System Software Install Issue on Mac Classic II

I tried using disk tools to initialize the hard drive, but disk tools tells me that there is no useable scsi drive available.

Is this a failed hard drive or could it be something else? Also there is a very faint hissing noise when I am running the computer.

(I have tantalum capacitors on order and plan to re cap the motherboard as a precautionary measure).

What make/model/size of hard drive do you have in there now? Could be any number of issues... do you have another hard drive you could throw in there to help eliminate some possibilities?

I have the stock/original Apple hard drive...   I don't have another 50-pin HD that I can try unfortunately.  A number of issues, ..was afraid of that.  Are there any common issues or things I should before I assume its the HD?

This MAC was in storage for at least 10+ years and it did take a bit of finessing to get the drive to spin initially.  

Yeah, that's a bad sign right there... so if that's one of those Quantum drives, the head stop is probably just sticky goo now. There are ways to fix these things, with some probability of success. Charles did a nice right-up here:

https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/23871-vintage-hd-stickysolutionlazymans-40mb-80mb-160mb-quantum-prodrive-els/?hl=quantum

It may be time for a new drive though, and there are options for that. SCSI2SD, or one of Charles really fast 10k drives, or even an older replacement. You could post a WTB in the for sale section. Compnurd or MacDrone probably have a bunch.

Thank you,

I may give the rubber stopper technique a try.

Should I need a new HD,

Do I need to load software onto any new drive for it to be recognized? Or will most any 50pin SCSI drive work ...just plug and play sort of speak?

I'll post in the WTB section, 
I also saw that Uniserver sells drives w/ the OS already installed (which I don't need) for about $55 plus shipping (if I can just plug in a 50pin SCSI drive they can be had on eBay for $20 or less which is a lot cheaper).

If it's not an Apple drive, you would need to format it with the 7.5.3 Patched Image here:

http://maccaps.com/MacCaps/DIY_Information.html

Uniserver's drives really are pretty awesome. I have one and it's in my IIcx now, but I move it around. You may need a drive adapter to have it fit in your Classic II. I am not totally sure. But they are pretty cheap on Amazon or ebay.

I personally would not approve of putting a 10k drive inside a compact mac. At least I wouldn't put one in my own mac.

They get along fine with larger machines, but 10k drives generate more heat and draw more power then normal drives. Put it in a external enclosure if you can.

Maybe the Classic II is beefier and could handle it, but it's definitely not something I would put in a SE or SE/30.

Thanks guys! 

So close to getting my Classic II fully functional! It's been a long road ...i found it in the attic where it had been for over 10 years. I am so close! 

Okay, I may try one of uniservers drives for the extra $$ it may be worth the cost rather than screwing around on ebay to save $20 or so.

Dunno, I ran the 10k drive in my SE/30 and it was fine.  Uniserver's are 2.5" though... I wouldn't throw a 3.5" there, as you said they get hot.

Thanks going to contact Uniserver about a 2.5" drive.  

Ahh I see. A 2.5 drive has the same connector as a 3.5 one? With IDE drives the connector was smaller and combined the power pins. SATA only changes in form factor for optical drives. Wasn't sure about SCSI though as I've never personally seen or used one in that form factor. That and the newer 68/80 pin drives I definitely have no experience with.

I think the 50 pin drives change in pin count for the 2.5 drives. I just don't know about the newer 68/80 pin SCSI drives...

Yeah a 2.5 drive should be fine then, they are smaller and probably have a smaller heat and power footprint compared to the larger 3.5 ones. Hard to imagine how they managed to fit a 10k drive into a laptop sized drive.

yup, not only that but they only consume 500ma on the +5 rail and only 700ma on the 12v rail.

and they ultra quiet as well,   

Okay, looking to all of you for help.

I am still having the same issue,

that is the flashing ? folder on startup.  Basically my hard drive is not recognized because it does not appear to be powering up.

This issue has plagued this computer since I undertook this restoration project.

Here is what I've done:

1) Replaced PRAM battery w/ a brand new battery -still same issue after startup

2) Replaced ALL capacitors on the motherboard ...after doing that, still the flashing ? folder at starup

3) Purchased new hard drive from "Uniserver" (thank you)  -plugged in and still had the same issue

4) Replaced ALL capacitors on the logic board, -same issue.

This computer has a ton of new parts in it and once I get it going I feel like it will run for a very long time.  Yet just can't get the hard drive to spin.  Suggestions/Ideas?

I read somewhere that someone had a somewhat similar issue, the culprit was a 6pin connector of some sort on the logic board? ..

I found a similar issue on another tbread, "QP1" on the analog board was the issue.

"Problem Solved : thank you Guys , replaced QP1 with CNY75B 023 A TFK4 0883 now Classic II is back to life !"

I may try replacing this part, does anyone know where I may find a replacement?

Found this:

Would this work as a suitable replacent?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-pcs-CNY75GB-Optocouplers-DIP-CTR-100-min-14A1-/361399391980?hash=item54251516ec

..Okay, one more thought after sleeping on this. 

Wondering if everything is actually find w/ my hardware.

I did verify that the hard drive is receiving power ..so it seems that all the connectors to the drive are fine.

The computer will boot off a floppy disk ..i can use disk tools but it does not see "a suitable scsi drive".

So could this be a software related issue? I have the drive that Charles sent me, -so I am assuming that drive is good.  

Is there some startup sequence I can try to get my MAC to recongize that there is a hard drive? ...I think maybe I should rule out software issues before I start replacing more hardware on this thing.

..here is what is odd,

I tried installing the OS as it asked and it recognized the name of my hard drive "Eric" ...how is that? 

(see photo),

of course after successfully installing the OS it goes right back to the flashing ? folder.

..that was w/ the old/original hard drive (not the new one that charles sent me)

What happens when you boot from the 7.5.3 Boot Disk Image /w 7.5.3 (Patched) HD SC Setup found here? Does it see either your hard drive, or the new one, when you run the Drive setup?

I have not tried that,

I will get that onto a floppy and try it out !  ...i'll post my results in a few days.  (thanks)  

Did you check your termination and drive #?

Did you check your termination and drive #?

Click to expand...

I left everything as it was originally,

BUT tonight I plan on checking that out as well.

I've been so focused on the hardware side of this MAC that I am only now beginning to look at software issues.  

-actually since I replaced my motherboard it may have a different ID than the original hard drive that was in the machine AND the new hard drive i purchased.  ...okay, good thing for me to check out.  thanks!

Okay, played with this some more this evening:

I put the original HD in, on startup it spins up then stops.  I believe that the computer is looking for a startup disk, hence why it is spinning.  -but passes and spins it down once it determines it is not a suitable drive or unrecognized. But it is spinning up initially.  Just after that the screen goes back to the flashing ? folder.

I then swapped Charles's HD back in, (the 2.5" drive). I do not hear it spin up (but maybe it is a quiet drive)?? I know my laptop's HD is really difficult to hear.  I do notice that the top of the new 2.5" HD gets warm to the touch ...so it is definitely getting power.

I also tried restarting w/ extensions turned off (held shift key down).

I zapped the PRAM again.

-----------

so tonight I didn't have any luck.  Next I will try that 7.5.3 patched boot up disk from a floppy.  Yet that may have to wait a few days, as I have some other work related things to tend to.  

as a side note, I have an extra motherboard that is bad, but some parts may be fine, ...i read that there is a "SCSI controller"?? Not sure what this is or what it looks like, but I could swap some hardware parts from my other motherboard if there are known parts that fail over time? ...so that is an option.  

any further recommendations welcomed!

Does the drive still spin down if you power it on without the SCSI cable connected? if it does, then there's a problem with the drive. The old drives all should remain spinning as far as I know.

Even with the cable attached it shouldn't be spinning down. I have a bad drive myself, but it remains powered up and spinning even though the Mac gave up trying to boot from it. It doesn't tell drives to spin down last I checked. At least the Macintosh SE line doesn't. (I don't think any of the compact line does. Controllers telling the drive to spin down is more of a power saving feature and none of the old macs had much in the way of power saving features)

As for the 2.5 drive, it may not be terminated properly being that it sounds like you are using a 80/68 to 50 pin adapter on it. Also try using Lido. It seems my dead drive and gave me a useful error code that narrowed the problem to the drive and not the cable/scsi controller. If the 2.5 drive isn't terminated properly, Lido will give you a SCSI arbitration failed error. I forget the exact message, but I believe Lido will give you a clear error that can indicate a termination issue. If the SCSI bus is bad Lido might also display an error for that.

Although I may still attempt to format mine once my mouse arrives (as I can't navigate the program without a mouse. ). My drive had a head crash due to it's age. (it was inactive for a long time judging from the fact the previous owner said it was still working last time he used it but had it in storage for more then a decade)

Despite that, the drive does not power down even when connected to the Macintosh SE that boots to the flashing floppy disk icon. So your drive should not be powering down. There appears to be a serious hardware fault like a stuck head. Although some models that had a head crash might power down after failing to read the special area before track 0. Mine doesn't power down with that problem though.

Either way, if Lido fails to see/format your drive, a patched version of one of Apples official tools won't help.

Thank-you, this is extremely helpful.

I will try what your recommending. As for terminating the new HD, is there a proper way I should be doing that? I can post a photo this evening. My new HD has a jumper at ID 2 and towards the opposite end of the pins. -a photo may help here.

Thanks, not quite ready to give up on this old Mac.

Definitely give Lido a shot, as Apache Thunder pointed out... it's very useful.

Thanks,

For using Lido, do I install it on a floppy with bootable system software? How does that work? I could copy it onto a disk tools floppy which I can boot from. -would that work?

Lido won't fit on a floppy with both system software and other disktools. So just make a bootable floppy and put Lido on it. You won't have much room for anything else on that floppy.

So just make a bootable floppy and put Lido on it. You won't have much room for anything else on that floppy. 

Click to expand...

-perfect! (thank you for your help).

by the way have you read "Ready Player One"?  Read it several months ago, -it is partly responsible for my obsession with getting my old Mac running.

Don't think I've read that one. My main reason for getting back into vintage macs is simply because I used to use them when I as a child, so sentimental reasons.

-Yes sentimental reasons for me too.  This MAC was my MAC that I purchased back in 1992ish ...I had just graduated college a year or so earlier.

But the book is what reminded me of "that old MAC" that was up in the garage.  

Quick question, -and looking ahead if I can't solve this issue.

Would an iomega Zip drive work as a startup disk? Have a dedicated zip drive as my startup disk.  I remember using one (but not as a startup drive) back in the day w/ my Power PC ...I think they worked pretty well.  

Yes, zip will work

-Thanks, good to know that I WILL be able to use this MAC then.  

I recently posted a thread in the conquests thread. It shows me booting a Macintosh SE off a zip disk. So you can definitely use one as your boot drive. Though mine now has a working hard-drive so that's what I use to boot it. The bootable zip disk I made has verious versions of MacOS installers on it. Something I plan to use with any additional Macs I plan to acquire.

Zip drives are only slightly slower then the hard-drives of the period and on an SE or Classic I would think the difference wouldn't be that noticeable.

So if you are worried it would take as long too boot from one as it does a traditional floppy disk...don't. They are much faster then floppy disks.

eR1c said:

-Thanks, good to know that I WILL be able to use this MAC then.  

Click to expand...

Well, hopefully it won't come to that. Post a picture of the adapter you got with the 10k drive. I know variants exist... some with active termination, some without. It would be good from a troubleshooting perspective to know exactly what you got.

Thanks for your help guys.

I have confirmed that both the original HD and the new 2.5" HD spin up then power down.

I am going to try Lido tomorrow.

In the meantime here are a few photos of my new drive. I tried powering on with the jumper at various positions (what is shown is how it arrived).

Update, 

I went back to my motherboard, ...it is dirty and am carefully and slowly taking my time to clean it per suggestions from several members.  I am giving it the wash and scrub, so far it is looking really nice.  There was a lot of crap that came off the board and the contacts look really nice so far, ...I can see clearly between each on especially on the SCSI chip where it was previously almost a solid mass between each contact.  

Next I am going to spend an hour or so going over every single trace and connection w/ a high powered eye piece to look for any suspicious connections.

THEN it's lido if that doesn't get this computer happy to boot up.

(I have lido ready to go).

Okay, no dice.  

I also tried attaching just the power cord to the HD, -removing the SCSI cable.  It does the same thing -powers up the HD at startup then spins back down.

I've cleaned the MB really well, and the Analog board.

It's going to take me a bit of time to make a bootable disk from my PC that will work on the MAC w/ Lido on it. (need to read up on how to do that). (I have a USB floppy drive).

any other suggestions before I continue down the path of the boot drive/lido?  Is there any hardware component that would cause this spin up then down?

HA, making a bootable floppy with lido from PC that will work on this old MAC is proving to be a serious challenge.  ...not easy!

so the saga continues.

I am still working on getting my MAC Classic II working.

Where I stand now:

Analog Board has been recapped, Motherboard has been cleaned and recapped (w/ Tantalum capacitors), and I have a brand new HD w/ system 7.5 (purchased from Charles -I believe he runs Maccaps.com).  My MAC starts up but won't boot off HD, flashing ? folder and hangs.  

Next Step:

A fellow user on this board has offered to send me a disk w/ a bootable OS and Lido installed (Thank you)!! -as I am having a bear of a time getting this to work going from my PC's floppy to Mac (i get that there are formatting issues, i've tried a variety of app's w/ no luck).

Question:

I found out about this product, Floppy Emuluator from "Big Mess o' Wires".  It appears that you can plug this into the LB of your computer (on the outside/back of machine).  This bypasses SCSI which I like (as I haven't ruled out that I have a bad SCSI chip on my LB).  Has anyone used this product, this sounds like a viable option, ...even if I get my MAC running on its own, I love the idea of being able to copy files from my PC to my MAC this way ...would tha be possible?  Seems like I could boot off a disk in my floppy drive and then load up whatever programs I want off of this emulator?? -is that correct?

thanks!

um good board?  caps replaced?  if not that will always be the first place to check, especially with classics.  Also since no battery my try and let it flash for a minute and use the buttons on the side to reboot.  I call it a double tap as your basically keeping the power in the computer so it does not forget it settings.

floppy emu is a great device and it attaches to the floppy port.  go to his web site, he can send it with a bunch of software on it i think.

um good board?  caps replaced?  if not that will always be the first place to check, especially with classics.  Also since no battery my try and let it flash for a minute and use the buttons on the side to reboot.  I call it a double tap as your basically keeping the power in the computer so it does not forget it settings.

 

Click to expand...

Yes, the board I believe is good, well can't confirm the that the SCSI chip is good.  This board allows me to boot off the floppy, produces sound and a good clear picture.  When booted off the floppy I can access and use all the app's included on the disk tools disk I have.  I cleaned and re-capped this board myself.  It performed the same before and after the re-cap.  I only re-capped as a preventative measure. 

No battery? I do have a battery on my LB, it has a brand new PRAM battery that I put in it.  The battery is brand new, I also tested w/ a meter and it shows correct power.  I've restarted my machine w/ and w/o the battery installed on the LB, same issue.  

Buttons on the side? ...are you suggesting that I tap those buttons as I restart the machine? hmmm? 

I did zap the PRAM and tried starting w/ extensions off, etc...  pretty much tried all the usual starting techniques ...but haven't heard about the "start and double tap" one. 

I believe my issues are either a software issue (hence why I have Lido on the way), or a hardware issue, if hardware I would assume that it is related to the SCSI controller.

REGARDLESS,

since I am able to boot just fine off my floppy drive, 

It would seem that floppy emu would be a good way to go (whether I get my SCSI issues sorted or not) ...seems like a useful device either way?

floppy emu is a great device and it attaches to the floppy port.  go to his web site, he can send it with a bunch of software on it i think.

Click to expand...

Thanks! Yes, I saw that he offers a SD card w/ all the usual software included.  

I think this may be a purchase in the near future!

UPDATE:

Okay, 

Got my Mac working! 

I had suspected that I had a SCSI issue as two drives were not seen by system 7 HD setup tool or 7.5.3 setup tools. 

A member on this board, MJ313 sold me a vintage but known working HD w/ system 7 on it.  I installed that and it booted right up. (thank you MJ313)!

So, I now have a near fully functional Mac Classic II (I say nearly because I no longer have sound after my re-cap).  --so I will be looking into that next, but that should be easy I assume.  Obviously I put one of my caps in a bit sloppy.

Okay, 

so the issue as to why I couldn't get my computer to recognize the HD was because I had a bad HD.  The original apple HD went south.  The 10gig HD I purchased from Maccaps for some reason would not boot.  Not saying it's Maccaps, but that HD would not be recognized by my machine, I couldn't re-format it either using two versions of system HD setup tools.  I tried every ID and still no luck.  So i'll work w/ that HD w/ a modern computer and see if I can't get it formatted and running (but thats for later).  For now my Mac Classic II runs great and has had the motherboard and analog board re-capped.  Should be good for a long time.  I've also cleaned my case, keyboard and mouse.  There is a small amount of yellowing, but I kind of like it that way.  

Thanks to everyone for all of your help and private messages w/ tips and tricks! 

okay, going to go look for what could be causing my lack of sound.  

Here is a photo showing my Mac booting off the HD !!! -what a glorious site this was for me.  

Congrats!

Thanks XBHS1997 ...

I wasn't expecting this to boot up after so many disappointments.  I flipped the power switch, walked back into the kitchen and made my coffee.  Came back out about 10mins later and was like what the heck! Barely had time to play with it before I had to get ready for work. 

Okay, now I think i'll turn it into an aquarium.  

-JK, ...i cringe everytime I see one of those.  Wasn't going to let that happen to this one.

Hahaha yes, I imagine!

-JK, ...i cringe everytime I see one of those.  Wasn't going to let that happen to this one.

Click to expand...

Same... Gotta save these old Macs!

eR1c said:

Okay, now I think i'll turn it into an aquarium.  

-JK, ...i cringe everytime I see one of those.  Wasn't going to let that happen to this one.

Click to expand...

FLYING TOASTERS!!!!!

At least itll use the machine for that

Flying toasters!!! Ha! -awesome.

That generic document icon next to "System Software" on the lower portion of the About This Macintosh window (on the same line as 1,225k and the progress bar thingy) is a little odd.

But at least it's working!

Congratulations!!

c

He probably just needs to rebuild the desktop

Probably. I forgot about that!

c

I believe that went away, probably after I rebuilt the desktop (which i did do). But now you've got me thinking that I need to go double check that out.

It's been like a week now, the computer is running great. Have left it on for several hours w the screen saver, used lots of apps and played some games. All seems well.

okay, i verified that icon w/ the document graphic seems to have sorted itself out, I now have the mac icon in its place.  That screenshot was about 30seconds in on the first startup of this machine since about 1998 or so.  I'll cut it some slack for not displaying every graphic correctly ....But I did "rebuild the desktop" after that install and all seems well.  

I've  been using my Mac, and specifically "Macwrite 3.0"  for some inventory and notes work in my workshop.  Its proving to be very useful, and I love not having the distraction of emails and IM's popping up on me.

Congrats on the Classic II Rescue!

I own one I saved from the trash last Spring/Summer, and despite it's limitations, it's basically a LCII with a 9in B/W Monitor. One can do a lot with an LC II! It was sad seeing it in the trash, really. I'm glad I rescued that one.

I own one I saved from the trash last Spring/Summer, and despite it's limitations, it's basically a LCII with a 9in B/W Monitor. One can do a lot with an LC II! It was sad seeing it in the trash, really. I'm glad I rescued that one.

Click to expand...

Wow, that is great to hear you saved one from it's ultimate demise. Yes, I always keep a lookout for vintage Mac's at yard sales as I drive by.

My Classic II has been getting a lot of use, it is a solid machine now, and runs great.