Thread

Macintosh SE SuperDrive and SCSI Zip 100 Drive

· Troubleshooting · 72 posts · Sep 24, 2007 — Dec 14, 2007 View original thread ↗

#31 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 - 02:55

You may be beyond normal help. My favorite quote for this situation, from Apple, no less, from the general troubleshooting aid at http://www.appledoc.com/article2.html:

"Getting multiple SCSI devices to work together is basically voodoo."

In Mac Secrets, Pogue advocates following the rules then breaking them if necessary, citing a case where double external end termination "solved" some SCSI misbehavior. Extension conflicts are always a possibility with the zip, but there's yet another timing related possibility: The Quadra 700 I think has a 5 MB SCSI capability, I wonder if the infamous Slow SCSI Extension is worth investigating since the Zip drive, a very slow device, has needed it on other less capable Macs. Do some internet research and maybe an experiment or two...

#32 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 - 03:09

I don't think this is a chaining problem because the Zip Drive has these problems whether the CD-ROM drive is hooked up to it or not, and the CD-ROM drive always works. I'll try the Slow SCSI Extension right now. Here's some info on it:

Name: Slow SCSI Extension

Version: 1.0f1

Released: August 13, 1996

Description: INIT to address a potential SCSI incompatibility between

slow SCSI devices and the PowerBook 5300.

This software consists of a self-extracting archive. To use, download, double-click the downloaded file (this decompresses it).

From the Readme included with this archive:

Slow SCSI Extension

Slow SCSI Extension is an INIT for PowerBook 5300 series computers that addresses a potential conflict with slow SCSI devices such as 1x CD-ROM drives (like the Apple CD150), Zip drives, and PowerBooks in SCSI disk mode. Not all PowerBooks will experience the problem and a PowerBook that does may not experience the problem all the time (even with different units of the same make and model).

Important: You should only install this extension if you are experiencing constant freezes or crashes when transfering files with a particular slow SCSI device. Installing this extension will impact performance with ALL SCSI devices by 10 to 50 percent, so only install it if it is absolutely needed! You can use the Extensions Manager to disable Slow SCSI Extension when it is not needed.

To install Slow SCSI Extension, put it in the Extensions folder and restart.

This software is posted to the "Unsupported" section of Apple Software Updates. It is provided "as is" and is not supported by Apple technical support.

#33 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 - 03:28

It didn't do anything.

Does anybody know what I can do? :?:

#34 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 - 03:46

...(rolls eyes to the ceiling)...

Well, you did suspect the off-brand hard drive, this may be the time to swap in another drive, Apple rom or not, just to see if the current one is not quite making the fast SCSI bus timing requirements re non interference with other devices. :?:

#35 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 - 03:55

:O If I put in an Apple HD, I'd put in a bigger one which would defeat the purpose of getting the zip drive. :-x I have lots of precious data of the Quadra's HD. Having to somehow transfer it all over again would be…a bummer…

#36 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 - 04:18

As if by magic, copies of the Iomega Installation Guide and the Iomega Software Manual have appeared along side the 4.2 driver extension. The Installation Guide has instructions for creating a bootable zip, and the Software Manual has the troubleshooting guide in detail. It would be interesting to know if the zip can boot the system with or without other internal SCSI devices on the bus. [

] ]'>

#37 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 - 04:30

Are the manuals printed or electronic?

#38 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 - 04:48

Electronic, self contained, but the software one is a little non-obvious. You have to click in the rectangle lower leftmost to bring up a table of contents with hot links. The first page displayed has some chapter titles which do not respond to clicks, it's the introduction title at bottom left that makes the hot links appear in a new contents window.

#39 Fri, 28 Sep 2007 - 23:15

I made a zip boot disk with Iomega Tools on 4400, but the Q700 couldn't boot from it. The manuals showed me nothing new… :'(

~~~~

What is SCSI Manager 4.3 and why does it make my Quadra 700 freeze during startup if there's the zip drive connected? Without SCSI Manager 4.3, the Quadra 700 is very unstable with lots of force quitting, but it doesn't freeze no matter what when extensions load when the Zip Drive is connected. I know this extension doesn't enable/disable SCSI because the SCSI External CD-ROM drive works with it disabled. How come the zip drive still doesn't mount with SCSI Manager 4.3 disabled? (I have drivers installed.)

~~~~

I tested my Zip Drive with the LC III. I installed the drivers, and the extensions load at startup fine. When I insert a disk, it doesn't mount. That's all. (Its external SCSI CD-ROM drive that is connected to the Zip Drive still works)

~~~~

The Zip Drive works perfectly with the 4400.

~~~~

Both my LC III and Quadra 700 quit with error -127 when Iomega Tools is launched, the 4400 doesn't.

~~~~

I've tried all the ID and Termination problem possibilities, and this doesn't seem to be what's the matter.

#40 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 00:07

SCSI Manager 4.3, just Google it, lots of info, in particular see http://db.tidbits.com/issue/251 which mentions the requirement for a "SCSI Manager 4.3 compatible hard disk driver".

#41 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 00:15

Are you by any chance using some bizarre CD ROM drive that requires a driver? I have a 12x Pioneer CDROM drive that will not mount disks without a driver. It's possible that you have two or more SCSI drivers that are competing for the same something... And your Zip drive is losing the battle.

What version of Mac OS are you running?

Check to see if there is a newer SCSI Manager that can replace 4.3. If not, try an older version of SCSI Manager.

Put your Zip Drive between the two devices that are known to work on your SCSI chain. i.e. Macintosh ---> Zip Drive ---> CD ROM Drive

Track down a copy of Conflict Catcher -- the most recent version you can find -- and run it. If I recall correctly, it's shareware. If you can't find it, I'll dig it up from one of my old CDs.

Try updating the driver on your hard disk. Use HD SC Setup and select Update Drivers.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

#42 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 00:37

Are you by any chance using some bizarre CD ROM drive that requires a driver? I have a 12x Pioneer CDROM drive that will not mount disks without a driver. It's possible that you have two or more SCSI drivers that are competing for the same something... And your Zip drive is losing the battle.

It's an Apple CD 300. It just uses that Apple CD-ROM extension. The Zip Drive still doesn't work when the CD-ROM drive isn't connected.

What version of Mac OS are you running?

System 7.5.0

Check to see if there is a newer SCSI Manager that can replace 4.3. If not, try an older version of SCSI Manager.

Ok, I'll try that.

Put your Zip Drive between the two devices that are known to work on your SCSI chain. i.e. Macintosh ---> Zip Drive ---> CD ROM Drive

I am.

Track down a copy of Conflict Catcher -- the most recent version you can find -- and run it. If I recall correctly, it's shareware. If you can't find it, I'll dig it up from one of my old CDs.

It looks like it's only a trial demo thing.

Try updating the driver on your hard disk. Use HD SC Setup and select Update Drivers.

I will try that too.

#43 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 00:47

Updating the hard disk driver got it through startup - with SCSI Manager 4.3!

But the disk won't mount? Oh my?… I think the disks might be HFS+ :I

#44 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 03:09

IT DOESN'T MOUNT!!!!

I can probe it, and it even shows me the name of the disk that's in it (which is now HFS so it should work.) Plus it's bringing back that not-being-able-to-do-a-single-task-without-having-to-force-quit I talked about

here.

Please help… :'( :-*

#45 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 03:52

Some things to try...

Will it manually mount from SCSI Probe 4.3?

Norton Utilities, also any other boot startup, if you can get them to see it, then designate HD as startup disk before exit.

Turning off SCSI Manager 4.3 (and all extensions with shift) now that driver is updated and test stability again.

Backing up to zip on another system configured as external drive if you can get it to mount.

Then, seeing if you can now get beyond 7.5 and get it to 7.5.3, which includes fixes to the many problems introduced by SCSI Manager 4.3. It's not just needed updates to 4.3, but the rest of the OS also to get the thing stable.

#46 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 04:16

Will it manually mount from SCSI Probe 4.3?

No.

Norton Utilities, also any other boot startup, if you can get them to see it, then designate HD as startup disk before exit.

I'll try now.

Turning off SCSI Manager 4.3 (and all extensions with shift) now that driver is updated and test stability again.

I will try.

Backing up to zip on another system configured as external drive if you can get it to mount.

I tried.

Then, seeing if you can now get beyond 7.5 and get it to 7.5.3, which includes fixes to the many problems introduced by SCSI Manager 4.3. It's not just needed updates to 4.3, but the rest of the OS also to get the thing stable.

That kills the Quadra. (see the link in my last post)

#47 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 04:42

Duh, I should have added Apple's Disk First Aid to the list, it fixes things that Norton Utilities does not. I have updated drivers using Apple's Setup tool, and even MacOS versions many times without clobbering the existing data files, but what I have not done is written a lot of data files with a hard disk driver now suspected of being downrev relative to Mac OS 7.5 in particular which introduced SCSI Manager 4.3, and then updated the hd driver. I checked the revision level of the Apple HD SC Setup that comes with 7.5.3 and it is the same as the patched 7.3.5 you probably downloaded so the driver revision level should be current enough.

#48 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 04:56

I was able to regain my stability by:

1.Disabling SCSI Manager 4.3 and restarting

2.Updating the HD Driver using the Patched HD SC Setup

3.Restarting with All Extensions Enabled

I'll remember that for when bad stuff happens. I couldn't get the HD to be recognized by things other than the SCSI Probe.

These are what some programs see:

Norton Utilities: Sees and can use disk doctor on but can't mount "reinstall drivers with formatting software that came with drive"

Patched HD SC Setup: Sees but can't do anything with

Drive Setup: Sees as "unsupported"

Why can't this Macintosh just mount it?

#49 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 05:35

I ran Disk First Aid on the HD. Here are the results.

Code:

Checking disk “Macintosh HD”.
Checking disk volume.
Checking extent BTree.
Checking extent file.
Checking catalog BTree.
Problem:  Invalid BTree Header, 0, 0
Checking catalog file.
Checking catalog hierarchy.
Rechecking extent file.
Checking volume info.
Checking for locked volume name.
Rechecking catalog file.
Trying to repair volume “Macintosh HD”.
Repairing the disk.
The volume “Macintosh HD” was repaired successfully.

Then things got unstable again. The usual method of restoring stability isn't working. What should I do?

#50 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 06:35

Well, looking at the history thread to which you directed me, that Quadra has an attitude. Until you have a data backup maybe it would be better if all further rescue attempts be on a stable platform, perhaps your 4400. If the disk on a stable platform really accepts a Disk First Aid repair and perhaps a subsequent Norton Utilities repair, and stays repaired long enough maybe you can back it up. If the directory is still bad stopping a mount, you can run Disk Warrior to reconstruct an all new directory, but for sure this is not to be attempted on the Quadra. I am not sure that writes to the disk at this point really go where they are intended.

I did run a test on that patched HD SC Setup tool on an external spare drive. Initially it would not mount but after power cycling (not just restarting) both drive and system it mounted and all files on all disks look fine and pass the anti-virus scan.

If you can get a backup, the quest for stability back on the Quadra can then proceed by some special driver handshaking modification experiments and a set of really rigorous disk read/write diagnostic tests on the media that map out bad sectors, followed by a clean install and attempts to get to 7.5.3.

#51 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 07:41

In your position I might bust out Hard Disk Speed Tools and see if it could help(it has helped a few times in the past with HDs and my CD-RW).

Were the old versions of Disk Warrior any good/compatible with what you are working with in your situation?

What about TechTool Pro 2 or something? Could you not have it run some tests? I know TTP2 is 68k compatible, but cannot remember what it's disk related options are and I can't check until I get home and have some time.

#52 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 07:43

I have bad news. The Quadra 700 can't boot up with SCSI Manager 4.3 even without the Zip Drive connected. The thing is that the macintosh is rocksolid when actually working with no SCSI Manager 4.3. I'm trying to give it a new driver to fix the SCSI Manager 4.3 problem, but it isn't working. No matter what, the zip drive isn't mounting. Also, the ? is starting to appear at random times. I'm doing a full HD backup to my G4. What's happening?

#53 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 07:48

In your position I might bust out Hard Disk Speed Tools and see if it could help(it has helped a few times in the past with HDs and my CD-RW).Were the old versions of Disk Warrior any good/compatible with what you are working with in your situation?

What about TechTool Pro 2 or something? Could you not have it run some tests? I know TTP2 is 68k compatible, but cannot remember what it's disk related options are and I can't check until I get home and have some time.

I don't have any of those.

#54 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 17:02

I just found this article. It says at the end that the Quadra 700 has a flashing question mark problem. Anybody know about that?

#55 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 17:22

First get a complete backup. Then defragment the disk in case it's that. Then we need to get you a competent formatter that will test and map out sector defects and update the factory defects table. Then Blind Transfers and Allow Disconnect need to be disabled in the driver, something FWB HDT 1.7.6 can do. But first I gotta go get some shopping therapy, back later... [

] ]'>

#56 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 17:54

First get a complete backup. Then defragment the disk in case it's that. Then we need to get you a competent formatter that will test and map out sector defects and update the factory defects table. Then Blind Transfers and Allow Disconnect need to be disabled in the driver, something FWB HDT 1.7.6 can do. But first I gotta go get some shopping therapy, back later... [] ]'>

Fragmentation wouldn't cause a startup problem. When files are fragmented, it just means that the files are stored in non-contiguous blocks on the drive. Defragmenting doesn't do anything but put your files in contiguous blocks. Which just means that your hard drive doesn't have to work as hard to read files. I wouldn't expect fragmentation to be the culprit in MacTCP's case.

My advice is to:

a) Reset the PRAM on the Quadra.

B) Backup your hard drive and reformat it.

c) Restore your files to the Quadra's hard drive.

d) Format all of your Zip disks with the same software and drivers that you formatted your hard drives with.

It sounds to me like your biggest issue is consistency. Address your driver consistency issues on a Macintosh with a good PRAM and you should be good to go. Barring, of course, any anomalies that are not software related. e.g. bad SCSI cables, flakey logic board, etcetera.

EDIT: To backup your files, copy them to another machine over a network. Don't backup your system folder. When you format your drive, do a clean System install of 7.5. If you absolutely have to maintain some files from your system folder, backup only your preferences folder. Everything else should be deleted and re-installed. That includes extensions and control panels. Your Quadra sounds like it needs more than "bandaid" solution, unfortunately.

#57 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 18:01

I'll try right now.

#58 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 19:16

I reset the PRAM, and the Quadra is now stable with/without SCSI Manager 4.3. Zip Disks still don't mount.

What shall I do next? Do you think I should erase the hard drive and put my backup I made last night onto the freshly erased HD?

#59 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 20:10

The Zip Drive not mounting doesn't have to do with the non-Apple HD. My Macintosh LC III with an Apple HD can't mount it either. (The Macintosh LC III doesn't ever have instability/SCSI Manager 4.3 problems. The instability on the Quadra would seem to not be related to the Zip Drive. Right now, the Quadra is completely stable anyway.)

What should I do next? :?:

#60 Sat, 29 Sep 2007 - 22:00

I don't know. I've never owned or used a Zip Drive. I don't know anything about them. I have an EZ135 drive that I used to use. I used Silverlining Lite to mount those disks. Why don't you try that?

Give me a few minutes, and I'll upload Silverlining Lite to my website for you.