Thread
Powermac 6100: Internal ZIP Drive Hack
I do not own any Japanese saws, however, Should be able to manage a rectangular hole, to accommodate a zip drive.
Personally, not a fan of the powermac 6100 or any machine with same form factor.
I have this idea of having a zip disk 7.5.5 /w OT 1.3
and one loaded with MacOS 8.1
Trying to figure out if this is a bad idea…
Personally, not a fan of the powermac 6100 or any machine with same form factor.
I have this idea of having a zip disk 7.5.5 /w OT 1.3
and one loaded with MacOS 8.1
Trying to figure out if this is a bad idea…
Hi,
<$0.02>
What is it with this Anti-Floppy Movement? I know they're woefully outdated and rather unreliable compared to modern media, but still...
Isn't the point of having an old Mac (sometimes, at least) to have an old-fashioned floppy drive which can read one's old and long forgotten 400k/800k disks?
Zip is fine and good, but I like having the floppy around because, to me, it adds to the charm of having an old Mac (and yes, that includes all its weaknesses as well; people likely had to deal with all those from the moment the first floppy drives were invented).
$0.02>
Hacking an internal Zip drive into a machine which otherwise has no space for one is intriguing (and can be quite useful), so I'm not against it at all!
Just keep the floppy drive if there's no reason not to!!
To each his/her own, I suppose...
c
p.s. I'm not trying to be totally zealous about this, so if anyone has a very sound and foolproof reason for not having floppies, I'll listen
<$0.02>
What is it with this Anti-Floppy Movement? I know they're woefully outdated and rather unreliable compared to modern media, but still...
Isn't the point of having an old Mac (sometimes, at least) to have an old-fashioned floppy drive which can read one's old and long forgotten 400k/800k disks?
Zip is fine and good, but I like having the floppy around because, to me, it adds to the charm of having an old Mac (and yes, that includes all its weaknesses as well; people likely had to deal with all those from the moment the first floppy drives were invented).
$0.02>
Hacking an internal Zip drive into a machine which otherwise has no space for one is intriguing (and can be quite useful), so I'm not against it at all!
Just keep the floppy drive if there's no reason not to!!
To each his/her own, I suppose...
c
p.s. I'm not trying to be totally zealous about this, so if anyone has a very sound and foolproof reason for not having floppies, I'll listen
I've had more problems with FDDs and Media than with Zip Drives and media for the last eight or nine years, not the least of which is that a 1.44MB FD doesn't usually hold enough data to waste an I/O bay upon given any other option, especially one for removable media.
I pretty much cut the FDD cable in the Duo era. I had the external FDD from the PB100, but carried a Zip Drive in the bag if I didn't want to carry both. I made the jump to '030 and then PPC level applications with the used 230 and then a refurb 2300c, so I never had a PB with FDD until resurrecting a DOA 190 I'd picked up that was slated for other things. The first post-Duo PB was Beater, my maxed out 1400c/G3 WiFi RoadWarrior and I'm not sure if I ever even used the FDD for anything but the occasional software install.
If I need to use a floppy in any new acquisition, I test the drive first with a sacrificial floppy. There's no need to do this if a Zip has been attached or is already on board, I copy that floppy to a Hard drive on a known good system (the pet IIfx or 6360) and use Zip from then on.
I use the "internal CD" of the pet IIfx a lot more than the FDD and I need to pop the hood to do that. For anything but the evil 8500 and 840AV cases, it'd be easier to open the case up and hook up an FDD if I ever needed one. For the 6100, that's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.
I'd lopped off the blank bezel section of the borked case 6100 just before making the Zip->FDD Conversion suggestion to uni last night. Hacking a door that opens up to access a bay for general use just to keep a relic housed behind a 3.5" opening makes ZERO sense to me if I've got an internal Zip Drive available . . .
. . . or even an external drive, apparently . . .
)
I pretty much cut the FDD cable in the Duo era. I had the external FDD from the PB100, but carried a Zip Drive in the bag if I didn't want to carry both. I made the jump to '030 and then PPC level applications with the used 230 and then a refurb 2300c, so I never had a PB with FDD until resurrecting a DOA 190 I'd picked up that was slated for other things. The first post-Duo PB was Beater, my maxed out 1400c/G3 WiFi RoadWarrior and I'm not sure if I ever even used the FDD for anything but the occasional software install.
If I need to use a floppy in any new acquisition, I test the drive first with a sacrificial floppy. There's no need to do this if a Zip has been attached or is already on board, I copy that floppy to a Hard drive on a known good system (the pet IIfx or 6360) and use Zip from then on.
I use the "internal CD" of the pet IIfx a lot more than the FDD and I need to pop the hood to do that. For anything but the evil 8500 and 840AV cases, it'd be easier to open the case up and hook up an FDD if I ever needed one. For the 6100, that's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.
I'd lopped off the blank bezel section of the borked case 6100 just before making the Zip->FDD Conversion suggestion to uni last night. Hacking a door that opens up to access a bay for general use just to keep a relic housed behind a 3.5" opening makes ZERO sense to me if I've got an internal Zip Drive available . . .
. . . or even an external drive, apparently . . .
) 
jt, just so i can gather my thoughts here, why is it you think the 6100 is a turd? My hunch is, the processor emulates 68K(68020) and its a PPC, ITs a pretty wide honkin thing, rather plane case.
Even though it does alot, and its the first Powermac to have an AAUI port. It doesn't seem to do anything well.
Heck even SCSI Zip drives are kinda rare, and expensive.
I was lucky enough to get a bunch of AIO's with scsi zip's
Even though it does alot, and its the first Powermac to have an AAUI port. It doesn't seem to do anything well.
LOL,
Heck even SCSI Zip drives are kinda rare, and expensive.
I was lucky enough to get a bunch of AIO's with scsi zip's
@CC_333
You said it..."they're woefully outdated and rather unreliable"....
If we're to keep using these machine, if my kids want to use these machines when they're my age, then we need to ditch the floppies. Boards can be repaired, caps can be replaced, but when floppies go, they go. 20 years from now, what will we do? If my kids want to play Dark Castle on a Mac Plus in the year 2030, there's no way they're going to run it off a floppy. It's just not going to happen.
You said it..."they're woefully outdated and rather unreliable"....
If we're to keep using these machine, if my kids want to use these machines when they're my age, then we need to ditch the floppies. Boards can be repaired, caps can be replaced, but when floppies go, they go. 20 years from now, what will we do? If my kids want to play Dark Castle on a Mac Plus in the year 2030, there's no way they're going to run it off a floppy. It's just not going to happen.
Of course, this assumes that ZIP disks don't begin suffering from age.
20 years from now, sure floppies might be completely dead but we might also end up with piles of chopped up macs with equally useless ZIP drives hacked into them.
Floppies being so cheap and plentiful, drive maintenance being so easy and disk images being small enough, I find it hilarious that you think ZIP is a viable alternative.
20 years from now, sure floppies might be completely dead but we might also end up with piles of chopped up macs with equally useless ZIP drives hacked into them.
Floppies being so cheap and plentiful, drive maintenance being so easy and disk images being small enough, I find it hilarious that you think ZIP is a viable alternative.
I think the best thing we can do is keep on,
The SCSI to IDE/SD Card project.
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=19623
The SCSI to IDE/SD Card project.
http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=19623
There you go!
That would probably be better than hacking a Zip drive in; not only is it (potentially) less destructive, but flash media/SSDs are the wave of the future, and they will surely be around in some form for many years.
Zip, on the other hand, was wonderful for its time (and it's still a somewhat viable medium), but, like floppies, they'll succumb to old age eventually, and they will be equally as unreliable and equally as useless as a result. They're already border-line as it is (click-of-death).
And I'm by no means defending floppies as a safe and reliable technology. They're not. But perhaps Zips aren't either?
Time will tell.
c
My first at-home Mac was a 6100 DOS-Compatible. After about three months I took the useless 486 card out and put in the way too tall 8100 video board and ran it topless for years. If you want a Zip in there, get a SCSI ribbon with another connector on it and just lay it on top of the HD with the top off when necessary.
Alternately, if you don't have a video (or whatever) card on it, mount the Zip in the big horizontal card hole on the back. It'd be just like the SD slot on the back of a MacMini, only 20 years more primitive
Alternately, if you don't have a video (or whatever) card on it, mount the Zip in the big horizontal card hole on the back. It'd be just like the SD slot on the back of a MacMini, only 20 years more primitive
A tip for anyone who is considering adding something to the floppy mounting area:
Run the original floppy cable out an unobtrusive hole (on a 6100, through the bottom for example) and you can always plug in an internal floppy as an external device if you need to. The same cable carries both power and data.
Run the original floppy cable out an unobtrusive hole (on a 6100, through the bottom for example) and you can always plug in an internal floppy as an external device if you need to. The same cable carries both power and data.
MinerAl: I like your idea. It keeps the computer intact, and yet increases its capabilities.
I hate to say it, but I actually think I sympathize a little with onlyonemac. I'm not overly zealous about it (as he/she appears to be), though, so don't get all guarded and stuff against me.
On a machine which is already beyond repair, has a lousy case, etc., I don't mind doing some hacking to get it back into useful (if not untrue to the original vision of the designers) shape.
That being said, I think I'll stop while I'm ahead.
c
I hate to say it, but I actually think I sympathize a little with onlyonemac. I'm not overly zealous about it (as he/she appears to be), though, so don't get all guarded and stuff against me.
On a machine which is already beyond repair, has a lousy case, etc., I don't mind doing some hacking to get it back into useful (if not untrue to the original vision of the designers) shape.
That being said, I think I'll stop while I'm ahead.
c
No need to stop, even fanaticism at reasnable levels is just fine and dandy by this mod. O1M's troubles started and ended in that one thread, I'd prefer an amended sig, but even that's not a problem.
Just add the marketing critter's intentional limitations of the capabilities of the innards of LowEndMacs and MidRangeMacs to the hackables list and I don't think anyone would would really have any beef at all with your limits to hacking.
I reserve the right to hack anything I'd like to in the FuglyMac Series, however. }
I lopped both side off the badly borked 6100 lid. I did the HDD side to test that out before hinting to uni that the FDD needed to go.
There's no way in the world to manage hacking those spindly plastics short of hot gluing a lot of it to a wooden support form. You'd likely still break off the "neck" under the "chin" even doing it that way.
I wouldn't want to try to do a kluge like that just to retain an FDD in a CD-ROM equipped Mac. The FDD was dead as a door nail by the time CD Bays (with CDs in the majority of them) became commonplace on Macs.
If economies of scale hadn't brought about the CD revolution in time, software would have shipped on Zip Disks and every Mac past the NuBus PPCs would need to be hacked to have FDDs in them.
There's no way in the world to manage hacking those spindly plastics short of hot gluing a lot of it to a wooden support form. You'd likely still break off the "neck" under the "chin" even doing it that way.
I wouldn't want to try to do a kluge like that just to retain an FDD in a CD-ROM equipped Mac. The FDD was dead as a door nail by the time CD Bays (with CDs in the majority of them) became commonplace on Macs.
If economies of scale hadn't brought about the CD revolution in time, software would have shipped on Zip Disks and every Mac past the NuBus PPCs would need to be hacked to have FDDs in them.
Guess what? This guy wants a zip drive in his computer.
Does it matter if they are obsolete?
No. Floppies are already obsolete as well.
Personal preference beats public opinion.
A zip = ~80 floppies.
Cites:
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/sony-announces-the-death-of-the-floppy-disk/
Does it matter if they are obsolete?
No. Floppies are already obsolete as well.
Personal preference beats public opinion.
A zip = ~80 floppies.
Cites:
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/sony-announces-the-death-of-the-floppy-disk/
Before I get misinterpreted for...
I'm not saying one thing, then contradicting myself later. I'm okay with ZIP drives being fitted in a mac IF:
-The owner of the mac/computer does a clean job at the hack (NONE OF THIS!)
-If possible, the hack can reverted back to stock configuration, should Zip go TU in some horrible way or you just don't want a Zip drive anymore.
Like said, it's not OUR mac to say what can be done with. It's HIS. Our only concern is that there's been a few mac hacks which orginally looked REALLY nasty but got a lot of attention and later revisions that were a lot more cleaned up but did not get the same amout of time in the spotlight. The idea is that if it's clean from the start it's okay for future attempts to be a bit more messy.
I can't find a pic now, but I remember back in the Color Classic forum on applefritter's hey day, there was some dude on eBay who'd put a Zip drive into a CC by cutting out a nice .75"x4" hole where the floppy slot used to be and flush mounting a regular internal Zip there. It made those poor CCs even hideous-er. Seems like he was selling them for a couple hundred even back then. Don't know if anybody ever bought one.
Of course this was back when a Zip drive was a legit upgrade to a still useful machine. I recall buying a 128MB USB thumb drive around then for $130 and thinking it was a steal to get close to the 1M for $1 range.
I like the way he almost got it to line up straight.
More interesting choice of tools from the Dollar Store. That coping saw is designed to cut curves for butting the inside corner joints of mouldings, wood butchers miter inside corners on a chop saw, but with modern drywall instead of plaster on lath, it works well enough.
Thank goodness this butcher didn't own a Japanese pull saw or a Dremel Tool . . .
. . . how well do blood stains wash off a Mac case? :?:
edit:
[mod mode]
Ordinarily, we probably shouldn't be ridiculing a hack with this much . . . dunno, hard to put a finger on the right word for it . . .
. . . but when the perpetrator reviews something like this with the refrain: "yuck, oh well . . ." I think it's probably fair game.
I'll give him an A for effort and the stones to try a first hack and document such results on the WWW. We all learn something from the process of making, and admitting to making, mistakes.
[/mod mode]
I almost hate to admit it, but it's beginning to grow on me . . .
. . . if he'd cut the case up into a few good sized, really nasty lookin' chunks, drill badly spaced holes and stitch it up like a baseball . . .
. . . I think I could live with it, especially if he painted each chunk to match different case colors from later Macs. }
More interesting choice of tools from the Dollar Store. That coping saw is designed to cut curves for butting the inside corner joints of mouldings, wood butchers miter inside corners on a chop saw, but with modern drywall instead of plaster on lath, it works well enough.
Thank goodness this butcher didn't own a Japanese pull saw or a Dremel Tool . . .
. . . how well do blood stains wash off a Mac case? :?:
edit:
[mod mode]
Ordinarily, we probably shouldn't be ridiculing a hack with this much . . . dunno, hard to put a finger on the right word for it . . .
. . . but when the perpetrator reviews something like this with the refrain: "yuck, oh well . . ." I think it's probably fair game.
I'll give him an A for effort and the stones to try a first hack and document such results on the WWW. We all learn something from the process of making, and admitting to making, mistakes.
[/mod mode]
I almost hate to admit it, but it's beginning to grow on me . . .
. . . if he'd cut the case up into a few good sized, really nasty lookin' chunks, drill badly spaced holes and stitch it up like a baseball . . .
. . . I think I could live with it, especially if he painted each chunk to match different case colors from later Macs. }
He'd better start trying to give a bit of it up.
Just buy a second Mac with a Zip drive installed, tear it out, bondo the hole in the bezel to the size of a floppy slot, install the freakin' FDD and get it out of your system already, kid!
[mod mode]
No pestering the other hackers, you've made your point. Keep this nonsense restricted to my threads, in your sig, and paste a smile on it! LAST warning!
[/mod mode]
Actually some us think onlyonemac has got a point, though it is being somewhat obsessive-compulsively pursued. (And what isn't around here?)
However, onlyonemac, best let it rest. What you need to know is that not everyone here is into hacks and modifications. Discussions ebb and flow over the months and years. At the moment, there is much talk of hacks, partly owing to a few vocal members. The dynamics will change eventually.
In the meantime, concentrate on the threads that interest you, most likely those that are about stock machines, setups, software and restorations. Add some of your own. I'd say what you most need are some new machines to restore, and for that, this forum is still the best place to find help anywhere on the web.
However, onlyonemac, best let it rest. What you need to know is that not everyone here is into hacks and modifications. Discussions ebb and flow over the months and years. At the moment, there is much talk of hacks, partly owing to a few vocal members. The dynamics will change eventually.
In the meantime, concentrate on the threads that interest you, most likely those that are about stock machines, setups, software and restorations. Add some of your own. I'd say what you most need are some new machines to restore, and for that, this forum is still the best place to find help anywhere on the web.
If there was ever a reason for me to remove my Zip mod in my SE, I have a spare bezel.
I left a trail of Cheerios to find my way back if need be. However, having a the zip drive inside is nice, as I don't have that huge wall wart to power it and I can literally just pick this thing up and go, only one cord from the wall, or honestly since its the universal cord, I don't even need to go that far..
Now back onto the 6100:
Uniserver: are you good with plastic work? I mean bondo, or epoxy, resin, whatever?
Maybe you could cut out the zip section of a g3 AIO and "replace" the floppy slot and fuze it back together?
or just find a zip bezel from a
g3 desktop?
I left a trail of Cheerios to find my way back if need be. However, having a the zip drive inside is nice, as I don't have that huge wall wart to power it and I can literally just pick this thing up and go, only one cord from the wall, or honestly since its the universal cord, I don't even need to go that far..
Now back onto the 6100:
Uniserver: are you good with plastic work? I mean bondo, or epoxy, resin, whatever?
Maybe you could cut out the zip section of a g3 AIO and "replace" the floppy slot and fuze it back together?
or just find a zip bezel from a
g3 desktop?
Filing out the existing FDD opening is the only way to avoid painting the case.
Doing a perfect job of fusing is near impossible, even when the parts align just so.
A chemical weld, glue bond or a plastic welding bead still shows.
When you sand any of the parts off to equalize levels and contours of the surfaces the texture is removed from those surfaces.
There has been no successful texture renewal process documented to my knowledge.
BTW, Bondo for auto body work is a terrible choice, there are activated fillers with the sanding characteristics of construction materials that are far more suitable for working ABS case parts these days.
@ beachycove: I agree with you, he has a very good point . . . up to a point . . . he has gone far beyond that point . . .
We've been in touch in PM and in his thread, which was locked because he pushed it too far even there. I tried to leave it unlocked to preserve his bully pulpit, but it didn't work out that way. He can hound me all he wants in my threads, so long as he puts a friendly face on it, I've got a thick skin. However he's agreed to stop beating his drum in other hackers threads, that was the deal.
[mod mode]
The good natured kidding of, and about, O1M that has been taking place is beginning to feel a little less good natured, keep it civil gang.
Extremism from either side of this issue will not be tolerated.
[/mod mode]
Doing a perfect job of fusing is near impossible, even when the parts align just so.
A chemical weld, glue bond or a plastic welding bead still shows.
When you sand any of the parts off to equalize levels and contours of the surfaces the texture is removed from those surfaces.
There has been no successful texture renewal process documented to my knowledge.
BTW, Bondo for auto body work is a terrible choice, there are activated fillers with the sanding characteristics of construction materials that are far more suitable for working ABS case parts these days.
@ beachycove: I agree with you, he has a very good point . . . up to a point . . . he has gone far beyond that point . . .
We've been in touch in PM and in his thread, which was locked because he pushed it too far even there. I tried to leave it unlocked to preserve his bully pulpit, but it didn't work out that way. He can hound me all he wants in my threads, so long as he puts a friendly face on it, I've got a thick skin. However he's agreed to stop beating his drum in other hackers threads, that was the deal.
[mod mode]
The good natured kidding of, and about, O1M that has been taking place is beginning to feel a little less good natured, keep it civil gang.
Extremism from either side of this issue will not be tolerated.
[/mod mode]
I don't condone bondo for this either, I just know case modders have been using it somewhat often over at modders-inc.com.
I have used a two part "mighty putty" clone made by loctite on my mac book, and it dries white. It isn't factory perfect but its a pretty good texture afterwards.
I think it's a form of epoxy.
I have used a two part "mighty putty" clone made by loctite on my mac book, and it dries white. It isn't factory perfect but its a pretty good texture afterwards.
I think it's a form of epoxy.