System Software Install Issue on Mac Classic II

I tried using disk tools to initialize the hard drive, but disk tools tells me that there is no useable scsi drive available.

Is this a failed hard drive or could it be something else? Also there is a very faint hissing noise when I am running the computer.

(I have tantalum capacitors on order and plan to re cap the motherboard as a precautionary measure).

What make/model/size of hard drive do you have in there now? Could be any number of issues... do you have another hard drive you could throw in there to help eliminate some possibilities?

I have the stock/original Apple hard drive...   I don't have another 50-pin HD that I can try unfortunately.  A number of issues, ..was afraid of that.  Are there any common issues or things I should before I assume its the HD?

This MAC was in storage for at least 10+ years and it did take a bit of finessing to get the drive to spin initially.  

Yeah, that's a bad sign right there... so if that's one of those Quantum drives, the head stop is probably just sticky goo now. There are ways to fix these things, with some probability of success. Charles did a nice right-up here:

https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/23871-vintage-hd-stickysolutionlazymans-40mb-80mb-160mb-quantum-prodrive-els/?hl=quantum

It may be time for a new drive though, and there are options for that. SCSI2SD, or one of Charles really fast 10k drives, or even an older replacement. You could post a WTB in the for sale section. Compnurd or MacDrone probably have a bunch.

Thank you,

I may give the rubber stopper technique a try.

Should I need a new HD,

Do I need to load software onto any new drive for it to be recognized? Or will most any 50pin SCSI drive work ...just plug and play sort of speak?

I'll post in the WTB section, 
I also saw that Uniserver sells drives w/ the OS already installed (which I don't need) for about $55 plus shipping (if I can just plug in a 50pin SCSI drive they can be had on eBay for $20 or less which is a lot cheaper).

If it's not an Apple drive, you would need to format it with the 7.5.3 Patched Image here:

http://maccaps.com/MacCaps/DIY_Information.html

Uniserver's drives really are pretty awesome. I have one and it's in my IIcx now, but I move it around. You may need a drive adapter to have it fit in your Classic II. I am not totally sure. But they are pretty cheap on Amazon or ebay.

I personally would not approve of putting a 10k drive inside a compact mac. At least I wouldn't put one in my own mac.

They get along fine with larger machines, but 10k drives generate more heat and draw more power then normal drives. Put it in a external enclosure if you can.

Maybe the Classic II is beefier and could handle it, but it's definitely not something I would put in a SE or SE/30.

Thanks guys! 

So close to getting my Classic II fully functional! It's been a long road ...i found it in the attic where it had been for over 10 years. I am so close! 

Okay, I may try one of uniservers drives for the extra $$ it may be worth the cost rather than screwing around on ebay to save $20 or so.

Dunno, I ran the 10k drive in my SE/30 and it was fine.  Uniserver's are 2.5" though... I wouldn't throw a 3.5" there, as you said they get hot.

Thanks going to contact Uniserver about a 2.5" drive.  

Ahh I see. A 2.5 drive has the same connector as a 3.5 one? With IDE drives the connector was smaller and combined the power pins. SATA only changes in form factor for optical drives. Wasn't sure about SCSI though as I've never personally seen or used one in that form factor. That and the newer 68/80 pin drives I definitely have no experience with.

I think the 50 pin drives change in pin count for the 2.5 drives. I just don't know about the newer 68/80 pin SCSI drives...

Yeah a 2.5 drive should be fine then, they are smaller and probably have a smaller heat and power footprint compared to the larger 3.5 ones. Hard to imagine how they managed to fit a 10k drive into a laptop sized drive.

yup, not only that but they only consume 500ma on the +5 rail and only 700ma on the 12v rail.

and they ultra quiet as well,   

Okay, looking to all of you for help.

I am still having the same issue,

that is the flashing ? folder on startup.  Basically my hard drive is not recognized because it does not appear to be powering up.

This issue has plagued this computer since I undertook this restoration project.

Here is what I've done:

1) Replaced PRAM battery w/ a brand new battery -still same issue after startup

2) Replaced ALL capacitors on the motherboard ...after doing that, still the flashing ? folder at starup

3) Purchased new hard drive from "Uniserver" (thank you)  -plugged in and still had the same issue

4) Replaced ALL capacitors on the logic board, -same issue.

This computer has a ton of new parts in it and once I get it going I feel like it will run for a very long time.  Yet just can't get the hard drive to spin.  Suggestions/Ideas?

I read somewhere that someone had a somewhat similar issue, the culprit was a 6pin connector of some sort on the logic board? ..

I found a similar issue on another tbread, "QP1" on the analog board was the issue.

"Problem Solved : thank you Guys , replaced QP1 with CNY75B 023 A TFK4 0883 now Classic II is back to life !"

I may try replacing this part, does anyone know where I may find a replacement?

Found this:

Would this work as a suitable replacent?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-pcs-CNY75GB-Optocouplers-DIP-CTR-100-min-14A1-/361399391980?hash=item54251516ec

..Okay, one more thought after sleeping on this. 

Wondering if everything is actually find w/ my hardware.

I did verify that the hard drive is receiving power ..so it seems that all the connectors to the drive are fine.

The computer will boot off a floppy disk ..i can use disk tools but it does not see "a suitable scsi drive".

So could this be a software related issue? I have the drive that Charles sent me, -so I am assuming that drive is good.  

Is there some startup sequence I can try to get my MAC to recongize that there is a hard drive? ...I think maybe I should rule out software issues before I start replacing more hardware on this thing.

..here is what is odd,

I tried installing the OS as it asked and it recognized the name of my hard drive "Eric" ...how is that? 

(see photo),

of course after successfully installing the OS it goes right back to the flashing ? folder.

..that was w/ the old/original hard drive (not the new one that charles sent me)

What happens when you boot from the 7.5.3 Boot Disk Image /w 7.5.3 (Patched) HD SC Setup found here? Does it see either your hard drive, or the new one, when you run the Drive setup?

I have not tried that,

I will get that onto a floppy and try it out !  ...i'll post my results in a few days.  (thanks)  

Did you check your termination and drive #?

Did you check your termination and drive #?

Click to expand...

I left everything as it was originally,

BUT tonight I plan on checking that out as well.

I've been so focused on the hardware side of this MAC that I am only now beginning to look at software issues.  

-actually since I replaced my motherboard it may have a different ID than the original hard drive that was in the machine AND the new hard drive i purchased.  ...okay, good thing for me to check out.  thanks!

Okay, played with this some more this evening:

I put the original HD in, on startup it spins up then stops.  I believe that the computer is looking for a startup disk, hence why it is spinning.  -but passes and spins it down once it determines it is not a suitable drive or unrecognized. But it is spinning up initially.  Just after that the screen goes back to the flashing ? folder.

I then swapped Charles's HD back in, (the 2.5" drive). I do not hear it spin up (but maybe it is a quiet drive)?? I know my laptop's HD is really difficult to hear.  I do notice that the top of the new 2.5" HD gets warm to the touch ...so it is definitely getting power.

I also tried restarting w/ extensions turned off (held shift key down).

I zapped the PRAM again.

-----------

so tonight I didn't have any luck.  Next I will try that 7.5.3 patched boot up disk from a floppy.  Yet that may have to wait a few days, as I have some other work related things to tend to.  

as a side note, I have an extra motherboard that is bad, but some parts may be fine, ...i read that there is a "SCSI controller"?? Not sure what this is or what it looks like, but I could swap some hardware parts from my other motherboard if there are known parts that fail over time? ...so that is an option.  

any further recommendations welcomed!

Does the drive still spin down if you power it on without the SCSI cable connected? if it does, then there's a problem with the drive. The old drives all should remain spinning as far as I know.

Even with the cable attached it shouldn't be spinning down. I have a bad drive myself, but it remains powered up and spinning even though the Mac gave up trying to boot from it. It doesn't tell drives to spin down last I checked. At least the Macintosh SE line doesn't. (I don't think any of the compact line does. Controllers telling the drive to spin down is more of a power saving feature and none of the old macs had much in the way of power saving features)

As for the 2.5 drive, it may not be terminated properly being that it sounds like you are using a 80/68 to 50 pin adapter on it. Also try using Lido. It seems my dead drive and gave me a useful error code that narrowed the problem to the drive and not the cable/scsi controller. If the 2.5 drive isn't terminated properly, Lido will give you a SCSI arbitration failed error. I forget the exact message, but I believe Lido will give you a clear error that can indicate a termination issue. If the SCSI bus is bad Lido might also display an error for that.

Although I may still attempt to format mine once my mouse arrives (as I can't navigate the program without a mouse. ). My drive had a head crash due to it's age. (it was inactive for a long time judging from the fact the previous owner said it was still working last time he used it but had it in storage for more then a decade)

Despite that, the drive does not power down even when connected to the Macintosh SE that boots to the flashing floppy disk icon. So your drive should not be powering down. There appears to be a serious hardware fault like a stuck head. Although some models that had a head crash might power down after failing to read the special area before track 0. Mine doesn't power down with that problem though.

Either way, if Lido fails to see/format your drive, a patched version of one of Apples official tools won't help.

Thank-you, this is extremely helpful.

I will try what your recommending. As for terminating the new HD, is there a proper way I should be doing that? I can post a photo this evening. My new HD has a jumper at ID 2 and towards the opposite end of the pins. -a photo may help here.

Thanks, not quite ready to give up on this old Mac.

Definitely give Lido a shot, as Apache Thunder pointed out... it's very useful.

Thanks,

For using Lido, do I install it on a floppy with bootable system software? How does that work? I could copy it onto a disk tools floppy which I can boot from. -would that work?