Help! Attempting SE/30 cpu socket to PowerCache pinout

When I got my set of LCII adapters, I also bought a IIcx Adapter . . . still have the box handy, but it's empty.

I've got a boatload of boxes to go through and lost s shipload of stuff in my storage room a while back, but I'll keep an eye out for the adapter

I think someone else has the socketed CPU adapter in the SE/30 and has posted about it recently.

How about a IIvx adapter? I have one of those, I can probe that unit. It's probably electrically equivalent. I have tried it on my SE/30 once or twice to run a Turbo 040 or PowerCache. It worked fine, but it was difficult to hook-up since I had to make a temporary power connection on the back side of the motherboard with wires and a Molex connector. I think Trag also has one that he was doing similar experiments with.

Trash80 - do keep your eyes peeled for it.

tt - I'm finding conflicting information on the IIvx's pds slot. Some sites (including the daystar archive) say it doesn't need an adapter to use a turbo 040, which makes me think it has a Iici slot. Taken from http://lowendmac.com/daystar/pages/dsd_products/upgrades/030.040/t040spec.html:

System Requirements:
Adapter required for SE/30, II, IIx, IIcx*, and IIsi

None needed for IIci, IIvx, IIvi, and Performa 600

Click to expand...

Are you sure what you have is a IIvx adapter?

SE/30 with Micron Xceed Grayscale & Socketed Daystar Acceler

send JDW a PM and see if he can help.

The PowerCache adapters are the "Rosetta Stone" of Apple's '030 PDS FUBAR strategy!

OK, I was mistaken. Yes, it is a IIcx adapter. I have that adapter and it worked when I plugged it into the '030 SE/30 socket.

The main problem is that routing the connection would be very difficult. I am willing to help out on figuring out the connections. If we come up with a schematic, I am sure the collective minds here could come up with a nice solution.

If only we could replicate the '030 PowerCache board.

Are there any ICs on the IIx adapter? I don't remember. If there isn't any Conversion Logic to noodle out, then it's a straight PCB Layout, no schematic required. Can you take good pics of the board, or scans of the flat side, if there is one . . .

. . . ISTR the bottom side looks like a freakin' hedgehog! :lol:

I'd rather see effort spent on getting a G3 or G4 onto a card like the PowerCache, the IIci PPC Upgrade Card would be the place to start unraveling . . .

. . . the cobweb of specs for that particular hack! }

There are no ICs, just capacitors and resistors. A schematic still would be helpful for CAD layout. If you search eBay right now, there is one with large photos to see.

It looks like the PCB has a dark layer obscuring the layout in between, so a high-res photo will not help for everything the OP is looking for.

I've seen photos of the IIx adapter. It has a pass-through socket for the original CPU and a single IC. The IC scared me off.

Now about this IIcx adapter. tt, you found the same images I used to make my incomplete pin map. If you're comfortable with it, I'd like to rent your IIcx adapter for pretty much what I'd pay to buy it (say $50?), map the pins (and verify them several times), and send it back unscathed. I'll use a multimeter and will not damage it in any way. I might even x-ray it just for kicks.

If you're not comfortable with that, I'd need you to check which pins each end of each capacitor maps to. Ditto for the resistors, making note of the measured resistance. For both the CPU socket and the cache slot. I'd also need you to see where the red pins in my diagram map to. It's going to be tedious. Either that or get it x-rayed in high detail and send photos.

In either case, once I have the pin map complete I'll do my best to illustrate it for everyone, and will use my SE/30 as a test subject.

If you've got an LCIII, have I got an adapter for you!!!! :lol:

I haven't found the IIcx Adapter, but I've got Version 1.0 of the:

Universal PowerCache Installation Manual for the Mac Color Classic, LCIII, and Performa 450

You should see all the chips on the CC Adapter! 8-o

The LCIII/P450 Adapter doesn't have any logic on it, just some resistors/assorted digital glue.

Hmm, I need to mull it over. But in the meantime, I can take some high-res photos, post them, and poke around with a multimeter. I would like to see this info get disseminated to the community since I think it has the potential to make progress. I also have an x-ray image of a Daystar PowerCache. I am not sure if anyone would think it's interesting though.

You've GOT TO BE Kidding! Post it! :approve:

Trash80 - I do have an LC III, but right now I'm focused on the SE/30. Interesting that the LC III PDS doesn't need any ICs on the adapter, while the SE/30 PDS does...

Daystar LC slot adapter:





No mention of the LCIII and P450, but perhaps this adapter was sold before those later models came out.

Yup that looks like the CC Adapter in my manual for the LCIII, trag.

Gotta do a couple of scans to post . . . }

NoPro on the Adapter, Charleton Heston, I was just offering. I'll assume you've tested your TurboCache in a IIci, correct?

I have one of those LC adapters. It does not fit in an LCIII, the shape of its extended PDS slot prevents one side from completely snapping into place

I'll post pics of my "L" shaped LCIII adapters and, hopefully, scans of the manual, maybe somebody can stitch it together as a .pdf from my .jpg files. It has pics of the Classic & SE Compatible Cards and the non-Classic & SE compatible Cards.

edit: done with the manual . . .

DAYSTAR Universal PowerCache installation manual

It's a LOT of pics to load, but they're not too bad on my 3g connection.

I did some poking of the pins in yellow. Confirmed means the connections listed are correct and not confirmed means they are not connected.

Confirmed

H2 to A2

G13 to C25

H13 to C26

L3 to C1

H2 to A2

Not Confirmed

K1 to C27

G1 to C2

G12 to B23 (connection found at C12)

tt - NICE WORK! I've updated the pinout with your info. We've accounted for all 86 leads that go from the CPU to the daystar slot.

I've examined the capacitors on the various non-se/30 daystar adapters I own, and it looks like they're merely charge "buffers" intended to sustain +5v at all times. I'm going to assume the capacitors on the IIcx adapter do the same. If you can, scrutinize the 3 resistors close to the CPU socket next.

Once we figure out where the resistors connect, it's safe to assume the rest of the red pins aren't used

What is the procedure I would use to evaluate the resistors? I think there may be some hidden ones under the socket extender.

Do the red pins also need to be probed? Also, K1 and G1 might be connected elsewhere, I didn't look that carefully on the PDS side yet.

tt - just probe the soldered edges of the resistors to see which pin they go to. If one side maps to multiple pins with zero resistance, that's likely ground or 5V.

At this point there's no way for us to find out if there is anything beneath the socket, aside from x-raying it. I'll chance it.

Oh, and please do check the red pins too, just to be safe. I'm putting my only SE/30 at risk

Aha ... I see someone else has noticed the utter simplicity of the IIcx adapter as well Eeexcellent.

Everyone is clear that this adapter goes into the '030 CPU socket, not the PDS, correct?

We've accounted for all 86 leads that go from the CPU to the daystar slot.

Click to expand...

BRILLIANT!

IIcx adapter. I have that adapter and it worked when I plugged it into the '030 SE/30 socket.

Click to expand...

That is fantastic news. What accelerators were you able to use it with? Were you able to reassemble the SE/30 with the adapter & accelerator in place?

IamSpartacus, I note in your OP you say:

My plan is to make a wire harness that mimics the IICX adapter

Click to expand...

Is that still the plan, or are you now intending to construct a PCB?

You'd best move to the PCB setup Bunsen suggested soon after completing your debugged, proof of concept, Wire Wrap(?) ProtoBoard.

That puppy is gonna throw off enough RFI that it might actually interfere with your PowerCache/SE/30 MoBo under testing!!!! 8-o

If it's to be a straight wiring deal, you might need cable drivers at the CPU end if the wires get long enough. (ease of installation)

I'd suggest using shielded ribbon cable with alternate ground lines, but that would interfere with keeping every wire of equal length for timing.

Is there a good, individually shielded, wire for use in prototyping situations like this?

Keep in mind, I'm a worrywart when it comes to timing, crosstalk, RFI etc. :I

BRILLIANT!

Click to expand...

Let me clarify, we've mapped all 86 visible leads on the board. There's still the matter of the caps and resistors.

Is that still the plan, or are you now intending to construct a PCB?

Click to expand...

The plan is still to make a wire harness. I'm putting the Turbo 040 where the HD used to be, so I'll need the connector to be flexible.

Trash80- My first impulse is to use wire pulled from a bundled U2W SCSI cable. The length should be about equal to the leads in the iicx adapter, so I'm not too worried about that. If there's too much RF I'll wrap the wire bundle in foil or something.

I'm also thinking of wiring all the 5V and GND pins of the Turbo040 directly to a hard drive connector via nice fat wires. Hopefully this will remove the need for those capacitors the IIcx adapter has.

While we're at this, has anybody got one of those ludicrously expensive Japanese PDS adapters for the SE/30? :?:

I've been poking around the IIsi Docs and for the life of me, I can't figure out why that infernal PAL is needed for that design. Does it enable an additional PDS PseudoSlot from the existing number of PseudoSlots available?

How many PseudoSlots are already accessible on the SE/30 anyway? :?:

Rhetorical question, I can look it up when I have time, but a /30 hacker will probably have an explanation of the logical function of that card as well as the SlotInfo specs to go with it.

My understanding is the PAL is needed to convert the PDS slot to a IIci cache slot. Maybe it also handles the PDS pass-through functionality for the additional SE/30 PDS slot.

Maybe the Artmix adapter or Daystar adapter with PAL could be redesigned to allow for a IIci cache slot and two PDS slots. If you had a low-profile SCSI-CF drive installed, then there would probably be room. If you are looking at the Artmix adapter, the extra PDS slot would be parallel to the IIci cache slot.

If the Artmix Adapter's PAL is for adapting the SE/30's PDS Slot to a IIci Cache Slot Card, you shouldn't need it at all to address as many SE/30 or IIsi cards as the SE/30's address map can handle.

The SE/30's PDS "Slot" is the equivalent of an extensible, pre-VESA, local bus slot on a PC. You can stick as many cards on that bus as the PC's BIOS or the Mac's ROM will allow in its memory mapping scheme. That's why you can have IIsi & SE/30 Cards that daisy-chain off each other. These are constrained only by provision for the daisy-chaining connectors, address compatibility jumper setting availability, accessible cubic within the Mac and the number of PseudoSlot addresses available in the ROM's memory mapping.

Three PseudoSlot addresses are available to the IIsi and :?: are available to the SE/30. A PAL should be unnecessary for a similar adapter if it is ONLY moving the connections around to spaces where cubic is available to max out the SE/30's PseudoSlot/PDS Card Addressing allotment . . .

. . . as would be the case under consideration, with an '030 Socket conversion for the PowerCache . . .

. . . or so I understand the situation! )

So are the PDS pass-through slots in series? http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~shamada/fullmac/se30_minitowerEng.html indicates 6 addresses. Maybe the PAL is tapping into the PDS and switching-off between sending instructions to the IIci cache slot and passing them through to the rest of the PDS chain?

My point is, I am guessing the SE/30 PDS slot has more going on than just routing lines to the CPU, and that's why to get it to a state the PowerCache can handle, it needs to involve some logic.

I don't read it that way at all, the SE/30, according to that site and assuming they're using the SE/30's native ROM, has 5 available addressable PseudoSlot IDs.

If the Artmix Adapter places the PowerCache at one specific slot location inline (in series) with the PAL and its theoretical adaptation of the SE/30's straight up 68030 local bus to a IIci Cache Slot config, that PAL would be totally unnecessary. A similar adapter should be workable for moving as many as four other cards about the internal cubic of the SE/30. If, with the total replacement (?) of the 68030 with the PowerCache in an '030 socket adapter, it winds up at the MoBo's address $E, you'd have all five PseudoSlot addresses available for "Stock" or "adapted" PDS Cards.

The CPU controls which Card is addressed with interrupts and address calls to whichever Card IT decides to address, the adapters extending the bus should have nothing to do with it at all!

Very interesting, indeed! }

I probed the pins in red, and it seems like they aren't connected to the pins at the cache slot.

I probed the resistors:

R1: 678 ohms

R2: 390 ohms

R3: 678 ohms

The pins below are ones I happened to find first, and then I started poking other ones that seem related.

R1: F11 short and other pins labeled +5, F12 390 ohms

R2: L6 short and other pins labeled +5

R3: L6 short and other pins labeled +5

There's also a C3 and a C9 underneath the male-to-male socket adapter. I used the Daystar PGA puller to get that part off.

C3: H3 & GND

C9: F2 & GND

I don't really understand what should be connected to what for resistors and capacitors, like should the resistors be in series with links between the cache and cpu sockets? Maybe a hypothetical schematic would help me understand how to probe it more efficiently.

Hmm, I don't quite get it either. An x-ray would be pretty useful right now. Can you verify F12? I think I should have made that one yellow instead of green.

If it's to be a straight wiring deal, you might need cable drivers at the CPU end

Click to expand...

N00B question: what's a cable driver?

How many PseudoSlots are already accessible on the SE/30 anyway? :?:

Click to expand...

Consult gamba's SE/30 corner, or the Minitower SE/30 site. One or t'other of those pages has that info, I believe.

the Artmix Adapter's PAL / you shouldn't need it at all [for] SE/30 or IIsi cards

Click to expand...

Well ... no. As the above two sites demonstrate. It's strictly for the IIci-PDS Daystar accelerators.

So are the PDS pass-through slots in series?

Click to expand...

They're not physical slots, they're pseudo-slot addresses. And the cards themselves select their address (as I recall), not the Mac, nor any adapter. Most cards are hardwired to one address (or ID), some can be reset with jumpers. The physical arrangement of cards matters not a whit, except insofar as which cards have a passthrough PDS, and physical space issues.

http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~shamada/fullmac/se30_minitowerEng.html#pds_adapter

2. How to install three cards to a single PDS slot?
The important criteria are

(1)whether the card has a pass-through slot to install an additional card; and

(2)whether the slot address of the card is configurable with a jumper switch.

Click to expand...

I've managed to get my hands on a IICX adapter, and have completed the pinout page. In theory, this diagram could be used to wire up an adapter between Daystar accelerators and any 68030 socket.

http://hiddenkingdom.net/temp/pinout.htm

My only remaining question is this: the card has 8 small capacitors arranged in parallel. All of them bridge +5VDC and GND. This puzzles me. Can anyone with some EE experience explain this? Why use 8 small caps rather than 1 large cap?

Now to build one and see if it works...

They sound like decoupling capacitors.

My only remaining question is this: the card has 8 small capacitors arranged in parallel. All of them bridge +5VDC and GND. This puzzles me. Can anyone with some EE experience explain this? Why use 8 small caps rather than 1 large cap?

Click to expand...

In general, smaller capacity capacitors (lower farads) react more quickly. So, let's say your supply is 5V and you can't tolerate a low voltage condition which lasts for more than 10 ns. So you need a capacitor with a small enough rating that it can react and supply stored charge to bring the voltage back up in less than 10 ns.

However, you may need to supply 30 watts of power at 5V = 6 amps. So you need enough capacitors that they can supply 6 amps at the difference in voltage which might occur. So you use a bunch of them, until they have enough charge capacity to supply 6 amps.

But these little caps are going to be depleted really quickly. They may react quickly, but they don't store much total charge. They may react within 10 ns and be exhausted by 50 ns. So if you want to be able to bridge a shortfall which lasts 1 millisecond, you might put in a much larger (in u Farads) capacitor.

This capacitor will react more slowly, but that's okay, the little guys have it covered during the initial period. By the time the little guys are out of spare juice, the big guy has started supplying current and is now supporting the voltage and being a (relatively) big capacitor, it can last much longer than the little guys.

In practice, there will be a bunch of little chip ceramic capacitors in the 1,000 - 100,000 picofarad (1 - 100 nanofarad) range (at least on newer faster stuff), some electrolytic or tantalum caps in the 10 - 50 uF range, and a few bigger guys in the 200 - 500 uF range.

In practice, I doubt that the adapter board really needs the caps. There are decoupling caps on the logic board around the CPU socket. There are decoupling caps on the Daystar upgrade board. It seems unlikely that they're really essential on the adapter board as well, but Daystar put a lot of engineering into their stuff. They may have added a little overcapacity.

I've managed to get my hands on a IICX adapter, and have completed the pinout page.

Click to expand...

Great work IamSpartaus, I'm glad you found a board. Thanks for sharing the pinout. Looking forward to seeing the end result. Are you making a PCB/harness for the adapter?

Trag- that's plausible. I'm going to experiment with variable numbers of caps to see if it makes a difference. I'll be using a Turbo040, so if anything has power requirements enough for this to matter, that's it.

tt- the project is happening, but on hold due to obligatory holiday vacationing. It's going to be mostly wires, with a small pcb to unify the 5V and GND wires, and to hold any caps I'll use. Expect progress in january