Socketed vs Soldered ... Fight!

if i had to guess... i would say the socketed cpu is going to preform 5 to 15% better in the Norton System info benchmarks.

video is going to preform 3 to 5% better... Ram and Hd will preform the same.

I sent Norton System Info to mcdermd, he will test and find out

Why would socketed work better? Wouldn't the possible smaller contact area create a better chance at signal not getting where it should be? I'm no electrician, but as a welder soldered Joints always acted more stable than twist connections.

As much as I'd prefer to have a socketed one, I'm putting my money on soldered.

Having a socket or not is NOT going to make a difference unless the contacts are really dirty(and then it probably does not even work). But of course you can still have cold solder joints on the soldered in CPU too. But still, if pins of your CPU are not making contact the board is likely not functioning or not functioning properly.

What may make a difference is if these boards have any other differences. You are not looking at the socket here, you are looking for different ROM or other firmware for other parts or other parts themselves being different between the two boards.

Make sure you use the same RAM when you switch boards. And no extra PDS cards!

My theory is because the pins on the socketed one are gold plated...Should make a great electrical contact. And with the ceramic package, even the chip inside might be of better quality, Cost saving is always an after thought, Ok we did it! Now how do we make it cheaper

I could be wrong but that is my guess.

My guess is the socketed one will perform higher..even if at a slight margin.

Edit: Ps:

kinda like what they did with the Classic II after the SE/30

I remember this discussion back in the '386 days. All tests run were almost identical as many other factors on the motherboard were involved. Also, no two motherboards of the same model tested identical.

I'd say no measurable difference, the contacts don't really enter into the equation, trace length might have a minimal impact.

If so, I'd put my money on the PGA having a bit more efficient pathway from MoBo to core.

It'd be difficult to come up with any difference, but having the system clock oscillator off within tolerances one way or the other would be of far greater impact. That alone would keep any two MoBos from performing identically. Test half a dozen crystals of the "same" frequency in one board and I'll bet you'll see measurable variances.

How many angels can dance on the top of a 68030? [)] ]'>

ok who is going to be the designated bookie?

I said "would be." The point it moot.

However the piccie gave me an idea where the form factors may make a quantifiable impact on performance.

Take one socketed MoBo with a single PowerCache Card and adapters for both the Proc Socket and the PDS. Test the two to see if there's a difference.

My money, all two bits of it, would be on the PGA Socket Adapter if it doesn't place the adapted proc even farther from system RAM & ROM that the PDS Adapter does.

Interesting question, but I doubt the CPU packaging makes any difference. What could make a difference is the mask version of the CPU and other differences with supporting chips. I am guessing socketed boards are earlier versions of the CPU, so they might actually be not as good since chip production usually improves as the production matures. The board layout probably changed over time to reduce costs and improve reliability with minimal impact to performance.

While doing the test you might also want to swap the ROM to remove that variable. Trying a couple boards of each version would be more statistically significant, I say this since of anyone, mcdermd might have a few of each. I can try running benchmarks on my system with the same software. Which version are you running of Norton?

I cant even believe this issue is even up for discussion. The speed of any electrical signal is only as fast as the capacitance of its substrate. And inductance too. NOT by sockets, etc...

I just went with soldered because I assumed the pins would be shorter and thus have a minutely less bit of latency.

place your bets, i nominate jt as the thread bookie,

I cant even believe this issue is even up for discussion. The speed of any electrical signal is only as fast as the capacitance of its substrate. And inductance too. NOT by sockets, etc...

Click to expand...

This. I mean, really, come on people.

The relationship between the CPU and the rest of a computer isn't like, say, the relationship between an engine and the rest of the car. You're acting as if providing a "better" connection between the CPU pins and the motherboard will be akin to boring out the intake manifold or unkinking the exhaust to eek a few more horsepower out of a given engine block. (Or to use another analogy, like substituting a larger diameter hose between a faucet and a sprinkler to get it to throw a little further.) A 68030 is a state machine synchronized with an external clock input, and it *always* does the same amount of work in response to a single tick of the clock. *IT'S DIGITAL, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD*. If the connection to the motherboard/socket is good enough for the signal to get through (without excessive noise or interference) it's going to work exactly the same. If the connection were so bad that the CPU were missing clock beats then the computer's not going to work, because the CPU will fall out of sync with signals generated by other devices on the motherboard, like RAM, and CRASH. That's it, period. End of story.

If any measurable difference is observed between two SE/30 motherboards, one with a socketed CPU and the other soldered, it's because of some other difference, like slightly variant clock crystals. For people tossing out "trace length" as justification for thinking there's something to this:

A: At the speed electricity travels in a wire you need about a foot of distance to cause a one nanosecond delay. So the extra, what, two millimeters you get with a socket vs. soldered is *incredibly insignificant*.

B: Remember that "clock" thing? Imagine, if you will, a square dance being held in a gigantic hall. What the dancers do while dancing is dictated by what they hear from a caller standing on a stage at one end of the hall, who's shouting into a microphone connected to a single powerful PA speaker. (The hall doesn't have speakers anywhere else, all the sound is coming from the one spot.) In theory, if you were to view the dance from above (and again, assuming the hall is absolutely huge) you might be able to perceive that the dancers at the far end of the hall are dancing *very slightly* out of sync with the ones right in front of the stage. However, and this is the important thing: they're not dancing any slower. They respond when they hear the call exactly like the ones in the front and do so at the same speed. They just hear it a little later.

When translating this to a computer: Unless the distance from the CPU to the devices it's talking to on the motherboard is so far that the transit time of the signals consumes all the "margin of error" there is for the devices to respond to each other the computer will behave exactly the same. If the delay does exceed that boundary then the computer won't "run slower", it simply won't work. (Unless the clock speed were reduced to the point that the delay was once again acceptable.)

My theory is because the pins on the socketed one are gold plated...Should make a great electrical contact.

Click to expand...

Thought processes like this are why outfits like Monster Cable succeed in milking idiots $50 a shot for "gold-plated gas-sealed made-by-dwarves-in-the-Black-Forest" RCA cables for digital audio. Our bits are cleaner so they sound better!

Yeah, it is a bit silly... But, I am wondering if the overall motherboard design, the sum of all the parts would perform any differently between versions. If so, any difference is probably in the noise. I have not heard of any major differences in '030 CPU masks other than a 1um to 0.8um die shrink for the 50MHz version, which would just improve thermal performance at lower speeds.

Gold plated monster cables are BOSS!

Didn't you know?

Hey there! yeah you, Mr. dino picture man, lol, Why are you taking what I am saying out of context? My point was there is going to be solid electrical connections wether

it's Socketed or Soldered.

I bet 5 bucks payable to Mcdermd, the socketed motherboard is going to be a margin faster in the video and cpu, in bench testing.

A: At the speed electricity travels in a wire you need about a foot of distance to cause a one nanosecond delay. So the extra, what, two millimeters you get with a socket vs. soldered is *incredibly insignificant*.

Click to expand...

That's why I suggested that the two different adapter types be tested with the same PowerCache Card on the Same (socketed) SE/30 MoBo. That's the only instance I can come up with where trace length variables might possibly be measured. Not that they'd be in the least significant. [)] ]'>

That changes the test to which plumbing run is shorter and am I really better off with a socketed MoBo for other than the additional space freed up by leaving the PDS vacant.

Short answer: NO!!!!

You'll have to run the test for a VERY LOOOOONNNNG TIME in each config for any measurement to exceed margin of error. I find it intriguing to figure out how long it would take for a 1.25" longer electron pipe to show any significant differential . . . but I'm lazy . . . and sick again . . .

. . . fuggedaboudit!!!!!!!!!! :sadmac:

edit: the Toothy/Nasty/Dinocerous is spot on once again, BTW . . . just give it up already. :

Cut him some slack, he kinda grows on ya once you get past that snarling, nasty, scaly carnivorous outer shell. He's really just a big teddy bear that kicks the stuffing outta' nonsensical crap like this whenever it pops up.

We will have to wait for the benchmark results. Wont we?

Um . . . not really. :-/

Well hey, If there is no difference then my buddy mcdermd is 5 bucks richer, no harm done.

Yep, and that's about as cheap a credit hour as you're likely to buy. Now, for review, re-read all the opposing commentary, mull it over a bit and . . .

Na, I don't listen as trag said... Also as he said, carry on, And that i am pretty much wrong about everything.

When I am curious about stuff i find out! That means experiment, test, ask what might be considered by some of you as " stupid ass questions "...

However as even you said (jt) just now in the Cap thread, no question is a stupid question.

I am just a do'er, get er dun kinda guy.

The things that I know how to do, I do them well. The rest is google or questions 101.

Just don't get snippy with me. I'm just average joe plumbing store IT guy.

i like your credit hour ref, i paid nothing for my College, GM paid for it all...

edit: the Toothy/Nasty/Dinocerous is spot on once again, BTW . . . just give it up already. :
Cut him some slack, he kinda grows on ya once you get past that snarling, nasty, scaly carnivorous outer shell. He's really just a big teddy bear that kicks the stuffing outta' nonsensical crap like this whenever it pops up.

Click to expand...

I saw an earlier edit of this particular post, but not quickly enough. I'm really disappointed I missed whatever a certain someone said about me.

Off Topic:

Uniserver, dude, if it will help you keep your language/blood pressure under control rest assured at this point if I reply to one of your threads I'm not talking to you, nor do I have any "personal problem" with you. (I'm sure you have your good points despite clearly having some major gaps in your scientific education and an unfortunate tendency to fling infantile insults.) I'm well aware of exactly how useful it is to waste your breath arguing with crazy, I was just attempting to educate the innocent bystanders. And if you don't like the fact that I've put you into the "crazy" category just remember: it's you who painted the picture I'm judging you by and it's the same one that everyone else sees. If you choose to keep staking your credibility on gut feelings and "attractive notions" which have no basis in reality eventually everyone's going to drop you into that same bucket.

(Mods: If you feel this needs to be deleted, go for it. I apologize ahead of time.)

lol save it.

talk to some one who cares, it aint me or my less then 5 dollar a credit hour education

Thanks gorgonops, I appreciate your comments. BTW, I don't know about gorgonops, but I am not a huge fan of Three's Company (I caught the post before it was edited and you are not missing much).

it was good... I laughed so dam hard, it was good times.

love it.

Three's Company was pretty good TV, but I liked the blonde better back when she just kept her mouth shut and drove the T-Bird around with an air of mystery. [)] ]'>

As for all the gooshy stuff, mud fights, cat slinging and tomfoolery . . .

. . . toss uniserver into another class, my crazy bucket runneth over already around here!

lol more insults. thanks!

Yup, third class here I come.

Have a nice night )

Nice Lucas ref, jt.