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Firefox 4 on Tiger PPC

Firefox 4 on Tiger PPC PowerPC 63 posts Oct 16, 2010 — Mar 10, 2011
From the if-you-want-something-done-you-do-it-yourself department, as posted to the OS 9 list.

This is mostly off-topic, but since I know that many (like me) use Tiger

as our preferred version of OS X [when in OS X :-) ] because it runs Classic

apps, there had been discussion on the list on what to do when web browsers

start drying up for PowerPC and Tiger as they are now.

Mozilla has already announced that not only will Firefox 4 not run on Tiger,

it will also not be supported on PowerPC. Although there will come a time

when adding the hacks needed to get it to backbuild will no longer serve, that

day is still a long way off:

http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1074

Yes, this is Firefox 4.0b7pre "Minefield" running on my personal quad G5 with

10.4.11. It uses Mozilla's new Harfbuzz font shaper and part of Apple's

private CoreText framework secretly in Tiger that I reverse-engineered, and

no ATSUI. It also adds back the UI hacks from 3.6 for Tiger that were removed

for 4.0, and makes other changes to allow building. These changes are all

relatively straightforward to add and, like WaMCom was when 1.3 emerged without

OS 9 support, is overwhelmingly all Mozilla code still. It took less time than

I thought to do the legwork and make the tweaks, about a couple weeks.

Note that there are still some big challenges to come in Fx 4. Beta 7 final

activates JagerMonkey (which will run in TraceMonkey mode on PPC) and OpenGL,

and makes a lot of changes. I will pull source again when b7 comes out finally

and reapply all these changes to a new clean repo. If that works well, there

might be some public binaries for the adventurous to play with then. There will

be separate optimized builds for G3, G4 and G5 to wring as much performance

out of each CPU generation.

I have not decided if I will support Leopard PPC, but I will try to.

Making the jump from Firefox 3.6 to 4.0 is critical because Fx4 adds a

dramatically faster JS interpreter, OpenGL acceleration, improved HTML 5

support and improved CSS 3 support. Even if Fx4.1 dawns and I can't backport

it, we're at least at the point where we have next-generation browser support

and I can add high-priority new features to it separately like I do with

Classilla. Look at how long WaMCom lasted without anyone maintaining it.

This gives Tiger and PowerPC many more years of useful life.

By the way, Mozilla will almost certainly not accept my changes into the tree

since 10.4 is on their "tier WONTFIX" list now, so this will live as a

separate project and will get a Google Code proper repo for people to submit

code to (likely Mercurial since that is what Mozilla uses themselves). So this

PowerPC Tiger Firefox will not be called Firefox, and I'm soliciting names for

it. I have one in mind, but I want to see if someone comes up with something

better. (It has to be one no one is using -- I thought of "Tigerfox" but you

can see that's pretty much beaten to death. The one I have in mind is totally

novel. See if you can do better.)
First, WOW. Another very cool project. I'm running 10.5, but if the plug is pulled on PPC builds, I'll be out of luck.

Second, can you lend me some of your free time? ;) My own s/w projects are stagnated because I have too little of it. :p

Third, names. KaiserFox, PhyrePhauCs, Webtastic, Longboard (surfing on old school equipment...get it?). I'm sure someone will offer something more clever than those.

I do want to support Leopard, but none of my PPC machines run it and I don't want to set one up specially for that. I do have a solitary Intel Mac mini running Leopard that I use for development purposes, however, and I might test it under Rosetta (if it runs there, I would be surprised if it didn't run on a real PPC). Now that 10.7 is obviously in play, the end of Safari for 10.5 and therefore PowerPC is also clearly visible.

The PhyrePhauCs one took me a while to get :-p interesting idea though. Any others?

The compatibility portion I am most worried about is plugins, specifically Flash. That said, 10.1 looks like the last PPC Flash anyway, so it may all be a moot point soon.

That's great ClassicHasClass! :D I've been hoping someone would figure out how to do this. ;)

Can't wait for a binary release. It'd be nice to see how well WebM videos play on my G4 Tibook. (I hope well enough to watch stuff!)

A name huh? Let's see, Debian has IceWeasel... Mozilla has FireFox, hmm... How about, Air/Wind/Stone/something-Bengal?

There's also Pixie-Bob,Savannah, and the Toyger

Now StoneToyger, that sounds kinda cool. :D

Bengal. That could be a source of interesting variations.

I pulled more current source from them yesterday since they're down to a handful of blockers and I'll do a rebase when it gets final. I'd like to have a very, very, VERY slow debugging binary available with beta 7 so people can make sure it runs and prove it's for real.

FoxForce 9

Why not FireTiger?

Gives a nice allusion to Blake, or perhaps Spike Milligan if you're feeling silly.

Tyger, Tyger, burning bright,

Watch out! You'll set the jungle alight

@morrick and I were jawing on Twitter and I think we have a name (which as it turns out we both independently came to), but I'll hold that for the "test alpha."

Small frownie: OpenGL acceleration (and possibly WebGL) is a no-go. This is Apple's fault; Tiger PPC only comes with OpenGL 1.x, and even in Leopard only about half the supported graphics chipsets for PPC support OpenGL 2. For example, the iBook G4 with its Radeon R200-series chip is still OpenGL 1.x, even with 10.5.8; so is the MDD with its stock Radeon 9000. Mozilla's code absolutely requires support for non-powers-of-two textures, so that's that. I shortcircuited the compositor to always render in software mode, although there still seem to be some graphics glitches which I can't tell if they're my bug or Mozilla's bug.

The list of blockers keeps building up in Bugzilla, so this will necessarily delay a public proof-of-concept, but it's coming as soon as they clean out that blocker list.

Tiger PPC only comes with OpenGL 1.x
There's no software upgrade route, I presume?

even in Leopard only about half the supported graphics chipsets for PPC support OpenGL 2
Is there a list somewhere?

Yes, here are the list of supported cards and OpenGL versions by Mac OS X release, direct from Apple.

http://developer.apple.com/graphicsimaging/opengl/capabilities/GLInfo_10411PPC.html

http://developer.apple.com/graphicsimaging/opengl/capabilities/GLInfo_1058.html

The part that really steams my broccoli is comparing it to the 10.4.11 Intel list.

http://developer.apple.com/graphicsimaging/opengl/capabilities/GLInfo_10411Intel.html

Even the software renderer is OpenGL 2! WTF, Apple! Why couldn't you have done this for PowerPC, you lazy
vent.gif
s?! AFAIK, there is no way to update the renderer in software. I would LOVE to be proven wrong.

So Peter Bright's slam on Apple's OpenGL support is right on (posted by applefreak above). Now I can see why Valve ripped on Mac gaming for many years. OpenGL 2 came out in 2004, for Zarquon's sake.

Anyway, now that that little rant is over, the Mozilla list is up to 18 blockers from 13 a couple days ago, so this is not looking good for a timely release.

There had been a lot of bemoaning the state of PPC browsers, so I dropped a little tease to Charles Moore.

Good news is, as of this arvo, the list is down to five blockers and counting. Code freeze looks like it might be as soon as this week.

Edit: Btw, WebGL is confirmed to be a no-go, at least this time around. I'm looking into software renderers, but this is low on my priorities list currently.

How about naming it "PowerFox" since the main aim is too have an up to date as possible browser for PowerPC Macs?

"PowerFox," the first thing I thought of as an alteration to that was "Mighty Fox." Like the old cartoons of Mighty Mouse. :lol:

The name has been chosen :) (mostly because it's unique and expresses the original idea of a Tiger Fx 4).

Mozilla finally locked the tree today to run off beta 7, so I ran a quick pull+rebase and grabbed it. The original idea was to issue a debug version, but the debug version is just WAY too large (insert Mozilla bloat joke here). Instead, there will be optimized versions, including a G3, a "universal" 7400/7450 G4 version and a G5 version. In fact, I'm typing this on the G5 optimized version, and it's definitely faster than 3.6. Look for this next week (I'm visiting friends over the weekend, but I intend to push builds out on Monday).

And we STILL don't know the name you've chosen! :p

A G3 build?!? Awesome! :D I'll be sure to try that out on my Lombard. ^_^ Thanks so much for doing this ClassicHasClass! And I thought we'd be left behind in the "dawn of the HTML5 era."

Of course there's going to be a G3 build! How could I leave all those Pismos out in the cold! :) The G3 build is actually useful, because I use it to test under Rosetta since I have no Leopard PPCs.

There are a couple bugs I need to shake out over the weekend. The G5 build was a rocket, but started getting crashy, so I need to tune the optimization parameters a bit. The G3 and G4 builds are more solid once I countered a bug that could make the browser crash when the window was closed. I'm using the 7450 build for this post now.

May I present ... TenFourFox.

http://www.tenfourfox.com/

I have consolidated the G4/G5 builds into a single AltiVec build, since there was only minimal speed differences and I could not get the G5 build to be stable. There is also a separate G3 build. Please read the Release Notes!

That said, I have completely converted over to TenFourFox myself on all of my systems. Camino will shortly be a distant memory.

Cool! Can't wait to try it!

How does it compare to 3.6 on a G3?

Will the 'fox run on Tiger? 10-4, good buddy!

Hoo-rahh! I'm going to try this on both my Lomard and TiBook. :D

Love the professional look to the site, the fine-print at the bottom was hilarious.

Edit: Posting from TenFourFox on my TiBook. Looking good so far. :D (Although the title at the top of the window is hard to read against the theme I have. Oh well.)

agg23, I actually don't own a G3 running 10.4.11 at this time (I only recently got a PDQ WS 266, but I'm not sure if I'm going to use it as an 8.6 Classilla test rig or try to XPostFacto Tiger on it), so I couldn't say. I will say that the speed improvements alone are key, and the app is specifically tuned too, so you will probably notice a significant difference. However, a G3 and most low-spec G4s probably won't be able to play video well; even my 1.33GHz iBook G4 had a bit of trouble keeping up occasionally, though the G5 zips right along, natch, so I peg 1.25GHz as probably the minimum to play video reasonably.

PowerPup, glad it's working on your TiBook :) I daresay that overall you'll find it snappier over 3.6. It's certainly snappier on this quad.

I had a strange quirk happen when I re-opened it after deleting Camino and it's profile data.... Bookmarks, menu, and the address bar quit working. Might have had something to do with SyncFox addon being installed. So I deleted the profile data and let it generate a new one. Everything is working fine now. I'm really impressed with the new Firefox layout. I was a little surprised when I couldn't find the status bar, found out that they relocated the target link in the right side of the address bar and recalled the status bar to "addon bar." I've now deleted Camino & Firefox on my TiBook and have TFF as my default browser. :D

I'll report back after testing TenFourFox on my G3 Lombard. ;)

Well, currently posting from my G3 Lombard, and I must say I'm rather impressed. Comparing between TFF and an optimized G3 build of Camino, Camino seems to start up a little quicker, (only by a few noticeable seconds,) but TFF clearly renders things faster of the two. :D

Being a 333Mhz G3 with only 384MB of RAM and a 4GB HD, you can't expect Tiger or TFF to be very speedy. But it's fairly decent. I just need a bigger HD for my Lombard. :p (A little more RAM wouldn't hurt either.)

Well, I'm impressed by the limited testing so far. Seems quite speedy on the dual core G5. Another great job by Cameron!

Okay, I figured out why TFF was acting a little weird on my TiBook. Turns out that the addon "WebMail Notifier" has a compatibility issue with the latest beta of FireFox 4. Dunno if it's Mac specific or not. But oh well. I can do without it on my mac for now.

Yeah, the compatibility changes between 3.6 and 4 really bit some add-on authors. Extensions now need a manifest (which does reduce startup time), and there are some significant internal changes. I know my own extensions like OverbiteFF needed to be overhauled somewhat, and when Electrolysis comes, there will be another cathartic API gap. I'm hoping Electrolysis comes later than sooner, because I'm concerned it may make Mozilla no longer buildable on Tiger (among other things, it depends on Chromium IPC and IPC currently requires linking everything into a big fat libxul which makes the Tiger linker barf).

mp.ls