Thread
128k Mac with Twiggy drive
This actually makes good sense to me. You can't see it in any of the pictures posted thus far, but there should also be a vent under the handle which seems like a Jobs' compromise, effective but hidden. It was probably a gradual evolution - hidden under the handle, then when that wasn't enough, cut into the chamfered corners, and when that didn't work, cut giant holes into the top. Consider too, that the first Macs shipped with an RF/heatsink that ran along the top of the analogue board, but ultimately blocked the vents, causing it to overheat, and subsequently removed. So by the time the Mac shipped, they had still not adequately tested the venting system.
And when you consider the top vents, they are actually separate grilles, glued to the case. This is probably one of the most un-Jobs like design features of the original Mac. so in my mind, it is clearly a last minute addition as the mold had already been created and would have cost a fortune to retool with the same intricacy of Mannock's child-proof grille, rather than just punch a hole in the top of the case.
There are pictures of this prototype on some early Marketing materials. The original Mac manual shows a few, as do some Books, like the Microsoft guide to the Mac. I don't have access to them at the moment, so not sure if any show a top view, but now I'm curious to go back and take a look.
And when you consider the top vents, they are actually separate grilles, glued to the case. This is probably one of the most un-Jobs like design features of the original Mac. so in my mind, it is clearly a last minute addition as the mold had already been created and would have cost a fortune to retool with the same intricacy of Mannock's child-proof grille, rather than just punch a hole in the top of the case.
There are pictures of this prototype on some early Marketing materials. The original Mac manual shows a few, as do some Books, like the Microsoft guide to the Mac. I don't have access to them at the moment, so not sure if any show a top view, but now I'm curious to go back and take a look.
He said he received offers for it privately and a sale will most likely go through. I wonder if there's some concern that Apple might want it back and bring out their prototype security forces. :b&w: When they asked about how much, he said more than what a Lisa I is going for these days. He also mentioned someone sent him a 400k external drive, boot disk with ROM dump software and will try to format a Twiggy disk.
Podcast: http://retromaccast.libsyn.com/episode-232-mac-twiggy
That would actually be quite an assumption.
Given: There are pictures "a" bucket with one of the short run of soft tool, injection molded, untexturized Twiggy Bezels that was used as a prop for photography.
Opinion: I think it's very unlikely that the "TwiggyPropMac" was anything more than an empty Bucket/Frame/CRT/Front Bezel.
Reasoning: If you have a bunch of prototype parts on hand and several working prototypes. Who in their right mind would send a working prototype off to be used as a prop on a Photo Set?
Note: The image on the screen was obviously a mechanical/comp/paleolithic era "Photoshopping." There's no way to photograph an actual CRT Image even when the set is as poorly lit as this one for the purpose. If there was a CRT in that shell at all, it was more than likely painted green or white.
Observation: The ONLY picture I've collected (and I've collected every single Mac Prototype image I've ever run across) that shows an unquestionably workable (not I didn't say "working") prototype with a Twiggy Bezel was the Sony 3.5" MicroFloppy testbed with holes hand drilled in the top for reality-corrected convection cooling.
The rest of the pics I've posted in a parallel thread are here: http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=17681
Trash, why not send a friendly email to the proprietor of Folklore.org? I'm sure he could tell you in three sentences or less whether any "buttoned-up" working Twiggy prototypes ever existed.
Note that you undermine your own premise by saying "Who in their right mind would send a working prototype off to be used as a prop on a Photo Set?". The "timeline" stated by the owner of this thing says they got it in late 1983. That would jive perfectly with the idea that "oh, we have plenty of these now-obsolete-and-useless-since-we-switched-to-the-Sony-drive prototypes lying around, let's send one of them instead of a 3 1/2" bezel unit." Or are you referring generally to the Mac used in those promotional photo shoots? In that case, keep in mind that was 1983. Photoshopping a natural-looking screen display onto a static prop took more effort then than it does now. They certainly *could* of used a completely dead doorstop, but your blanket contention that every picture of a "working" Twiggy Mac must be fake sort of borders on Moon Landing conspiracy unless you can produce some evidence. Apple was doing "secret" demos of the Mac to software vendors starting as early as mid-1982, more than a year before they even decided to use the Sony drive; are you saying that every one of those demos was done using a naked circuit board connected to... what?
EDIT, since it was just added as I was typing this: Those *sure* look like working Twiggy Macs (with no vents on top) on a few pages of the original Mac user manual. (See chapters 3 and 4. Could the screen glow be fake? Sure, but... again, how is that a more conservative interpretation of the facts? ) The one shot you picked probably *is* 'shopped because there appears to be a window in the background which would probably at least wash out the screen display, but it's not the only picture in existence.
You seem to be basing the bulk of this supposition on the fact that the pictures of the "Two-face" brutally-hacked-to-hold-the-Sony-drive Mac you found show hand-drilled cooling holes in the top. So... what does that prove? It's certainly evidence that the Twiggy-prototypes might of had a severe overheating problem, but it does nothing to demonstrate that said systems never *worked*, at least for a few hours/days at a time. (Wouldn't you have to actually run the system for a while to discover it has a cooling problem?)
Note that you undermine your own premise by saying "Who in their right mind would send a working prototype off to be used as a prop on a Photo Set?". The "timeline" stated by the owner of this thing says they got it in late 1983. That would jive perfectly with the idea that "oh, we have plenty of these now-obsolete-and-useless-since-we-switched-to-the-Sony-drive prototypes lying around, let's send one of them instead of a 3 1/2" bezel unit." Or are you referring generally to the Mac used in those promotional photo shoots? In that case, keep in mind that was 1983. Photoshopping a natural-looking screen display onto a static prop took more effort then than it does now. They certainly *could* of used a completely dead doorstop, but your blanket contention that every picture of a "working" Twiggy Mac must be fake sort of borders on Moon Landing conspiracy unless you can produce some evidence. Apple was doing "secret" demos of the Mac to software vendors starting as early as mid-1982, more than a year before they even decided to use the Sony drive; are you saying that every one of those demos was done using a naked circuit board connected to... what?
EDIT, since it was just added as I was typing this: Those *sure* look like working Twiggy Macs (with no vents on top) on a few pages of the original Mac user manual. (See chapters 3 and 4. Could the screen glow be fake? Sure, but... again, how is that a more conservative interpretation of the facts? ) The one shot you picked probably *is* 'shopped because there appears to be a window in the background which would probably at least wash out the screen display, but it's not the only picture in existence.
You seem to be basing the bulk of this supposition on the fact that the pictures of the "Two-face" brutally-hacked-to-hold-the-Sony-drive Mac you found show hand-drilled cooling holes in the top. So... what does that prove? It's certainly evidence that the Twiggy-prototypes might of had a severe overheating problem, but it does nothing to demonstrate that said systems never *worked*, at least for a few hours/days at a time. (Wouldn't you have to actually run the system for a while to discover it has a cooling problem?)
I never said that Twiggy Prototypes couldn't work or never worked. I just said this guy shouldn't run this particular system with the bucket on it for any length of time!
Shutters, Film and Lighting are mutually incompatible with CRT Scan Lines and Brightness Levels on any photo set. Ask 4seasonphoto, I'll bet he backs me up on this.
Gross Generalization: All pictures of All Computer screens are USUALLY retouched.composited/faked due to these incompatibilities.
It's not conspiracy theory, it's graphic art production!
Take a look of the pic of the guy illuminated in blue by the Mac CRT, there was a blue gel/photoflood in that case!
Retouching/Compositing were standard graphic arts and cinematic processes in 1983. Doing it "manually" today is still sometimes easier that doing the same thing in Photoshop, it's just that nobody knows how to do it the old way except guerilla filmmakers and the old timers at ILM.
It's like the old saw: When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Photoshop's a digital pixel hammer.
)
Shutters, Film and Lighting are mutually incompatible with CRT Scan Lines and Brightness Levels on any photo set. Ask 4seasonphoto, I'll bet he backs me up on this.
Gross Generalization: All pictures of All Computer screens are USUALLY retouched.composited/faked due to these incompatibilities.
It's not conspiracy theory, it's graphic art production!
Take a look of the pic of the guy illuminated in blue by the Mac CRT, there was a blue gel/photoflood in that case!
Retouching/Compositing were standard graphic arts and cinematic processes in 1983. Doing it "manually" today is still sometimes easier that doing the same thing in Photoshop, it's just that nobody knows how to do it the old way except guerilla filmmakers and the old timers at ILM.
It's like the old saw: When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Photoshop's a digital pixel hammer.
Considering the cooling problems/failure rates of the production 128k . . . I'd say: NO! Not in hindsight anyway.
) Oh. Okay. If that's what you said then I'll agree that, yes, he probably shouldn't be leaving it on for days at a time because chances are it has a dysfunctional cooling system. Not an unusual problem for a prototype to have.
The thing is, when you say things like "The prototyping timelines don't appear to mesh at all to me. Without even the relatively ineffective provision for convection cooling of the 128k, it's certainly not meant to be a usable Mac as shown in the pictures." it certainly sounds like you're saying a lot more than that, something along the lines of: "Clearly, based on the lack of vent holes on top there's no way anyone could possibly of had one of these assembled and turned on for more than five minutes without it bursting like a sparkler bomb and killing everyone within a twenty yard radius. Therefore all those pictures of people working on Twiggy-Macs have just *got* to be fake." Not to mention your statements expressing doubt that Apple's entire (ill-fated, granted) disk drive division could *possibly* turn out enough semi-working Twiggy drives for the Mac developers to use prior to the Sony salesman showing up at the door despite the fact they actually managed to get a few thousand two-drive Lisa 1s out the door during the same period. Which worked, sort of.
I dunno, it just reads a bit like you're extrapolating a bit. But maybe it's just me. My apologies. Again, if you're convinced the dates mentioned on folklore.org are wrong it's probably possible to get in touch with some of the people who may or may not of been taking Twiggymacs home/on other road trips.
You miss the general point, the pics of people using any Macs (or PCs) in such publications are probably "faked." It's a whole lot easier to retouch or replace the CRT image in the compositing room than it is to get a usable photo of someone using the image on a working CRT on a photo set in real time. That's the way it was done and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the way it's still done to this day.
That's a graphic arts process observation. I've seen film-making documentary that suggests that it's still being done for computer displays with smoke & mirrors/digital hammers.
I only said the time lines for this particular kluge of prototype parts to have been an actual working prototype seem to be off.
I AM extrapolating and I AM playing devil's advocate to some degree. I have a healthy level of skepticism about most everything, this TwiggyMacPrototype is well worth examining as closely as possible for minor discrepancies. Especially so since it appears (to me) to be a moneymaking effort on the part of the owner, who's not all that interested (or so it appears to me) in actually testing the unit, just in photographing and hyping it.
BTW: I LOVE the stuff on folklore, but it's presented as:
Those characters were t * i * r * e * d from a frenzied workpace, in a secretive workplace and being whipsawed back and forth on developmental dead-ends at the whim of a brilliant madman. SJ was more like an architect, who makes pretty drawings and models to sell a concept and then drives everyone on the worksite crazy about what details of his inspiration remain, after having had them cut down several notches and had his nose rubbed in the realities of structural engineering, by the engineers who do the actual design work.
IMHO, of course, but I've been on a lot of job sites and had to deal with a lot of architects!)
Fortunately and unfortunately, SJ was the owner/operator of the shop that did the structural engineering, so much of the Mac's successful developmental detail went on under his radar/outside the reality distortion field.
That's a graphic arts process observation. I've seen film-making documentary that suggests that it's still being done for computer displays with smoke & mirrors/digital hammers.
I only said the time lines for this particular kluge of prototype parts to have been an actual working prototype seem to be off.
I AM extrapolating and I AM playing devil's advocate to some degree. I have a healthy level of skepticism about most everything, this TwiggyMacPrototype is well worth examining as closely as possible for minor discrepancies. Especially so since it appears (to me) to be a moneymaking effort on the part of the owner, who's not all that interested (or so it appears to me) in actually testing the unit, just in photographing and hyping it.
BTW: I LOVE the stuff on folklore, but it's presented as:
Anecdote is to Documentary as Memoir is to AutoBiography. They're not the same thing and not necessarily as factual as the latter, so much as entertaining/informative and accurate within the framework that memory allows.
Those characters were t * i * r * e * d from a frenzied workpace, in a secretive workplace and being whipsawed back and forth on developmental dead-ends at the whim of a brilliant madman. SJ was more like an architect, who makes pretty drawings and models to sell a concept and then drives everyone on the worksite crazy about what details of his inspiration remain, after having had them cut down several notches and had his nose rubbed in the realities of structural engineering, by the engineers who do the actual design work.
IMHO, of course, but I've been on a lot of job sites and had to deal with a lot of architects!
) Fortunately and unfortunately, SJ was the owner/operator of the shop that did the structural engineering, so much of the Mac's successful developmental detail went on under his radar/outside the reality distortion field.
400KB Sony external?
Whoever buys that better should have some Twiggy disks.
As for the CRT issue, I'm guessing they can make a transparency with Mac graphics printed on it and glue it to the front shell, then put a light bulb behind it. Needless to say the black border surrounding the display is a little smaller than it should be...although that depends on distance.
You can take a photograph of an image on a CRT if you put the camera on a tripod, set the shutter speed really slow, and set the F-stop really small, so as to allow lots of scans of the screen through the shutter. It also helps to use a time delay so you aren't touching the camera during the exposure. I did this in my high school photography class and it turned out very well, crisp and no lines.
Yes, to boot with, along with Twiggy compatible disks to try out.
What is the "Mac Man" character on the PCB's? Any info out there on the character?
Agreed, it can be done, if that''s the only thing you're trying to photograph.
Such is not a priority in a photography session for publication, television or the movies. It was difficult enough to get a great set of usable shots of the rest of the set, the models and the equipment to be advertised or documented back in the day of pre-digital Polaroid proofing for film shoots. Cluttering up a shoot with a real computer that needed to display any kind of image at all would never have been a serious consideration. That image was almost always done in post production for video, movies and print.
Heck, the ads and brochure pages were done as paste-up comps for process photography and photo-lithographic plates in that way-pre-PageMaker era.
How many of you kids have even seen a process camera?
Such is not a priority in a photography session for publication, television or the movies. It was difficult enough to get a great set of usable shots of the rest of the set, the models and the equipment to be advertised or documented back in the day of pre-digital Polaroid proofing for film shoots. Cluttering up a shoot with a real computer that needed to display any kind of image at all would never have been a serious consideration. That image was almost always done in post production for video, movies and print.
Heck, the ads and brochure pages were done as paste-up comps for process photography and photo-lithographic plates in that way-pre-PageMaker era.
How many of you kids have even seen a process camera?
Mr. Macintosh. Read Folklore.org for the story on him.
Thanks for the link. I had not seen a Lisa in operation before. It seems painfully slow...
Has anyone been following updates on the TwiggyMac? :?:
http://www.applefritter.com/content/macintosh-128k-prototype-twiggy-drive
http://www.applefritter.com/content/macintosh-128k-prototype-twiggy-drive
I'm sure it would make a nice discussion piece, coupled with a working demo and all that, could keep me interested for at least an hour.
For now though, it looks like a flop. Pity, since I was piqued by it. Then I noted the lack of twiggy disks on the 'net, and that was all I figured I needed to know. Unless someone has a stash of twiggy disks, and a way to put an OS on it, I see a pass-around orphan machine.
For now though, it looks like a flop. Pity, since I was piqued by it. Then I noted the lack of twiggy disks on the 'net, and that was all I figured I needed to know. Unless someone has a stash of twiggy disks, and a way to put an OS on it, I see a pass-around orphan machine.
I'm sure someone has a few twiggy disks around. The original Lisa's were sold long enough for a good bunch of disks to be made before the Lisa 2/XL replaced it.
I would swear at some point I saw a page where someone claimed at least some success "manufacturing" twiggy disks by carefully skinning standard 1.2 MB AT floppies, creatively cutting-and-pasting the jacket, and reassembling the disk. I don't know how wise/workable that actually is, but... could be worth a shot if someone were serious about fiddling with the machine. (Unfortunately Google is failing me in finding a reference to said process.)
Of course, call me jaded but I don't think the guy who has the TwiggyTosh is really that serious about *playing* with the machine.
Of course, call me jaded but I don't think the guy who has the TwiggyTosh is really that serious about *playing* with the machine.
But, has anyb6dy seen 6r heard any news about this particular LisaMac?
I read a rumor that it was to be put up for sale . . . :?:
I read a rumor that it was to be put up for sale . . . :?:
There has been Apple FileWare / Twiggy disks on ebay for months from this seller:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Apple-Lisa-1-Computer-5-25-Twiggy-Disk-c-1983-/370473987514?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5641f86dba
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Apple-Lisa-1-Computer-5-25-Twiggy-Disk-c-1983-/370473987514?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5641f86dba
Then you need a Lisa that works or someone that does to copy the operating system to the twiggy disk.
And then what can you do next?
Networking, for a start. Since it is a 128K, it can't use the HD20 without the INIT, so then a working HD20 has to be procured and the INIT loaded. And then what?
And then what can you do next?
Networking, for a start. Since it is a 128K, it can't use the HD20 without the INIT, so then a working HD20 has to be procured and the INIT loaded. And then what?
A couple of thoughts.
1) As Apple engineers were actively developing the 400K disk behind Steve Jobs back, the ROM likely supports the Sony driver found in a 400K external drive at this late date in the prototyping. Then again, they may have kept the Sony drive development ROMs under lock and key lest Steve accidentally stumble upon it like the ill-fated diagnostic port.
2) Even if the ROM supports the 400K drive, it may not support the production model that shipped, in much the same way the Rev. A ROMs do not support the 2nd generation drive that shipped in late 1984.
3) Assuming the 400K external drive would work, there is no guarantee any version of the available early Mac software would boot this Mac, depending on the ROM version. Likewise for the Twiggy drive. Do we really know anything about it for the Mac? The Mac did almost everything differently. Why would Jobs settle for an off-the-shelf implementation of the Twiggy drive? How would one even load an early version of the Mac software onto a Twiggy disk via the drive in that Mac in any reliable way? Assuming it is possible, considering the tweaks that were made in the 11th hour after the 400K drive had been adopted, would any of it actually work with the earliest Mac software available to us? Seems unlikely.
1) As Apple engineers were actively developing the 400K disk behind Steve Jobs back, the ROM likely supports the Sony driver found in a 400K external drive at this late date in the prototyping. Then again, they may have kept the Sony drive development ROMs under lock and key lest Steve accidentally stumble upon it like the ill-fated diagnostic port.
2) Even if the ROM supports the 400K drive, it may not support the production model that shipped, in much the same way the Rev. A ROMs do not support the 2nd generation drive that shipped in late 1984.
3) Assuming the 400K external drive would work, there is no guarantee any version of the available early Mac software would boot this Mac, depending on the ROM version. Likewise for the Twiggy drive. Do we really know anything about it for the Mac? The Mac did almost everything differently. Why would Jobs settle for an off-the-shelf implementation of the Twiggy drive? How would one even load an early version of the Mac software onto a Twiggy disk via the drive in that Mac in any reliable way? Assuming it is possible, considering the tweaks that were made in the 11th hour after the 400K drive had been adopted, would any of it actually work with the earliest Mac software available to us? Seems unlikely.
It's alive!...
I hope the following will set the records straight. Some of you may know me as eBay seller "wozniac". I just want you let you all know that over the past year I have exausted many resourses and went as far as I could go in order to facilitate the resurrection of this Twiggy Macintosh 128k prototype. To everyone's delight, yes - it lives! 2 disks were found.
I was able to have the disks shipped up to me in Canada, then sent over to James McPhail who was able to archive and duplicate the disks by means of the Basic Lisa Utility which he wrote. This is a truly amazing feat and discovery. I wish to share all of this with you.
More stories and information to come, This is "insanely great" !
Steve Sez...
I hope the following will set the records straight. Some of you may know me as eBay seller "wozniac". I just want you let you all know that over the past year I have exausted many resourses and went as far as I could go in order to facilitate the resurrection of this Twiggy Macintosh 128k prototype. To everyone's delight, yes - it lives! 2 disks were found.
I was able to have the disks shipped up to me in Canada, then sent over to James McPhail who was able to archive and duplicate the disks by means of the Basic Lisa Utility which he wrote. This is a truly amazing feat and discovery. I wish to share all of this with you.
More stories and information to come, This is "insanely great" !
Steve Sez...
awesome. :'( (tears of joy)
This thread should be locked-there's another, more comprehensive, thread on this around here.
OOM - save it buddy…
You have no idea what so ever how much Mac512k put forth in order to share this wonderful information with us.
This man is as serious as they get. And all I can say is WOW, sir. Thanks for hanging in there and sharing this with us.
This really is Insanely great!
You have no idea what so ever how much Mac512k put forth in order to share this wonderful information with us.
This man is as serious as they get. And all I can say is WOW, sir. Thanks for hanging in there and sharing this with us.
This really is Insanely great!
I think what he means is this is posted twice in two different threads, let's organize all the information to one thread so information and questions don't get scattered.
Man you need to share these stories at Retromaccast!