Thread
Compact Flash in se/30
Hi all,
I'm messing about with an SE/30 just now and wondered if anyone has managed to get compact flash cards working with them instead of hard disks.
I'm using an ACARD AEC-7720U which I managed to find on eBay for about $15 See http://tinyurl.com/2zoekk
And another eBay purchase IDE to Compact Flash adaptor ($5).
And a 4GB Compact Flash card.
The ACARD plugs into the SCSI cable in the Mac and you then plug in an IDE drive or in my case the Compact Flash adaptor. In theory it should all work however it's not for me.
If I plug the Compact Flash adaptor into a PC's IDE cable, it comes up ok as if it were a hard disk. If I plug an old IDE hard disk into the ACARD and the Mac, it sees it as a hard disk. Plugging the Compact Flash adaptor in to the ACARD and the Mac however doesn't work.
Apple's HD SC Setup 7.3.5 (Patched) doesn't see it at all.
SCSI Probe says 'No Data'
FWB Hard Disk Toolbox 2.0.5 says it's of type 'Processor' and won't do anything else.
Storeware 3.0 won't read it.
LaCie SilverLining v5.4 says it's a read only cartridge.
Is there any other software that might see it or is it dependent on the type or size of Compact Flash Card?
System 7.5.5 on the SE/30 btw with 80MB of RAM, Shiva Network card and currently a 1GB SCSI disk that makes the screen wobble a little, hence the search for a less power hungry solution.
I'm messing about with an SE/30 just now and wondered if anyone has managed to get compact flash cards working with them instead of hard disks.
I'm using an ACARD AEC-7720U which I managed to find on eBay for about $15 See http://tinyurl.com/2zoekk
And another eBay purchase IDE to Compact Flash adaptor ($5).
And a 4GB Compact Flash card.
The ACARD plugs into the SCSI cable in the Mac and you then plug in an IDE drive or in my case the Compact Flash adaptor. In theory it should all work however it's not for me.
If I plug the Compact Flash adaptor into a PC's IDE cable, it comes up ok as if it were a hard disk. If I plug an old IDE hard disk into the ACARD and the Mac, it sees it as a hard disk. Plugging the Compact Flash adaptor in to the ACARD and the Mac however doesn't work.
Apple's HD SC Setup 7.3.5 (Patched) doesn't see it at all.
SCSI Probe says 'No Data'
FWB Hard Disk Toolbox 2.0.5 says it's of type 'Processor' and won't do anything else.
Storeware 3.0 won't read it.
LaCie SilverLining v5.4 says it's a read only cartridge.
Is there any other software that might see it or is it dependent on the type or size of Compact Flash Card?
System 7.5.5 on the SE/30 btw with 80MB of RAM, Shiva Network card and currently a 1GB SCSI disk that makes the screen wobble a little, hence the search for a less power hungry solution.
A couple of comments/suggestions, but no promises. Silverlining v5.x knows nowt about ATA. That comes with v6, and certainly that is when the light of USB dawns, at least with v6.2.1, which I use from SE/30 to the end of the 68K machines.
JDW, 003 and others had posted about power requirements and additional PSUs in upgraded SE/30s in the Pre-Dive. Those threads now being gone, you might try a PM to JDW for some of his experience.
de
Great project and I hope it works.
Try a different CF card. Even an 8MB card is good enough to install System 6 on an SE/30. From everything that I have read, CF-->IDE adapters are fussy about the card which will work.
Try the combination in a more conventional Mac. The SE/30 and early Mac IIs have quirks.
Try a different CF card. Even an 8MB card is good enough to install System 6 on an SE/30. From everything that I have read, CF-->IDE adapters are fussy about the card which will work.
Try the combination in a more conventional Mac. The SE/30 and early Mac IIs have quirks.
See if you can format the card to an HFS drive on an ATA Mac, then move it to the SCSI adapter. Just a thought.
Does anyone make a 50 pin SCSI to CF adapter? I'd be interested in replacing some of my hard drives, too.
Only Artmix as far as anyone knows. I'm going to try SCSI->PCMCIA->CF as soon as my SCSI->PCMCIA box arrives.
Didn't see any PM for me today, so I suppose I will post a response in the thread...
I uploaded a photo of my hard drive to Flickr this evening. I added a description so you can see how I used the drive in the past and how I use it now.
On a separate but related topic, I acquired a rare Mac 512k with a 20MB Hyperdrive off EBAY recently. I was shocked to open the case only to see that it had pretty much the same drive and PSU setup that I myself devised for adding the DGHS internally! I have started a new thread on that, with photos and descriptions. In a nutshell, the Hyperdrive setup is almost exacly the same as my SE/30 secondary PSU implementation, with the exception that GCC added more noise filters and chokes to the power line, which probably would have been a good idea for me to do as well.
You can get 'flash cards' with an IDE socket on them already - meaning that once you sort out the SCSI to IDE adaptor, you don't need a CF card adaptor as well. Just plug in what looks like one of ye olde SCSI terminators (seriously it's like the size of the IDE connector x2) and away you go. Less parts, less $$, less space..... I'll check out specfically what make/model they are at work tomorrow...we've just bought a box of 50 to put into some XP embedded boxes we're building.
I couldn't get the compact flash adaptor to work at all in the Mac so I tried to sort out what was causing the issue.
First I ditched the CF adaptor. I've no other CF cards than the 4GB one currently so I couldn't test to see if different brands/sizes of cards would work and randomly buying stuff from eBay could get expensive.
Next I plugged in a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adaptor and an old 6GB Toshiba laptop drive from an old Compaq. That worked but I was getting bus errors transferring data between drives. I was powering the extra drives from an old PC power supply so as to eliminate any power issues too to no avail.
Next I plugged in a 13.6GB 3.5" Maxtor IDE drive and that worked absolutely perfectly. Model No is 91366U4. Not so surprising given that the later Maxtor drives are listed as compatible by ACARD.
However, the goal was to swap the 1GB SCSI drive out which was causing a wobbly screen for something less power hungry. The thinking was that the drive was causing the wobble on the screen due to power issues.
Anyway, I noticed that the screen wasn't wobbling when the old SCSI drive was out from under the screen so the wobble must be caused by electromagnetic radiation from the drive in proximity to the screen. The odd thing is that it's an IBM 1GB drive pulled from another Apple with 'Apple approved' on it.
So, I reassembled everything with the 13GB Maxtor drive in and the ACARD SCSI-IDE bridge in place. It sticks out sideways towards the PSU so I wasn't sure it would fit, but it does with about 1mm to spare. The card sticks down lower than the drive so you have to tilt the drive slightly or dremel a slot in the drive tray in which the card can sit.
I switched the Mac back on to find there was no interference or wobble on the screen. [
] ]'>
So, I've left the 13GB drive in there. It's almost silent too so that's a bonus and with a 2MB cache and 7200rpm it's quite a bit quicker than the old drive. Speedometer rates it at over 3x quicker than a Mac Classic.
I'm not sure what I'll do with 13GB of space on an SE/30 and with a 10Mbit ethernet card it's no server, but it's a nice machine now and free from screen wobble.
First I ditched the CF adaptor. I've no other CF cards than the 4GB one currently so I couldn't test to see if different brands/sizes of cards would work and randomly buying stuff from eBay could get expensive.
Next I plugged in a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adaptor and an old 6GB Toshiba laptop drive from an old Compaq. That worked but I was getting bus errors transferring data between drives. I was powering the extra drives from an old PC power supply so as to eliminate any power issues too to no avail.
Next I plugged in a 13.6GB 3.5" Maxtor IDE drive and that worked absolutely perfectly. Model No is 91366U4. Not so surprising given that the later Maxtor drives are listed as compatible by ACARD.
However, the goal was to swap the 1GB SCSI drive out which was causing a wobbly screen for something less power hungry. The thinking was that the drive was causing the wobble on the screen due to power issues.
Anyway, I noticed that the screen wasn't wobbling when the old SCSI drive was out from under the screen so the wobble must be caused by electromagnetic radiation from the drive in proximity to the screen. The odd thing is that it's an IBM 1GB drive pulled from another Apple with 'Apple approved' on it.
So, I reassembled everything with the 13GB Maxtor drive in and the ACARD SCSI-IDE bridge in place. It sticks out sideways towards the PSU so I wasn't sure it would fit, but it does with about 1mm to spare. The card sticks down lower than the drive so you have to tilt the drive slightly or dremel a slot in the drive tray in which the card can sit.
I switched the Mac back on to find there was no interference or wobble on the screen. [
] ]'>So, I've left the 13GB drive in there. It's almost silent too so that's a bonus and with a 2MB cache and 7200rpm it's quite a bit quicker than the old drive. Speedometer rates it at over 3x quicker than a Mac Classic.
I'm not sure what I'll do with 13GB of space on an SE/30 and with a 10Mbit ethernet card it's no server, but it's a nice machine now and free from screen wobble.
Happy squeals from me! [] ]'>
Later I suppose you could try a Maxtor laptop drive, or an IBM Microdrive.
I'll let you know how the SCSI-PCMCIA stunt goes.
] ]'>Later I suppose you could try a Maxtor laptop drive, or an IBM Microdrive.
Approx $/GB ratio? And are they sized in GB or Gb?
That would be at the PPCMLA, non? I'll delete the nitpick when you edit.
I'll let you know how the SCSI-PCMCIA stunt goes.
b'n'B....bits 'n' bytes...stick a big G in front of that and it's still a big number
The ones we are using are only 1GB (our XPe OS is only 300MB so there was no need to go bigger), but they are available up to 4GB and I guess 8GB is on the horizon... 1GB cards are costing us about $35, though they retail at about double that.I forgot to check out the make/model, I'll look tomorrow....
Here's the URL to those IDE flash cards:
http://www.transcendusa.com/Products/ModDetail.asp?ModNo=26&LangNo=0
http://www.transcendusa.com/Products/ModDetail.asp?ModNo=26&LangNo=0
Hmm...site is in Japanese. Has anyone ordered from this company?
Yes, I have ordered from ARTMIX. When you write them, owner Manabu Sakai will respond to you in English (not perfect, but readable). He accepts PayPal payments. But watch out! If you ask too many questions, he'll get his feathers ruffled. He likes people who pay him money without too many questions (don't we all). More specifically, I've had run-ins with the man in the past over my performance-related questions concerning his CF adapter solution. He absolutely refuses to give you a straight answer, just citing a bunch of meaningless techno-jargon. I asked him how the performance "feels" when using his CF card solution versus a normal hard disk (tests he certain has done himself), but he would only cite specs. I personally don't care about the theory, I want to know the experimental! But since no one on this site or other classic Mac sites have purchased this particular product from Manabu before, there is no written report for us (real world usage data). Hence, you would be the first to acquire one of these and offer us some insight.
I haven't seen that one specifically, but I've seen a few like it. It's a whole lot easier when you don't have to worry about putting in a SCSI to IDE adaptor 
Are there issues with the number of rewrites?
Kallikak & Flash!, perhaps you two gentlemen could persuade your fellow countryman, Greg Ewing, to pursue a SCSI Flash hack! And it's not like there's a plethora of SCSI options are there for Flash either, as there are for IDE.
Of course, the best possible flash solution for the SE/30 is a Solid State Disk. But I've yet to find one that is reasonably priced, even after all these years of there being manufactured and sold in 4GB sizes (ideal for the SE/30). The benefits of the SSD is that it has built-in remapping which gives you a longer useful life out of the flash drive. Most SSDs I've seen guarantee 11 years or more. Without remapping, and using a common CF card solution (even like what Manabu Sakai offers), you very well may only get a couple years of useful life out of it. SSD's also have more performance optimizations, which may even be of some benefit on our slow SE/30's SCSI implementation. (Keep in mind that the SE/30 doesn't support hard drive DMA, only PIO -- sorry, I don't know which PIO mode though).
Of course, the best possible flash solution for the SE/30 is a Solid State Disk. But I've yet to find one that is reasonably priced, even after all these years of there being manufactured and sold in 4GB sizes (ideal for the SE/30). The benefits of the SSD is that it has built-in remapping which gives you a longer useful life out of the flash drive. Most SSDs I've seen guarantee 11 years or more. Without remapping, and using a common CF card solution (even like what Manabu Sakai offers), you very well may only get a couple years of useful life out of it. SSD's also have more performance optimizations, which may even be of some benefit on our slow SE/30's SCSI implementation. (Keep in mind that the SE/30 doesn't support hard drive DMA, only PIO -- sorry, I don't know which PIO mode though).
Yes, I forget exactly what the theoretical number of re-writes is....however they are designed to be used as HD's for 'industrial' purposes and therefore have a higher rating than your average standard flash card. In our case with the XPe system once we load the OS onto it, it never has to write to that drive again (we have a standard HD for all the other data files)
As a side note, I always find sentences with "it it", "that that" and "had had" very amusing. Sometimes there is no other way to write the sentence
Going by the URL I'd say that Greg is a kiwi (a person of New Zealand persuasion is called a kiwi) and whilst it is a common myth that NZ is part of Australia there are several million people in this part of the world who beg to differ! In fact it could be said that Australia is part of NZ.... NZ is made up of islands, the main ones being inventively named The North Island, The South Island, Stewart Island, and West Island - the west one being Australia [
] ]'>Now just to throw a spanner in the works, I am actually a kiwi.... I have been living in Australia long enough to lose my kiwi accent, but not long enough to call myself an Australian. Besides, the All Blacks kick the Wallabies ass 95% of the time (sure Aussie won the world cup....but can you say Bledisloe Cup!?!?!) and I don't want to be a member of a country that can't play footy [
)] ]'>Not a simple hack at all, as the Compact Flash I/O format is already basically IDE.
True, SCSI wouldn't be a simple hack relative to IDE. But upon reading through Mr. Ewing's work, I can see he is no simpleton either. Indeed, he appears to me to be energized by a challenge, especially one that produces a useful tool or toy in the end. Such would be the case for a SCSI flash drive -- something that would be wildly popular among classic Mac owners such as ourselves.
But despite all this, keep in mind my post above about remapping (rewrites and lifespan of the flash). Even if Mr. Ewing were to create a hack for us, it is unlikely to involve the level of detail that most SSD's have built-in.
But despite all this, keep in mind my post above about remapping (rewrites and lifespan of the flash). Even if Mr. Ewing were to create a hack for us, it is unlikely to involve the level of detail that most SSD's have built-in.
I recommend the Adtron SDDS SCSI PC card drive (3.5 inch form factor, 5 V supply voltage). (Search for "Adtron" in the forum.) I have one in use for a while now as a boot device for a Performa 475. It performs very well with a Kingston 1 GB (100x), little difference compared to the original harddisk drive. The drive probably could be installed in place of a floppy disk drive, to swap media without need to open the case. I am not very familiar with early compact macs. Probably an unused expansion slot has enough space to allow the drive to be mounted without removing the original drives, with access from the rear side of the mac. The drive itself is pretty shallow, it is only the bezel that blows it up to the size of a 3.5" FDD. Suppliers can be found, still, but prices may vary anywhere (!) up to USD 400 (ouch) plus shipping and tax -
There are a number of cheap desktop PCMCIA adapters on ebay that come with a PCI or ISA SCSI card. These should work.
There are others that come with a card that uses a 40 pin cable, which might be IDE or some proprietary connection. Also, there are external units like this one that use a parallel port connection, easily confused with SCSI. In addition, some of the SCSI ones have limitations on the size of the flash cards they can read. Caveat emptor
There are others that come with a card that uses a 40 pin cable, which might be IDE or some proprietary connection. Also, there are external units like this one that use a parallel port connection, easily confused with SCSI. In addition, some of the SCSI ones have limitations on the size of the flash cards they can read. Caveat emptor
register, thanks for bring this to our attention. I checked out the Adtron product page and I see that it is indeed a SCSI flash drive. So the questions then become:
1) What is the voltage and current requirements? Obviously, we wouldn't want to run that AC adapter cord outside the Mac, and I'm not sure we'd want to tap the 110VAC to keep the adapter inside. Therefore, we would need to know the voltage/current requirements to determine how best to power this. If it works on 5v or 12v, then the HD power connector that's already available in the SE/30 would be perfect.
2) What is the exact cable adapter we would need to match the internal SCSI cable of the SE/30 to the SCSI-2 connector on this flash drive?
3) Can this drive truly boot the SE/30?
4) Are there any incompatibilities? (i.e., no Utility software will work, etc.)
1) What is the voltage and current requirements? Obviously, we wouldn't want to run that AC adapter cord outside the Mac, and I'm not sure we'd want to tap the 110VAC to keep the adapter inside. Therefore, we would need to know the voltage/current requirements to determine how best to power this. If it works on 5v or 12v, then the HD power connector that's already available in the SE/30 would be perfect.
2) What is the exact cable adapter we would need to match the internal SCSI cable of the SE/30 to the SCSI-2 connector on this flash drive?
3) Can this drive truly boot the SE/30?
4) Are there any incompatibilities? (i.e., no Utility software will work, etc.)
This is some information about the Adtron SDDS SCSI PC card drive (3.5" form factor).
As I have no SE/30 to perform a test, I can not tell if it will work for this machine. If there are justifiable doubts wether it could work, I might try to find one and check this.
I have only tested consumer grade CF-cards up to now. Industrial grade CF cards should work anyway. Be aware of known incompatibilities of recent SD cards with not so recent PC-card-adaptors (_High Capacity SD_).
Other details are: The front bezel of the drive shows a pushbutton to eject a PC-card (sorry, no auto eject mechanism). It also has a two colour LED, showing green light when powered and idle, orange when busy, no light when off ;-)
If you strive for better access to the PC-card slot: the adaptor fits well into an external enclosure for 3.5" removable media drives (like the small Syquest or ZIP drives).
In case of need for more detailed information, just ask.
The supply voltage is 5 Volts DC, max. current 1 Ampere. The power connector is a standard 4 pin Molex type, like in any 3.5" harddisk drive. There is a DC/DC converter on board to source PC cards which require a higher supply voltage (this might be a hint towards a possible use of this device inside a PowerBook; but do not expect to use any other cards than storage devices.)
The board has got a standard 50 pin male connector, slotted, for use with an usual IDC connector for internal SCSI drives (I would call "usual" what I have seen inside any LC up to beige G3). Termination ON/OFF may be set with a jumper, as well as the SCSI ID number. There is a jumper to "disable disconnects", also.
I have verified the drive to be completely operational as a boot device for a Performa 475 (HFS/Mac OS 8.1) and a beige G3 (HFS+/Mac OS 9.2.2). It works well with several different types of Flash storage cards inside the PC-card slot (PC-Card, CF within a PC-card-adaptor, SD within a PC-card-adapter).
As I have no SE/30 to perform a test, I can not tell if it will work for this machine. If there are justifiable doubts wether it could work, I might try to find one and check this.
The Apple drive setup seems not to work for this drive, not if ResEdited the usual way, also. FWB Hardisk Toolkit works just fine. I avoid possible problems just by formatting the PC-card in the slot of a PowerBook running Tiger, using the latest version of Disk Utility.
I have only tested consumer grade CF-cards up to now. Industrial grade CF cards should work anyway. Be aware of known incompatibilities of recent SD cards with not so recent PC-card-adaptors (_High Capacity SD_).
Other details are: The front bezel of the drive shows a pushbutton to eject a PC-card (sorry, no auto eject mechanism). It also has a two colour LED, showing green light when powered and idle, orange when busy, no light when off ;-)
If you strive for better access to the PC-card slot: the adaptor fits well into an external enclosure for 3.5" removable media drives (like the small Syquest or ZIP drives).
In case of need for more detailed information, just ask.
Um, the website reports EOL. I did a Google search and turned up no vendors. Assuming it will work on an SE/30, how exactly does one go about obtaining one?
What about this instead? http://www.adtron.com/products/Sdds.html – it could be mounted in the FDD bracket and CF cards inserted through the floppy slot.
Then there's this: http://www.adtron.com/products/S35fa.html
Though I'm still at a loss to find any for sale or price.
What about this instead? http://www.adtron.com/products/Sdds.html – it could be mounted in the FDD bracket and CF cards inserted through the floppy slot.
Then there's this: http://www.adtron.com/products/S35fa.html
Though I'm still at a loss to find any for sale or price.
Check this out. I found a retailer offering SCSI PCMCIA drives for use with samplers. They're a little pricey for me, but might be suited to some here.
From experience, I can tell you that if it works on a sampler, it'll work on a Mac and vice versa. Zip drives excepted.
There's also this, from my fritter blog:
From experience, I can tell you that if it works on a sampler, it'll work on a Mac and vice versa. Zip drives excepted.
There's also this, from my fritter blog:
There is a German supplier that might have devices similar to the Adtron SDDS in stock. Got to http://www.apdate.de and look for
S35P-C03N-101
Adtron PC Card SCSI Drive, 1 Slot
or
S35P-C01N-101
Adtron PC Card SCSI Drive, 2 Slots
But fasten your seat belts securely before you ask for a price. Keep in mind this is stuff intended for military use, originally.
This thing looks very similar to the SDDS I referred to. If you obtained one, it should be fine.
This might be the best solution if there would not be an issue with the price. Drives like this are optimised for reliability and performance as well, to be used in aviation and spacecraft appliocations. You will not have the option to replace defective flash memory in this drive, though. That would be the benefit of obtaining a card drive for standard CF cards, only. A CF card that exceeds the rated number of writing cycles could be replaced for a fraction of the price of a real solid state disk.
A used one would be nice, but a drive like this in professional use will be replaced only after some heavy usage, I think. So I would not pay much for a used one.
The device shown in the picture provides the same functionality as the Adtron SDDS. I can not identify the brand. The board layout looks different to the device I use. The price seems to be fine, compared to other sources, because you get the device ready to use with an enclosure.