Thread
Mac Plus and using a zip drive as a hard drive
Oh man, I have a bunch of Zips here and don't know which are SCSI and which aren't. How do you tell them apart?
The SCSI Zip drives have a switch allowing you to specify one of two different SCSI IDs. That's the easiest way to tell, IMO.
I am looking at a SCSI zip drive now. It has on the back two selector switches. The first turns termination on or off and the second allows you to select between a SCSI ID of 5 or 6 for the drive.
--David
BTW: I just got my Mac Plus tonight. I am going to have some fun. }
--David
BTW: I just got my Mac Plus tonight. I am going to have some fun. }
Try cruising around on garbage pickup day. I found 3 of them that way. Also check on Freecycle and Craigslist.
Yes, it a SCSI Zip drive. Report back whether my method works with your Plus.
Here's an interesting article that seems to suggest an external SCSI drive can be powered by the floppy port, thus eliminating a cable:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=5935
I wonder if the HD 20 can be modified to use this method?
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=5935
I wonder if the HD 20 can be modified to use this method?
This is very cool stuff. Thank you for developing and preserving this knowledge.
Using a magneto-optical drive should be pretty much the same, I imagine.
I am partial to the Fujitsu DynaMO 640 drives. I sometimes find them for under $20 at Goodwill. The 640 MB disks cost about the same as a ZIP disk and are about the same size. However, there's no concern about ever getting the click of death or having the media die on you.
Back when Zips were current technology, I always thought that 640 MB MO should have been in the position ZIP was. MO was much more reliable, the media cost about the same per disk with the same form factor and each disk stores 6 times as much as a Zip. However, the Zip drives cost about half what an MO drive did, and low cost of entry is all important in consumer marketing, even if the cost of ownership is much higher.
But these days, with a little hunting one can often turn up a superior SCSI MO drive for no more than a Zip drive would cost.
Using a magneto-optical drive should be pretty much the same, I imagine.
I am partial to the Fujitsu DynaMO 640 drives. I sometimes find them for under $20 at Goodwill. The 640 MB disks cost about the same as a ZIP disk and are about the same size. However, there's no concern about ever getting the click of death or having the media die on you.
Back when Zips were current technology, I always thought that 640 MB MO should have been in the position ZIP was. MO was much more reliable, the media cost about the same per disk with the same form factor and each disk stores 6 times as much as a Zip. However, the Zip drives cost about half what an MO drive did, and low cost of entry is all important in consumer marketing, even if the cost of ownership is much higher.
But these days, with a little hunting one can often turn up a superior SCSI MO drive for no more than a Zip drive would cost.
Geography makes a difference. MO drives (and consequently, media) are less common in Europe than Zip drives. The early 120MB MO drives were popular over here in scientific environments, especially because they made it easy to exchange data between so many operating systems, but the bigger drives never really took off owing to developments in network technology (sneakernet just died).
The "click of death" Zip problem made a much smaller impact in the UK compared to the US. Zip 250 drives were accepted by consumers without concerns about past history.
The "click of death" Zip problem made a much smaller impact in the UK compared to the US. Zip 250 drives were accepted by consumers without concerns about past history.
Little late to chime in but ... I am pretty sure that the B&W g3 was the first to ship with an IDE Zip. My G3 MT came with a SCSI Zip. This thread is making me want to go reassemble the Mac II I was going to gut and put that Zip drive in it. I guess i could dremel my SE though... That would be so cool. After that modification....
4 MB RAM
Floppy
ZIP
Ethernet
200Mb HD
4 MB RAM
Floppy
ZIP
Ethernet
200Mb HD
Just got my Plus booted off a Zip!
http://web.onetel.com/~colingjones/zip/mpzipd.html
Now looking for a WetII to get the Plus on wi-fi ?
http://web.onetel.com/~colingjones/zip/mpzipd.html
Now looking for a WetII to get the Plus on wi-fi ?
Awesome stuff. Nice effort.
What is this WetII (WetII?) you speak of?
I use a netgear wireless printserver (WGPS606) as a wireless bridge for my old macs. It also makes a great wireless print server. Go figure.
Does MacHTTP require system 7?
What is this WetII (WetII?) you speak of?
I use a netgear wireless printserver (WGPS606) as a wireless bridge for my old macs. It also makes a great wireless print server. Go figure.
Does MacHTTP require system 7?
Ooops!, I meant a Linksys WET11 wireless/ethernet bridge.
I had my eye on the Netgear wireless printserver (WGPS606) once too as it has fantastic spec but was expensive at the time. I should move one up my wish list!
I 'think' MacHTTP requires system 7.x and MacTCP, but Fetch needs MacTCP so you end up with System 7.x
Still having fun.
I had my eye on the Netgear wireless printserver (WGPS606) once too as it has fantastic spec but was expensive at the time. I should move one up my wish list!
I 'think' MacHTTP requires system 7.x and MacTCP, but Fetch needs MacTCP so you end up with System 7.x
Still having fun.
Hi all,
My plussed 512 has been collecting dust on a shelve for a while... now I've plugged it again but I'm still stuck with the same problem.
It boot Ok from floppy (system 6.0. 8) , but I can't make it boot from an external (SCSI) drive. I tried with Zips again and with a 3gb hard drive that I formatted using different applications (Lido, Blue Disc Manager, Apple Special HD 7.3.5). The Zips and the drive mount Ok after formatting but not after rebooting the Mac :disapprove: I have to use a mounting app. to make them appear again. So the Mac can't boot from them although I installed the system on them . I tried various formatting formulas and the result is still the same !
Anyone can help ? I think I'm just missing something and it drives me crazy ! I have great projects for this little Plus but right now I'm stuck
My plussed 512 has been collecting dust on a shelve for a while... now I've plugged it again but I'm still stuck with the same problem.
It boot Ok from floppy (system 6.0. 8) , but I can't make it boot from an external (SCSI) drive. I tried with Zips again and with a 3gb hard drive that I formatted using different applications (Lido, Blue Disc Manager, Apple Special HD 7.3.5). The Zips and the drive mount Ok after formatting but not after rebooting the Mac :disapprove: I have to use a mounting app. to make them appear again. So the Mac can't boot from them although I installed the system on them . I tried various formatting formulas and the result is still the same !
Anyone can help ? I think I'm just missing something and it drives me crazy ! I have great projects for this little Plus but right now I'm stuck
Few drives >1GB will boot the Plus, in my experience, thanks to the not-quite-compliant SCSI implementation of the Plus (it was the first, after all).
As for the Zip problem, though, you should be able to get that to work with some more fiddling. Here are some things to try:
1) Experiment with different power-on sequences. Sometimes it matters whether the boot volume is powered up before or after the computer. Also experiment with "disk inserted prior to power-up" and "disk inserted after power-up" (just in case that makes a difference with your setup).
2) A terminator is necessary, but the Plus does not supply terminator power. A device external to the Plus has to supply that power. Depending again on power sequencing, it could be that the bus is not properly terminated during the time the Plus queries the bus.
3) Try installing a fresh v4.2 driver. If that disk has been used in a system with a more recent version, the driver might have been modified without your noticing.
As for the Zip problem, though, you should be able to get that to work with some more fiddling. Here are some things to try:
1) Experiment with different power-on sequences. Sometimes it matters whether the boot volume is powered up before or after the computer. Also experiment with "disk inserted prior to power-up" and "disk inserted after power-up" (just in case that makes a difference with your setup).
2) A terminator is necessary, but the Plus does not supply terminator power. A device external to the Plus has to supply that power. Depending again on power sequencing, it could be that the bus is not properly terminated during the time the Plus queries the bus.
3) Try installing a fresh v4.2 driver. If that disk has been used in a system with a more recent version, the driver might have been modified without your noticing.
That is a good point. The ZIP disk is the most reliable SCSI drive I have ever used with a Plus. Plug-N-play if formatted correctly. I personally usethe 4.2 driver method and have never had a problem. Charlieman has suggested using Lido or other low-level formatting software will be just as effective. He will have to weigh in there. Numero6 did not mention which method he used on the ZIP.
However, If you are using 6.0.8, install the Iomega 4.2 driver in the Sytem Folder and simply erase your ZIP in the Finder. Copy your system over. Confirm it is there and double click on it, just to make sure it is recognized as a valid System file. The ZIP must be on, terminated, and the disk inserted before or immediately after you flip the main power switch. Your Mac Plus should then boot from it.
If it does not, then there may be a problem on the SCSI bus. Also, what version ROMs are you using? If a first revision ROM, there could be some issues there as well.
I used the same formatting/system install method that Mac128 has described, and that has worked well for me. I have not been diligent about documenting which ROM versions are in which Plus, but they all seem happy with Zips.
Hi eveyone...
and thank you Mac128 and tomlee59 ! My Plus now boots from the Zip flawlessly... as I thought I was close but after trying so many formatting settings I was "dizzy" and had forgotten the basics...
Now I can focus on the next 2 challenges : to fit the (internal) Zip drive into the HD20 case (and manage a space so I can push the cartridge into the drive) and to connect the Plus to my 12" Powerbook (G4) and then to the Internet... through a Farallon Etherwave localtalk-to-ethernet bridge.
I guess this will be more complex
Thanks again for the help :-*
and thank you Mac128 and tomlee59 ! My Plus now boots from the Zip flawlessly... as I thought I was close but after trying so many formatting settings I was "dizzy" and had forgotten the basics...
Now I can focus on the next 2 challenges : to fit the (internal) Zip drive into the HD20 case (and manage a space so I can push the cartridge into the drive) and to connect the Plus to my 12" Powerbook (G4) and then to the Internet... through a Farallon Etherwave localtalk-to-ethernet bridge.
I guess this will be more complex
Thanks again for the help :-*
While this makes me cringe, the reality is that once an HD20 drive is dead, there is no known way to replace it. So it's not like trying to preserve it will ever result in anything more than a nice looking empty case. In which case, modding an HD20 case to make it useful seems like a reasonable option.
I had thought about using an HD20 case for a slot-loading CD-ROM, by using the side air vents with a minimum of alteration to the case. This could of course be used more efficiently for the ZIP disk, to eliminate major alterations, as long as the dies of the drive is exposed to access the disk. I had also thought of doing this with an old 400K or 800K external drive, but those can still be restored with functional drives. And the HD20 case will hold both the SCSI Zip, much of the bulky cable and the external power supply. One could even put a power strip in there in order to power the entire Mac system with a single cable. All the Ethernet hardware can be put in there as well. So, it sounds like a good little project.
I'm already using the HD's power supply for the Zip drive (it's an internal one, taken from an old G3). The drive fits perfectly in the case and there is some space left, but not enough for the Etherwave I think.
I will shortly open a new post about connecting the Plus to internet...
I will shortly open a new post about connecting the Plus to internet...
Aiiiiiii!!!
Thant's not an HD 20, that's an HD 20SC which has a significantly sustainable, preservable life, as it is the original SCSI drive case.
Now I'm back to cringing. Whatever you do, DO NOT cut holes into that case. It would just be wrong, especially if it is branded 20 SC, there are not too many of those left in circulation. I would suggest making a spacer to hold the top of the case just high enough to insert the ZIP disk. Either that or cut your slot into the side vents already cut into the case to alter it as little as possible in the least visible way.
Don't worry I won't harm it ! I like old things too much I'm currently using a Ericsson T39 phone and a Nikon F2 camera daily...
I plan to use the space used originally for the HD activity LED (which is useless now) to be able to push the the cartidge into the drive.
Or is there any software to stop the Mac from ejecting the cartidge ?
I'm currently using a Ericsson T39 phone and a Nikon F2 camera daily...I plan to use the space used originally for the HD activity LED (which is useless now) to be able to push the the cartidge into the drive.
Or is there any software to stop the Mac from ejecting the cartidge ?