown time - months, at least. I suspect that the problem must have been PRAM related, but who knows? The moral of the story is that something in the machine needed to be reawakened, and that took some fiddling.
3. Have you tried booting from a floppy or from a CD?
4. Are you absolutely sure your scsi settings are correct? The symptoms are consistent with "scsi voodoo."
1. A 9500 is now old enough to have capacitor failure. Sorry, but it's just possible.
2. I acquired an 8600/300 a few years ago that exhibited the same symptoms on first boot, or non-boot if you like. Perseverance paid off, however, and it has not failed since despite intensive use. Prior to coming into my hands, it had been sitting on a shelf unused at a dealer for an unknown time - months, at least. I suspect that the problem must have been PRAM related, but who knows? The moral of the story is that something in the machine needed to be reawakened, and that took some fiddling.
3. Have you tried booting from a floppy or from a CD?
4. Are you absolutely sure your scsi settings are correct? The symptoms are consistent with "scsi voodoo."
Yes. I put both a floppy and a CD ROM in, and it didn't acknowledge either one of them. This was when it was getting to the gray screen with cursor.
Now that I think about, and especially since beachycove said it, it DOES sound like SCSI issues. I recall having the exact same issue...and changing SCSI settings around, fixed it.
9500 startup problems... Now that isn't a surprise.
1. Check the PRAM battery voltage. While it's out, unplug the mains power cable, leave the Mac to rest for 20 minutes, and then hold down the CUDA for a minute. Reassemble the Mac with a reliable PRAM battery, and try again. If that fails, repeat the above, leaving the Mac without a PRAM battery overnight.
2. Check out 9500 pain at http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/. Moving cards, adding cards, changing CPU, changing RAM is always a headache. The 9500 is possibly the worst of the PCI PowerMac family, owing to case inaccessibility.
3. Check whether it is a SCSI problem by unplugging the cables from the logic board. You should be able to boot from floppy without SCSI devices present.
1. Check the PRAM battery voltage. While it's out, unplug the mains power cable, leave the Mac to rest for 20 minutes, and then hold down the CUDA for a minute. Reassemble the Mac with a reliable PRAM battery, and try again. If that fails, repeat the above, leaving the Mac without a PRAM battery overnight.
2. Check out 9500 pain at http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/. Moving cards, adding cards, changing CPU, changing RAM is always a headache. The 9500 is possibly the worst of the PCI PowerMac family, owing to case inaccessibility.
3. Check whether it is a SCSI problem by unplugging the cables from the logic board. You should be able to boot from floppy without SCSI devices present.
Indeed. Getting out the motherboard is a real pain. The plastic is also getting brittle. I've snapped off 3 plastic pieces so far. xx(
My 9500 had the whole back piece fall off because all the plastic holding it to the shell broke off. The 6 case screws are the only things holding the back on now.
Yeah, my 9500's case is pretty much trashed. :-/
Am I right in assuming, from the replies, that no one thinks that putting in the two RAM SIMMs affected the 9500's condition?
Probably not. BTW, the 9500 uses DIMMs not SIMMs. 
I'm old-skool. And no, I didn't think so, but thought I'd ask.
I don't think you mentioned the CPU card.
Given the symptoms, my guess would be a faulty/poorly installed CPU card. Try removing and reseating it. If that fails, unplug the power supply from the motherboard, pull the battery, press the CUDA button and let the thing sit for a while.
Make sure all your PCI cards are pulled except one video card.
Pull all DIMMs except one which you know is good.
SCSI problems usually manifest as a freeze at the grey screen, but one gets a good bong at startup.
It sounds like you're not even getting a bong. Which is what leads me to CPU card seating problems.
That connector for the CPU card is a pain.
Given the symptoms, my guess would be a faulty/poorly installed CPU card. Try removing and reseating it. If that fails, unplug the power supply from the motherboard, pull the battery, press the CUDA button and let the thing sit for a while.
Make sure all your PCI cards are pulled except one video card.
Pull all DIMMs except one which you know is good.
SCSI problems usually manifest as a freeze at the grey screen, but one gets a good bong at startup.
It sounds like you're not even getting a bong. Which is what leads me to CPU card seating problems.
That connector for the CPU card is a pain.
Yes, I had been getting the chime, but now I'm not. I'll check the CPU card seating, then.
As both trag and Charlieman have written, reset the MLB. Not a desultory random poke at the CUDA. The CUDA is the last thing to touch before putting the metal cover back on, with good battery (3.3V or more in circuit rather than in the hand). Its job is to provide a clean-slate inventory of the hardware to the system. Pulling the Mac completely apart will have gone most of the way towards reseting the MLB, but there is more to attend than that, in that your daughter card must be properly bottomed (which may take considerable force beyond the first stage) in its slot, as must a video card in its PCI slot. Every breakable/makeable connection along the top of the MLB must be attended carefully. SCSI power, data connection and termination must be scrupulously ensured. Your original RAM was almost certainly FPM if it worked, even if unpaired, and you must take care not to use EDO alone or mix EDO into an FPM installation, despite that EDO is FPM with pretensions (such as pipelining).
Then, having cleaned, polished, blown out, plugged, installed and rechecked everything in sight, and avoided snapping off as many of the snapdoodles as is humanly possible, install the PRAM battery. Wait 10-20sec, and then hold down the CUDA switch for 40-60sec. as your last act before recladding the box, plugging in externals and reconnecting to the mains. Use the soft-power switch on your Apple Design or whatever keyboard for startup. Note down the sequence of events (or non-events): chime, raster, Happy Mac, pointer, splash screen, march of the extensions, desktop. Record your success or the poop-out point so you can post whichever. Rots o' ruck.
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Then, having cleaned, polished, blown out, plugged, installed and rechecked everything in sight, and avoided snapping off as many of the snapdoodles as is humanly possible, install the PRAM battery. Wait 10-20sec, and then hold down the CUDA switch for 40-60sec. as your last act before recladding the box, plugging in externals and reconnecting to the mains. Use the soft-power switch on your Apple Design or whatever keyboard for startup. Note down the sequence of events (or non-events): chime, raster, Happy Mac, pointer, splash screen, march of the extensions, desktop. Record your success or the poop-out point so you can post whichever. Rots o' ruck.
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I tried taking out the battery, reseating the CPU card and everything else again, waiting, pressing the red button, and still nothing. Pressing the power button starts the fans running, hard drive spinning, and the green LED on, and that's it.
I have given up for now.
I have given up for now.
All my 9500 woes were caused by the G3 CPU card, I must have reseated it 15 times before the machine eventually booted.
I had a 9500 with exactly these symptoms, and nothing that I did (or that the previous owner, an electronics tinkerer and unix geek extraordinaire, did before me) would make that machine get past being able to set the fans and disks a-whirring. I swapped ram, washed logic board, and fiddled with scsi until the wee small hours of several weekends. In frustration, I ended up acquiring another 9500 and cannibalizing the original for parts.I tried taking out the battery, reseating the CPU card and everything else again, waiting, pressing the red button, and still nothing. Pressing the power button starts the fans running, hard drive spinning, and the green LED on, and that's it.
I have given up for now.
At the time, I wanted a 9500 for an AppleShare IP server. Despite the "snappy" plastics, and the highly unintuitive case design, I rather liked the machine for being so wonderfully quiet. All of those machines, in my experience, were like that for some reason: the Quadra 800, 840av, the 8100, 8500 and 9500. The airflow must be good? I think relative silence one of the real must-haves in a machine.
My 9500 ran ASIP 6 for a goodly while. Now, having been replaced by an 8600/300 (with the side fan removed, which is unnecessary with the 604ev processor), the 9500 just sits and dozes.
Maybe I'll try my 2x604e 200MHz card in it with Debian 5, as it would not run stably in another (non-Kansas) 8600 in my possession. You never know ... maybe that 9500 would do the trick!
Did you say you got a G3 card in the machine. That takes a peice of software to run and if the HD is messed up nothings going to happen. Put the 604 cpu back in try to boot from a OS cd. You should make shure the Dimms are the same voltage. Not all 168 pin dimms are the same.
Software for processor cards in PCI power macs is not *required* since it replaces the original processor. It will run just fine, except Apple System Profiler may not display the correct speed or processor type.
No. My machine, as far as I know, has the stock 604 @ 200 MHz processor card.
as far as you know.
Have you bothered to replace the CPU card with another 604/e/ev to see if it's the CPU Card?
I have a spare daughter card that if you want to pay shipping, I will just GIVE it to you. Or for $7 I can ship you a 366-400Mhz G3 (I think) which is a MACh Carrier G3 Zif. That I know works.
for another $5, I will also give you the software for the G3 (which I paid close to $20 for OS 9/OS X Software versions)
I also have another PM 9500 board iirc, so that may get you up and running as well. I will have to check around, but I should also have the power supply from the machine. That would be another thing to check. Make sure the PSU is giving the necessary power. Test it with a multimeter and see if you have any dead leads. If you do, it may be that the CPU is not getting enough power and that could be causing the issues.
Another thought is that when I worked on mine, I found that the video card should be closer to the CPU and I had more luck with mine.
I got rid of the tower and stuff (except the electronics) because of the back falling off.
Let me see what I have. I will try to post more of what I can remember.
That PM 9500 is one TRICKY beast. I pulled more hair out with one of those than even a PC that I have had issues with!
IMHO, the 9500 was the WORST machine I have ever seen apple release in a desktop. The 7200 was better!
No, because I don't have another CPU card. This 9500 came from fellow 68kmla'er wthww.
I have a 8500 with a G4 carrier ZIF..that if you boot from an external drive without the XLR software all I get is a grey screen. Restart several times it will boot up. But when you boot back to the 8500 drive nothing but grey screen. Ive had to swap out to a 604 card before to get it to straighten out. The preferances get messed up.
... if there's anyone still interested.
Last evening I got the 9500 out again after having given up working on it for a month. In the month since then, a mouse had crawled into the machine through the open expansion slots in the back and had left some cat food bits, urine, and "tea leaves" on the bottom floor and some of the drive bays. I cleaned out the worst of it, and the smell has diminished. Ugh. I basically took what was a fully-working Power Mac 9500 which I got for free, and somehow managed to completely hose it in one evening. But I'm still trying to get it fixed.
Reading over this topic again, there's one detail which I left out, and that was the state of the PRAM battery. Now, there is trouble in this situation because I can't remember all of the details of events, since the last time the Power Mac booted successfully to the desktop was July 2009, and the night when I seemed to have broken it was over a month ago by now.
Long story short, I can't remember if the PRAM battery was good or not back in July. I tested it with a volt meter last evening and it was flat. I tested the volt meter itself, so it is working. I unfortunately have a collection of about 5 or six 3.6 volt PRAM batteries, but they are all dead. I need to buy new ones. I remembered that the desktop G3 had a battery in it, so I pulled it out, tested it to be OK, and put it in the 9500. No change.
This could be from one of two reasons:
- the battery is low on charge. This has been noted by myself as the G3 tends to forget the date. It is the original battery which had recorded the manufacture date and hours of usage. I noted over 6 or so months ago that the G3 no longer remembers its manufacture date.
- I needed to perform additional voodoo after having inserted the battery-- either pressing the red button, leaving the battery in for awhile, or something similar.
Clearly, I need to obtain some new PRAM batteries and test those.
If the cause of the problem is not the PRAM battery, then the final problem I think is either:
a.) I managed to nuke the 200 MHz 604e CPU card
or
b.) I managed to nuke something on the mother board by putting in the two unknown DIMM sticks (as mentioned in the first post)
I have come to this conclusion due to the fact the 9500 started up with a chime and gray screen a month ago, and didn't go any further. When I opened the case to reseat the CPU card, foolishly add those two DIMM sticks, and do some other fiddling, that's when I couldn't even get a chime or video output.
Last evening I got the 9500 out again after having given up working on it for a month. In the month since then, a mouse had crawled into the machine through the open expansion slots in the back and had left some cat food bits, urine, and "tea leaves" on the bottom floor and some of the drive bays. I cleaned out the worst of it, and the smell has diminished. Ugh. I basically took what was a fully-working Power Mac 9500 which I got for free, and somehow managed to completely hose it in one evening. But I'm still trying to get it fixed.
Reading over this topic again, there's one detail which I left out, and that was the state of the PRAM battery. Now, there is trouble in this situation because I can't remember all of the details of events, since the last time the Power Mac booted successfully to the desktop was July 2009, and the night when I seemed to have broken it was over a month ago by now.
Long story short, I can't remember if the PRAM battery was good or not back in July. I tested it with a volt meter last evening and it was flat. I tested the volt meter itself, so it is working. I unfortunately have a collection of about 5 or six 3.6 volt PRAM batteries, but they are all dead. I need to buy new ones. I remembered that the desktop G3 had a battery in it, so I pulled it out, tested it to be OK, and put it in the 9500. No change.
This could be from one of two reasons:
- the battery is low on charge. This has been noted by myself as the G3 tends to forget the date. It is the original battery which had recorded the manufacture date and hours of usage. I noted over 6 or so months ago that the G3 no longer remembers its manufacture date.
- I needed to perform additional voodoo after having inserted the battery-- either pressing the red button, leaving the battery in for awhile, or something similar.
Clearly, I need to obtain some new PRAM batteries and test those.
If the cause of the problem is not the PRAM battery, then the final problem I think is either:
a.) I managed to nuke the 200 MHz 604e CPU card
or
b.) I managed to nuke something on the mother board by putting in the two unknown DIMM sticks (as mentioned in the first post)
I have come to this conclusion due to the fact the 9500 started up with a chime and gray screen a month ago, and didn't go any further. When I opened the case to reseat the CPU card, foolishly add those two DIMM sticks, and do some other fiddling, that's when I couldn't even get a chime or video output.
Lovely. I'm afraid that you will probably need to do a follow up job to clean up the mouse urine. The creature is likely to have fouled in some unusual places, so with the case open, shine a torch around and look for staining on the chassis. Fouling of the chassis is a minor problem (the steel may rust prematurely, but only on the surface), but any "splash back" may have gone on to adjacent switches or PCBs which could be damaged in the long run.
Have you thought about providing a snug, disposable mouse nest in your workshop or storage area so that if you do get unwelcome visitors, they'll be attracted to that rather than your Macs/car upholstery/random boxes of vulnerable junk?
I think that your analysis of the state of your G3 PRAM battery is about right. From the beige G3 onwards, many Macs with flat batteries boot fine; the network settings are often sufficient for the Mac to connect to the internet and to reset the internal date/time via NTP. TCP/IP and internal time are all that they need for most purposes. I ran an iMac G3 500MHz with flat PRAM battery for a couple of years without problems. I wouldn't expect a PCI PowerMac to be so forgiving.
It is improbable that incorrect DIMMs are the source of your boot problem. Different DIMM formats have a different key format, so without a lot of violence, it is impossible to insert DIMMs that will cause permanent damage. It may be possible to fit parity DIMMs in a way that upsets the PowerMac's CUDA/PMU. Installing a full power battery is the only way to start analysing the problem further -- and no Mac enthusiast can have too many PRAM batteries.
There are traps and such in the basement. Since I live in the country, mice are a constant problem.
However, you may be amused to hear this. Early this very morning, I was awoken by the sound of my cat romping around and bashing into things in my room. It must have been around 3-4 AM. Quite annoyed and sleepy, I turned on the light and squinted down at my cat. He squinted back up at me. I got out of bed and went over to him. He had caught a mouse and had been playing with it, throwing it around. It appeared to be dead. By the time I got out of bed later this morning to begin my day, the mouse was lying abandoned in another room, clearly dead.
When I come home this evening, I shall see what is left. The last time Rufus the cat caught an early morning mouse, he left the severed head on the floor in my room for my evening arrival. Lovely.
As for the Power Mac 9500, I believe that I did a suitable cleaning job. I did employ a flashlight as you suggested. I have no good PRAM batteries on hand, so once again, the Power Mac restoration project shall have to wait again. On Sunday, the machine was moved to my parents' house in town where I placed in the closet upstairs in my old bedroom. That house is suitably mouse-free, so the Power Mac 9500 will remain secure until I have time to work with it again.