Thread
Backlit Portable with broken display cable
Hi there!
The title says it all - I've recently acquired a Macintosh Portable "demo unit" (much alike the one who was being sold on ebay a couple of weeks ago) that was selling for a pretty low price and I'd be interested in getting it back to work.
The unit has multiple problems, including a dead hard drive, but probably the biggest one is that the video cable is broken - totally cut in two pieces.
I know that earlier, M5120 portables had a ribbon cable that was easier to repair, but the backlit model unfortunately has a flex cable, so I guess I should pretty much rebuild the whole thing from scratch.
I looked around for information about how to do it without any luck - the only reference I've found is this old post from Uniserver, but the pictures are long gone.
I know it's going to be painful and take a lot of time, but I'd really really like to have it alive
The title says it all - I've recently acquired a Macintosh Portable "demo unit" (much alike the one who was being sold on ebay a couple of weeks ago) that was selling for a pretty low price and I'd be interested in getting it back to work.
The unit has multiple problems, including a dead hard drive, but probably the biggest one is that the video cable is broken - totally cut in two pieces.
I know that earlier, M5120 portables had a ribbon cable that was easier to repair, but the backlit model unfortunately has a flex cable, so I guess I should pretty much rebuild the whole thing from scratch.
I looked around for information about how to do it without any luck - the only reference I've found is this old post from Uniserver, but the pictures are long gone.
I know it's going to be painful and take a lot of time, but I'd really really like to have it alive
UPDATE 28-11-17UPDATE 28-11-17UPDATE 28-11-17UPDATE 28-11-17UPDATE 28-11-17
THIS IS THE OLDEST POST HERE ASKING FOR DEVELOPING TOOLS FOR APPS AND PLUGINS.
It started been focusing on Audio but later evolved to a General State.
ORIGINAL POST
Do we have here the tools to DEVELOP plug-ins?
To program in MAX there should be some packages...Documentation, etc
To program vst plug there should be some steinberg SDK
I have no clue about Protools RTAS or TDM plugs SDK, probably they sold the SDK in a secrecy contract (?)
It may involved programming in C+, Java or XCode or anything.
In the OS9/X transition lots of apps said that were carbonized. I think it meaned that it could work in OS9 and X, or maybe it meaned that it could work with OS X...I am not sure what that means.
I know Classilla http://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/ is developed using Codewarrior http://macintoshgarden.org/search/node/codewarrior
http://macintoshgarden.org/author/metrowerks==> This could be backup on our servers, at least the importants ones
This thing seem interesting to take windows program to OS9 http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/microsoft-visual-c-40-cross-development-edition-macintosh
Interesting...http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-developer-cd-collection
Let's post here tools needed to make any kind of AUDIO software in OS9. I readed here somewhere that the only commom way to program things was with MAX MSP.
MAX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_%28software%29
The goal is to have the documentation and tools to develop our owns plug-ins/host/guess. RTAS, VST, MAS, etc.
At least Steinberg OS9 sdk should be easy...
http://www.steinberg.net/en/company/developers.html
THIS IS THE OLDEST POST HERE ASKING FOR DEVELOPING TOOLS FOR APPS AND PLUGINS.
It started been focusing on Audio but later evolved to a General State.
ORIGINAL POST
Do we have here the tools to DEVELOP plug-ins?
To program in MAX there should be some packages...Documentation, etc
To program vst plug there should be some steinberg SDK
I have no clue about Protools RTAS or TDM plugs SDK, probably they sold the SDK in a secrecy contract (?)
It may involved programming in C+, Java or XCode or anything.
In the OS9/X transition lots of apps said that were carbonized. I think it meaned that it could work in OS9 and X, or maybe it meaned that it could work with OS X...I am not sure what that means.
I know Classilla http://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/ is developed using Codewarrior http://macintoshgarden.org/search/node/codewarrior
http://macintoshgarden.org/author/metrowerks==> This could be backup on our servers, at least the importants ones
This thing seem interesting to take windows program to OS9 http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/microsoft-visual-c-40-cross-development-edition-macintosh
Interesting...http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-developer-cd-collection
Let's post here tools needed to make any kind of AUDIO software in OS9. I readed here somewhere that the only commom way to program things was with MAX MSP.
MAX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_%28software%29
The goal is to have the documentation and tools to develop our owns plug-ins/host/guess. RTAS, VST, MAS, etc.
At least Steinberg OS9 sdk should be easy...
http://www.steinberg.net/en/company/developers.html
if you know your max/msp, making a vst/rtas-plug is pretty simple. the pluggo package comes with this tutorial. as with the original pluggo-plugins the very same object is valid both in protools and cubase etc... 
Just for reference, this is the cable I'm talking of.
I've thought about finding another flex cable with the same number of connections, but this cable here splits in two parts...
Ideally, if someone had a spare, that'd be awesome; but I have a feeling finding a compatible part is going to be tough.
Does anybody know if the CN1 header is connected to the video cable somehow?
I've thought about finding another flex cable with the same number of connections, but this cable here splits in two parts...
Ideally, if someone had a spare, that'd be awesome; but I have a feeling finding a compatible part is going to be tough.
Does anybody know if the CN1 header is connected to the video cable somehow?
i am working on a new host as you can see in the respective forum thread
give me a few days with the thing i promised mactron (i have some other hobbies, too) then we will see what we need next.
-110
@110 Can you tell us the process you made to achieve that?
If you have ah ohmmeter (one function of a multimeter) test continuity between the pins on CN1 and the video cable header. If they're common, then it might be easier to adapt something.
Digi-Key sells a wide variety of flat flex cables. As you wrote, the difficulty is that this cable splits into two cables. Also the turns in the cable are a small problem, although I think you can deal with those by creative folding -- but not too much folding. Folding can easily break the conductors in the cable.
If CN1 connects, then it might be possible to get two flat flex cables from Digi-Key (or similar) which match the two smaller cables after the split. They can be bought with flat ends suitable for connectors as shown in your picture, or with tinned pinned ends that might be matable with CN1 and cables with one end flat and the other end pinned are also available.
Most PCB fab places are starting to offer FFC services, so if someone could take the time to map it out into a new Gerber file it could be reproduced again.
But I dunno how viable of an option that is. Worse comes to worse, figure out which connections are broken and then run wires.
But I dunno how viable of an option that is. Worse comes to worse, figure out which connections are broken and then run wires.
http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php?topic=1191.0
110 making a Custom VST host app at the Mactron request called hozzt03 in MAX.
@ 110 or Dr Bu. Has a OS9 MAX programming environment strong enought to move hardware modeled emulations?
Is there out info about modeling hardware based on electronics schematics? Or the math models used to emulate things?
For example. I would like to have an app like the piano keyboard you get from logic to use the Apple keyboard sending midi. Is this reachable within MAX? Or that should be a Codewarrior project involving OMS?
110 making a Custom VST host app at the Mactron request called hozzt03 in MAX.
@ 110 or Dr Bu. Has a OS9 MAX programming environment strong enought to move hardware modeled emulations?
Is there out info about modeling hardware based on electronics schematics? Or the math models used to emulate things?
For example. I would like to have an app like the piano keyboard you get from logic to use the Apple keyboard sending midi. Is this reachable within MAX? Or that should be a Codewarrior project involving OMS?
Good news! CN1 is connected to the flat flex connector!, maybe it was the connector for the non-backlit model.
At this point, I think I will make a new cable using very thin wire, the same I use to repair traces on logic boards.
then put all of the wires in a loom and route it to the display.
Soon I will start making the pin-mapping for both ends, I'll let you know!
At this point, I think I will make a new cable using very thin wire, the same I use to repair traces on logic boards.
then put all of the wires in a loom and route it to the display.
Soon I will start making the pin-mapping for both ends, I'll let you know!
http://web.archive.org/web/20000816175421/http://www.opcode.com/products/max/
looks like opcode was distributing max aswell
looks like opcode was distributing max aswell
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For example. I would like to have an app like the piano keyboard you get from logic to use the Apple keyboard sending midi. Is this reachable within MAX?
im not familiar with Logic...do you mean something like this?
...ok i see. well tell me how it works. configuring keys for dynamics/velocity and octaves is easy.
If you want the connector from a display with the cable I have a set. It would give you a head start. I even have spare mobos, I can probably pull the connector from a mobo. I dont think shipping will be all that much since it will be a pretty small package. It just make take a long time! Not sure how much of a rush you are in to complete it.
Also I am not familiar with the backlit models. Im not sure if there is a spot on the mainboard for a connector for this cable.
Also I am not familiar with the backlit models. Im not sure if there is a spot on the mainboard for a connector for this cable.
i have 2 smaller midi keyboards that fit nicely next to a real keyboard
the pcr-30 by edirol
and the mk-225c by evolution (similar to mk-425c)
highly reccommended!
the pcr-30 by edirol
and the mk-225c by evolution (similar to mk-425c)
highly reccommended!
Quote
Can you tell us the process you made to achieve that?
Is that born in MAX with pluggo's Plugmaker or a CodeWarrior app? I can't test nor open sit files at this time...
Please, don't answer only here. I made a separate post for your StandalonePiano
any maxpatch can be turned into an app first saving it as a "collective", then using "applicationinstaller" that lives in the max/msp folder - which i am sure you have installed by now
see the attached pdf tuturial chapter "collectives"
oops...now i dont know how to move this post to your new thread
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug08/articles/max5.htm
heres a more recent article on max
i think max is now (shortly after this article been)
100% aimed at ableton live!
having been renamed max for live
yes i was right, heres a link:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb10/articles/maxforlive.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may10/articles/livetech_0510.htm
its funny
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/monome.htm (controller similar to tenori-on)
looking at this article u can tell they still retain their taste for MAC OS 9 Fonts !!!!!
when they programmed this monome controller, i saw this screen and i was like.. mac os 9???
in fact the whole world wide web had this look in 2001-2002-2003
i miss this:)
heres a more recent article on max
i think max is now (shortly after this article been)
100% aimed at ableton live!
having been renamed max for live
yes i was right, heres a link:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb10/articles/maxforlive.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may10/articles/livetech_0510.htm
its funny
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep08/articles/monome.htm (controller similar to tenori-on)
looking at this article u can tell they still retain their taste for MAC OS 9 Fonts !!!!!
when they programmed this monome controller, i saw this screen and i was like.. mac os 9???
in fact the whole world wide web had this look in 2001-2002-2003
i miss this:)
Hmmmm....
So the backlight cables route into the flex ribbon also? Well if you think the non-backlit cable will at least get you most of the way there let me know if you want it. Looks like you would still have to run some wires anyway for the power parts of the backlighting.
So the backlight cables route into the flex ribbon also? Well if you think the non-backlit cable will at least get you most of the way there let me know if you want it. Looks like you would still have to run some wires anyway for the power parts of the backlighting.
pluggo has 2 dedicated hosts simply called "Pluggo" (for effects) and "Pluggo synth" (for vsti) made for loading vst-objects into the pluggo-environment. in PT these two dont work, because (as i picked up somewhere) PT dont allow plugins to open popup windows.
VST hosts also do not allow to open subwindows. for northpole or mda delay this is no problem, because oyu can learn their 7 parameters by heart, but i dont want to create imposcar patches blindly.
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so, my personal way of dealing with this is to create a different pluggo-object for every vst-object. this is kind of boring work and should be done with scripts but ive been too lazy to learn that. (maybe 110 knows how)
for how many different plug-ins do you do that? and do you need control over the parameters of the hosted VST?
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anyway, attached is an example: the "spectral_monkeyage_pi".
funny that you mention it. monkeyage and northpole were the two VSTs whhere i´ve built a VST to VST bridge for ... in order to make them stereo. lol.
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because the _pi-object looks up the spectral_monkeyage-vst everytime it opens. i use the vstplugins-folder in the max/msp folder itself.
i have never tried it but it should work to put those VST in the pluggo runtime folder, which is an unlimited, default runtime search path.
we will come back to this at a later point.
Yep, the flex cable carries both the backlight power and the video data: the two different types of signals are then split in two different cables, the one coming out of the blue plug goes to the motherboard and it's the same cable non-backlit portables use (with the difference, if I've understood the diagram correctly, that in the non-backlit the other side of the cable goes directly to the LCD assembly, with nothing in between), while the other goes to the inverter.
I'm not sure if we have the "motherboard-end" video cable, but I think we have!
The trouble here is that the two of them join in the same flex cable, so from what I've understood we should have two possibilities:
1) Reuse the flex connector on both sides (LCD and middle board) and connect a new flex cable. Since the cable actually splits in two, trag's idea to use two flex cables one next to the other sounds good and feasible, and it would have the benefit to avoid desoldering as much as possible. However, judging by the pic I'm not sure whether the flex cable goes into a plug in the middle-board, or is just part of the middle-board itself: in the first case a replacement would be easy, but in the second it'd become non-trivial.
2) Make use of CN1 header to solder a normal socket for a ribbon cable that carries both signals and then connect the cable to the middle-board by soldering each wire to its corresponding pin. This sounds like a lot of work, especially because we'd have to determine in some way which wire goes to which pin to avoid making the wrong connections; however, depending on how the middle-board is actually made (I haven't had a chance to see it in person, since I've directly delivered the portable to ferrix's place), it might be easier than adapting a flex cable on that end.
A third way that could be possible would be to reuse the two-flex idea of the first possibility, and then get a plug for each cable and solder that plug, running some wires, to the middle-board (that is in the case the flex cable is actually part of the middle-board, and not just inserted with a socket).
I'm not sure if we have the "motherboard-end" video cable, but I think we have!
The trouble here is that the two of them join in the same flex cable, so from what I've understood we should have two possibilities:
1) Reuse the flex connector on both sides (LCD and middle board) and connect a new flex cable. Since the cable actually splits in two, trag's idea to use two flex cables one next to the other sounds good and feasible, and it would have the benefit to avoid desoldering as much as possible. However, judging by the pic I'm not sure whether the flex cable goes into a plug in the middle-board, or is just part of the middle-board itself: in the first case a replacement would be easy, but in the second it'd become non-trivial.
2) Make use of CN1 header to solder a normal socket for a ribbon cable that carries both signals and then connect the cable to the middle-board by soldering each wire to its corresponding pin. This sounds like a lot of work, especially because we'd have to determine in some way which wire goes to which pin to avoid making the wrong connections; however, depending on how the middle-board is actually made (I haven't had a chance to see it in person, since I've directly delivered the portable to ferrix's place), it might be easier than adapting a flex cable on that end.
A third way that could be possible would be to reuse the two-flex idea of the first possibility, and then get a plug for each cable and solder that plug, running some wires, to the middle-board (that is in the case the flex cable is actually part of the middle-board, and not just inserted with a socket).
He bought it with a broken cable, it is a not-for-resale unit.
at this point, I think the best way is to solder a new cable (like a floppy drive cable) to the transition between the gray ribbon cable and the orange flat-flex, then solder that cable to CN1 on the display and on the inverter
Also, how do I test the logic board?, tried hooking up my bench power supply to the main battery, together with a brand new 9v secondary battery, but it shows no life...
the hard drive's rubber gasket is melted, so I am also looking for a cable adapter (or a good diagram)
Is the logic Board a Backlit or a Non-backlit model?
at this point, I think the best way is to solder a new cable (like a floppy drive cable) to the transition between the gray ribbon cable and the orange flat-flex, then solder that cable to CN1 on the display and on the inverter
Also, how do I test the logic board?, tried hooking up my bench power supply to the main battery, together with a brand new 9v secondary battery, but it shows no life...
the hard drive's rubber gasket is melted, so I am also looking for a cable adapter (or a good diagram)
Is the logic Board a Backlit or a Non-backlit model?
Which switches? There are three!
You have the programmer/reset switches on the side. Then you have the battery swap switch sort buried in the back. When the battery cover is removed, it switches power to the 9v so you can swap the battery without losing settings.
The thing is, the Portable is sensitive to amperage and voltage. Even though it a 6 volt cell, you may want to bump it up to 6.5/7 volt. You do not need the 9v since it only works when the switch is up. So supply power at battery terminals (2 amp should work) and push that switch in.
Then try pressing ad holding both the programer/reset switches a few times. Then the space bar to boot. This works for me to get them going.
Odds are though, you need a re-cap of the mobo. I am sending mine out next week to Uniserver for that service since a clean working board is so rare.
You have the programmer/reset switches on the side. Then you have the battery swap switch sort buried in the back. When the battery cover is removed, it switches power to the 9v so you can swap the battery without losing settings.
The thing is, the Portable is sensitive to amperage and voltage. Even though it a 6 volt cell, you may want to bump it up to 6.5/7 volt. You do not need the 9v since it only works when the switch is up. So supply power at battery terminals (2 amp should work) and push that switch in.
Then try pressing ad holding both the programer/reset switches a few times. Then the space bar to boot. This works for me to get them going.
Odds are though, you need a re-cap of the mobo. I am sending mine out next week to Uniserver for that service since a clean working board is so rare.
Genius Idea, love this machine!
EDIT: now the machine shows some signs of life, but there is still not chime.
when the current rises the floppy makes the typical "blip" noise, then it seems to reset again, check out the video, or download it from this post
PortableTest1.mov
for the moment, the hard drive is not connected
EDIT: now the machine shows some signs of life, but there is still not chime.
when the current rises the floppy makes the typical "blip" noise, then it seems to reset again, check out the video, or download it from this post
PortableTest1.mov
for the moment, the hard drive is not connected
Yep, we're done with the testing for the time being!
I know portables are not very happy to run from an external power source, especially when powered by higher wattage supplies (like the PB100 one) - if everything's ok nothing bad happens, but if some component has deteriorated, it can cause massive damage because there's little to none over-current protection.
Today we should compile an extensive list of all the caps that we need and proceed with the order! While waiting for them to arrive, we'll probably tackle the video cable rebuilding.
I know portables are not very happy to run from an external power source, especially when powered by higher wattage supplies (like the PB100 one) - if everything's ok nothing bad happens, but if some component has deteriorated, it can cause massive damage because there's little to none over-current protection.
Today we should compile an extensive list of all the caps that we need and proceed with the order! While waiting for them to arrive, we'll probably tackle the video cable rebuilding.
I have a backlit Portable, and the cable is torn such that the backlight doesn't work. It *did* work at one point, due to the presence of two patch wires, but I broke them loose while reinstalling the logic board, and now I'm clueless as to where they were supposed to go.
This is the only thing which prevents me from enjoying it, and it's very annoying.
Needless to say, I will be watching this thread very intently.
c
This is the only thing which prevents me from enjoying it, and it's very annoying.
Needless to say, I will be watching this thread very intently.
c
If you are interested, the backlight power/contro cables (just 4) are separate from the video/data cable, so you ca run just 4 wires separately from the backlight board to the inverter, which is what I will do.
Yesterday I swapped all of the capacitors except the axials. Once they arrive I'll let you know if the logic board is any good
Yesterday I swapped all of the capacitors except the axials. Once they arrive I'll let you know if the logic board is any good
nope, the only person that can really fix it is mike, techknight.
He spent at least a hundred hours making his own notes and mini schematics for the portable. both 5120 / 5126.
With those notes he was able to fix everyones dead portable boards.. and yup there was many of them.
there is a thread...
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/22080-mr-sherlock-techknight™-51205126-mac-portable-common-issu/
Update:
I made the replacement cable, but the system sill shown no signs of life, It doesn't matter if I plug the extra ram and backlight board.
In this PDF, I found that there are 4 dip switched on the board, is there a table of the various configurations? Mine are all in the ON position except number 2
I made the replacement cable, but the system sill shown no signs of life, It doesn't matter if I plug the extra ram and backlight board.
In this PDF, I found that there are 4 dip switched on the board, is there a table of the various configurations? Mine are all in the ON position except number 2
Hi all!
Summer is finally here, so ferrix has had some time to work on the portable.
You'll find the pictures of the cable he made attached to this post.
However, we still have two major problems here:
As always, we really appreciate your suggestions - we're not really experienced with portables, so any thought on this will be great!
Summer is finally here, so ferrix has had some time to work on the portable.
You'll find the pictures of the cable he made attached to this post.
However, we still have two major problems here:
- When the display is plugged in, the system doesn't even attempt to boot - we think there might be a short somewhere that we still haven't figured out, because current consumption goes up to 3A and triggers the CC led in the power supply.
- When the display is disconnected, the system actually attempts to boot: we can hear it chime successfully most of the times, but as soon as it chimes the current level drops and the system shuts down. However, this is not happening predictably: if we only leave the yellow cable (pic below) connected the system tries to boot, chimes and shuts down. If we also connect the red cable, current goes instantly to zero and the system dies - if it's chiming, that produces a sad mac chime.
As always, we really appreciate your suggestions - we're not really experienced with portables, so any thought on this will be great!
Tried to edit, but timed out - actually connecting the red cable just makes the mac die instantly with no particular sign. The sad mac is happening more in a casual way - most of the times the yellow cable brings to a nice and reassuring chime, but sometimes (just sometimes, there doesn't seem to be any correlation) it goes to sad mac chime in the process.
Any thoughts? Could it be a problem with current or voltage regulation? Something drawing too much power? Something else?
Any thoughts? Could it be a problem with current or voltage regulation? Something drawing too much power? Something else?
shorted SWIM IC. Replace it. if you get current crowbarring without the display, this IC is bad.
Pull it and check other surrounding ICs for overheating signs using the finger test. sometimes when the SWIM goes, it knocks out a number of them. including the group of them between the CPU and the GPU, and sometimes one of the buffer IC goes in the RAM section just above the -5V regulator.
If you get current/short issues with the display connected, you likely have the cable wired wrong, or the display itself is shorted, or more likely, the inverter itself.
The symptoms you describe with random power-offs after startup, is cap goo current leakage between vias near the comparator IC to the right of the two reset/NMI buttons.
Its rare, but sometimes if the cap goo was bad enough, it will leak through the inner layers of the board and cause issues like this. The only solution is to locate arbitrary resistances in the PCB that arnt normal, and bypass that by cutting/rerunning traces. Only fix....
Pull it and check other surrounding ICs for overheating signs using the finger test. sometimes when the SWIM goes, it knocks out a number of them. including the group of them between the CPU and the GPU, and sometimes one of the buffer IC goes in the RAM section just above the -5V regulator.
If you get current/short issues with the display connected, you likely have the cable wired wrong, or the display itself is shorted, or more likely, the inverter itself.
The symptoms you describe with random power-offs after startup, is cap goo current leakage between vias near the comparator IC to the right of the two reset/NMI buttons.
Its rare, but sometimes if the cap goo was bad enough, it will leak through the inner layers of the board and cause issues like this. The only solution is to locate arbitrary resistances in the PCB that arnt normal, and bypass that by cutting/rerunning traces. Only fix....
Thanks tech!
I'm not really sure about the SWIM chip, though, so I'm asking you a couple more questions: when you're talking about crowbar activation, what do you mean exactly?
What we're seeing here is this: when we turn on the portable and the video cable is disconnected, we almost always hear a good starting chime (a couple of times we obtained a death chime at a certain point for unknown reason). Current measurement seems "normal" at this point. There seems to be some noise coming from the floppy as if it was looking for a track, you know, the normal noise you hear from a good floppy drive every time you turn on a classic mac with no disk inserted and that happens even before the chime.
After the chime is completed, current level drops to 0A and the system shuts down.
When the display cable is connected instead, we hear a different kind of noise, which sounds more electrical (could this be the crowbar activation?), and we never hear the chime. Also with the display connected we observed a couple of times the CC light on the test power supply that we're using - that power supply is tolerant up to 3A, so there must be a short somewhere here.
Given this, how much is it likely that the SWIM chip is involved? I'm very very ignorant about this, but it would seem to me that if such chip is dead, we should never hear a good chime coming from the machine. I'm referring to your topic here about the issue, but it seems a different behavior. However you're the master about portable issues, so I'm totally dependent on your judgement on this!
We're going to see if there are broken traces or cap goo in the area nearby the reset buttons you mentioned.
I'm not really sure about the SWIM chip, though, so I'm asking you a couple more questions: when you're talking about crowbar activation, what do you mean exactly?
What we're seeing here is this: when we turn on the portable and the video cable is disconnected, we almost always hear a good starting chime (a couple of times we obtained a death chime at a certain point for unknown reason). Current measurement seems "normal" at this point. There seems to be some noise coming from the floppy as if it was looking for a track, you know, the normal noise you hear from a good floppy drive every time you turn on a classic mac with no disk inserted and that happens even before the chime.
After the chime is completed, current level drops to 0A and the system shuts down.
When the display cable is connected instead, we hear a different kind of noise, which sounds more electrical (could this be the crowbar activation?), and we never hear the chime. Also with the display connected we observed a couple of times the CC light on the test power supply that we're using - that power supply is tolerant up to 3A, so there must be a short somewhere here.
Given this, how much is it likely that the SWIM chip is involved? I'm very very ignorant about this, but it would seem to me that if such chip is dead, we should never hear a good chime coming from the machine. I'm referring to your topic here about the issue, but it seems a different behavior. However you're the master about portable issues, so I'm totally dependent on your judgement on this!
We're going to see if there are broken traces or cap goo in the area nearby the reset buttons you mentioned.
I don't have a heat pencil, so it's quite hard to remove SMD chips with just a soldering iron.
At this point I am thinking about getting a regular video cable (If it is possible to obtain one) and making the inverter cable, since they have nothing in common.
Because the system powers on completely only for a couple of seconds (and then it powers down again), it's quite hard to check if a chip is bad.
I kept powering on, unplugging the power cable, plugging it back and powering on again for 5 minutes , then I took a thermal picture using my Flir One thermal camera:
The only components that got slightly hotter than the rest are a those three TO220s and the sound chips.
The temperature range shown in the picture is from 23.7 °C to 32.0 °C.
The setup was very straightforward:
(in this picture the keyboard was moved to the other connector just for convenience. it doesn't matter where i plug it in)
no cards connected, just power, keyboard and speakers. The problem is still the same. sometimes it chimes, and the a couple of seconds later it turns off. doesn't matter if you press one of the keys again or if you press the restart/NMI switches, it stays off. You have to unplug the power and then plug it back in.
this works if you only give power to one side of the connector (ground seems to be in common), if you apply power to both or only to the other one, the system will show no signs of life.
is it possible to have a simple pinout of that connector? when i connect the plug from the case (the one that goes to the main battery and to the 9V one) the voltage on both red cables is the same: 6.5V when the safety switch is pressed and 9V when is depressed (while using a 9V battery and mu bench power supply hooked up to the main battery terminals
The problem lies in the display cable, I haven't made the inverter cable yet.
At this point I am thinking about getting a regular video cable (If it is possible to obtain one) and making the inverter cable, since they have nothing in common.
Because the system powers on completely only for a couple of seconds (and then it powers down again), it's quite hard to check if a chip is bad.
I kept powering on, unplugging the power cable, plugging it back and powering on again for 5 minutes , then I took a thermal picture using my Flir One thermal camera:
The only components that got slightly hotter than the rest are a those three TO220s and the sound chips.
The temperature range shown in the picture is from 23.7 °C to 32.0 °C.
The setup was very straightforward:
(in this picture the keyboard was moved to the other connector just for convenience. it doesn't matter where i plug it in)
no cards connected, just power, keyboard and speakers. The problem is still the same. sometimes it chimes, and the a couple of seconds later it turns off. doesn't matter if you press one of the keys again or if you press the restart/NMI switches, it stays off. You have to unplug the power and then plug it back in.
this works if you only give power to one side of the connector (ground seems to be in common), if you apply power to both or only to the other one, the system will show no signs of life.
is it possible to have a simple pinout of that connector? when i connect the plug from the case (the one that goes to the main battery and to the 9V one) the voltage on both red cables is the same: 6.5V when the safety switch is pressed and 9V when is depressed (while using a 9V battery and mu bench power supply hooked up to the main battery terminals
Hi Ferrix97,
I'm not sure why I've never noticed this thread but I have an upgraded 5120 non-backlit to backlit upgrade and a working cable. Is there some way I can help? Maybe a picture or some continuity testing? I had some pictures up here once with the cable and card. I'll see if I can find them.
Found the thread but the pictures are gone unfortunately. Is there a way to get them back?
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/21333-macintosh-portable-5120-with-backlight-upgrade/?hl=5120
I'm not sure why I've never noticed this thread but I have an upgraded 5120 non-backlit to backlit upgrade and a working cable. Is there some way I can help? Maybe a picture or some continuity testing? I had some pictures up here once with the cable and card. I'll see if I can find them.
Found the thread but the pictures are gone unfortunately. Is there a way to get them back?
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/21333-macintosh-portable-5120-with-backlight-upgrade/?hl=5120
That is great!, thanks!
the best thing you could do is to make a table showing which pin of the Logic board adapter plug (the blue bit that goes from the white flat cable to the orange cable, first pic below) goes to which pin of the display (second pic below, the empty CN1).
before making the replacement cable, I took a photo of that plug and tired to match each of the "joints" with the corresponding number on the display (i wrote them on the silver solder joints). I think I did a mistake somewhere, but without a working cable I'm stuck.
right now I only need the video data, backlight should be easier.
essentially a table showing the connection from here
to here, CN1
the best thing you could do is to make a table showing which pin of the Logic board adapter plug (the blue bit that goes from the white flat cable to the orange cable, first pic below) goes to which pin of the display (second pic below, the empty CN1).
before making the replacement cable, I took a photo of that plug and tired to match each of the "joints" with the corresponding number on the display (i wrote them on the silver solder joints). I think I did a mistake somewhere, but without a working cable I'm stuck.
right now I only need the video data, backlight should be easier.
essentially a table showing the connection from here
to here, CN1
Will do but I may not be able to get to it until Sunday at the latest. Are you sure CN1 lines up with the white flat ribbon connector on picture 2? From what can be seen in that picture, it doesn't look like it but it is hard to tell from the picture. Did you try to mark the pins in pic1 to the white connector in pic 2 first?
Great, thanks!
the connections between the flat cable connector and CN1 do match, the numbering is the same,
because CN1 is designed for another type of cable (flat ribbon), it has the even numbered pins on one side and the odd numbered pins on the other. the first and last two numbers are written on the silkscreen of the PCB
If i remember correctly, there were two o three pins that didn't go anywhere, on both connector. there wasn't continuity between the two pins on the two connectors
the connections between the flat cable connector and CN1 do match, the numbering is the same,
because CN1 is designed for another type of cable (flat ribbon), it has the even numbered pins on one side and the odd numbered pins on the other. the first and last two numbers are written on the silkscreen of the PCB
If i remember correctly, there were two o three pins that didn't go anywhere, on both connector. there wasn't continuity between the two pins on the two connectors
Just saw the video. I'm not sure you're waiting long enough for it to actually start up. I haven't done any timing but it seem to take a good 30 seconds for things to come to life and I'm not sure if you hooked up the backlight but it doesn't come on when the screen goes black on start up. It doesn't turn on until almost partial boot up. I would say it take 5 or 10 seconds just to hear the hard drive come on.
Are you hearing this, at all? It does look like normal start up until you remove power.
When you get the start up beep, wait at least 30 seconds. Mine looks dead until it springs to life and the backlight is not on until then.
There's also a creaking sound, what is that?
Edit: for clarity, I mean "comes to life" AFTER the screen goes black and clears. It's an old computer and it needs a little extra time to get moving
Are you hearing this, at all? It does look like normal start up until you remove power.
When you get the start up beep, wait at least 30 seconds. Mine looks dead until it springs to life and the backlight is not on until then.
There's also a creaking sound, what is that?
Edit: for clarity, I mean "comes to life" AFTER the screen goes black and clears. It's an old computer and it needs a little extra time to get moving
the creaking sound was produced only after the sad mac. i don't know why.
currently the backlight is non connected, I haven't made the cable yet (a I guess I'll need you help for that)
right now I have no drives connected to it. after the screen clears, the current drops from 0.6A to 0.1A, which seems a bit low.
I left it there for a couple of minutes, nothing...
EDIT: after waiting, unplugging, rebooting... it finally decided to stay on the back screen after the chime. after a while the display started fading, so i hit the reset button and the display turned black again, current was hovering at about 0.8A.
at this point I heard a loud POP! coming from my instrument rack, maybe one of the capacitors inside my bench power supply decided to blow. I was recording a video when that happened. I may upload it later...
EDIT 2: whatever blew it was not involved in the portable setup, my power supply is fine (the filter cap is a bit dry, tho) and the portable seems to show the same problem, but now the black screen does not go away immeditely
currently the backlight is non connected, I haven't made the cable yet (a I guess I'll need you help for that)
right now I have no drives connected to it. after the screen clears, the current drops from 0.6A to 0.1A, which seems a bit low.
I left it there for a couple of minutes, nothing...
EDIT: after waiting, unplugging, rebooting... it finally decided to stay on the back screen after the chime. after a while the display started fading, so i hit the reset button and the display turned black again, current was hovering at about 0.8A.
at this point I heard a loud POP! coming from my instrument rack, maybe one of the capacitors inside my bench power supply decided to blow. I was recording a video when that happened. I may upload it later...
EDIT 2: whatever blew it was not involved in the portable setup, my power supply is fine (the filter cap is a bit dry, tho) and the portable seems to show the same problem, but now the black screen does not go away immeditely
I am going on the assumption that you would have previously fried something if there was a short in your Portable motherboard/display. Hopefully your bench power supply POP was a coincidence.
I am taking a guess at this but I could see the difference in amperage when the screen goes out because it's drawing no current and the the spike to 0.6A you are seeing is the display firing up and then going dim. I'm not sure if 0.1A is normal for just the motherboard. Someone else will have to chime in here.
Now that you have the cable properly doe, is there any difference if you disconnect it? If it's soldered, it will be hard to do but just checking.
I am taking a guess at this but I could see the difference in amperage when the screen goes out because it's drawing no current and the the spike to 0.6A you are seeing is the display firing up and then going dim. I'm not sure if 0.1A is normal for just the motherboard. Someone else will have to chime in here.
Now that you have the cable properly doe, is there any difference if you disconnect it? If it's soldered, it will be hard to do but just checking.
There is no difference in powering the system with or without the cable.
when the system is completely off, it draws almost next to nothing (like 0.02A), when i push both the reset and NMI buttons, it goes to 0.4A, when is showing something on the display is between 0.4 and 0.7A
EDIT: here is the video
when the system is completely off, it draws almost next to nothing (like 0.02A), when i push both the reset and NMI buttons, it goes to 0.4A, when is showing something on the display is between 0.4 and 0.7A
EDIT: here is the video
The hybrids go bad these units and will exert the same symptoms you see.
this is AFTER a recap BTW.
A quick fix is to put a 1 Meg ohm resistor between pins 18 and 16.
Also, there are pull-up resistors ,and 1 UF capacitors that attach to both the NMI and Reset buttons, if they go bad, or if there are broken traces there, the same thing will happen.
this is AFTER a recap BTW.
A quick fix is to put a 1 Meg ohm resistor between pins 18 and 16.
Also, there are pull-up resistors ,and 1 UF capacitors that attach to both the NMI and Reset buttons, if they go bad, or if there are broken traces there, the same thing will happen.
FYI, I uploaded a quick video (using my phone) so the audio isn't great but hopefully, you can hear when it starts up.
https://youtu.be/Rd1oRmYyWbI
https://youtu.be/Rd1oRmYyWbI
Well time to break out the O-Scope and see whats going on with the LTC1040CN.
Also, please verify that the RESET/NMI buttons are connected to the pull-ups, and that the pull ups are connected to VCC. And make sure the caps are connected to them as well, And make sure the two buttons also ring back to the MISC GLU.
Also, please verify that the RESET/NMI buttons are connected to the pull-ups, and that the pull ups are connected to VCC. And make sure the caps are connected to them as well, And make sure the two buttons also ring back to the MISC GLU.
Do you have a schematic for it? just to locate the two GLU pins.
also, which pins (on the LTC1040CN) should I probe?
EDIT: the switches are indeed connected to the two pull-up resistors (on the bottom of the PCB), those resistor are connected to VCC (+5V?, I checked continuity using the VCC pin on a 74-series logic chip present on the board).
The caps are connected to the switches (for debouncing?),
if I got the numbering right, reset goes to the last pin of the GLU, while NMI is on pin 26.
also, which pins (on the LTC1040CN) should I probe?
EDIT: the switches are indeed connected to the two pull-up resistors (on the bottom of the PCB), those resistor are connected to VCC (+5V?, I checked continuity using the VCC pin on a 74-series logic chip present on the board).
The caps are connected to the switches (for debouncing?),
if I got the numbering right, reset goes to the last pin of the GLU, while NMI is on pin 26.
Ok guys, I've got a great news to share with you: my portable now boots!
Well, sort of. It's still got problems, but we've managed to get something out of it.
Ferrix has managed to get his hands on another portable that exhibits a problem quite similar to mine, so he thought he could probably get somewhere by comparing and swapping components between the two. Here are his results:
1) The portable fires up smoothly and pretty much consistently if it's overvoltaged: apparently putting 7.46V directly on the battery connector manages to keep it alive and happy, but if the voltage is lower it doesn't work.
2) The portable dislikes any additional load on the rails: in order to have a boot, he needed to disconnect both the hard drive and the internal floppy drive; even if just the floppy drive is connected, each attempt to access it results in an almost instant reboot.
Number 1+2 suggests to me there must be something wrong somewhere in the voltage regulation area / power supply circuitry.
3) If both hard drive and floppy drive are disconnected, the system boots but the display shows something like this.
Here's the cursor:
Here's the blinking floppy:
Here's the video of it booting from a zip drive: http://v8.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=nfmd5l&s=8
4) If the display is also swapped with the one coming from the other portable, we get a nice and solid picture:
All this makes me think that:
1) The logic board itself must be working ok: probably no rotten traces or anything, at least not concerning any "major" part of the system.
2) Something must be wrong with the power circuitry, since it needs an overvoltage to get going.
3) Either the video cable still has something wrong, or the display itself is fried.
So, what do you think? Where should we go from here?
Thanks!
Well, sort of. It's still got problems, but we've managed to get something out of it.
Ferrix has managed to get his hands on another portable that exhibits a problem quite similar to mine, so he thought he could probably get somewhere by comparing and swapping components between the two. Here are his results:
1) The portable fires up smoothly and pretty much consistently if it's overvoltaged: apparently putting 7.46V directly on the battery connector manages to keep it alive and happy, but if the voltage is lower it doesn't work.
2) The portable dislikes any additional load on the rails: in order to have a boot, he needed to disconnect both the hard drive and the internal floppy drive; even if just the floppy drive is connected, each attempt to access it results in an almost instant reboot.
Number 1+2 suggests to me there must be something wrong somewhere in the voltage regulation area / power supply circuitry.
3) If both hard drive and floppy drive are disconnected, the system boots but the display shows something like this.
Here's the cursor:
Here's the blinking floppy:
Here's the video of it booting from a zip drive: http://v8.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=nfmd5l&s=8
4) If the display is also swapped with the one coming from the other portable, we get a nice and solid picture:
All this makes me think that:
1) The logic board itself must be working ok: probably no rotten traces or anything, at least not concerning any "major" part of the system.
2) Something must be wrong with the power circuitry, since it needs an overvoltage to get going.
3) Either the video cable still has something wrong, or the display itself is fried.
So, what do you think? Where should we go from here?
Thanks!
Meter the 5V rail feeding the system, while adjusting your input voltage. A variable DC Bench supply would be preferable here.
that 5V rail should be a rock solid 5.2VDC even down to 6.3V input voltage. If it is not, then something is wrong with the Hybrid, or the MOSFET itself is bad. it is a P-Channel mosfet.
the LTC1040 forms a window comparator, that when the input voltage drops below 5.9V, it will lock out the 5V regulator so it falls to 0v. The other side of the comparator is used to tell the system whether the battery is in a charge state, or a discharge state. the window comparator senses the AC adapter voltage versus the battery voltage via a sense resistor, and will latch on the next oscillator pulse (internal to the LTC1040CN), and switch on the charging circuit. or not.
There is a small 8pin op-amp in the top left corner of the hybrid, its responsible for regulating the 5V rail. its error output feeds the MOSFET itself. if the MOSFET is bad, and the R(ds) is too high, it wont bring the voltage up high enough. Likewise if there is something bad on the hybrid, the same thing happens.
From my experience, the hybrids that exhibits the most problems are the ones that look "discolored" from tons of cap goo getting into the ceramic substrate. The most common thing is, the Goo changes the cross-conduction between traces, and creates parasitic resistors that screw things up. This cannot be fixed for the most part, However, the closest thing to the caps is the resistor/capacitor network that forms the latching oscillator for the LTC1040. When the oscillator does not run, it will cause the portable to have random no-power at all symptoms, or no-charging indicator.
Anywhere from 1Meg to 100K I have been able to get the oscillator started again. But if the damage is extensive, it may have affected other circuits as well.
The only fix is to reverse-engineer the Hybrid and create a new PCB with equivalent parts.
that 5V rail should be a rock solid 5.2VDC even down to 6.3V input voltage. If it is not, then something is wrong with the Hybrid, or the MOSFET itself is bad. it is a P-Channel mosfet.
the LTC1040 forms a window comparator, that when the input voltage drops below 5.9V, it will lock out the 5V regulator so it falls to 0v. The other side of the comparator is used to tell the system whether the battery is in a charge state, or a discharge state. the window comparator senses the AC adapter voltage versus the battery voltage via a sense resistor, and will latch on the next oscillator pulse (internal to the LTC1040CN), and switch on the charging circuit. or not.
There is a small 8pin op-amp in the top left corner of the hybrid, its responsible for regulating the 5V rail. its error output feeds the MOSFET itself. if the MOSFET is bad, and the R(ds) is too high, it wont bring the voltage up high enough. Likewise if there is something bad on the hybrid, the same thing happens.
From my experience, the hybrids that exhibits the most problems are the ones that look "discolored" from tons of cap goo getting into the ceramic substrate. The most common thing is, the Goo changes the cross-conduction between traces, and creates parasitic resistors that screw things up. This cannot be fixed for the most part, However, the closest thing to the caps is the resistor/capacitor network that forms the latching oscillator for the LTC1040. When the oscillator does not run, it will cause the portable to have random no-power at all symptoms, or no-charging indicator.
Anywhere from 1Meg to 100K I have been able to get the oscillator started again. But if the damage is extensive, it may have affected other circuits as well.
The only fix is to reverse-engineer the Hybrid and create a new PCB with equivalent parts.