Thread
Techknight™ - LC PDS NETWORK CARD IN A SE/30?
so i would assume that the ultimate goal to this is to make a PCB that will allow you to install a LC NIC into a se/30, correct 
and basically all you really want from this pcb is to act as not only a riser from the SE/30's PDS slot… but also as a patch board that allows PDS to LC PDS electrical compatibility.
i would assume that making a vertical install would be the best.
or were you thinking of asking more of the RISER/PATCH PDS/PDS PCB, did you want it to T off and still run the IIsi Video card as well ?
the next question is… Cost… how much would Such PCB cost… and would it be cost effective?
because i doubt anyone would want to buy one of those IIsi super mac FPU/Riser Cards only to
solder a couple hundred wires
desolder a euro din,
install a LC PDS male din. - for the NIC.
all for a NIC that we are not even sure will work
and basically all you really want from this pcb is to act as not only a riser from the SE/30's PDS slot… but also as a patch board that allows PDS to LC PDS electrical compatibility.
i would assume that making a vertical install would be the best.
or were you thinking of asking more of the RISER/PATCH PDS/PDS PCB, did you want it to T off and still run the IIsi Video card as well ?
the next question is… Cost… how much would Such PCB cost… and would it be cost effective?
because i doubt anyone would want to buy one of those IIsi super mac FPU/Riser Cards only to
solder a couple hundred wires
desolder a euro din,
install a LC PDS male din. - for the NIC.
all for a NIC that we are not even sure will work
Dunno if that's directed at me or techknight, but I'll answer from my view on it:
] ]'>
Besides, if you don't mind soldering just under a hundred wires, you don't even need the card, that's how I'd test the concept, the PCB layout will map out which wires get soldered or wire wrapped where. [] ]'>
No EuroDin removal involved, unless you want to do the "wrong angle" hack to that $2 card riser card . . .
] ]'>
******* You never got back to me on whether there's room for another card next to the RCPII/IIsi (before you run into the PSU?) a couple of pics of your hack showing the physical relationships would be helpful. If there's room for the LC NIC to lay next to the Video Card in the SE/30, I think I just now figured out how to do the hack with some degree of elegance for either machine! [:O] ]'>
p.s. again, someone has to figure out IF this should work, from that mess of control signals, I haven't got a clue. I'm assuming that any of the /PDSxxxxx signals take precedence over the /CPUxxxxx versions, since they aren't present on the SE/30/IIsi PDS.
p.p.s. I think techknight is busy with the internal grayscale conversion rather than this, which is as it should be! [] ]'>
Heh! Isn't that the reason YOU started this thread about techknight's idea? [so i would assume that the ultimate goal to this is to make a PCB that will allow you to install a LC NIC into a se/30, correct
] ]'>Dunno if it will work that way in the SE/30, you'd likely need two due to the thickness of the IIsi assembly. ********
You and techknight would have to figure that out, I don't have an SE/30, so I'm taking a whack a possible IIsi installation.
You guys need to figure that out. For the IIsi, the Video Card is the riser. I've taken pictures of a mock-up with the NuBus frame standing in for the IIsi so it's possible to photograph it at all and to show the convenient positioning of RJ-45 and LED panel in the IIsi. To do that, I had to use a second SuperMac riser because the frame and Radius Color Pivot II/IIsi are physically incompatible.or were you thinking of asking more of the RISER/PATCH PDS/PDS PCB, did you want it to T off and still run the IIsi Video card as well ?
Dunno, don't care, figuring it out is the fun art, but the total would come in at a far more reasonable cost than the going rate for a PDS NIC. That was your point in the OP.
Huh? unless you want to do the 32bit extension, there are a MAXIMUM of 19 jumper wires for signals required as pictured along with the oddball power and ground lines where applicablebecause i doubt anyone would want to buy one of those IIsi super mac FPU/Riser Cards only to
solder a couple hundred wires
Besides, if you don't mind soldering just under a hundred wires, you don't even need the card, that's how I'd test the concept, the PCB layout will map out which wires get soldered or wire wrapped where. [
] ]'>In the case of the NIC, you only need to dremel off the connector"s plastic shroud and solder the adapter directly to its exposed pins
No EuroDin removal involved, unless you want to do the "wrong angle" hack to that $2 card riser card . . .
. . . no installation necessary if the answer above is no. A straight pass thru slot like I have is a great feature, but unnecessary. For most folks, the Video Card and NIC assembly would likely suffice for the SE/30 or IIsi.
If it looks like the 19 signals I've Isolated don't work out, there's no need to take it any further. [all for a NIC that we are not even sure will work
] ]'>******* You never got back to me on whether there's room for another card next to the RCPII/IIsi (before you run into the PSU?) a couple of pics of your hack showing the physical relationships would be helpful. If there's room for the LC NIC to lay next to the Video Card in the SE/30, I think I just now figured out how to do the hack with some degree of elegance for either machine! [:O] ]'>
p.s. again, someone has to figure out IF this should work, from that mess of control signals, I haven't got a clue. I'm assuming that any of the /PDSxxxxx signals take precedence over the /CPUxxxxx versions, since they aren't present on the SE/30/IIsi PDS.
p.p.s. I think techknight is busy with the internal grayscale conversion rather than this, which is as it should be! [
] ]'>
there aint no room buddy--- 1/8 of a inch at the most. between the card and it touching something (in the front)
Yeah i could see taking a super mac card, and a grinder to the euro din , making it proper size for the LC-NIC to connect.
19 lines well that is almost 40 spots to solder… that sounds feasible/reasonable.
So once someone makes a prototype supermac card… trys it…. at that point we will know wether or not to proceed…
i think this is something i can handle…
as long as there is a easy to follow diagram that shows what wire go to where.. and i would assume we would be murdering the (traces we're patching) on the PCB.
If techknight is working on the Radius IIsi video card SE/30 Grey scale mod… then yes… I would say that does take priority for sure.
Yeah i could see taking a super mac card, and a grinder to the euro din , making it proper size for the LC-NIC to connect.
19 lines well that is almost 40 spots to solder… that sounds feasible/reasonable.
So once someone makes a prototype supermac card… trys it…. at that point we will know wether or not to proceed…
i think this is something i can handle…
as long as there is a easy to follow diagram that shows what wire go to where.. and i would assume we would be murdering the (traces we're patching) on the PCB.
If techknight is working on the Radius IIsi video card SE/30 Grey scale mod… then yes… I would say that does take priority for sure.
Nope, not in front or back, how wide a card could sit beside the RCPII/IIsi in your SE/30 installation? IOW, can you lay the LC NIC card down next to the Pivot card without it hitting the PSU or anything else? How much room is there to spare on the front, back, underneath (looked like zero in your pic) above and to the right side of the LC NIC? Much rides on that information.
Not it at all, you take the four walls surrounding the LC Card EuroDin connector's pins off so that you can solder the exposed LC Card pins directly into thru holes for an LC Slot connector on the adapter PCB. These will remain unpopulated to keep the assembly as thin as possible and get around the need to buy any EuroDin connectors.
No trace patching at all involved, those jumper wires get soldered into thru holes designed into the Adapter PCB on one end and to the solder cones of the appropriate pins of the PDS connectors on either side of the SuperMac card. [
] ]'>Nope, once someone works out the control line translation, then we make a PCB free prototype by soldering a bit less than 100 jumper wire connections and wire wrapping the other ends right onto the NIC's EuroDin connector pins. Annoying, but near zero cost and muuuuuuch faster than laying out the entire PCB. No need to route the 64 address and data lines at all . . . or the control lines for that matter! [
] ]'>Damn straight! [
] ]'>
well with all those no's and complexity, I'm officially withdrawn from this project.
All those "No's above just mean it's a lot easier than you'd thought, buddy! :approve:
Some new ones: next revision involves no SuperMac Card, no jumper wires and no EuroDin wall hacking at all. ;D
All I need from you would be the dimensions requested above a/o a couple of pics of your great RCPII/IIsi-in-SE/30 hack roughly showing the relationships of the Pivot card with the SE/30's PSU etc.
Back in? :lol:
edit: determination that the remaining control lines are compatible remains paramount. That's the go-no go for prototyping.
Some new ones: next revision involves no SuperMac Card, no jumper wires and no EuroDin wall hacking at all. ;D
All I need from you would be the dimensions requested above a/o a couple of pics of your great RCPII/IIsi-in-SE/30 hack roughly showing the relationships of the Pivot card with the SE/30's PSU etc.
Back in? :lol:
edit: determination that the remaining control lines are compatible remains paramount. That's the go-no go for prototyping.
Anyone have the correct Eurocard/din connectors I need?
I need a right angle male to plug into the SE/30. I forget how many pins, 120?
Then I also need the right angle female 120 pin mate of course. (for my video card extender).
Then I need a 96-pin straight female, or maybe right-angle. I haven't decided yet. I am going to put both the 120 pin and 96 pin eurocards on the same PCB.
I need a right angle male to plug into the SE/30. I forget how many pins, 120?
Then I also need the right angle female 120 pin mate of course. (for my video card extender).
Then I need a 96-pin straight female, or maybe right-angle. I haven't decided yet. I am going to put both the 120 pin and 96 pin eurocards on the same PCB.
What you need for the pass thru is a left angle female and you can PM trag. I got several from him, that's what I used to convert the SuperMac PDS Adapter (the wrong angle hack) to a straight up extender board. Ask bbraun where he gets his, he's the only other "wrong angle" hacker I know of, excepting trag, of course.
The connector on the bottom is a true right angle connector. If you use one on the top you wind up needing to hack the keying, no fun.
What size is your adapter and where are you putting the Pivot Card? :?:
The connector on the bottom is a true right angle connector. If you use one on the top you wind up needing to hack the keying, no fun.
What size is your adapter and where are you putting the Pivot Card? :?:
why would i need a left angle? when i can put the connector on the backside of the PCB.
Dunno, but the keying may still not be right, check it out. I know trag's prices are right for the left parts.
I've been playing in AI again:
[attachment=0]Rosetta Stone.000.2p.jpg[/attachment]
I've been playing in AI again:
[attachment=0]Rosetta Stone.000.2p.jpg[/attachment]
Yea that could be true. I dunno. Anyway.... I need to find those connectors regardless. Right angles, streights, 96pin/120pin male and females.
If you spot any EuroDIN 120 in wire wrap, please let me know, the largest I can find are NuBus size so I'll need to cut two of them down, that means three connectors for two hacks.
Digi-Key has a lot more soldertail EuroDIN-120 in different orientations (direction and sex) in stock than I'd expected.
Digi-Key has a lot more soldertail EuroDIN-120 in different orientations (direction and sex) in stock than I'd expected.
So far, I am designing the 120-pin PDS extender, so i can plug my video card in without lopping things off, bending 90-deg, etc..
Now I didnt make any offset measurements, I just simply through 2 eurodins in place and routed the PCB.
Here is what i have so far.
[attachment=0]expander.png[/attachment]
Now I didnt make any offset measurements, I just simply through 2 eurodins in place and routed the PCB.
Here is what i have so far.
[attachment=0]expander.png[/attachment]
Are you thinking of adding a connector for the LC NIC to that card?
Maybe.
But, I may not. I might be using that just as a proper-offset riser, and then ill roll another small PCB to connect to the passthrough on the pivot card, and that will be the crossover-bus adapter card.
ill probably open A24 to A31 as jumper holes, and the IRQ1/2/3 as jumper holes as well. this way, I can swap address lines and set the IRQ for Slot 9 from the LC's E. the pivot has its own jumpers and its default at 9, ill put the LC card on A.
Then i could put a IIe card on B.
But that leaves an open question. how to design the LC board so that the ethernet card sits in there correctly. if i just make a streight-through top mount eurocard adapter, the RJ45 port will face the front, and not the back. lol.
but if i design the adapter that the eurodin goes on the bottom, this means the LC card will mount upside down allowing the RJ45 to face the back.
ugh decisions, decisions....
But, I may not. I might be using that just as a proper-offset riser, and then ill roll another small PCB to connect to the passthrough on the pivot card, and that will be the crossover-bus adapter card.
ill probably open A24 to A31 as jumper holes, and the IRQ1/2/3 as jumper holes as well. this way, I can swap address lines and set the IRQ for Slot 9 from the LC's E. the pivot has its own jumpers and its default at 9, ill put the LC card on A.
Then i could put a IIe card on B.
But that leaves an open question. how to design the LC board so that the ethernet card sits in there correctly. if i just make a streight-through top mount eurocard adapter, the RJ45 port will face the front, and not the back. lol.
but if i design the adapter that the eurodin goes on the bottom, this means the LC card will mount upside down allowing the RJ45 to face the back.
ugh decisions, decisions....
awesome!
as far as i'm concerned that is the least of your worries.. i couldn't care less how the card fits in there… ill run a 9foot ethernet cable right out of the back!
I mean unless you are trying to be a perfectionist!!!
awesome!
I got your good news and your bad news kind of situation here:
Bad news: It's looking to me like we've got to reverse engineer the function of the PowerCache Adapter chip to get the LC NIC to work.
I started out mapping the similarities between the IIsi/SE/30 and the LC Slot NIC and hit a brick wall, so I attacked it from the other side. I've restarted the Rosetta Stone project, couldn't find the spreadsheet, so I'm working it out visually, before I try to locate or rebuild that crazy piece of work.
Good news: It's looking to me like we've got to reverse engineer the function of the PowerCache Adapter chip to get the LC NIC to work. [] ]'>
The IIci Cache Slot is the key to understanding the differences between Apple's several incompatible variations on the 68030 PDS theme. The machine specific PowerCache PDS adaptations for their IIci Cache Slot Accelerators provide clues as to the differences between these PDS implementations.
I've haven't got a PowerCache Adapter for either machine in question, but I do have one for the LCIII. Since it looks like it's pretty much a straight thru (right angled and flip flopped as it may be) PDS shoehorn with no active components on board, the LCIII's PDS looks to be as similar to the IIci Cache Slot as anything I've seen:
There are only seven tiny SMT resistors on board, eight of the same package type, but capacitors and then five large SMT capacitors that I'm guessing condition the power translation from the five power lines (only three of which are +5V pins, BTW) in the LCIII slot to the eleven Vcc connections on the IIci Slot/PowerCache Receptacle.
That's a total of just twenty capacitors and resistors needed to turn an LCIII slot into a PowerCache/IIci Cache Slot!
Once we've figured that control line translation stuff out it'll be lots of fun designing all manner of crazy adapter concoctions for PowerCache accelerated IIsi/SE/30 boxen. [}] ]'>
Bad news: It's looking to me like we've got to reverse engineer the function of the PowerCache Adapter chip to get the LC NIC to work.
I started out mapping the similarities between the IIsi/SE/30 and the LC Slot NIC and hit a brick wall, so I attacked it from the other side. I've restarted the Rosetta Stone project, couldn't find the spreadsheet, so I'm working it out visually, before I try to locate or rebuild that crazy piece of work.
Good news: It's looking to me like we've got to reverse engineer the function of the PowerCache Adapter chip to get the LC NIC to work. [
] ]'>The IIci Cache Slot is the key to understanding the differences between Apple's several incompatible variations on the 68030 PDS theme. The machine specific PowerCache PDS adaptations for their IIci Cache Slot Accelerators provide clues as to the differences between these PDS implementations.
I've haven't got a PowerCache Adapter for either machine in question, but I do have one for the LCIII. Since it looks like it's pretty much a straight thru (right angled and flip flopped as it may be) PDS shoehorn with no active components on board, the LCIII's PDS looks to be as similar to the IIci Cache Slot as anything I've seen:
There are only seven tiny SMT resistors on board, eight of the same package type, but capacitors and then five large SMT capacitors that I'm guessing condition the power translation from the five power lines (only three of which are +5V pins, BTW) in the LCIII slot to the eleven Vcc connections on the IIci Slot/PowerCache Receptacle.
That's a total of just twenty capacitors and resistors needed to turn an LCIII slot into a PowerCache/IIci Cache Slot!
Once we've figured that control line translation stuff out it'll be lots of fun designing all manner of crazy adapter concoctions for PowerCache accelerated IIsi/SE/30 boxen. [}
] ]'>
Here's to hoping that the NIC's control line requirements won't exceed what's readily available without the conversion!.
Why do we have to reverse engineer anything? you lost me.
the connections are the same, only difference is SE/30 has slotspace for 9/A/B, while LC is E. and the LC has slot space addressing in 24bit like the SE, but super slot space/32bit is signified by the single A31 line on the LC. Pretty much the same on the SE/30 except you have all address lines available.
So i dunno what the big deal is?
if anything putting LC PDS cards in an SE/30 should be easier for the fact that the card was designed with more restrictions in mind. Its going the other way around thats difficult. (SE/30 cards in LC).
the connections are the same, only difference is SE/30 has slotspace for 9/A/B, while LC is E. and the LC has slot space addressing in 24bit like the SE, but super slot space/32bit is signified by the single A31 line on the LC. Pretty much the same on the SE/30 except you have all address lines available.
So i dunno what the big deal is?
if anything putting LC PDS cards in an SE/30 should be easier for the fact that the card was designed with more restrictions in mind. Its going the other way around thats difficult. (SE/30 cards in LC).
Not necessarily, direction of the conversion is irrelevant, whereas functional requirements are a make or break situation..
It boils down to which of the control lines you need to get the NIC to function. They're not the same between the SE/30 and the LC, whereas they are identical between the IIci and the LC.
If you're lucky, you won't need any of the control signals that differ. If not, you'll need to tweak/synthesize the required control signals from the batch that differ and the ones that don't. That's why the PowerCache adapters are so different. Some need those conversions done in the PALs you see on the SE/30 PowerCache connector.
The requirements for a NIC as opposed to an accelerator are trivial, hopefully the basic set of control signals that are identical in all the of Apple's 68030 PDS variations will suffice.
LCIII <-> IIci = Trivial
LCIII <-> SE/30 = not necessarily trivial, depending upon which control signals are required.
See post with the two diagrams above.
I did look at your diagrams. What differs? its all there... Your not thinking 4th dimensionally.
AHA! 8-o Thanks for that tidbit, that's what I get for doing work in AI until the wee hours . . . I'm not really supposed to do that.
I went back to look at the data again. Thank goodness I wasn't following it or the discussion linearly. I think I've finally got a handle on what those little black boxes on the PowerCache adapters do to the IIsi, SE/30 and the other PDS Slots which aren't signal for signal compatible with the IIci Cache Slot.
Gotta get probes on one of those suckers ASAP! :approve:
I went back to look at the data again. Thank goodness I wasn't following it or the discussion linearly. I think I've finally got a handle on what those little black boxes on the PowerCache adapters do to the IIsi, SE/30 and the other PDS Slots which aren't signal for signal compatible with the IIci Cache Slot.
Gotta get probes on one of those suckers ASAP! :approve:
Off topic:
The Powerbook Duo is setup for Slot.E as well. hmmmmm. That means I can tie an LC ethernet card directly to the 152 pin docking connector of the PB Duo.
Humm.... I need a dock connector now. Maybe a scrap floppy dock.
The Powerbook Duo is setup for Slot.E as well. hmmmmm. That means I can tie an LC ethernet card directly to the 152 pin docking connector of the PB Duo.
Humm.... I need a dock connector now. Maybe a scrap floppy dock.
That's exactly why I've been studying every permutation of the 68030 PDS since about the time the MLA was founded. My choice was adapting the LC version of my NuBus PAS16 for my DuoBoomBoxDock™ entry for a free computer contest over on 'fritter.
I was wondering when someone was going to take this into the Duo realm! Good thinking there, tk!
I was wondering when someone was going to take this into the Duo realm! Good thinking there, tk!
Well in the case of LC to Duo, its not hard. its basically direct-connect. no fiddling with addresses or anything.
I dragged out the Mac II PowerCache adapter mcd donated to my project to check out before I buy, borrow or steal any of the other PowerCache adapters. I figure having the discrete control signals coming from 68020 and MMU sockets available for analyzing how they play out in the two PALs on board that particular adapter may tell me more that just jumping straight into the 68030 converters with integrated CPU/MMU signals. Dunno, it's worth a shot and an adapter on hand . . .
Long story short, it's likely the missing cache a/o /cache.hit control lines that are synthesized from other signals in the little black PAL boxen on the IIsi/SE/30 PowerCache Adapters. Not jumping to conclusions, but that's the bet bet from where I'm sitting.
Found a couple of pics over on 'fritter just now: NuBus Mafia
[attachment=1]iisi_pds_adapter-10199.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]daystar_what-20222.jpg[/attachment]
....
Long story short, it's likely the missing cache a/o /cache.hit control lines that are synthesized from other signals in the little black PAL boxen on the IIsi/SE/30 PowerCache Adapters. Not jumping to conclusions, but that's the bet bet from where I'm sitting.
Found a couple of pics over on 'fritter just now: NuBus Mafia
[attachment=1]iisi_pds_adapter-10199.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]daystar_what-20222.jpg[/attachment]
....
That chip U1 is the decode logic specifically for allocating the cache correctly on the databus, as the cache isnt using nubus space. its more memory mapped
Whatever it's doing, that chip's the functional equivalent of the PAL on that $200 .jp PowerCache adapter/PDS Slot Riser for the SE/30!