Yeah i would say that looks pretty normal Steve,(for composite video) S-video might look better. RGB better yet, those images you saw were from the RBG port for sure!
First boot of a new IIgs - help!
I'm pretty sure the images on the website were actually from an emulator. 
I'm not sure I'm motivated enough to actually go through dragging out the IIgs and all the netboot bits (its all cocooned up in the garage at the moment) to take a picture, but what I'll say about using it with the scaler board paired to a 17" 1280x1024 monitor is it's certainly far better than composite in terms of color clarity (the full-color resolution of NTSC composite is really only about 120-ish pixels horizontal, which is why you have that color fringing) but the combination ends up rendering the IIgs screen with a non-integer relationship between the input pixels and the output display grid so it looks a little, well, scaled. Games and whatnot look fine but that horrible blue pinstripe theme that Apple chose for the desktop background is pretty much the worst case scenario.
Of course, the original RGB monitors used for the IIgs weren't exactly the finest things in the world (fairly large dot pitch, etc) so I'm sure if you messed with the (limited) controls on the scaler board enough and matched it with the right monitor you might manage better than the original. It's just, well, you are sort of dealing with trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, here. It's only 640x200 after all. (Apple should have probably included a 640x400 mono mode like that on the Atari ST.)
I'm not sure I'm motivated enough to actually go through dragging out the IIgs and all the netboot bits (its all cocooned up in the garage at the moment) to take a picture, but what I'll say about using it with the scaler board paired to a 17" 1280x1024 monitor is it's certainly far better than composite in terms of color clarity (the full-color resolution of NTSC composite is really only about 120-ish pixels horizontal, which is why you have that color fringing) but the combination ends up rendering the IIgs screen with a non-integer relationship between the input pixels and the output display grid so it looks a little, well, scaled. Games and whatnot look fine but that horrible blue pinstripe theme that Apple chose for the desktop background is pretty much the worst case scenario.
Of course, the original RGB monitors used for the IIgs weren't exactly the finest things in the world (fairly large dot pitch, etc) so I'm sure if you messed with the (limited) controls on the scaler board enough and matched it with the right monitor you might manage better than the original. It's just, well, you are sort of dealing with trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, here. It's only 640x200 after all. (Apple should have probably included a 640x400 mono mode like that on the Atari ST.)
ah yeah emulator haha.. even better 
Under the hood, GS/OS is actually superior to MacOS of the same time period, it wasn't until System 7 that it surpassed the lowly Apple IIhaha
Makes you keep love for the Mac GUI, even @ 1bit B&W
At least that is how i feel
. The lack of RAM is why System 6.0.1 won't boot. Its fairly tight with only 1.25MB of RAM, but stuff will run. Net booting a IIgs is a good option if you don't have a HD, you can load up a fully equipped system with that sssssslllllooowwwlly over the network. Heck, Apple was forced to ship the machine with 512k of RAM shortly after release because 256k wasn't enough to actually run any 16bit software.Also the GS/OS disk images on Apple's site are self extracting Macintosh archives, not Apple II (those would have a .SDK extension).
That lack of quality helped, it smeared the dithered 16-colors together in a convincing fashion. You can see the real monitor in action on my YouTube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bIpn9Dao1M
Along with some addons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYCb9JdMT4w
Lots of software and hardware info here (hint, FloppyEmu support for direct 2IMG loading would be nice): http://www.whatisthe2gs.apple2.org.za/
On a real monitor, the GS/OS desktop actually looks pretty good! Too bad there's no simple way to get similar quality on a modern LCD. As much as I love vintage computers, I draw the line at bringing 100-pound CRTs into my home.
I poked around some more, and got things into a pretty good state. GS/OS 5.0.4 Disk #2 did have a disk utility, as I expected. I also found an 800K disk image of ProDOS 8, with which I was able to boot the machine, and then create a bootable 5.25 inch ProDOS 8 disk. So now I think I have an example of every kind of disk I need.
So there are three kinds of Apple II disk emulation I hope to do with the Floppy Emu hardware. Some of these may end up requiring an external adapter of some kind.
1. 140K 5.25 floppy emulation (Disk II and similar)
2. 800K 3.5 floppy emulation (Apple 3.5 drive)
3. SmartPort disk emulation of any size up to 32MB
I'm not sure which one I'll start with, but maybe #2.
Direct support for 2MG disk images should almost certainly be possible, but I need to look into the details. Also .PO and .DSK (?) for 140K disks.
I poked around some more, and got things into a pretty good state. GS/OS 5.0.4 Disk #2 did have a disk utility, as I expected. I also found an 800K disk image of ProDOS 8, with which I was able to boot the machine, and then create a bootable 5.25 inch ProDOS 8 disk. So now I think I have an example of every kind of disk I need.
So there are three kinds of Apple II disk emulation I hope to do with the Floppy Emu hardware. Some of these may end up requiring an external adapter of some kind.
1. 140K 5.25 floppy emulation (Disk II and similar)
2. 800K 3.5 floppy emulation (Apple 3.5 drive)
3. SmartPort disk emulation of any size up to 32MB
I'm not sure which one I'll start with, but maybe #2.
Direct support for 2MG disk images should almost certainly be possible, but I need to look into the details. Also .PO and .DSK (?) for 140K disks.
Below are the major Apple II image formats, more detailed info is here: http://apple2.info/wiki/?title=Emulators_Part_3
.DSK: "DOS 3.3 Order" 140k 5.25" floppy images
.PO: "ProDOS Order" 140k 5.25" images
.NIB: Nibble data 140k 5.25" images, needed for certain copy protected software. None of the disk hardware replacements seem to support it.
.2MG: This format was created in 1998 or so to address the need for a standardized disk image format for 800k floppies and hard drives. Prior to that, the two major Apple IIgs emulators used their own in-house image format for 800k disks. For the most part its a ProDOS ordered image with a header, but it can contain DOS 3.3 ordered and nibble formatted images as well. Some detailed info here: http://apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/Docs/DiskImage_2MG_Info.txt
If you are looking for implementation of reading and writing these formats, Ciderpress' source would be good to look at: https://github.com/fadden/ciderpress/
.DSK: "DOS 3.3 Order" 140k 5.25" floppy images
.PO: "ProDOS Order" 140k 5.25" images
.NIB: Nibble data 140k 5.25" images, needed for certain copy protected software. None of the disk hardware replacements seem to support it.
.2MG: This format was created in 1998 or so to address the need for a standardized disk image format for 800k floppies and hard drives. Prior to that, the two major Apple IIgs emulators used their own in-house image format for 800k disks. For the most part its a ProDOS ordered image with a header, but it can contain DOS 3.3 ordered and nibble formatted images as well. Some detailed info here: http://apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/Docs/DiskImage_2MG_Info.txt
If you are looking for implementation of reading and writing these formats, Ciderpress' source would be good to look at: https://github.com/fadden/ciderpress/
I got home from doing some errands this evening, and there was an Apple IIe waiting for me! Unfortunately the shipper sent it with minimal packaging, and a couple of the corners were bent and broken, but it still works. I can power it up without any disks, and have fun in BASIC.
When I connect the 5.25 drive to the IIe, and attempt to boot from the ProDOS 8 5.25" disk that I made earlier with the IIgs, the disk just spins forever but nothing happens. Anything obvious I might be missing here? It makes the expected rattle-rattle sound when it's first powered up, so the computer is obviously trying to do something with the disk, but not succeeding. Maybe the version of ProDOS won't work on the IIe? It was ProDOS v2.0.3 if that matters.
When I connect the 5.25 drive to the IIe, and attempt to boot from the ProDOS 8 5.25" disk that I made earlier with the IIgs, the disk just spins forever but nothing happens. Anything obvious I might be missing here? It makes the expected rattle-rattle sound when it's first powered up, so the computer is obviously trying to do something with the disk, but not succeeding. Maybe the version of ProDOS won't work on the IIe? It was ProDOS v2.0.3 if that matters.
An enhanced Apple IIe should have no problem booting ProDOS 2.0.3. Does the machine say "Apple ][" or "Apple //e" when you power it on? ProDOS 2.x requires a 65c02, which a non-enhanced machine would lack.
Ok, hold it right there... how does your disk drive connect to your Disk II controller? Via a 19-pin D-shell, or is it the 20-pin IDC connector? (In a related quesiton... does your 2.0.3 still boot on any other known-good Apple II computer?)
It's an unenhanced IIe - says "Apple ][" at power-up. It actually has both a Disk II controller (in slot 3, with two 20-pin connectors) and a 5.25 controller (in slot 6, with the 19-pin D-SUB). I removed the Disk II controller card, and also re-seated the 19-pin cable from the drive, which might have been a little bit loose before. Now it boots OK from the disk, except it shows a ProDOS banner and "Requires IIe enhanced or later". Rats. So I'll either need to find an earlier version of ProDOS on an 800K disk image, so I can use the IIgs to make a 5.25 disk of the older ProDOS, or use ADTPro directly on the IIe to create an older ProDOS or DOS 3.3 disk.
Keep cards with ROMs out of slot 3, it interferes with the 80 column firmware. You should be able to boot strap ADTPro via serial on an unenhanced IIe.
Right, ADTPro bootstraps and ships on ProDOS 1.9 for this very reason.
I've run into a snag with ADTPro. Using the audio out from my PC, I was able to successfully bootstrap the IIe and load the ADTPro client. But to actually transfer any disk images with ADTPro, it requires two-way communication using the PC's headphone out and microphone in, and I can't get that to work.
The input level on the PC's mic input seems too low for the ADTPro server to hear it. I know it's connected OK, because I can hear it beeping when I enable "listen" mode on the PC and play it through the PC speakers, but it's a fairly quiet beeping that shows as 0 out of 10 in the level meter in the sound recording control panel. This seems to be a common problem, and the ADT instructions recommend using Mic Boost or similar OS settings to fix it. But I've set the input level to 100% and I still get no joy. The PC identifies the input as "line in" as opposed to "microphone", so maybe that's part of the problem.
I have a bunch of different computers in the house, but amazingly only one of them has a sound input jack. Unless I can think of some other way to boost the input signal, it looks like ADTPro audio transfers won't be possible for the IIe. The IIe doesn't have a serial card either, so it might be totally out of luck.
That brings me back to using the IIgs with ADTPro, so I can make disks for both the IIgs and the IIe. The IIgs doesn't have audio in, so the only option there is a serial cable. I have the parts needed to build a custom DB-9 to Mini-DIN-8 serial cable, but I've been putting it off, because it would require reusing my USB-to-DB9 adapter and dismantling a custom wiring job I did for the Lisa serial port. And I actually still need the Lisa serial connection, until I'm completely done testing Floppy Emu with Lisa firmware.
So... there are solutions to all these problems, but none of them seem as easy as I'd first hoped, so I'm going to stop and think it through again. I really would like to get ADTPro working on the IIe, but I don't see any way to do that without building some kind of amplifier for the microphone signal, or finding a way on the PC to boost the input levels further than I've managed to already.
The input level on the PC's mic input seems too low for the ADTPro server to hear it. I know it's connected OK, because I can hear it beeping when I enable "listen" mode on the PC and play it through the PC speakers, but it's a fairly quiet beeping that shows as 0 out of 10 in the level meter in the sound recording control panel. This seems to be a common problem, and the ADT instructions recommend using Mic Boost or similar OS settings to fix it. But I've set the input level to 100% and I still get no joy. The PC identifies the input as "line in" as opposed to "microphone", so maybe that's part of the problem.
I have a bunch of different computers in the house, but amazingly only one of them has a sound input jack. Unless I can think of some other way to boost the input signal, it looks like ADTPro audio transfers won't be possible for the IIe. The IIe doesn't have a serial card either, so it might be totally out of luck.
That brings me back to using the IIgs with ADTPro, so I can make disks for both the IIgs and the IIe. The IIgs doesn't have audio in, so the only option there is a serial cable. I have the parts needed to build a custom DB-9 to Mini-DIN-8 serial cable, but I've been putting it off, because it would require reusing my USB-to-DB9 adapter and dismantling a custom wiring job I did for the Lisa serial port. And I actually still need the Lisa serial connection, until I'm completely done testing Floppy Emu with Lisa firmware.
So... there are solutions to all these problems, but none of them seem as easy as I'd first hoped, so I'm going to stop and think it through again. I really would like to get ADTPro working on the IIe, but I don't see any way to do that without building some kind of amplifier for the microphone signal, or finding a way on the PC to boost the input levels further than I've managed to already.
You do have a case of "you can't get there from here," don't you? You will be unhappy with audio even if/when you get it working. Yes, it's a line-in vs. mic amplification issue. But it's slow; painfully slow. You want to set your sights on serial. Wire up a cable, grab a cheap USB-RS232 dongle (you can get away with a crappy Prolific adapter on a PC; less so on a Mac, due to device driver differences) and go that route. This is better than spending $20+ on a super serial card for your IIe. But you don't want to go audio.
You will be unhappy with audio even if/when you get it working. Yes, it's a line-in vs. mic amplification issue. But it's slow; painfully slow. You want to set your sights on serial. Wire up a cable, grab a cheap USB-RS232 dongle (you can get away with a crappy Prolific adapter on a PC; less so on a Mac, due to device driver differences) and go that route. This is better than spending $20+ on a super serial card for your IIe. But you don't want to go audio.Ah, I guess you're right about audio. But won't I need the SSC anyway, unless I continue using the IIgs as a go-between disk making station for the IIe?
Medium to longer term, I'd like to pack away the IIgs, but the IIe will probably stay on my desk. For whatever reason, I find that the IIe really hits my retrocomputing nerve, in the same way as the old compact Macs. The IIgs and the Mac II and later Macs just aren't as interesting to me, despite their usefulness. And the poor Lisa doesn't do anything for me - interesting in a historical perspective, but not very enjoyable to use, and it takes up my entire desk. If I can eventually whittle things down to a single IIe and Mac 512K on my desk, I think that'll be just about perfect.
The IIgs certainly brings its share of conveniences, even as an 8-bit machine. Plenty of folks used them as well equipped "fast" Apple IIes back in the day.
Yes, you're right. You would still need the GS as the go-between since it has the built-in serial communications. But at least you can get away with (for now) just hand-wiring up your MiniDIN-8 cable and a cheapie USB-RS232 adapter... I think that's your minimal cash path. But to really do it right, you want an SSC for the IIe. I use an accelerated GS for ADTPro testing and imaging tasks, and it's an able workhorse. But I agree, there's no nostalgic value in it for me. I need a II+ for that.
It's an evil thing to suggest, but does your IIgs' motherboard have the header soldered for a IIe keyboard? Since your IIe is already damaged you could use that as the excuse to cut holes for the IIgs motherboard's ports in the baseplate and turn it into a stealth-upgrade hybrid. It'd basically give you the equivalent of an enhanced IIe upgraded with an SSC, a 2.8mhz accelerator, a 3.5-inch capable controller, and some extra RAM.
(GS motherboards with the IIe connector are somewhat rare, unfortunately. One of the two "Woz Edition" machines I have has the connector, but unfortunately it's the one with the bad keyboard controller; it's damaged in such a way that it breaks both the header and the ADB port.)
Loaning/borrowing stuff is always a hassle but I'll toss this out there: if you're really hating your current data transfer solutions I could probably loan you my AppleTalk bridge for the time you're working on this disk emulation problem; I believe A2SERVER is available in a pre-built VM if you don't have a dedicated box you can slap Linux on. I could also loan you my "bad" RAM card; chances are it doesn't have more than one bad IC on it so it could probably be easily fixed with a chip pulled from the one you have; that would let you run GS OS over the network. Just give me a discount on a Floppy EMU once you have the Apple II support working and we'd be even.
(GS motherboards with the IIe connector are somewhat rare, unfortunately. One of the two "Woz Edition" machines I have has the connector, but unfortunately it's the one with the bad keyboard controller; it's damaged in such a way that it breaks both the header and the ADB port.)
Loaning/borrowing stuff is always a hassle but I'll toss this out there: if you're really hating your current data transfer solutions I could probably loan you my AppleTalk bridge for the time you're working on this disk emulation problem; I believe A2SERVER is available in a pre-built VM if you don't have a dedicated box you can slap Linux on. I could also loan you my "bad" RAM card; chances are it doesn't have more than one bad IC on it so it could probably be easily fixed with a chip pulled from the one you have; that would let you run GS OS over the network. Just give me a discount on a Floppy EMU once you have the Apple II support working and we'd be even.
Thanks for the offer! I think I won't need it, though: after much fussing and fiddling, I finally have a working IIgs serial cable for ADTPro *and* a working Lisa serial cable for capturing BLU logs. I made two different cable halves that can be alternately plugged into my USB-to-DB9 serial port on the PC. Of course, shortly before finishing I discovered I could have bought ready-made cables for both purposes at http://retrofloppy.com/products.html
I'd rather not Frankenstein the Apple II's, but it's an interesting thought. I didn't know you could connect an IIe keyboard to a GS logic board, but I guess it must be possible since there was a GS upgrade available at one time.
So.... where were we? I think I need to go play some Choplifter.
I'd rather not Frankenstein the Apple II's, but it's an interesting thought. I didn't know you could connect an IIe keyboard to a GS logic board, but I guess it must be possible since there was a GS upgrade available at one time.
So.... where were we? I think I need to go play some Choplifter.
I hate suggesting to go out and buy something for projects, but if you can come across one of these
might solve your ADTPro issue with the PC. USB Sound card, ~$3 on ebay free shipping. They're all over the place around that price, different variations.
might solve your ADTPro issue with the PC. USB Sound card, ~$3 on ebay free shipping. They're all over the place around that price, different variations.
Hmm, that USB sound card sure is cheap! I have no idea how they can make any money selling stuff like that for $3.
I just noticed that Apple ][ Disk Server does something very similar to ADTPro, transferring disk images via the audio/cassette port, but it doesn't require any microphone input. It's purely a one-way communication channel, from the PC's headphone output to the Apple II's cassette input. http://asciiexpress.net/diskserver
Why doesn't ADTPro work this way? I can understand it's probably less reliable then two-way communication, but it would be super helpful as a fallback for all the people like me who can't get the mic input to work well enough for ADTPro.
I just noticed that Apple ][ Disk Server does something very similar to ADTPro, transferring disk images via the audio/cassette port, but it doesn't require any microphone input. It's purely a one-way communication channel, from the PC's headphone output to the Apple II's cassette input. http://asciiexpress.net/diskserver
Why doesn't ADTPro work this way? I can understand it's probably less reliable then two-way communication, but it would be super helpful as a fallback for all the people like me who can't get the mic input to work well enough for ADTPro.
Because ADTPro is intended to work both ways... both creating and extracting disks. Not just playing games.
I've been carrying around one of those in my computer bag for years (found it free in a junk pile and it does work)... have you actually tried using one with ADTPro and had better luck than the built-in sound hardware? I ask because while I haven't actually had the need for ADTPro yet (I wish I did; I'd totally trade my IIgs for a ][plus...) I was some time ago attempting to transfer software to a TRS-80 Color Computer via the cassette ports and had what appeared to be a similar problem with inadequate input/output levels. (This was on a... 2011?, MacBook Pro.)
I'm excited for this. My FloppyEmu will go great with my //c
heck the floppy emu is so advanced he could make it emulate a whole Iic i bet.
just add keyboard...
just add keyboard...
You can use Apple ][ Server or ADT over the serial port. I'll try and dig up a link. It's a way of having an Apple II Pi without the out-of-production slot adapter board, which only provides a serial link and power to the Pi