Thread

Smallest (physical size) Machine to Run 7.6.1?

Smallest (physical size) Machine to Run 7.6.1? Hardware 49 posts Jul 23, 2010 — Dec 23, 2010

#1 Fri, 23 Jul 2010 - 17:27

I'm about to retire my S900 based frankenstein and move to a G4 MDD as my main machine. But there are still a few games I like to play which really work best in 7.6.1. I'm willing to keep an extra machine around to play them, but I'd like for it to be physically small. If there was a Mini which would run 7.6.1 that would be perfect, alas.

So, any thoughts on what is (or can be) smallest? I'm happy to do case cramming: i.e. take the guts out of a larger machine and cram them into a smaller case.

I was looking at the Power Wave from Power Computing because it has the PCI slots turned horizontal on a daughter card, which makes the logic board smaller. However, the PCI riser card for the thing is *tall*. Those crazy PCC engineers put the PCI master slot next to the CPU slot and then they had to make the PCI riser card really tall to avoid interfering with the CPU card. Anyone know with the PowerCenter/Tower/Center Pro are the same way?

I was hoping I could cram it into this case:

http://www.interloper.com/products/product-details.php?productid=51000029&cat=51#

But the funny riser on the Power Wave doesn't work with the NLX standard. Grrr.

I don't suppose anyone has ever made 7.6.1 run on a Beige G3? That would be ideal. Small ATX form factor. Uses ZIF CPUs. Etc.

Right now I'm investigating how compact a Umax C500/C600 can be. The PCC PowerBase probably also bears looking into, but in most cases, to get the detailed logic board physical information I need, I end up needing to actually buy a used machine (or at least logic board). That way lies madness.

#2 Fri, 23 Jul 2010 - 18:20

Smallest would be a Quadra 605.

Smallest PPC would be a Power Mac 7220 / Performa 4400.

Or, if you count smallest total footprint, including display, a TAM.

#3 Sat, 24 Jul 2010 - 04:56

If you consider a beige G3 to be small enough then a 7600(7500,7300) which uses the same case would do the trick. G3 cards are cheap. Even better, score a ZIF carrier and you can use any G3 ZIF, even a 1ghz.

#4 Sat, 24 Jul 2010 - 10:49

I'm happy to do case cramming: i.e. take the guts out of a larger machine and cram them into a smaller case.

So then, you're looking at motherboards and any associated risers, I guess. I gather that you also need/want PCI.

I nominate the 5500/6500 series logic boards then, with either a 1x or 2x PCI riser to suit, L2 G3 upgrade optional. Small footprint, small overall cubic, even with the associated wiring harness. I can just about see one of them fitting into a 2- or 3-up external 5.25" drive case, with drives and PS.

If you don't really need PCI, then: 630/640, 475/605, 610/660AV. Powermac 6100 adds PPC and optional G3.

Course, you could also go for a Powerbook if PCI is optional

#5 Mon, 26 Jul 2010 - 08:00

The Color Classic can run 7.6.1

#6 Mon, 26 Jul 2010 - 15:28

Any Pre-G3 Powerbook would do the trick.

#7 Mon, 26 Jul 2010 - 19:38

If you consider a beige G3 to be small enough then a 7600(7500,7300) which uses the same case would do the trick.

I'm pretty sure that the 7500 logic board is considerably larger than the Beige G3 logic board, even though they did fit in the same desktop case. The biggest issue with the G3 is that if one wants sound, one is locked into that huge tall I/O card right in the middle of the board. But I might be able to fabricate a low profile replacement for that. But the Beige G3 is moot as long as it doesn't run 7.6.1.

To the other respondents, yes, I'm aiming for PPC and PCI so most of the other suggestions, while fitting the (inadequate) information I initially provided, don't really fit the bill.

Ideally, I'd like a board on which I can fit an Acard 6280M, Radeon 7000 and a USB/Firewire/gig-enet card. The latter can be dispensed with if necessary, so two PCI slots is acceptable.

But I'd be willing to fall back to built-in SCSI and video if it will get me much smaller form factor.

So the pizza boxes are out, because they were just too slow and NuBus.

Looking at the logic boards though, there really wasn't anything especially compact back then. I'll need to look into the 6300/6400/6500 I guess. Didn't those machines have the slide in logic boards that pretty much require the original case in order to make the logic board connections? That's the main reason I hadn't considered them. Well, that and L2 CPU upgrades, but a fast 603e is probably good enough for what this machine will do.

Notebook as one person suggested is another possibility, but loses all of the PCI expandability. If it has external monitor capability though, that might fit the bill. The TAM is an interesting suggestion, but aren't those expensive?

I'm seriously tempted to redesign the PowerWave PCI Riser card and the CPU card to do what *I* want. But,while I'm pretty sure I could whip out a working PCI Riser, I'm not at all certain I could get the CPU to work. I would have to design my own ZIF Carrier (copy an existing design on my shaped board) and I don't even know if one can still get the ZIF sockets at an affordable price, and if one can, aren't they a BGA component. Getting those soldered down costs some dough.

#8 Mon, 26 Jul 2010 - 21:34

I'm pretty sure that the 7500 logic board is considerably larger than the Beige G3 logic board

It is.

the Beige G3 is moot as long as it doesn't run 7.6.1.

It doesn't.

6300/6400/6500 / pretty much require the original case in order to make the logic board connections?

No, just the wiring harness. You can put one in a Colour Classic with a lot of hackery, or a 630/6360 desktop case with less hackery. Those cases are smallish. Anything smaller would require (say) 2.5" IDE or CF boot drive, no floppy, no or slim optical, external or SFF PS, or other space saving tricks.

NB: IIRC, 6300 non existare - 6320 is the start of the series. Ignore that Road Apple; the 6360 is where they start to be not crap, and the 64/6500 boards are better.

They all have max 2 PCI slots. Although ... what bears investigating is the nature of the riser, and where the PCI controller lives. Seeing as the 1 slot and 2 slot risers are interchangeable between the 5xxx and 6xxx series logics, it's just about conceivable that a 3x riser could be fabbed.

USB/Firewire/gig-enet card.

There is such a thing? All on one card? I know of the Tempo Trio, which is USB/Firewire/ATA, but not what you describe.

I'd be willing to fall back to built-in SCSI and video if it will get me much smaller form factor.

Are any of the PowerComputing clones equipped with 3x PCI risers? I don't recall; however one of them might give you a smallish baseboard to work with, and, IIRC, some of them are slot-compatible with the mainstream Apple PCI machines CPUs and upgrades. Whether those two factors are present in the same machine is another question, but IIRC even the others will take the L2 upgrades.

TAM is an interesting suggestion, but aren't those expensive?

In good working condition, yes they are. Also: max two PCI, and that with a rare riser and extended back cover. I have a vague memory that they take the same risers as the x500, but I wouldn't stake cash monies on it without checking.

#9 Mon, 26 Jul 2010 - 22:13

A 6360 or 6400 motherboard in a Quadra 630-type case (you'd need to add a 3.3 volt regulator) would give you a machine which could have one PCI slot plus a comm slot 100 Mbps ethernet interface.

The same motherboard in another case should give you plenty of space for a PCI card riser which would give you the ability to have a Radeon and an Acard, then use the comm slot for the 100 Mbps.

How do you plan to get USB and FireWire working in 7.6.1?

#10 Mon, 26 Jul 2010 - 23:08

System7today should know if that's possible, if anyone does.

/eta/ Apparently, it is, partly:

DV Video - WorkingFireWire Mass Storage - Not Yet Working

I forgot about the comm slot; yes, that's one more useable slot on those boards. Those 100MB/s CSII NICs are not so easy to find though, IIRC.

Another space saver to consider, if you can spare a PCI slot for it, is one of those Sonnet ATA cards that mounts a 2.5" drive directly on the card.

#11 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 - 09:28

A 6360 or 6400 motherboard in a Quadra 630-type case (you'd need to add a 3.3 volt regulator) would give you a machine which could have one PCI slot plus a comm slot 100 Mbps ethernet interface.
The same motherboard in another case should give you plenty of space for a PCI card riser which would give you the ability to have a Radeon and an Acard, then use the comm slot for the 100 Mbps.

How do you plan to get USB and FireWire working in 7.6.1?

Just buy a 6360 then.

USB is difficult enough in 8.1, I'd imagine it's impossible in 7.6.1. FireWire though - it's actually a pretty old standard, dating from 1995. Apple sold a FireWire PCI card for a short period of time, and it might have early drivers that work in 7.6.1.

#12 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 - 18:22

and the 64/6500 boards are better.
They all have max 2 PCI slots. Although ... what bears investigating is the nature of the riser, and where the PCI controller lives. Seeing as the 1 slot and 2 slot risers are interchangeable between the 5xxx and 6xxx series logics, it's just about conceivable that a 3x riser could be fabbed.

Yeah. It depends on what Apple used for the PCI bridge and arbiter. On the x500 machines, the arbiter has lines for six PCI devices, even though most of those machines only have four on the board (3 slots + Grand Central).

USB/Firewire/gig-enet card.

Click to expand...

There is such a thing? All on one card? I know of the Tempo Trio, which is USB/Firewire/ATA, but not what you describe.

SIIG JU-2NG011

It was never marketed for the Mac. SIIG sold it for about $85. It is now discontinued but I managed to find two of them when they were down to ~$30. There were also unbranded cards (probably from the same factory) for a brief time for about $15. I'd guess the factory was just running out the stock of components (chips) and changed the silk screen for the PCB so it didn't have SIIG's name on it.

I haven't tested it out, but it *should* work and I think there's an item on XLR8yourmac.com saying it works. It's just a PCI-PCI bridge (makes one slot look like many) with standard chips behind it. The USB2 is NEC, the Firewire is TI and the ethernet is RealTek. All of which are well supported on the Mac. However, there is an Open Firmware bug in Apple machines with using PCI-PCI bridges in early PCI machines. For example, the X500 series won't let you nest/daisy-chain them although the PCI standard requires it. And I seem to remember that the Trio did not work in one of the 63xx or 64xx series machines until they developed an extension for it. The nesting bug can get nasty because some USB2.0 chips look like a PCI-PCI bridge with multiple USB hubs behind it. So one of those USB chips on a combo card creates a nesting situation. Which is why some combo cards have such issues on those older machines.

I'd be willing to fall back to built-in SCSI and video if it will get me much smaller form factor.

Click to expand...

Are any of the PowerComputing clones equipped with 3x PCI risers?

Most of them were. Well, many of them anyway. Certainly, the PowerWave and the PowerCenter Pro, IIRC. However, the PowerWave's riser card is very different from Apple's. You can't count on PCI riser cards being wired similarly.

#13 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 - 18:29

A 6360 or 6400 motherboard in a Quadra 630-type case (you'd need to add a 3.3 volt regulator) would give you a machine which could have one PCI slot plus a comm slot 100 Mbps ethernet interface.

I was hoping to get it a little more compact than a Q630, but that may be the best I can do. Is there a web page around that shows such a mod? If you don't already know one, I'll google it up.

The same motherboard in another case should give you plenty of space for a PCI card riser which would give you the ability to have a Radeon and an Acard, then use the comm slot for the 100 Mbps.
How do you plan to get USB and FireWire working in 7.6.1?

I'll reboot into 8.5 or 9.1 of course.

The USB and Firewire are mainly desired for file transfers and that's a large part of why they're dispensable. I'm not using external SCSI drives any more and I've become spoiled. External SCSI is *slow*. Unless I drag out the wide cables and install high end SCSI cards, which is another PCI slot. But slow is probably okay for the file sizes I'd need with OS 7.6.1, I guess.

#14 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 - 20:53

A 6360 or 6400 motherboard in a Quadra 630-type case (you'd need to add a 3.3 volt regulator)

Click to expand...

Is there a web page around that shows such a mod?

The Power Colour Classic pages or the CC FAQ should have it. The 55/6500 board creates its own 3.3V, and doesn't need an external regulator.

I was hoping to get it a little more compact than a Q630

With a wiring harness and a bit of creative re-stuffing it should be possible. Eyeballing that Mini NLX case you linked though, it looks roughly the same size. It also looks like it could accommodate one of these boards.

#15 Wed, 28 Jul 2010 - 09:52

So apparently there was a 6300, sold only in Asia.

Anyway:

Code:

Case    (inches) Height Width  Depth
------------------------------------
630-&gt;6360         4.3   12.6   16.5
NLX               3.5   11.0   13.5
Color Classic    14.5    9.9   12.6
------------------------------------

Seeing as these motherboards fit into a CC, which has a smaller footprint than the NLX case, it looks pretty doable, with surgery. That should also give you a rough idea of the minimum footprint for any other cases you might want to look at, as the "Takky" motherboards only just fit into the CC. Do you already have the case that you linked or is it just one candidate?

This should help: http://colourclassicfaq.com/mobo/takky.shtml#Q2.2.1

Here's a CC stuffed with a full 6500 chassis and 2x PCI riser. The images (click for larger) should help give you an idea of the fit.

#16 Wed, 28 Jul 2010 - 16:11

Seeing as these motherboards fit into a CC, which has a smaller footprint than the NLX case, it looks pretty doable, with surgery. That should also give you a rough idea of the minimum footprint for any other cases you might want to look at, as the "Takky" motherboards only just fit into the CC. Do you already have the case that you linked or is it just one candidate?

Ah, good point. Thanks. No, I don't have that case yet. I was considering it because I thought the PowerWave might fit into it with it's riser card. The NLX spec and Power Computing are pretty close in time, although I think the NLX spec. was a little later. But to some extent it was a codification of stuff folks were already doing, so I hoped Power Computing might have been following it. But not even close.

But the footprint of the CC is small. So that's good, although it might be more trouble to wire things up. The bad thing is that I have absolutely none of those machines on hand to examine.

#17 Wed, 28 Jul 2010 - 20:00

A 6360 or 6400 motherboard in a Quadra 630-type case (you'd need to add a 3.3 volt regulator) would give you a machine which could have one PCI slot plus a comm slot 100 Mbps ethernet interface.

Click to expand...

I was hoping to get it a little more compact than a Q630, but that may be the best I can do. Is there a web page around that shows such a mod? If you don't already know one, I'll google it up.

It's not very complicated. I found what I think is a 6360, 6400, or 5400 motherboard in a smashed machine in the trash a decade ago and made it work in a Quadra 630 case with this mod:

fifi_1.jpg.cd19ed7d4900d3f3cdcbd95ceb1d56e3.jpg

fifi_2.jpg.66121662c20edbe4ffad777440236811.jpg

fifi_3.jpg.d94756ac8cf593560d62a8c773e4a648.jpg

I broke the pin off which is 5 volts on the Quadra harness and 3.3 volts on the 6360 / 6400, then soldered an adjustable regulator in its place. The best way to adjust the voltage is with the machine running, so I did with the top covers removed from the Quadra 630 case. This particular machine has been doing NAT, DNS, and IPv6 routing continuously for the last six years, and I've only brought it out from under the house where it lives to replace the fan and swap the 10 Mbps comm slot card for a 100 Mbps card (since the cable modem is supposed to go up to 15 Mbps) and to swap that 1 Gbps Intel ethernet card you see in the picture for a cheesy four port Realtek-based switch-on-a-card so that I could connect more stuff without an external switch since everything has to fit in a plastic box under the house.

The regulator is an LM317 which can do up to 1.5 amps and is fed off of 5 volts. The variable resistor is a multiturn type so that it can be adjusted in little tiny bits, and the heat sink is something I found in some electronics in the trash. It's overkill, since it barely gets warm.

I hope this helps.

#18 Thu, 29 Jul 2010 - 11:24

I note that a 5500 board with a 1x PCI riser just turned up in the Trading Post for a reasonable cost.

#19 Thu, 29 Jul 2010 - 20:53

It's not very complicated. I found what I think is a 6360, 6400, or 5400 motherboard in a smashed machine in the trash a decade ago and made it work in a Quadra 630 case with this mod:
I broke the pin off which is 5 volts on the Quadra harness and 3.3 volts on the 6360 / 6400, then soldered an adjustable regulator in its place. The best way to adjust the voltage is with the machine running, so I did with the top covers removed from the Quadra 630 case.

The regulator is an LM317 which can do up to 1.5 amps and is fed off of 5 volts. The variable resistor is a multiturn type so that it can be adjusted in little tiny bits, and the heat sink is something I found in some electronics in the trash. It's overkill, since it barely gets warm.

I hope this helps.

Yes, Thank you. That's interesting.

Do you know the approximate dimensions of the board? I guess it's the same as a Q630 board? I have one of those I can measure.

The PowerWave board is 9" X 13", which means any case I use with it must be at least that big in two dimensions.

#20 Thu, 29 Jul 2010 - 22:08

Do you know the approximate dimensions of the board? I guess it's the same as a Q630 board? I have one of those I can measure.

Yes, the board is the same size as the Q630 board.

#21 Sun, 1 Aug 2010 - 11:55

I note also that there's a 630 for sale here, if you want to cannibalise the harness and PS or use the case as-is.

#22 Mon, 2 Aug 2010 - 10:11

The Tanzania motherboard/s as used in the 4400/7220 * are probably also worth investigating, as they support IDE drives, some have a 3x PCI riser, and they don't use a crazy wiring harness/edge connector setup. Some even have PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports. For CPU upgrades they take L2 cache slot G3s.

7220 case dimensions 5.43 H x 15.15 W x 17.4 D.

7220/4400 discussion thread

3562121485_fac7fb4d32_o.jpg.8321864db76599e670bf090b2b0d0e8b.jpg

the board is "LPX", not ATX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPX_%28form_factor%29

LPX 330 × 229NLX 254 × 228

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/case/formLPX-c.html

z_enlight_6310b.jpg.0d0f4d4e93072d187b2e35a7bf6c4db5.jpg

That sure looks a lot like the inside of a 7220 from my recollection.

NB:

• three PCI slots in 4400/160, two plus a Comm II slot in 4400/200

One wonders if the 3x riser would work in the /200 model. One also wonders if there's a compatible 5x riser, as going on the rear panel image, it sure looks like room was provided for one.

* Not to be confused with the 7200 which is just an upgrade-crippled main series PCI board.

#23 Mon, 2 Aug 2010 - 23:04

Thanks for continuing to think of ideas, Bunsen. The Q630 you mention is gone -- i.e. the seller mentions that he gave/sold the remains to a local fellow. I must check my email, because he may have mentioned who it was and I could check about the Q630.

The C600 he mentions was to me (I hope). I had assumed that he didn't ship it because I never received the PayPal invoice, which he mentioned in his last message, but now I see that he packed his postal receipts. So there may be a C600 in my future.

Yes, I looked at the 4400 specs as well. I'm not sure, but I think there was some specification reason why I ruled it out, but it could just have been fatigue.

I'm still leaning toward the PowerWave. I could (maybe) build a custom ZIF Carrier card for it, desolder the CPU socket and connect the ZIF Carrier by header pins, so that the Carrier would lie parallel to the board. I'd just copy PowerLogix's or NewerTech's design, so I wouldn't have to come up with anything complicated. That would get it out of the way of the PCI riser card and I could build that much, much lower. Of course, this would take it into the realm of a some-time-in-the-next-three-years project and probably cost three hundred dollars or more.

But it would be cool.

I bought the 5500 board you mentioned. We'll see what the 5500 and the C600 look like. They all use L2 slot upgrades, but a fast 603e may be plenty fast enough. But with the PowerWave I could install a 500MHz or 1GHz G3...

Except that Civilization with Civ_Fat_Hack (or whatever its called) doesn't seem to work with the PowerLogix 1GHz G3. I think I've used it with slower G3 upgrades.

#24 Wed, 4 Aug 2010 - 21:38

I received my Umax C600 yesterday. Interesting machine. First of all, it's a Tanzania based machine, so no need for me to look into the 4400, I think. I doubt that the 4400 is any more compact in the logic board than the C600. In fact, looking at the case photos Bunsen posted, I'd guess they have the same dimensions.

The C600 logic board is 13" X 9", which means it has exactly the same dimensions as the PowerWave. So the PowerWave is still in the lead for the small machine competition. However, that 5500 board is on its way.

Another interesting thing is the riser card. It has three PCI slots and a Comm (perhaps II) slot. They're all on the riser card leading me to wonder whether the Comm slot is a form of PCI slot? I thought it was an adapted serial port. I guess not.

The third interesting point is that motherboards just weren't all that compact back then. Sheesh. I really wish there was a Mini or even a Cube that would run 7.6.1. Sigh.

I also received a 7300 board I bought. I was hoping Apple had shrunk the size since they left off the video I/O but no such luck. It's something like 11" X 13", perhaps a smidgen more than 11".

I guess I could lay out an entire PowerSurge motherboard and steal all the components off of a 7300 board.

That would be a reliability nightmare trying to solder all those big chips and then figuring out which one isn't soldered properly.

But I could leave off the CURIO chip (SCSI, ethernet, serial ports), and the MESH SCSI chip, and possibly SWIM. I really just need Hammerhead, the two memory controllers, Bandit (PCI bridge), Grand Central (Interrupt controller and interface to sound chips), the sound chip and CUDA (ADB controller), plus a ZIF socket, PCI sockets, and either some memory sockets or soldered down memory. But I'm not sure I could realistically make it smaller than a PowerWave any way. Or enough smaller to fit in a smaller case.

#25 Thu, 5 Aug 2010 - 04:36

I really wish there was a Mini or even a Cube that would run 7.6.1. Sigh.

If you decide that you can do without PCI or accelerated video, or even PPC, the nearest thing to that would be an LC475 or Quadra 605 logic. I have seen someone stuff one of them into a SparcStation IPX, which is about the same footprint as a Mini.

At the moment it sounds as though the 55/6500 board is going to be your best bet. From memory they are roughly square, so going on previous research should be about 9" x 9". Good luck.

#26 Thu, 5 Aug 2010 - 17:47

If you decide that you can do without PCI or accelerated video, or even PPC, the nearest thing to that would be an LC475 or Quadra 605 logic. I have seen someone stuff one of them into a SparcStation IPX, which is about the same footprint as a Mini.

I don't think the performance would be acceptable. For that matter, I think some games of that era required a PPC. Some of the games, especially ones which were cheap ports from PC games, had a very narrow window of compatibility. Of course, since those windows lasted two or three years back then, it was wide enough for game sales.

At the moment it sounds as though the 55/6500 board is going to be your best bet. From memory they are roughly square, so going on previous research should be about 9" x 9". Good luck.

I received the 5500 board yesterday. I understand that the 5500 is Gazelle and the 4400 is Tanzania, but they sure look similar to me. The ROM chips are different but very close in numbering. Anyone have the Apple Hardware Developer Note for either or both machines? I can't find that useful stuff for legacy machines on Apple's *^&$%^&* website any more. They used to have a very nice page with all the machines listed over in the Developer section. I know I've been to that page in the last five years.

Anyway, the board is 8.25" X 8.75" if I desolder the edge connector off of the board, which I am inclined to do. It is a through-hole attachment, so I could then attach my own cables to the through-hole sites rather easily. Plus, I really don't need things like internal SCSI, nor the on-board IDE, if I'm going to install an Acard 6280 or 6880. The only thing I need out of that edge connector, which isn't brought out to the back of the board is maybe the video out, and then only if I can't figure out how to add three PCI slots instead of one.

The video is interesting with Rage II. I wonder if the later chip (Rage Pro?) which later revs. of the Beige G3 switched to could be soldered in it's place. Also wondering if the VRAM chips can be hacked to larger capacity.

But it's silly to do upgrades which will yield only marginal improvements. Sigh.

Anyway, anyone know of a pinout listing for that edge connector? For that matter, it looks like the video signals are also present in a little 22 pin socket next to the edge connector.

#27 Fri, 6 Aug 2010 - 15:28

desolder the edge connector off of the board / then attach my own cables to the through-hole sites

Not a bad idea. Do you have the pinout?

video out

There's a ready-made cable that provides mirrored video out for the 54/5500 and came standard with the 64/6500. I don't recall whether that plugs into a header on the logic board or downstream of the edge connector/wiring harness.

#28 Sun, 29 Aug 2010 - 03:54

Just to throw it out there--the Classic II can also run 7.6.1, and so can all PowerBooks except the 100.

#29 Wed, 1 Sep 2010 - 08:45

cable that provides mirrored video out for the 54/5500

I believe it's this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/150487160207 Looks like it

plugs into a header on the logic board

#30 Wed, 1 Sep 2010 - 18:46

Thank you, Benson. I picked one up on Ebay a couple of days ago at a similar price.

I'm still waiting on getting a 6500. Mike Richardson is going to fix me up, but he hasn't emailed in a while. Either he's busy with other stuff, or I need to send him a reminder. I couldn't find anyone in Austin with a 6500 to sell/spare. I tried Freecycle, Craig's List and the LEM Swaplist. The former got me nothing. The middle got me lots of spam. The latter got me several offers from outside Austin, despite specifying local. Mike is in Houston and thinks he can keep the shipping down to $25, so I decided to go with him.