Thread
Getting files onto old compact Macs
I don't. If i was king of the US and all the computer fazzle going on back in the day, I would have put out a mandate that all computers from the // onward have some sort of minimal bootable OS in ROM, that can handle basic tasks with shell control. And all computers from that point on must have a standard serial networking interface, so that a //c could hook up to the very latest machine with no real issues.
It's not hard at all, the ROM thing would be a problem though. We already had FTP, we already know how to push data over four pins (clock, data+, data-, ground), simple serial interfaces and handshaking et al back in the 70's. Since the engineers who knew the ins and outs of the hardware et cetera, how hard could it be? Since memory was expensive, they could compress the system into ROM and use assembly language.
As for modern computers, they could have a simple OS like System 6 in ROM that can do simple stuff like blessing system folders and what not. Terminal would be a real bonus as well. You might say "But there's no room for a DIN-4 on a MacBook Pro 2x!!!!" I think a simple Ethernet to DIN-4 adaptor would suffice (or ThunderBolt to DIN-4). "But what if the FTP or the system ROM gets expanded with new features?" No problem, use programmable ROM chips that are cheap and easy to burn, and they plug into a DIP socket or something like that.
Something like that.
As for OS X with floppy drives, watch out for extraneous fat that the system plops onto the disk. 1.3MB could be suddenly reduced to 1MB free space without warning.
If you want to access the internet, there have been a handful of users here and elsewhere that have made pseudo PPP networks. Basically, dial-up-like but without the modem. I'll be looking into a writeup on how to do that once a certain member gets back from spring break.
It's not hard at all, the ROM thing would be a problem though. We already had FTP, we already know how to push data over four pins (clock, data+, data-, ground), simple serial interfaces and handshaking et al back in the 70's. Since the engineers who knew the ins and outs of the hardware et cetera, how hard could it be? Since memory was expensive, they could compress the system into ROM and use assembly language.
As for modern computers, they could have a simple OS like System 6 in ROM that can do simple stuff like blessing system folders and what not. Terminal would be a real bonus as well. You might say "But there's no room for a DIN-4 on a MacBook Pro 2x!!!!" I think a simple Ethernet to DIN-4 adaptor would suffice (or ThunderBolt to DIN-4). "But what if the FTP or the system ROM gets expanded with new features?" No problem, use programmable ROM chips that are cheap and easy to burn, and they plug into a DIP socket or something like that.
Something like that.
As for OS X with floppy drives, watch out for extraneous fat that the system plops onto the disk. 1.3MB could be suddenly reduced to 1MB free space without warning.
If you want to access the internet, there have been a handful of users here and elsewhere that have made pseudo PPP networks. Basically, dial-up-like but without the modem. I'll be looking into a writeup on how to do that once a certain member gets back from spring break.
If you're finding it difficult bridging the gap between your old Mac and your new one, hit up my site and I can put whatever images you need onto 800K floppies. It'll save you a ton of time and money spent on extra hardware.
tryin to generate little $$ for your self there..
not trying to start any issue's, but how is it we post a link to freely available 6.0.8 image(from apple) (slightly modified for powerbook 140/170) and it gets snipped,
and you basically not only steal and pirate absolutely copyrighted software, but you sell it for profit, how in the hell is this allowed?
and you basically not only steal and pirate absolutely copyrighted software, but you sell it for profit, how in the hell is this allowed?
Forum rules still apply. Download links to commercially distributed software and games (no matter how old, no matter how unclear the ownership of the rights is) is forbidden.
Additionally, the 68kMLA isn't really an appropriate place to advertise a commercial service such as sales of pre-prepared floppy diskettes on a web page with automation and e-commerce.
It would be different if it really were stuff that was definitely on Apple's old software downloads, that you were doing as a one-off favor to somebody. This, like repairing eMacs in a warehouse, crosses a line.
Additionally, the 68kMLA isn't really an appropriate place to advertise a commercial service such as sales of pre-prepared floppy diskettes on a web page with automation and e-commerce.
It would be different if it really were stuff that was definitely on Apple's old software downloads, that you were doing as a one-off favor to somebody. This, like repairing eMacs in a warehouse, crosses a line.
Just a note on ethernet to localtalk bridges... Asante made them under three different product names. One was the AsantePrint. The next was the MicroAsantePrint (reduced size to card deck). The third was the AsanteTalk.
As others have mentioned, they do not bridge TCP/IP, only AppleTalk traffic. I find one extremely handy to have, but you really need a bridge machine which can run an OS old enough to use AFP, but modern enough to use TCP/IP. I'm not sure what range that is. I think it's something like 8.6 through 10.3.x or did TCP/IP sharing support start in 9.1?
They're also nice if you get an older printer which has LocalTalk built-in but lacks Ethernet (many of the HP models, e.g.).
Anyway, the thing I'm going to add, is that if you're searching for them on Ebay, you can look under those three names, but also search with the words in the name separated.
For example, I searched for "Asantetalk" and the few results I got all cost about $50 with shipping. Then I searched for "asante talk" and found several of them under $20, although one of them was sans power supply, I think.
The AsanteTalk is probably the most common. When Apple started selling the iMac, which lacked serial ports (LocalTalk) but had ethernet built in, Asante changed the MicroAsantePrint to the AsanteTalk, removed a few of the network management features present in the former, lowered the price and sold a ton of them. So the AsanteTalk probably had the most volume and was the most recently sold.
As others have mentioned, they do not bridge TCP/IP, only AppleTalk traffic. I find one extremely handy to have, but you really need a bridge machine which can run an OS old enough to use AFP, but modern enough to use TCP/IP. I'm not sure what range that is. I think it's something like 8.6 through 10.3.x or did TCP/IP sharing support start in 9.1?
They're also nice if you get an older printer which has LocalTalk built-in but lacks Ethernet (many of the HP models, e.g.).
Anyway, the thing I'm going to add, is that if you're searching for them on Ebay, you can look under those three names, but also search with the words in the name separated.
For example, I searched for "Asantetalk" and the few results I got all cost about $50 with shipping. Then I searched for "asante talk" and found several of them under $20, although one of them was sans power supply, I think.
The AsanteTalk is probably the most common. When Apple started selling the iMac, which lacked serial ports (LocalTalk) but had ethernet built in, Asante changed the MicroAsantePrint to the AsanteTalk, removed a few of the network management features present in the former, lowered the price and sold a ton of them. So the AsanteTalk probably had the most volume and was the most recently sold.
In the old Kermit days, you could type in a ridiculously long string and run EXEC to download your own copy of Kermit.
Thankfully I have never used computers without access to the internet or bulletin boards (and I am one of the older contributors here, by age). On occasions I have been saved by people popping a boot disk for a CP/M computer in the post. I have done the same for others.
8.6 supports AFP over TCP/IP if you get AppleShare IP 5.0, which was expensive.
Otherwise, 9.0 -> 9.2.2 support AFP over TCP/IP through a limited licensed built-in copy of Shareway IP Personal.
10.3.9 is the last OS to support AFP over AppleTalk. 10.4+ require AFP over TCP/IP.
Yup, I was in the same boat as you as far as not being able to do any legacy suff in Lion becasue of the lack of HFS support.
Luckily I havea a Mac Mini lying around that I wasn't using. I decided to turn it into a headless vintage suppport machine. It just sits on my desk connected to the network without a keyboard monitor or mouse. I installed 10.5 on it for HFS support. When I need to do some legacy stuff, I just share the screen with my Mac Pro and move files onto it over the network and get the legacy files off on HFS formatted Zip disks. Works like a charm, and it's so small it's not like I have a huge Mac sitting around getting in the way. I also made it that much more useful by connecting my MagicJack to it. (VoIP phone for those that don't know.)
Luckily I havea a Mac Mini lying around that I wasn't using. I decided to turn it into a headless vintage suppport machine. It just sits on my desk connected to the network without a keyboard monitor or mouse. I installed 10.5 on it for HFS support. When I need to do some legacy stuff, I just share the screen with my Mac Pro and move files onto it over the network and get the legacy files off on HFS formatted Zip disks. Works like a charm, and it's so small it's not like I have a huge Mac sitting around getting in the way. I also made it that much more useful by connecting my MagicJack to it. (VoIP phone for those that don't know.)
6.0.8 is freely available, as you say, from Apple. Legal permission to modify or re-distribute it is not.
well i didn't post the link, as i wouldn't… only because its not worth hearing it from the peanut gallery.
but do i personally think its a problem? no! but like i said, trying to avoid peanut gallery bicker from mods.
but do i personally think its a problem? no! but like i said, trying to avoid peanut gallery bicker from mods.
Seriously? "Peanut gallery bickering" - from the mods? You do know what the word mod means, right?
You seem to be operating under a number of misapprehensions about how the world works, and your importance in it. This is Cory's party - you are a guest here. He owes you exactly diddly-squat. And because he knows that internet parties sometimes attract douchecakes, he's hired us as bouncers.
The house rules are posted where everyone can see them. They're a condition of entry. You agreed to them when you signed up. If you don't like those rules, feel free to find another party. I'm sure we'll live.
On the other hand, as long as you don't piss on the carpet and pick fights with the DJ, we'll get along fine. What you don't get to do is hang around making an ass of yourself whining about what a shitty party it is.
Seriously, that's just plain rude.
You seem to be operating under a number of misapprehensions about how the world works, and your importance in it. This is Cory's party - you are a guest here. He owes you exactly diddly-squat. And because he knows that internet parties sometimes attract douchecakes, he's hired us as bouncers.
The house rules are posted where everyone can see them. They're a condition of entry. You agreed to them when you signed up. If you don't like those rules, feel free to find another party. I'm sure we'll live.
On the other hand, as long as you don't piss on the carpet and pick fights with the DJ, we'll get along fine. What you don't get to do is hang around making an ass of yourself whining about what a shitty party it is.
Seriously, that's just plain rude.
I am Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo TIRED of you BUNSEN,
bunsen please save it before i lose any level of respect for you.
Most of us have lost whatever respect we have for you. You're moody, hard to please, creepy as all-get-out, and your posts are very hard to read, as though something's not quite clicking in your brain when you get home at night, and feel the need to make the same post twice.
You can stay, but there's no automatic respect. You need to earn that by being nice, well-written, not creepy, and maybe even having useful information about Macs. (What with this being a Mac forum, and not an "opinion about forum moderators" forum.)
No comment. c
BACK ON TOPIC boys and girls
The best success I've had is using an external SCSI drive. My 8600 (tri-boot 10.2.8, 9.2.2 or 7.5.5) and my iMac (10.6.8 ) are on the Ethernet hub. So I hook the external SCSI to the 8600, copy from iMac to 8600 and then onto the external drive. Once I've copied what I want, I connect the external SCSI to the SE.
The only complication I ran into is if I have too large of a SCSI drive in the external case. 2MB is about max. Sometimes the SE argues with the external drive, particularly if it is partitioned, but I have had success with single drives. I've configured this SE to dual-boot between 6.0.8 & 7.5.5. I managed to stuff two physical drives in the case.
For a few small files, there's always Appletalk as a backup.
Just my opinion.
The best success I've had is using an external SCSI drive. My 8600 (tri-boot 10.2.8, 9.2.2 or 7.5.5) and my iMac (10.6.8 ) are on the Ethernet hub. So I hook the external SCSI to the 8600, copy from iMac to 8600 and then onto the external drive. Once I've copied what I want, I connect the external SCSI to the SE.
The only complication I ran into is if I have too large of a SCSI drive in the external case. 2MB is about max. Sometimes the SE argues with the external drive, particularly if it is partitioned, but I have had success with single drives. I've configured this SE to dual-boot between 6.0.8 & 7.5.5. I managed to stuff two physical drives in the case.
For a few small files, there's always Appletalk as a backup.
Just my opinion.
Thank you!
I think something like the exchange above is best done via private messaging.
Politics!
c
The exchange was somewhat out of place and somewhat out of character for what I have experienced thus far to be a friendly forum full of enthusiasts.
On Topic:
In terms of SCSI drives, can these be hooked up to a PC? A SCSI card needed?
Or, what I was thinking of using SCSI zip drive -> sneakernet the disk across the desk -> Parallel zip drive -> HFVExplorer or Transmac the disk. Can even use this for backing up the disk on to the PC.
Could swap the SCSI drive between the Classic 2 and the Plus to allow for different versions of stuffit.
I'm not versed in SCSI, can it act like NAS, can 2 machines daisychain onto a single drive? Does System 6/7 handle file locking well?
On Topic:
In terms of SCSI drives, can these be hooked up to a PC? A SCSI card needed?
Or, what I was thinking of using SCSI zip drive -> sneakernet the disk across the desk -> Parallel zip drive -> HFVExplorer or Transmac the disk. Can even use this for backing up the disk on to the PC.
Could swap the SCSI drive between the Classic 2 and the Plus to allow for different versions of stuffit.
I'm not versed in SCSI, can it act like NAS, can 2 machines daisychain onto a single drive? Does System 6/7 handle file locking well?
The post directly before Bunsen's was five or six days old. I would argue it was safe to say this thread was in the process of going dormant.
In the old days, this was called PostCount++ and there was a rule against it. If you don't have a comment that adds some kind of worthwhile content to the thread, don't make a post.
Please understand the rules if you're going to quote them at the administrator. The politics rule is designed to reduce the incidence of people having terrible Internet fights over different political views. If you and I favored different candidates for a particular office, and those candidates had significantly different viewpoints, for example. That rule also covers religion and "other sensitive subjects" at the discretion of the mods/admins.
In my experience, sometimes after so much private messaging and warning and temporary banning, you either have to tell somebody how it is, in a space where everybody can see, or ban them. Whenever possible, I prefer not to ban people, especially people who appear to at least have the smallest modicum of interest in the hobby. This is me trying to avoid banning somebody outright.
I try very hard to foster a friendly community. My goal is to have something that those of us with small children can leave up when they come into the room, or have on our displays when we're at work, and not worry if customers or bosses see. Unfortunately, some people don't seem interested in having that atmosphere.
Ethernet is ideal if at all possible, and it happens to be possible on almost every 68K Mac. As Sun once said, "the network is the computer." If you don't have a varied enough Mac selection (or the requisite Thursby software) to do direct file sharing with an OS X machine, run netatalk on a Linux or BSD box (or VM). It's 2012 now and there is definitely no reason for people to be doing sneakernet anymore.
Networking needs the ethernet mac adaptor.
I do have a crossover cable that could be used to share onto the Linux box, and I've been trying to fix the phone line into mission control to put the wireless router (with 4 RJ45 ports).
Sneakernet is the easiest way. In my mind the compacts were designed for the days when computers like these were usually standalone and networking / appletalk was thought of as an addon.
I do have a crossover cable that could be used to share onto the Linux box, and I've been trying to fix the phone line into mission control to put the wireless router (with 4 RJ45 ports).
Sneakernet is the easiest way. In my mind the compacts were designed for the days when computers like these were usually standalone and networking / appletalk was thought of as an addon.
I'm not sure what you've got, but the original poster has an SE/30, which can take an ethernet card. Other compacts can use SCSI-to-ethernet adapters, although I have no experience with them myself (I am mostly into NuBus machines).
If you are just trying to move files as a one-off and sneakernet is easier for that, you may have a point, but if this is to be a regular thing, a network is the proper way. Whether they were designed to be on a network or not is irrelevant unless you are trying really hard to be period-appropriate, but even then, LocalTalk was a thing at the time that Apple pushed, even if not for much more than sharing one LaserWriter between multiple machines. It may not have been commonplace among machines that ended up in homes, but almost all Macs were absolutely designed to be networked. Declaring networking to be an "addition" (whatever you mean by that) is no good reason to not make use of it.
If you are just trying to move files as a one-off and sneakernet is easier for that, you may have a point, but if this is to be a regular thing, a network is the proper way. Whether they were designed to be on a network or not is irrelevant unless you are trying really hard to be period-appropriate, but even then, LocalTalk was a thing at the time that Apple pushed, even if not for much more than sharing one LaserWriter between multiple machines. It may not have been commonplace among machines that ended up in homes, but almost all Macs were absolutely designed to be networked. Declaring networking to be an "addition" (whatever you mean by that) is no good reason to not make use of it.
Scrub my previous comment about this being a friendly community.
What I meant was that out of the box (or whatever they arrived in), for example my plus and classic 2 don't have any network interfaces. It is possible to buy SE/30 ethernet cards, SCSI to ethernet adaptors, but what I am finding is that anything apple branded be it a mac plus mouse or an ethernet adaptor seems to command a premium on ebay (and ebay seems to be the only place to obtain vintage apple gear locally unfortunately, and not even counting the usual postage which internationally can be expensive).
Yes of course they can network, and if file transfers are frequent the most elegant solution.
They had no ethernet interface out of the box, but they had localtalk.
Using the Apple Internet Router (bridges localtalk and ethernet and gives you zones) running on an LC475 as a bridge machine on my Appletalk network, I have successfully connected via localtalk to an ASIP server serving files over ethernet, and mounted a 500gb share on a Macintosh Classic II, running 7.1. The CII could see the file directory and all, despite it being an HFS+ drive. So it can be done with a little period equipment, though I confess that I have not tried to mount the same shared drive on a machine running System 6.
You'd possibly be able to accomplish the same thing using one of those little Asante bridges, or possibly Localtalk Bridge, though I have not found these to be nearly as robust as the Apple Internet Router software.
Using the Apple Internet Router (bridges localtalk and ethernet and gives you zones) running on an LC475 as a bridge machine on my Appletalk network, I have successfully connected via localtalk to an ASIP server serving files over ethernet, and mounted a 500gb share on a Macintosh Classic II, running 7.1. The CII could see the file directory and all, despite it being an HFS+ drive. So it can be done with a little period equipment, though I confess that I have not tried to mount the same shared drive on a machine running System 6.
You'd possibly be able to accomplish the same thing using one of those little Asante bridges, or possibly Localtalk Bridge, though I have not found these to be nearly as robust as the Apple Internet Router software.
I offered an answer to the question posed by this thread. There was no obligation for that answer to be friendly, specifically, but if you actually found it hostile, you may want to grow a thicker skin. Ultimately it's not my concern whether you find my comments, or this community as a whole, to be friendly, though, so do as you like.
Try posting a WTB on the LowEndMac Swap List or the Trading Post here. I've gotten some good things off of eBay, but swap lists and forums tend to be more effective and cheaper (and people tend to be more flexible about shipping, which sounds like a major concern for you). There's no getting around the fact that old computer hobbies cost money, though, and this particular one will probably get more expensive as time goes on.
Actually AppleTalk was designed into the Mac from the beginning, something other PC makers never even considered, then again they had slots for such things. So in that regard, Apple was very forward thinking in that they knew they were designing a closed box and would need to provide for some sort of expansion ... Something that is definitely more than any consumer product needed, so they clearly had an eye toward business from the beginning.
And for the money AppleTalk was a very inexpensive solution compared to PC networking of the day (though one can argue it was made up for in the price of the Mac itself). For a time, it was the cheapest, fastest, and not to mention easiest solution on the market, making the Mac very attractive to small businesses. The Achilles heal was that Apple did not have networking software in place when the LocalTalk solution was introduced, nor were there any good hard drive solutions for the networking software that did exist.
However, whether Apple intended compacts to be standalone computers, the success of the Laserwriter in 1985 cemented the importance of networking (which for the next two and half years only existed in compact Mac form), and from the SE era going forward all of the solutions being mentioned here were readily available on the market, easy to come by, and very expensive -- as were all Ethernet solutions available for any platform. Network was not cheap, either inherently due to economies of scale or technologies involved, or artificially so gouging businesses unnecessarily because they could. Either way, AppleTalk remained the least expensive way for ANY Mac (or PC for that matter) to network until file sizes and the number of users became unmanagble, and Apple began building Ethernet capabilities into the Mac, by which time the compact Mac had been discontinued -- and I'm convinced because Gil Amelio had no idea what he was doing or what the market wanted -- think about it, as an entry level computer it was basically an affordable iMac. And for the record, the Color Classic had built-in expansion slot for Ethernet, something only introduced with entry-level computers a couple of years before with the LC.
So I can only assume you mean these solutions are expensive and hard to come by now ... 20 years after the market for them has eviscerated. And in that regard, I agree that sneakernet is the best way to transfer files with the original Macs today, specifically with the ZIP drive, mainly because Ethernet requires too many intermediaries to be compatible with current Macs, and as you observed, the cost of the vintage equipment which is also hard to come by. And this works with all but the original stock 128K & 512K, for which MacTerminal is the next easiest method directly out of an Modern Mac, described here: http://mac128.com/Mac128/Mac_128_Update/Entries/2007/8/17_Easily_Transfer_Files_between_a_128K_running_System_1.0_and_OS_X_Tiger_on_an_Intel_Mac%2C_wirelessly!.html
I have a USB Zip 100 connected to my Thinkpad. And i have a SCSI Zip 100 for the mac side of things.
To transfer files from and to the disks i use hfsutils-tcltk, a package in the current and next version of Debian. To start the GUI run xhfs.
Easy.
To transfer files from and to the disks i use hfsutils-tcltk, a package in the current and next version of Debian. To start the GUI run xhfs.
Easy.
A while back, found an Asante Desktop EN/SC LAN box that connected to the SCSI port of my Classic II. Through that, I manually configured the TCP/IP settings, using my router to set up a fixed IP address. Running the Classic II on OS 7.53, Revision 2, and gaining web access through Netscape Navigator 2.02. I can access most web sites, though it's much easier and faster to go through Loband.
If you get that far, then there are all kinds of software for compact Macs on the web.
If you get that far, then there are all kinds of software for compact Macs on the web.